Do you believe in “falling away” from GRACE?

Do you believe in “falling away” from GRACE?
Posted by Ricky Grimsley in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

Do any of you believe that the “falling away” of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the rapture?

98 Comments

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Michael Postlethwait

    No in fact, given the context, it is likely that Paul’s reference is primarily related to the current situation in Paul’s day, and not some time in the distant future.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    John Lathrop

    No, not the rapture.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Stan Wayne

    “That day” is future. But it is apostasy.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    John Lathrop

    Apostasy is what the falling away is.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Michael Postlethwait

    Stan, if that day is future as you suggest, then why does Paul talk about this in the context of a warning to Timothy? In the context of a pastoral epistle written to a young protégé, it does not make sense to suggest that Paul is referring to events that are not already occurring in the current situation. Again, examine the verses surrounding these passages and it will become obvious that Paul is concerned that Timothy and his parishioners do not fall trap to the evils that are already at work in Paul’s day. Remember also that the apostle Peter in his Pentecost sermon referred to the current time as the last days.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Robert Paul Gardner

    The falling away is the apostasy that will eventually culminate in the Great harlot of Revelation 17. That is what I think 2 Thess 2:3 is taking about. I do believe in the Rapture though.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    I believe in the rapture also but i have seen several pre-trib preachers using “apostacia” as a great departure instead of a great apostasy.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    John Conger

    the falling away is the zombie apocalypse

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Charles W Carpenter

    Absolutely not. The falling away is people that start following the Lord and then turn their back on him and walk away.

  • Reply April 1, 2016

    Tim Renneberg

    I thought Paul was writing to the Thessalonian church, not to his young protégé Timothy… and the context does seem to be a future coming of the “lawless one.”

  • Reply April 8, 2016

    Violy Flores

    Violy Flores liked this on Facebook.

  • Reply April 16, 2016

    Varnel Watson

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Charles Page has long argued ( unsuccessfully ) in this group that once saved you are forever secured for salvation. This would have not been that big of a deal if we did not hear messages on eternal security from leading ministers within his denomination of choice. So the question must be asked again – can you be a true Pentecostal and an eternally secured chosen-frozen calvinist at the same time? This is WHY AM I NOT A CALVINIST again http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist-again-pentecostal-christian/ Ricky Grimsley John Conger

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    It sure seems like incompatible belief systems. However, if charles keeps posting pics of ministers and saying things about their wives…he might be predestinated to some “laying on of hands” when he angers the wrong one.

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Jon Ray

    Ricky Grimsley Charles Many Calvinists teach what appears to be the Bible – for example John 6:39 “I shall lose none” which has absolutely nothing to do with election, predestination or eternal security. John himself explains in ch. 18:9 what this text refers to all while Jude has being lost for the Kingdom by his own will and Peter is denying Jesus out of his fear. Many Calvinists teach what appears to be the Bible but for what is worth most of Calvinism is not even the Bible. For this reason I do not believe that there could be Pentecostal Calvinists Henry Volk David Rollings Except if all Calvinists claim to be predestined not to be Pentecostal – at which I rest my case!

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Henry Volk

    I’d look up Calvinist Batman (he’s a really blogger/podcaster). He’s a Pentecostal Calvinist.

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Jon Ray

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Most people teach what they think the bible says. We just disagree on some. We give the the Calvinists a hard time (deservedly) but all most all of you believe in a future completely foreknown by God. If the the future is foreknown then its unchangeable (if you believe God cant learn)? The only difference between calvinism and Arminianism is whether God decreed it all or saw it all in advance and made it anyway. No Difference. Imo

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Tim Renneberg

    I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination,but, which part of TULIP is at odds with the Pentecostal distinctive?

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Carl Murphy

    May I ask was Pharaoh and Judas predestined. How can God know all and you not be. David said God knew his comings and going and the words of his mouth before his tongue formed them. Paul said “He will have mercy on those that he will have mercy” he went on to say who is man to challenge God. These questions I have had for 50+ years, I have yet to hear an answer without if ands and buts, that remotely make sense

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    God knows all that can be known. The future does not exist. To believe that God knew every minor detail before the world began contradicts every scripture that says God repented, or the ones that say “now i know” etc.

  • Reply June 26, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    The bible days god raised pharoah up to do what he did.

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Therefore he was predestined?

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      I look at these things from a 1 kings 22 point of view. God put it in the heart of moses to deliver israel 40 years before he actually did it at least. The children of israel werent ready to go even though it was time. God. God certailnly moved the chess pieces around but the details werent planned 400 years in advance and certainly not from before creation. Imo

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Drew Banacos

    Calvinism is more than just the TULIP. Calvinism seems to be at odds with the Pentecostal conviction that healing is provided for all in the atonement (literally anyone in Christ has the opportunity to be healed; Calvinism might say God is using your disease to glorify himself which Pentecostals of the holiness strand would stay away from). The problem is there are more than one Pentecostal traditions and systems of theology. They all tend to hold in common tongues in connection with Spirit baptism but with slight nuances.

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    David Rollings

    I am told that I can not believe in Calvinism and be a Pentecostal, well I am not too concerned about labels but I am Reforemed in my theology and I believe that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. I also believe in the Baptism of the Holy nspirit. I lead with my wife the prayer ministry team in our local church. Perhaps you would say I am just a charismatic, thats fine by me. For further details on my theology see my blog pneumaandlogos.com.

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    John Conger

    Why do you pay if we have no choice and the future is written? Other than simply drawing closer to God what else is there to pray about? Kinda gotta ignore all the scriptures about asking for things

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      What do you pay?

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      John Conger

      Pray

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Yet you have to kinda ignore the other half like those he fore knew he predestined. Or he hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Or how he knew Rahab had a red cord or that Joshua and Caleb would tell a different story tha the other 10

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Explain Romans chapter nine. What do you think Paul is saying?

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    I put “if” in my bible word search. 1420 times. I guess they were mistranslated?

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    To a certain extent we all accept and allow for God’s total control if free will is not excluded. But Calvinistic TULIP is much more than that. The so claimed total depravity does not allow for any human choice or any human agent within the decision making process at all.

    I understand if you are Pentecostal and Wesleyan as Stan Wayne or Anglican as William DeArteaga or even free-will Baptist. But when it comes to hard-core ultra Calvinism there is absolutely no room for (1) free will, (2) sanctification, (3) falling-a-way and restoration which leaves no room for true Pentecostal soteriology or ecclesiology. I think it was Charles Page who asked if the Concept of Progressive Sanctification brought into The Pentecostal Church by Pentecostal Calvinists ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/was-progressive-sanctification-introduced-by-pentecostal-calvinists/

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Carl Murphy

    Yet still no answer about Pharaoh or Judas. How about Rahab? Joshua and Caleb? We can argue this or that doctrine says this but that is no better than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I really don’t care who or what said this or that, I simply would like answer. One that you believe, not one you parrot

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    Pharoah and Judas were elect children of God who resisted God’s will.

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Yet did God know their hearts before the foundations of the earth?

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      Carl Murphy God’s election was unconditional – he did not choose them according to his omniscience

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Charles Page explain Romans Chapter nine please

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      No. Lol

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Exactly. I honestly believe that no one to any degree of certainty has the answers

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      Only elect are on pottery wheel

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      Carl -every calvinism claims to know

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      As does every arminian. Frankly I do not believe either know to their own satisfaction. Otherwise they would quit trying to prove their point, to themselves

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Like I said: “To a certain extent we all accept and allow for God’s total control if free will is not excluded.” Do you believe in free-will, sanctification, falling away from grace? These are all Pentecostal teachings

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      Which brings up another question,?which sin empties your supply of grace. Like the song, grace, grace, God’s grace. Grace to cover all my sins? When you say “to a certain extent we allow” who are we to question God? Paul asked the same question. He also said God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. “If we allow” are we not putting ourselves before God?

      To answer your specific questions,?do I believe in free will? I am ambivalent. Sanctification is merely the path to holiness and simply a theological term for that path. I believe in walking away from grace, not what seems to be the Pentecostal definition of one in repented sin dooms you to hell. I believe you either truly accepted Jesus as your personal savior and that you deny, follow and die as in deny yourself, follow Christ and die to the things of the world (which is my definition of sanctification) I believe that simply going to the altar and mumbling a few words is not salvation. Salvation is a life changing event. It is the acceptance of Jesus as a propitiation of our sins, which you believe or don’t believe. You can’t truly believe it today, not tomorrow but the next day you must be “saved” again. That is ridiculous. You might repent, you might rededicate but you accept Jesus or you don’t. I was raised in the AG I am a graduate of what was South Eastern Bible College. I have taken seminary classes, and taking one now and I can tell you I have more questions than answers. Being quite a bit older than you I was taught to question a thesis put forth, not to accept it because some guy held in high esteem by others said it, after all they too are mere men, so indoor readily accept an answer because so and so in his book entitled who cares said it. I prefer the guidance of the Spirit. I have questions, I like frank discussion and input from what others truly believe, not what they read in a book and parrot back. I had a Ph.D based on conclusions drawn by my examination not the parroting of someone else’s conclusion. So I would appreciate a straight forward answer. Not “this is Pentecostal tradition” therefore I am Pentecostal and I dare not stray. But what you, personally think. Not what Dr. Know it all wrote. For I too have an alphabet behind my name and I know I am not the smartest guy nor have the definitive answer. So tell me, what conclusions have you personally draw to answer the questions on the three people I mentioned, whether God knows everything and therefore he knows what your reactions will be or does he not know?

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    new birth is according to the will of God, monergistic and sanctification is by cooperative wills of man and God, synergistic.

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Most Calvinists look at Judas and Adam as a completely different category TULIP is not concerned with. Did Adam have free will? Was Adam predestined to hell? Yes and no!

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    I dont believe that Judas was predestined before the foundation of the world but certainly Jesus picked him knowing his character picked a thief on purpose

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      So he knew his character so he knew what Judas would do, he fore knew. Now how does that conflict with predestined?

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Predestined from two days ago is one thing….being predestined from before you were born or even before the world began to go to hell….thats another.

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Carl Murphy

      No that’s semantics

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Jesus knew the scriptures. How many times did jesus do something “so the scriptures might be fulfilled”. Picking judas was no exception.

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    we were robots following sin and trespasses but when we are born again we are entirely free to follow or reject Christ. That is the freedom found in Christ.

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Carl Murphy

    But what led us to salvation? Who put the message in front of us, how did we get to the place the message was given? By chance are we saved?

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    God does all that but we still can choose to resist if he lets us. Lol

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      Only if we are regenerate

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Everything starts withs Gods grace.

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      congruous merit

    • Reply June 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Hebrews 4:2 KJVS
      [2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it .

  • Reply June 27, 2016

    Carl Murphy

    Honestly the answer will have to come in the by and by

  • Reply July 4, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Of course YES

  • Reply January 29, 2019

    Diane Shearer

    Galatians 5:4
    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    ^^^ if there were no such thing the Bible would never have mentioned it. No, I do not believe it is the rapture… it is going back under the law for justification.

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Jeff Latham

    If one reads the bible and believes what one reads, then yes!

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    seems like lots of people have fallen away Joe Absher

    • Reply January 30, 2019

      Joe Absher

      I haven’t heard “married to the backslider” sermon in awhile.

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Then it is time to work on getting them back in the flock along with a whole lot of new converts.

    My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
    (James 5)
    But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Soussi Soussi

    Either u believe science or fiction. No other way ..

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Michelle Neff

    Yes

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Barbara Ann Wolfe

    How do you know where the line is? How far is too far? Is there a set amount of sin? Did Jesus give any “rules” on when you have lost it?

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Joe Absher

    If you have to ask you’ve gone to far

    • Reply January 30, 2019

      Barbara Ann Wolfe

      Joe Absher that the measure you use? So each person would be different?

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Barbara Ann Wolfe

    Does the Bible actually give a measure?

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Joe Absher

    2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV — Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

  • Reply January 30, 2019

    Nora Neel-Toney

    Yes

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Daniel J Hesse

    Turning away?

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Kenneth W Phelps

    Turning Away Is A Better Way To Say It For No Man Can Take Us Away From GOD But We Can Take Ourselves Out Of His Hands

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Alan Smith

    Wouldn’t the measure of grace be found in the definition of what grace is?
    Unmerited favor
    Think about it

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Now grace is…

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Joe Absher

    Grace is far more than forgiveness of sin. Which is where most use the term ‘unmerited favor’ and stop. But grace is soo much more…

    “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
    – Romans 5:1,2

    • Reply February 2, 2019

      Alan Smith

      You are correct, unmerited favor is where IT ALL begins, and HE justifies us!
      You just confirmed my point even more. Thank you, sir

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Nick Mihalik

    Nope- I do believe in willful disobedience to God, which distances ourselves from His Grace.

  • Reply January 31, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Alan Smith Jude 24 comes into mind right here

    • Reply February 1, 2019

      Alan Smith

      Yes, it does!
      But goes against EVERYTHING Pentecostals believe.

    • Reply February 1, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      naah – not really and not ALL Pentecostals

    • Reply February 2, 2019

      Alan Smith

      Troy Day you don’t believe?

    • Reply February 2, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I dont believe it goes against EVERYTHING

  • Reply February 1, 2019

    Melody Cates Kinzer

    And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

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