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Ricky Grimsley | PentecostalTheology.com
Do any of you believe that the “falling away” of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the rapture?
Michael Postlethwait
No in fact, given the context, it is likely that Paul’s reference is primarily related to the current situation in Paul’s day, and not some time in the distant future.
John Lathrop
No, not the rapture.
Stan Wayne
“That day” is future. But it is apostasy.
John Lathrop
Apostasy is what the falling away is.
Michael Postlethwait
Stan, if that day is future as you suggest, then why does Paul talk about this in the context of a warning to Timothy? In the context of a pastoral epistle written to a young protégé, it does not make sense to suggest that Paul is referring to events that are not already occurring in the current situation. Again, examine the verses surrounding these passages and it will become obvious that Paul is concerned that Timothy and his parishioners do not fall trap to the evils that are already at work in Paul’s day. Remember also that the apostle Peter in his Pentecost sermon referred to the current time as the last days.
Robert Paul Gardner
The falling away is the apostasy that will eventually culminate in the Great harlot of Revelation 17. That is what I think 2 Thess 2:3 is taking about. I do believe in the Rapture though.
Ricky Grimsley
I believe in the rapture also but i have seen several pre-trib preachers using “apostacia” as a great departure instead of a great apostasy.
John Conger
the falling away is the zombie apocalypse
Charles W Carpenter
Absolutely not. The falling away is people that start following the Lord and then turn their back on him and walk away.
Tim Renneberg
I thought Paul was writing to the Thessalonian church, not to his young protégé Timothy… and the context does seem to be a future coming of the “lawless one.”
Violy Flores
Violy Flores liked this on Facebook.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/modern-calvinism-is-not-biblical/
Varnel Watson
Charles Page has long argued ( unsuccessfully ) in this group that once saved you are forever secured for salvation. This would have not been that big of a deal if we did not hear messages on eternal security from leading ministers within his denomination of choice. So the question must be asked again – can you be a true Pentecostal and an eternally secured chosen-frozen calvinist at the same time? This is WHY AM I NOT A CALVINIST again http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist-again-pentecostal-christian/ Ricky Grimsley John Conger
Ricky Grimsley
It sure seems like incompatible belief systems. However, if charles keeps posting pics of ministers and saying things about their wives…he might be predestinated to some “laying on of hands” when he angers the wrong one.
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley Charles Many Calvinists teach what appears to be the Bible – for example John 6:39 “I shall lose none” which has absolutely nothing to do with election, predestination or eternal security. John himself explains in ch. 18:9 what this text refers to all while Jude has being lost for the Kingdom by his own will and Peter is denying Jesus out of his fear. Many Calvinists teach what appears to be the Bible but for what is worth most of Calvinism is not even the Bible. For this reason I do not believe that there could be Pentecostal Calvinists Henry Volk David Rollings Except if all Calvinists claim to be predestined not to be Pentecostal – at which I rest my case!
Henry Volk
I’d look up Calvinist Batman (he’s a really blogger/podcaster). He’s a Pentecostal Calvinist.
Jon Ray
https://www.facebook.com/132574506822698/videos/798655756881233/
Ricky Grimsley
Most people teach what they think the bible says. We just disagree on some. We give the the Calvinists a hard time (deservedly) but all most all of you believe in a future completely foreknown by God. If the the future is foreknown then its unchangeable (if you believe God cant learn)? The only difference between calvinism and Arminianism is whether God decreed it all or saw it all in advance and made it anyway. No Difference. Imo
Tim Renneberg
I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination,but, which part of TULIP is at odds with the Pentecostal distinctive?
Carl Murphy
May I ask was Pharaoh and Judas predestined. How can God know all and you not be. David said God knew his comings and going and the words of his mouth before his tongue formed them. Paul said “He will have mercy on those that he will have mercy” he went on to say who is man to challenge God. These questions I have had for 50+ years, I have yet to hear an answer without if ands and buts, that remotely make sense
Ricky Grimsley
God knows all that can be known. The future does not exist. To believe that God knew every minor detail before the world began contradicts every scripture that says God repented, or the ones that say “now i know” etc.
Ricky Grimsley
The bible days god raised pharoah up to do what he did.
Carl Murphy
Therefore he was predestined?
Ricky Grimsley
I look at these things from a 1 kings 22 point of view. God put it in the heart of moses to deliver israel 40 years before he actually did it at least. The children of israel werent ready to go even though it was time. God. God certailnly moved the chess pieces around but the details werent planned 400 years in advance and certainly not from before creation. Imo
Drew Banacos
Calvinism is more than just the TULIP. Calvinism seems to be at odds with the Pentecostal conviction that healing is provided for all in the atonement (literally anyone in Christ has the opportunity to be healed; Calvinism might say God is using your disease to glorify himself which Pentecostals of the holiness strand would stay away from). The problem is there are more than one Pentecostal traditions and systems of theology. They all tend to hold in common tongues in connection with Spirit baptism but with slight nuances.
David Rollings
I am told that I can not believe in Calvinism and be a Pentecostal, well I am not too concerned about labels but I am Reforemed in my theology and I believe that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. I also believe in the Baptism of the Holy nspirit. I lead with my wife the prayer ministry team in our local church. Perhaps you would say I am just a charismatic, thats fine by me. For further details on my theology see my blog pneumaandlogos.com.
John Conger
Why do you pay if we have no choice and the future is written? Other than simply drawing closer to God what else is there to pray about? Kinda gotta ignore all the scriptures about asking for things
Carl Murphy
What do you pay?
John Conger
Pray
Carl Murphy
Yet you have to kinda ignore the other half like those he fore knew he predestined. Or he hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Or how he knew Rahab had a red cord or that Joshua and Caleb would tell a different story tha the other 10
Carl Murphy
Explain Romans chapter nine. What do you think Paul is saying?
Ricky Grimsley
I put “if” in my bible word search. 1420 times. I guess they were mistranslated?
Varnel Watson
To a certain extent we all accept and allow for God’s total control if free will is not excluded. But Calvinistic TULIP is much more than that. The so claimed total depravity does not allow for any human choice or any human agent within the decision making process at all.
I understand if you are Pentecostal and Wesleyan as Stan Wayne or Anglican as William DeArteaga or even free-will Baptist. But when it comes to hard-core ultra Calvinism there is absolutely no room for (1) free will, (2) sanctification, (3) falling-a-way and restoration which leaves no room for true Pentecostal soteriology or ecclesiology. I think it was Charles Page who asked if the Concept of Progressive Sanctification brought into The Pentecostal Church by Pentecostal Calvinists ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/was-progressive-sanctification-introduced-by-pentecostal-calvinists/
Carl Murphy
Yet still no answer about Pharaoh or Judas. How about Rahab? Joshua and Caleb? We can argue this or that doctrine says this but that is no better than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I really don’t care who or what said this or that, I simply would like answer. One that you believe, not one you parrot
Drew Banacos
I believe Pharoah hardened his own heart as well as it says in Exodus.
Carl Murphy
Drew Banacos I suggest you read Exodus 9:16 and Romans9:17
Drew Banacos
I have
Charles Page
Pharoah and Judas were elect children of God who resisted God’s will.
Carl Murphy
Yet did God know their hearts before the foundations of the earth?
Charles Page
Carl Murphy God’s election was unconditional – he did not choose them according to his omniscience
Carl Murphy
Charles Page explain Romans Chapter nine please
Charles Page
No. Lol
Carl Murphy
Exactly. I honestly believe that no one to any degree of certainty has the answers
Charles Page
Only elect are on pottery wheel
Charles Page
Carl -every calvinism claims to know
Carl Murphy
As does every arminian. Frankly I do not believe either know to their own satisfaction. Otherwise they would quit trying to prove their point, to themselves
Varnel Watson
Like I said: “To a certain extent we all accept and allow for God’s total control if free will is not excluded.” Do you believe in free-will, sanctification, falling away from grace? These are all Pentecostal teachings
Carl Murphy
Which brings up another question,?which sin empties your supply of grace. Like the song, grace, grace, God’s grace. Grace to cover all my sins? When you say “to a certain extent we allow” who are we to question God? Paul asked the same question. He also said God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. “If we allow” are we not putting ourselves before God?
To answer your specific questions,?do I believe in free will? I am ambivalent. Sanctification is merely the path to holiness and simply a theological term for that path. I believe in walking away from grace, not what seems to be the Pentecostal definition of one in repented sin dooms you to hell. I believe you either truly accepted Jesus as your personal savior and that you deny, follow and die as in deny yourself, follow Christ and die to the things of the world (which is my definition of sanctification) I believe that simply going to the altar and mumbling a few words is not salvation. Salvation is a life changing event. It is the acceptance of Jesus as a propitiation of our sins, which you believe or don’t believe. You can’t truly believe it today, not tomorrow but the next day you must be “saved” again. That is ridiculous. You might repent, you might rededicate but you accept Jesus or you don’t. I was raised in the AG I am a graduate of what was South Eastern Bible College. I have taken seminary classes, and taking one now and I can tell you I have more questions than answers. Being quite a bit older than you I was taught to question a thesis put forth, not to accept it because some guy held in high esteem by others said it, after all they too are mere men, so indoor readily accept an answer because so and so in his book entitled who cares said it. I prefer the guidance of the Spirit. I have questions, I like frank discussion and input from what others truly believe, not what they read in a book and parrot back. I had a Ph.D based on conclusions drawn by my examination not the parroting of someone else’s conclusion. So I would appreciate a straight forward answer. Not “this is Pentecostal tradition” therefore I am Pentecostal and I dare not stray. But what you, personally think. Not what Dr. Know it all wrote. For I too have an alphabet behind my name and I know I am not the smartest guy nor have the definitive answer. So tell me, what conclusions have you personally draw to answer the questions on the three people I mentioned, whether God knows everything and therefore he knows what your reactions will be or does he not know?
Charles Page
new birth is according to the will of God, monergistic and sanctification is by cooperative wills of man and God, synergistic.
Charles Page
you can loose your sanctification
Varnel Watson
Most Calvinists look at Judas and Adam as a completely different category TULIP is not concerned with. Did Adam have free will? Was Adam predestined to hell? Yes and no!
Carl Murphy
Please cite references
Ricky Grimsley
I dont believe that Judas was predestined before the foundation of the world but certainly Jesus picked him knowing his character picked a thief on purpose
Carl Murphy
So he knew his character so he knew what Judas would do, he fore knew. Now how does that conflict with predestined?
Ricky Grimsley
Predestined from two days ago is one thing….being predestined from before you were born or even before the world began to go to hell….thats another.
Carl Murphy
No that’s semantics
Ricky Grimsley
Jesus knew the scriptures. How many times did jesus do something “so the scriptures might be fulfilled”. Picking judas was no exception.
Charles Page
in that you are in agreement with the Calvinist!!
Ricky Grimsley
Wouldn’t the Calvinist say that jesus picked judas because of his sovereign decree from creation?
Charles Page
Ricky Grimsley Yes
John Conger
Ricky Grimsleyif you’re agreeing with Charles Pageyou should rethink things
Ricky Grimsley
We dont agree. Jesus wasnt robot.
Jon Ray
Charles Page
we were robots following sin and trespasses but when we are born again we are entirely free to follow or reject Christ. That is the freedom found in Christ.
Carl Murphy
But what led us to salvation? Who put the message in front of us, how did we get to the place the message was given? By chance are we saved?
Ricky Grimsley
God does all that but we still can choose to resist if he lets us. Lol
Charles Page
Only if we are regenerate
Ricky Grimsley
Everything starts withs Gods grace.
Charles Page
congruous merit
Ricky Grimsley
Hebrews 4:2 KJVS
[2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it .
Carl Murphy
Honestly the answer will have to come in the by and by
Varnel Watson
Of course YES
Diane Shearer
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
^^^ if there were no such thing the Bible would never have mentioned it. No, I do not believe it is the rapture… it is going back under the law for justification.
Jeff Latham
If one reads the bible and believes what one reads, then yes!
Varnel Watson
seems like lots of people have fallen away Joe Absher
Joe Absher
I haven’t heard “married to the backslider” sermon in awhile.
Tim Dalton
Then it is time to work on getting them back in the flock along with a whole lot of new converts.
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
(James 5)
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
Soussi Soussi
Either u believe science or fiction. No other way ..
Michelle Neff
Yes
Barbara Ann Wolfe
How do you know where the line is? How far is too far? Is there a set amount of sin? Did Jesus give any “rules” on when you have lost it?
Joe Absher
If you have to ask you’ve gone to far
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher that the measure you use? So each person would be different?
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Does the Bible actually give a measure?
Joe Absher
2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV — Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Nora Neel-Toney
Yes
Daniel J Hesse
Turning away?
Kenneth W Phelps
Turning Away Is A Better Way To Say It For No Man Can Take Us Away From GOD But We Can Take Ourselves Out Of His Hands
Alan Smith
Wouldn’t the measure of grace be found in the definition of what grace is?
Unmerited favor
Think about it
Varnel Watson
Now grace is…
Joe Absher
Grace is far more than forgiveness of sin. Which is where most use the term ‘unmerited favor’ and stop. But grace is soo much more…
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
– Romans 5:1,2
Alan Smith
You are correct, unmerited favor is where IT ALL begins, and HE justifies us!
You just confirmed my point even more. Thank you, sir
Nick Mihalik
Nope- I do believe in willful disobedience to God, which distances ourselves from His Grace.
Varnel Watson
Alan Smith Jude 24 comes into mind right here
Alan Smith
Yes, it does!
But goes against EVERYTHING Pentecostals believe.
Varnel Watson
naah – not really and not ALL Pentecostals
Alan Smith
Troy Day you don’t believe?
Varnel Watson
I dont believe it goes against EVERYTHING
Melody Cates Kinzer
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.