Church Fathers believed pre-Trib before DARBY

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28 Comments

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Troy Day

    John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence Terry Wiles here is the discussion I was asked to create for Brett Dobbs Link Hudson Michael Chauncey and Michael Buban We’ve done such discussion no less than dozen times in the past few years Every time the problem IS finding the actual source – I have challenged on this not only Link who posted some gnostic translation to defend his belief but also scholars like Dale M. Coulter Tony Richie and examinate their sources thoroughly in the original tongue through the years

    For example this is one of 6 research posts I;ve done posting on the internet sources on this father – sources who virtually none has posted on FB and internet before I post in another comment about my serious finds with Dale and others but the essence remains obvious that this one was psre-Trib 100% until some new translation of his works UNKNOWN to anyone including myself may prove this otherwise

    https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

    • Reply January 18, 2025

      Troy Day

      Jose Salinas had a great intro to this John Mushenhouse but Michael Buban cornered him with saying (2) Irenaeus was surely not pretrib.

      > But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem and so on

      A similar quote was given by Link Hudson from a Gnostic source which I have proven to him and Dale M. Coulter to be false here https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

      Also Brett Dobbs and Kyle Williams had some clown blogger inventor influencer come to my comments and try to act all smart I can find his name but he was no where close to Dr Dale – so after he could not get his sources together and got confused what source says what in which original tongue he left and went to make another video picking on someone else cause with my post he hit a dead end in his influencing 🙂 been waiting for him to come back but he aint coming – got spanked too bad theologically I guess (and was no theologian either)

    • Reply January 18, 2025

      Troy Day

      VIP Mike Babunchek DO READ at least some here before commenting further If you do not understand the material pls ask questions https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

      • Reply January 18, 2025

        Michael Buban

        Troy Day You should catalog your sources a little better I guess you probably mean this text:

        > Et propterea cum in fine repente Matt . xxiv . hinc Ecclesia assumetur: Erit , inquit , tribulatio qualis non est facta ab initio , neque fiet. Novissimus enim agon hic justorum, in quo vincentes coronantur incorruptela.

        It is from Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book V., chap. 26. In English it goes like this:

        > And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

        The last sentence surely does not imply pretribullationism! You can thus read it along posttribulational lines. Since Irenaeus makes allusion to Matthew 24 (and there is no rapture in Matthew 24) I think that he simply writes about the resurrection after the great tribulation, which “is the last contest of the righteous.”

        My guess is that by “hinc Ecclesia assumetur” he probably alludes to Matt. 24:40-41 in Vulgate, which says:

        > 40 tunc duo erunt in agro unus adsumetur et unus relinquetur 41 duae molentes in mola una adsumetur et una relinquetur

    • Reply January 18, 2025

      Troy Day

      John Mushenhouse @followers @Jose Babunchek also stated this quoting LADD

      Michael Buban
      “Every church father who deals with the subject expects the Church to suffer at the hands of Antichrist.

      We have since establish with Brett Dobbs Kyle Williams the quote is out of context Ladd was the corner stone of preMil and preTrib for Pentecostals AND such silly partial quotes out of context just dont prove anything

      • Reply January 18, 2025

        Michael Buban

        No, it does not prove anything, but it is an important marker. Ladd, Millard Erickson, and many others are of this opinion.

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Troy Day

    for starters Jose Salinas suggested the following John Mushenhouse

    We can start with the Bible. Daniel 9:24-27 is the key passage to understand the pretrib rapture. “Your people and your city” is not the church. Is concerning the Jewish nation I.e Israel 🇮🇱

    Also, here goes some of my favorite church fathers:

    Cyprian (AD 200-258)

    “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
    – Treatises of Cyprian

    Victorinus (AD 240-303)

    “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.” For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. “And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.”
    – Commentary on the Apocalypse

    “You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast.

    The Shepherd of Hermas, 1.4.2

    Thomas Vincent (1634-1678)

    “the righteous … suddenly caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; which sight will be fearful and amazing to them, when they perceive themselves to be left behind. … O the fear and trouble which will be upon the spirits of those unbelieving Christ-less, grace-less sinners … some of them linked in the nearest relations to them, when their believing relations shall be caught away from them, and carried up into the air, with the rest of the glorious train of Saints, when themselves shall remain below upon the earth ..

    Irenaeus (AD 130 – 202)

    And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

    – Against Heresies, Book 5, 5. 29

    What these pre-Darby rapture statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the rapture taught in Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true and it is becoming increasingly clear with each passing year.

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Troy Day

    Link Hudson made the following @highlight to John Mushenhouse
    Maybe you could post the pictures of 2 men who had ideas consistent with pretrib.

    as many times before I cannot grasp the idea of what Link Hudson is asking here but maybe he can elaborate so Philip Williams Terry Wiles Neil Steven Lawrence and possibly William DeArteaga can pitch in too

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Troy Day

    finally Brett Dobbs stated this interesting terms John Mushenhouse for my @followers

    I heard about one dispensationalist author that said the Christian’s who don’t get raptured and then go through the great tribulation won’t get glorified bodies immediately at the beginning of the millennium reign.

    +++
    Brett is grown man who can speak for himself where this quote is
    I have heard on the internets is an intro reserved by Link Hudson
    BUT to wait in some sort of purgatory is the belief of Philip Williams and his beloved last pope – not my belief by any chance Ricky Grimsley https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-prophesies-of-david-wilkerson-about-trump-and-the-pope/

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Troy Day

    Lets NOT forget to include Oscar Valdez Charles Page his twin the other Charles Page Michael Chauncey AND Peter Vandever of course

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Philip Williams

    Not one of those church fathers taught that unbelievering Jews would be restored to the land.

    • Reply January 18, 2025

      Troy Day

      Philip Williams WHAT now?
      what did you say exactly
      and what did you mean by that?

      • Reply January 18, 2025

        Philip Williams

        Rapture as currently taught is part of Dispensationalism where unbelieving Jews inherit the land of ancient Israel.

      • Reply January 19, 2025

        Troy Day

        Philip Williams how would you know what is currently taught is part of Dispensationalism ? When was the last time you read a book OR heard a teaching currently taught is part of Dispensationalism? You are silly !!!

      • Reply January 19, 2025

        Philip Williams

        Troy Day that’s right! Most Dispensationalists don’t know they are just teaching a variety of the old Dispensationalism.

    • Reply January 19, 2025

      Michael Buban

      Philip Williams Yes, and if you have some sources on the origins of Christian Zionism, I’d be happy to hear about them.

      What you say is documented by Donald M. Lewis, A Short History of Christian Zionism. But if you have other sources, I’d be happy to hear of them.

      • Reply January 19, 2025

        Philip Williams

        Michael Buban i haven’t read that, but it started with the way that Beza and the Geneva Bible interpreted Romans 11, thus turning the Jewish Religion into a genealogical race.

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Ricky Grimsley

    Nope

  • Reply January 18, 2025

    Ricky Grimsley

    When Turkey confirms a covenant with Israel in the next few years backed by the Abraham accord nations after forming a coalition of 10…….you will realize maybe you were wrong.

  • Reply January 19, 2025

    Troy Day

    Jose Salinas I posted this from your book
    I hold the position that LEE has not seen the said Greek fragments of Book V which no one among the living has seen yet NOT even Dale M. Coulter as we discussed this with him 2yrs ago

    Seems LEE saw our discussion and decided to sounds smart 🙂

    Anička Bubanová and Oscar Valdez need to read this book through
    John Mushenhouse needs to show it to @charles page who blocked me again instead of coming to the group and defend his silly stances
    Kyle Williams would remember I have written about book V before
    Link Hudson will act like he does not but will remember his Gnostics
    Brett Dobbs will remember bringing his silly YouTube bud on this
    finally Terry Wiles should write a book like this as Vol2 of his works
    Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2290699054648370&set=p.2290699054648370&type=3

    • Reply January 19, 2025

      Michael Buban

      Troy Day (1) I’m interested in Ephraim the Syrian. I only heart a pretrib quote by Pseudo-Ephraim, which is different.

      (2) Irenaeus:

      > And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V.28.4

      (3) Eusebius and his “provocative passages”:

      > It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
      His words are as follows: Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      – Eusebius, Church History, III.7

      I’m very interested in the book though. Please share it somehow or tell us about its content.

  • Reply January 19, 2025

    Troy Day

    Michael Buban hey misha babunchik where did your comment go? The catalog is great of course but you need a degree or 2 to know this BTW I am the only 1 who have put on the internet the actual Greek and Latin from book V online You can ask Brett Dobbs and his bud he brought over that spoke like you but never seen the actual frag. before 🙂

    NOW your latin is wrong – you actually need to know latin to translate it 🙂 appears yo copied the english from the same gnostic source Link as others

    What od you think about all this Jose Salinas John Mushenhouse

    • Reply January 20, 2025

      Michael Buban

      Troy Day Quit bragging, brother Troll, and provide your translation and explanation how is the other translation “gnostic”.

      Source of my translation: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

  • Reply January 20, 2025

    Michael Buban

    Jose Salinas Thank you for your comments. I must admit it was new to me to a significant extent. I do not have access to the book which you recommended here. Also, I trust we all agree that the Fathers are not inspired authors and that if some of them believed something it does not follow that we must believe the same. For example, it is quite difficult to see glossolalia in the Church Fathers, yet we practice it!

    I put together this list (part 1/2):

    (1) The Epistle of Barnabas (1st-2nd century)
    The overall tone is posttrib. He probably believed that the church already is in the tribulation, perhaps just like many other fathers.

    > We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becomes the sons of God.
    – The Epistle of Barnabas, 4:9

    (2) Didache (1st-2nd century)
    Didache assumes the presence of the faithful in the last tribulation.

    > 3 For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; 4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world. 5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. 6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead 7 — not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; 8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
    – Didache, 16:3-8

    (3) Shepherd of Hermas (2nd century)
    Shepherd of Hermas is sometimes mistakenly quoted as pretrib. but if you read it in context, it is apparent that for this author, escaping tribulation means to be protected from it, not to be raptured from Earth.

    > Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and had moved forward about thirty feet, lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white, and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was covered by a hood.s And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and said, “Hail, O man!” And I returned her salutation, and said, “Lady, hail!” And she answered. and said to me, “Has nothing crossed your path?” I say, “I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy I escaped from it.” “Well did you escape from it,” says she, “because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than by His great and glorious name. On this account the Lord has sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri, and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast.
    – Shepherd of Hermas, Vision 4, ch. 2:1-4

    (4) Justin Martyr (2nd century)
    Justin Martyr believed that Antichrist will do “unlawful deeds” against Christians just before His second coming.

    > O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, …
    (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110)

    To be continued…

    • Reply January 20, 2025

      Michael Buban

      (5) Irenaeus (2nd century)
      Here, we have one contested line but also a lot of uncontested posttrib. material.

      A. Church is put to flight, not raptured:
      > ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast’ … And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V.26

      B. Tribulation of the Church is necessary:
      > And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V.28

      C. The Church is caught up from her ultimate strife
      > And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V.29

      D. Tribulation of the Church ends only after the ultimate devastation
      > But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; …
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V.30

      E. Ireneus was a supersessionist
      > This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham.
      – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV.8

      (6) Hippolytus (2nd-3rd century)
      Hippolytus identifies “woman clothed with sun” with the Church and speaks of her “tribulation from the adversary”.

      > Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, …
      – Hippolytus, On Christ and Antichrist, chs. 60-61

      (7) Tertullian (2nd-3rd century)
      Here Tertullian expounds Luke 21. After going through verses 25-26, he stops at Luke 21:36. Tertullian thinks that Luke 21:36 describes resurrection, not rapture, which makes him posttrib. rather then pretrib.

      > Watch, therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all those things, and to stand before the Son of man; Luke 21:36 that is, no doubt, at the resurrection, after all these things have been previously transacted.
      – Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, ch. 22

      (8. ) Eusebius (3rd-4th century)
      Eusebius believed that the great tribulation has already passed:
      > It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
      His words are as follows: Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      – Eusebius, Church History, Book III, chap. 7

      (9) Lactantius (3rd-4th century)

      In The Divine Institutes, VII.25, no pretrib. rapture is mentioned and posttrib. is implied. Then Lactantius describes great tribulation and God’s wrath but clearly assumes that the Church will be present on Earth, although hidden.

      > The mountains shall be filled with carcasses, and the plains shall be covered with bones; but the people of God during those three days shall be concealed under caves of the earth, until the anger of God against the nations and the last judgment shall be ended.
      > Then the righteous shall go forth from their hiding-places, and shall find all things covered with carcasses and bones. But the whole race of the wicked shall utterly perish; and there shall no longer be any nation in this world, but the nation of God alone.
      – Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, VII.26

  • Reply January 20, 2025

    Troy Day

    Michael Buban Jose Oscar Salinas Jr. Jose Salinas Lee;s book you posted is a copy paste from our article here

    https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-in-the-rapture/

    Seem babunchik was arguing all this time without knowing a thing abut it

    LEE also alludes to my arguments with Dale M. Coulter on the non existing Greek fragments Lee has just copied it without knowing whats what

    Misha B also has not a clue I am not certain WHAT his argument was since now he says he was not aware of any by large

    Miasha has not translated from the LATIN at all Had he tried to he would have known there are 2 if not 3 latin version because the MSS are different in bookV and is hard to determine HENCE I dug out the actual original with the footnote that explains the dif. to the lay person

    Misha simply copy pasted from the catholic site which Link used after he got caught using the Gnostic source None of them take under consideration the footnote in the Latin largely depending on Jerome but Jerome did not write bookV so they are wrong

    Brett Dobbs bud did not want to recognize the original source and run with his influencer show hence Budd is quite about bookV now

    Dr. Dale promised to wait for his guy at St Vlads to publish the translation another language – not Greek not Latin but COPTIC I dont like to wait and reached to a friend at St Vlads to ask – they had no plan to publish new translation of bookV most certainly NOT from COPTIC https://ml.coptic-treasures.com/book/against-heresies-irenaeus/

    so I found the actual .COPTIC source and asked the bretheren Coptic scholars confirmed the footnote in the Latin They reject Jerome’s influence on the text and have translated it as it is ie. stating BookV claims the church will be taken pre-Trib

    if you still want me 2 I can find the book of our brother who actually goes into depth explaining the church fathers 1 by 1 We have discussed it with John Mushenhouse and it is rock solid

    @James C. Morris is still the the group

    His explanation of his pre-mil pre-trib rapture from Irenaeus Against the Heresies Book V remains roc solid and still unchallenged

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