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Troy Day | PentecostalTheology.com
Are children born innocent
and choose to sin
as they grow up…
Varnel Watson
OR are they born in original sin?
Tendo Steven
They are born innocent and sinless
Varnel Watson
What about David who was born in sin?
Walter Polasik
Tengo Steven: Not according to scripture. Look at Genesis 5:3. Adam passed on his characteristics to his son. This was post-fall. I’ve had people remark, “But sin isn’t genetic” to this issue but realized that PHYSICALLY something changed for Adam as a result of sin. There was corruption of the original physical perfection, a degradation. There was also an inherent, in-born, “wired” if you will, proclivity to sin. Little kids are the perfect example of this. You don’t have to teach them how to lie, or steal, or be rebellious against authority.
Walter Polasik
Psalm 51: 5, Troy,
Tendo Steven
So if a child of just days die, they go to hell?
Varnel Watson
Some theologians do believe that and have Biblical proof to back it
Tendo Steven
Ok
Terry Wiles
This is what I believe.
Scriptures represent every human being as having inherited a sinful nature (see Job 14:4, 15:14; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3); that men universally become guilty of acts of sin as soon as they come to moral consciousness (see Ps. 58:3; Isa. 48:8); that no man can be saved by works (Ps. 143:2; Acts 13:39: Rom. 3:20, Gal. 2:16) and that Scripture represents man’s state of apostasy as the direct result of Adam’s sin (Rom. 5:15-19).
Ray E Horton
Walter has the scriptural position here. Babies and little children are not held accountable until they are conscious of sin. But, all are born with a sin nature. When one is Born Again that sin nature, the old man as the Bible calls it, dies, and we become whole new creations with a new nature in our inner person, our spirits. That is when our sins are washed away (forgiven) and cleansed, and our spirits are made as white as snow with the gift of His righteousness. While our old man, our sin nature is gone once and for all, in our soulish realm (vs. spirit, see Heb. 4:12), that is, our mind, will and emotions, we still need to work out that salvation that is ours in our daily lives, because of old habits and ways and hurts and wrong teaching. We renew our minds to who we have become in Christ, and that gives us the confidence to grow steadily in Christlike living from glory to glory.
Varnel Watson
Ray There is now BIblical proof that babies and little children are not held accountable until they are conscious of sin Please show us Scripture to back this up
Scotty Searan
How do we know are sinning, if we don’t know we are doing wrong?
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Varnel Watson
Not knowing you are not breaking the law does not mean you are not breaking the law You are still breaking it just dont know you are
Scotty Searan
If a,person has not heard of Jesus Christ, how can they be saved?
Varnel Watson
True or False ?
Eva Benevento
Pelagian controversy
Varnel Watson
Really? Melvin Shomo Joseph D. Absher
Melvin Shomo
Children are born innocent they only choose to sin the older they get to actually know the difference
Varnel Watson
No verse in the Bible to defend such position – just saying
Melvin Shomo
Common sense settles the issue. God has gifted us all with common sense
We just have to learn to apply it to our lives
Varnel Watson
I have found no Biblical reference to that particular Common sense issue Others may have found a verse or two
Randal W Deese
The historical church has always taught that children are born innocent. The Roman Catholic Church changed that and the protestants followed. Yes, most Pentecostals have some RC Doctrine
Joseph D. Absher
Thank you. I’ve often wondered where this verse fits. I think it agrees with everything people are saying about “original sin”
Romans 7:9 KJV — For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Varnel Watson
Randal W Deese Why does the so called “historical” church baptizes infants for renouncing of sins and the works of the devil? if they are innocent indeed? The historical church you speak of did not exist until the Great Schism – there is lots of church history 10 centuries before it that needs to be studied
Randal W Deese
1. Infants are baptized in orthodoxy to remove the consequences of the ‘original sin’.
To wash away all other sins committed before the time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy. To unite the person to “The Body of Christ” (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.
2. The historical Church has always been Orthodoxy – Rome split off…
When I refer to the Historical Church, I’m referring to the generally agreed doctrines of the entire Church history of the Unified Church.
Varnel Watson
Right. So children ARE born in sin – original sin
Randal W Deese
We don’t teach original sin like the West.
Randal W Deese
This may help
http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/our-faith/catechism/the-ofall/original-sin
Varnel Watson
of course you do 🙂 Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the doctrine of ancestral sin: “Original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve’s. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin.”
Randal W Deese
Troy Day That definition is a little off that you have… No one needs to do is look at any orthodox catechism
Varnel Watson
Henry Volk already did that last year 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day I’m actually working on an Orthodox Pentecostal catechism
Joseph D. Absher
By candle light?
Randal W Deese
Joseph D. Absher If it was good enough for the early church, it is good enough for me… Ha ha ha ha
Joseph D. Absher
Why does it seem there is so much confusion on this. There’s a lot of verses for what is called original sin. Is it the terms? Innocence, guilt, age of accountability? What’s really going on.
Randal W Deese
Joseph D. Absher
I don’t have the text right in front of me because I am traveling, but part of the problem is how a specific verse is translated. Later this evening I will find that verse and the various translations
Joseph D. Absher
No doctrine hangs on one verse. Even I know that
Randal W Deese
Joseph D. Absher This is true… But it seems to be the key for moving in one direction or another
Joseph D. Absher
As long as it ain’t Romans 9 lol
Varnel Watson
Randal One Henry Volk tried doing a pentecostal cathechism and met constructional difficulties. Merging Orthodox and Pentecostal are fundamentally and intrinsically different
– child baptism
– authority of believer
– practice the gifts in Pentecostal hierarchy
– church governing
– women in ministry – just to name a few off the top of my head
Randal W Deese
The difference is that I am embracing Orthodox theology but with Penecostal gift distinctives… That’s it
Randal W Deese
I am an Orthodox Bishop. I work under a patriarch. I have been given freedom to create a Pentecostal type jurisdiction.
Varnel Watson
Randal 🙂 Pentecostal type jurisdiction is not even how Pentecostalism works 🙂
You are probably NOT aware that patriarchs before yours have tried to establish Protestant connection. It was impossible in practice and theology then it is impossible in practice and theology now
In 1558 the patriarch of Constantinople, Joasaph II, sent a deacon named Demetrios Mysos to Wittenberg to learn more about the new movement in the West. He spoke directly with Melenchton but did NOT work out Another Lutheran embassy of a more imposing character, headed by the well-known Tubingen divines Andrea; and Crusius, visited Constantinople during the patriarchate of Jercmias (1576 to 1581). But both missions remained without result. The differences in theology and practice were just too great to even begin talking about it
Randal W Deese
Troy Day I already have 700 Pentecostal churches that have agreed to join up with me
Randal W Deese
Troy Day By the way… I was raised a Lutheran and went to a Lutheran seminary… I am very aware of the things of which you speak
Randal W Deese
Troy Day First of all… There is no rule of how Pentecostalism works… It was just a renewal movement… Which I am involved with intimately
Randal W Deese
This basically expresses what we are doing
Randal W Deese
http://Www.assembliesofchrist.org
Varnel Watson
oh you are QUITE mistaken – Pentecostalism is much much more than jut another renewal movement 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Every other Doctrine that Pentecostals whole except for the Doctrine concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit, are all taught by other groups… Hence, just a movement
Joseph D. Absher
Mr Troy Day
I didn’t get a response on this verse how does this fit. Doesn’t it confirm “original sin”
Romans 7:9 KJV — For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Varnel Watson
Good observation and right on topic
Varnel Watson
Randal W Deese dont wann hijack this post with Ortho Doxy so we can start a new one and tear it apart if you’d like
But in Pentecostal liturgy order
at ANY given moment ANY one in the congregation can feel/get/experience the move of the Holy Spirit and start prophecy in unknown tongues that may be
HOW is this gonna work out with the priestly lexicon being read in order as sanctioned by the Patriarch? Give it to happen 2-3-4-5 times this year and that many next in in a decade your congregation will a whole annual cycle behind the other churches and way out of the will of the Patriarch 🙂
Randal W Deese
That is not true in every Penecostal church. I was involved with many Penecostal churches that didn’t practice it that way but were orderly
Randal W Deese
Part of the problem here is that you have experienced Pentecostalism, but there is much Pentecostalism outside of your circles… Pentecostalism is much bigger than what you think
Joseph D. Absher
Well it ain’t bigger than the B.I.B.L.E.
I’ll be here all week thanks!