IDENTIFY AND BRING DOWN ENEMY STRONGHOLDS

IDENTIFY AND BRING DOWN ENEMY STRONGHOLDS
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CAN CHRISTIANS IDENTIFY PARTS OF EARTH THAT ARE STRONGHOLDS OF ENEMY AND BRING THEM DOWN?

Are there certain parts of the country that are “darker” than others? Are there particular places in North America that seem laden with spirits? What locales are most “tinged” with evil?

We recall, years back, a Protestant movement to answer such questions. It was called the “spiritual mapping project,” and it certainly was a valiant goal.

But practical?

Can we really evaluate entire cities and regions spiritually?

The short answer is “no.” Every area has its good and its bad. Admittedly, there are cities we’ve visited that had special and not always very pleasant feelings.

There is Savannah, Georgia: you can almost touch the (negative) spirit world here. There is Lily Dale in Upstate new York: a village of mediums. There is the “Tenderloin” part of San Francisco, where strange sexual practices have attracted a strange spiritual energy. There is the Chelsea part of Manhattan: even cabdrivers call it haunted (and some don’t like driving there).

The list is without end. Take New York: you could also list parts of the Lower East Side or Greenwich Village — or, well, any neighborhood.

But there are certain places with unusual “clouds,” and often it’s caused by what has been or is being done: strip joints, bars, pornography, drug use, tattoo parlors, astrology, spiritualism, New Age, pagan burial mounds, and wicca often do confer a burden of evil, as does intense materialism in the swankier parts of town. There are pockets of good even in the darkest places. It is an interesting rumination as many prepare for summer trips.

Since the Seventies, there have been ministries that have set out to study an area, “map” out its spiritual “strongholds,” then go about in prayer to bring them down. “Can the ‘spiritual DNA’ of a community be altered?” asked the Christian Science Monitor. “That’s the question posed in a Christian video called “Transformations. Kenyan pastor Thomas Muthee is convinced that it can be. In 1988, he and his wife, Margaret, were ‘called by God to Kiambu,’ a notorious, violence-ridden suburb of Nairobi and a ‘ministry graveyard’ for churches for years. They began six months of fervent prayer and research.

“Pondering the message of Ephesians 6:12 (‘For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world…’), they prayed to identify the source of Kiambu’s spiritual oppression, Mr. Muthee says. Their answer: the spirit of witchcraft.

“Their research into the community revealed that a woman called ‘Mama Jane’ ran a ‘divination clinic’ frequented by the town’s most powerful people. After months of prayer, Muthee held a crusade that ‘brought about 200 people to Christ.’ Their church in the basement of a grocery store was dubbed, ‘The Prayer Cave,’ as members set up round-the-clock intercession. Mama Jane counterattacked, he says, but eventually “the demonic influence — the ‘principality’ over Kiambu — was broken,’ and she left town.

“The atmosphere changed dramatically: Bars closed, the crime rate dropped, people began to move to the area, and the economy took an upturn. The church now has 5,000 members, he says, and 400 members meet to pray daily at 6 a.m. From just such experiences, a global movement of evangelicals has developed over the past decade that seeks to free cities and neighborhoods from social scourges even as it ‘takes them for God.'”

In “tracking” spirits, evangelicals look at the ancient religious practices in the city; whether strange sects are located therein; if there has been war, brutality, or slavery; what kind of leaders were (and are) there; when the Gospel was first preached; and how many in a vicinity practice Christianity.

The intention is admirable. We’re all called to spiritual warfare — to a degree, at some level (and mainly personal). Paul in Ephesians tells us that our reality is not controlled by what is seen but rather by what is not.

 Still, can we map such? Can we ever really grasp the entire spiritual landscape — or even the foundational one, when we realize that before settlers were Indians and before Indians were paleo-Indians and before paleo-Indians were cavemen? As one critic points out, Paul does not discuss the origin of demons, does not reconstruct their hierarchies, does not affirm territorial jurisdiction, does not name them, and does not list their function. We can not possibly see this realm with physical eyes.

That doesn’t mean we don’t battle them — nor does it refer to the “naming” of demons (by general characteristics) in deliverance. It means we can’t hope to have the whole picture.

But we should recognize what we can.

If you want to see the prevalence of one aspect of a stronghold, just look for the local “ghost tour.”

Around the world we think of entire countries that seem under the sway of the dragon (see: China). Note the strangeness too in countries like India. And in the Middle East.

But, again, how far to go with this? Is it relevant whether there is a Freemason hall (or sign at the entrance of a city, right there next to the Rotary Club)?

Perhaps. Even, probably. There is an aura when there is such a presence.

And it predominates, if it is not counterbalanced. Sacramentals can be potent. Most potent: praying — and pleading the Blood — as we drive around town.

“Western Christianity, to its detriment, has lost touch with this elementary understanding and has, for the most part, considered this earthly realm as the basis for all its decisions, whether those decisions were evangelically or socially motivated,” says one proponent of spiritual mapping. “The major hindrance to our past attempts to set the captives free was looking for a natural or physical explanation to spiritual matters. In essence, thinking the physical realm is the first layer of reality. Through the discipline of spiritual mapping, we learn to see things as they truly are and not simply as they appear to be. Spiritual mapping is likened to a doctor’s use of x-rays and MRI to diagnose what is being manifested on the outside of the patient. Like the doctor, the intercessors can then treat the cause of the problem and not just treat the symptom. It is remarkable that up until recently we as the Body of Christ have been ignorant of the invisible world. Oh, we have known about Heaven and hell and God and the devil, and many of us have been casting out demons. That, however, is not enough to wage an effective war. As George Otis [who coined the term ‘spiritual mapping’] says, ‘One would think the ways of the spiritual dimension would be as familiar to the average believer as the sea is to mariners.’ Such, however, is far from the case. Why? Otis goes on to say, ‘The problem seems to be that many believers — particularly in the Western hemisphere — have not taken the time to learn the language, principles and protocols of the spiritual dimension.’ “

Says another: “Strategic-level spiritual warfare deals with principalities and conditions that allow them to control nations. These are strongholds that hinder the work of the Church, and before the Kingdom of God can prosper, certain principles have to be applied and the principalities displaced. The land needs to be healed and God’s presence and favor restored, and only the Church can accomplish this. This is the mission of the Church. Strategic-level warfare prayer is seen in Daniel 10, where we see Daniel standing in the gap for his nation and praying for an understanding of God’s plan for his people. The time is during the Medo-Persian empire, and his prayers are hindered by a principality called the prince of the Persian kingdom (verse 13). This is not a person but a territorial spirit that is controlling and empowering the Persian kingdom. However, God displaces the spirit (verse 20) and another principality called the prince of Greece comes in its place. A change has occurred in the spiritual realm, and in the natural we see the Greek empire come into existence. So a change in the spiritual realm produces a change in the natural. Another good example is inEzekiel 28:1-19, where the focus is the nation of Tyre. There are two personalities, one is the natural ruler called the ruler of Tyre (verses 1-10), and the other is the principality who is called the king of Tyre (verses 11-19).  Also, Jerusalem is called the gate to the nations, indicating that through Jerusalem (or the Church) the blessings of God will flow to the nations (or people groups) of the world.”

It gets heavy.

Is it too heavy (convoluted)? Counters a critic, Kent Philpott: “I wish spiritual mapping would work. Here it is, Gospel preaching, praying for the lost, waging spiritual warfare and Christians uniting as well. But let us reason together. If this were indeed the biblical pattern for evangelism we might expect to see some expression of it in the New Testament. Yes, Paul does speak of principalities, powers, strongholds, but they are not put together as Otis and [others] have. If spiritual mapping was the means of salvation for the lost, we could expect a clear command, instruction or example of its use in Scripture. Instead, Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the gospel. Jesus did not give means other than preach, witness and disciple.

“Spiritual mapping strikes me as a magical, works centered ploy. Consider the program: the demonic powers over an area must be discerned by means of demographics, histories, etcetera, then prayer is used, by spiritual leaders united and in one accord in the target area to break the demonic stronghold. Whatever happened to the sovereign work of God? All that is needed apparently is knowledge, leaders in one accord and prayer. It is man centered, it is the work of man, and it is magical. Do we see this in any of the great awakenings, do we see this in the Book of Acts, did Jesus instruct His disciples along these lines, did Paul ever employ or encourage spiritual mapping or anything remotely like it? Certainly not!”

How fascinating it would be to see an actual “map.”

They have not really been able to come up with a comprehensive one.

We can’t do this, in  the physical.

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pray strongholds down. Certainly, we all need to plead the Blood, call out praise (especially this), and use Blessed Salt in parts of where we live that seem (and feel) especially dark. This is a calling. It is important. We have had Blessed Salt spread over L.A., Boston, the coastlines of Florida, Beverly Hills, Hollywood, San Francisco, Washington, D.C. (including the Capitol), New Jersey, Toronto, Chicago, New Orleans, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and other municipalities.

We just should be careful not to think we know more than we do, nor to become so engaged with such as to be obsessed with it.

120 Comments

  • George Hartwell
    Reply February 13, 2019

    George Hartwell

    It took 2 pages of a large page book to list all 50+ ‘demons’ that might need to be cast out. Very clear that Christians now can find demons names after every possible emotional state, every possible nuance of sin and every possible disaster that can befall man. The net effect of this book is to put lots of attention on demons. I have learned that putting most of one’s attention on demons attracts demons – enough demons to destroy one’s ministry.

  • Link Hudson
    Reply February 13, 2019

    Link Hudson

    Some comments on this topic:
    – We never see Jesus or the apostles cleaning up a city or territory by commanding principalities to come down out of the heavens, saying, “I bind you” to them.
    – We have great and precious promises in regard to prayer– asking of the Father in Jesus’ name. We are to fight with the armor of God, with prayer and supplication.
    – Paul’s warfare in II Corinthians 10 involves thoughts and imaginations. In the armor of God passage, the word of the Spirit is the word of God. If we look at Acts and the epistles, we see the apostles fought warfare by preaching and teaching the word of God. Warring through preaching can be done one soul at a time, or as crowds hear the Gospel and believe.
    – Jude and II Peter warn of false brethren and false teachers who are not afraid to speak evil of ‘dignitaries.’ The examle given in Jude is of how Michael would not bring a harsh accusation against Satan before the LORD, but said, ‘The LORD rebuke you.’ The implication is that Satan is a ‘dignitary’, so the warning may be against false brethren who are not afraid to rail harshly against principalities and powers.

  • Nelson Banuchi
    Reply February 13, 2019

    Nelson Banuchi

    Parts? the whole world is Satan’s stronghold…

    • Isara Mo
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Nelson Banuchi
      1 John 5:19

    • Isara Mo
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Nelson Banuchi
      If that is so when then has the finished work of the cross achieved?
      If the purpose was kingdom restoration we should have seen it, abundant life to the full but we see suffering and misery and oppression and tears and every trouble and persecution to believer and unbeliever alike…
      God cannot do His work twice: since the days of the John the Baptist the Kingdom of God suffers violence…AND THE VIOLENT. ?.?,
      There is an ongoing war and if one sits passively and WAITS for God to it for them let them wait….and it is going to be a long wait.
      We perish because we lack knowledge and most importantly spiritual knowledge..
      You will know the TRUTH said Jesus and it will set you free…
      What is TRUTH?
      If the OT was a shadow of the NT we simply look back and see how they battled strongholds…was it by prayer and supplication?
      They were ordered to break down.enemy altars(sources of all evil power) and burnt them down…destroy them completely.
      The Israelites didn’t reach and possess Canaan by sweet talk with the enemies, co existence nor compromise : they had to fight through and know what?
      God had told them “I have given you Canaan”
      God gives you chocolate to eat because He knows you have teeth.
      Why do people of grace translate and apply most of OT stuff to their lives and yet avoid the part about warfare?
      Because warfare is nasty…no music there.
      When God foretold the birth of Jesus he said there will be enmity between the woman’s seed and the devils seed and that we will crush his head and he strike our heels…not that he will flee. ..
      The fight is on…

  • Link Hudson
    Reply February 13, 2019

    Link Hudson

    Let’s suppose I bought a large bowl of jelly beans for my kids. How useful is it for me to create a map of where very color or flavor is? How about mapping out the location of the feces in the septic tank? How would mapping be profitable?

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      if you were frying eggs for your kids how many would you need for one single breakfast?

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 14, 2019

    Troy Day

    jelly beans vs strongholds Link Hudson you analogy is as good as fried eggs demonology

  • Rick Warner
    Reply February 14, 2019

    Rick Warner

    Do you know that the shoes u buy for your work is a tax deductible?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Do you have to itemize? I know you don’t if you do a Schedule C, but if you are just an employee?

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      you cant itemize this year Link not for clergy at least – just housing. Shoes and uniforms are no more items you can list misc. anymore

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Can you do ministry on a schedule C. I think you could if you weren’t clergy per se in the past.

  • George Hartwell
    Reply February 14, 2019

    George Hartwell

    When Christians bind and pray against demons and demonic strongholds they get closer to the dangerous state of invoking demons. Christians who, in ignorance, bind demons will, too often, attract or invoke demons and come under attack. I have observed that Christians who invoke demons and territorial spirits by ‘binding’ them come under severe spiritual attack. This starts a vicious cycle. I have seen it in my life and in that of others and in the demise of a Christian counseling service here in Ontario.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Jude warns of those who speak evil of dignitaries.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      Jezebel needs to be bound before cast out

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day did rhe eunuchs bind Jezebel?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Link Hudson is there a direct teaching of the “Spirit of Jezabel” in the bible? Is it just what some preacher came up with. A teaching and since many like the drama and sensational, it caught on. Do we need to create some evil persona to make us feel spiritual? So what about faith and this scripture – Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4 — Isn’t that enough to know besides creating spirits based on a spirit not defined in the word but from a man seeking yet another teaching.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Tim Dalton no one on this forum has shown any evidence of Jezebel being a demon or principality. I brought up the same point.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Link Hudson exactly- it makes a good sermon and folks like cheap thrills. What is frightening is not the dramatic teaching, but the fact that people will believe anything. Too bad they don’t seem to believe this – Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
      Acts 17:11 – I have seen spirit of jezabel tee shirts. This is really not a laughing matter.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      Link Hudson the angel of the church should have

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day i rncountered someone on the old Charisma forum who believed the Jezebel spirit was more powerful than Satan. It is not even mentioned in the Bible.

  • George Hartwell
    Reply February 14, 2019

    George Hartwell

    The important point is not whether or not there is a Jezebel spirit but how to safely provide deliverance from demons and safety in spiritual warfare. That teaching is clearly missing. My thesis is that what we are being taught is a ‘doctrine of demons’ meaning it consistently leads the Body of Christ into defeat in spiritual warfare. Do not listen to a teaching that moves you to engage demons or territorial spirits. The Lord can deal with them if we focus our attention, praise and worship on Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is what Judson Cornwall was shown. (Let us Praise, page 72.)

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 14, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    or as I said earlier from the bible – greater is He who is in me etc. then move on– people speak more of demons then of jesus. That is because they take pride in their own works and not Jesus. That is the real demonic blinding .

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 14, 2019

    Troy Day

    Did Jesus not say – they shall cast out demons?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 14, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      You have not fully quoted the scripture. Satan did the same at the temptation. It is in the name of Jesus (power of Jesus) and not our own works as many falsely believe.

      Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;

      People just take things out of the word without understanding what it means. It makes thrilling teachings but so biblically wrong. Like this scripture about people misinterpreting the word and thinking the power is man’s.
      But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God Matt. 22:29

      Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
      but to Your name be the glory, Psalm 115

    • George Hartwell
      Reply February 14, 2019

      George Hartwell

      Yes, Troy. But in most attempts to implement that ministry, there is bad fruit. What will definitely create bad fruit is to be addressing demons from start to finish. The principle of invocation is at work – what you name over and over is what you get (even if you think you are ‘binding’ it.)

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      Tim Dalton did I not mention the name of Jesus? George Hartwell what most attempts? You are an analytical man as ti seems to me – have you observed and analyzed MOST most attempts to implement that ministry? Where does your data come from?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Link Hudson

      When Jesus spoke of binding the strongman, wasn’t this a metaphor for ___casting out___ demons. Where does anyone in the Bible bind the strongman by saying “I bind you.” Participate in one of these almost no rules fighting matches and say ‘I bind you to Him’ and see if it works. If you add the Lord’s name, will that work? But we do see an apostle yelling a spirit to come out in Jesus’ name.

      The Matthew 18 passage on binding and loosing seems to be more along the lines of judicial language. The Sanhedrin would allow ‘loose’ or forbid ‘bind’.

      Casting demons out of other people is not the same as pulling archons down with our words.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Acts 19:15 gives a warning .

      But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”

      Read acts 19:11-20 in context with the result being the name of the Lord was magnified and not the glory given to man.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      Tim Dalton I am interpreting the passage not quoting it In a PT group we should all know what it says and not needing to quote all the time when we reference it. BTW comparing a Holy Ghost filled person with satan maybe the deadly sin against the Holy Ghost At least Jesus said so when they did it to him

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Troy Day – I am not sure if that is a correct analogy or just changing the subject. The truth is the truth there. The demon only said he knew Jesus and Paul.

      You really are basing your view on the deadly sin simply on an assumption. Please show me biblical proof of what it is. If you can’t, well we don’t go by guesswork to prove our point or defend ourselves. It is shocking that the demon didn’t know the 7 sons and we, often while trying to make points, don’t know what we base our view on. That is quite a fallacy. Tell me how can you base a view on something you can’t define. Try that in court or in writing a contract.

      This we do know and acts 19 backs it up. The glory went to the Lord and not to men. I see way too much contradictory posts and other views praising man and little, if any, mention of Jesus. He is our Lord and not a stranger or subject to writers, or preachers etc. We sometimes forget that he is the King of Kings especially in these times of man centered religion.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      Tim Dalton I see that you are not too sure so I clarified the issue for you as much as I could Now it should be more than clear

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Troy Day you only muddied the waters. Why are you ducking the question I asked. This is a simple question and if you are not trying to put words in my mouth ( lead the witness) you really ought to answer.

      What is the biblical definition of the unpardonable sin. Stick to the definition. Please don’t reply with guess work, double talk or further attempts to dodge your accountability of misquoting the bible by changing the subject. Stick to the subject.

      If you didn’t think I committed such a grave sin, why would you have brought it up. You either thought that or tried to use it as a way to avoid the accountability for misquoting scripture. Not very good concerning either option.
      Since you have not attempted to define the sin, how in the world could you have clarified it. Avoidance and double talk is far from clarifying. We must start speaking the truth to one another.

      So again, please give me the Bible’s definition of that sin which I might have committed. That was a serious accusation and one that such an accusation may also be construed as the very sin itself. Although, I would never accuse another of something I couldn’t define just to make me look better when caught in misquoting.

      I like to try to be mature in my discussions and not one who resorts to such behavior. Plus as I said earlier, it is a total fallacy. I think you own me as a christian the definition especially if I had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit. Do you understand how serious it is. This is far more grevious then talking about demons. This is the unforgivable sin.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      What exactly is the question you asked?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      stop it you saw it several times.

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 15, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    I would say look at Luke 10 :19-20. What does the word subject mean? Hint it is a military designation. A ranking. You are ranked in the scheme of God as greater. That is what you must rejoice in and not your works. Rejoice that you have been saved is what Jesus said. Luke 19-20

    19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

    Too much misdirected glory to man who is just doing things in Jesus’ name (power). Such poor teaching and exegesis. We often learn by books, teaching tapes etc. and don’t see what God’s word actually says. The traditions of men are still usually wrong.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      so the part of trample serpents, means i can handle rattle snakes?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner – 1 Cor. 10:23 All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton ALL…that is broad and undefined

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      do a word study on all then.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton i am taking the scripture as you have posted it….ALL serpents….so does that mean i can pick up a rattle snake or copperhead and have God’s Protection and if get bit, i do not need to go to hospital or die?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner do an exegesis. Take this scripture as well – Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 –

      notice it says for “you” to study for yourself. The English at that time study = do your best — Are you doing your best or trying to play games. I think it is the games young man.

      John 2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people.

      Don’t act like the poor misused martyr, but step up and study God’s word. It is not a game or a joke or an opportunity for your pride to show how clever you see yourself. It is for your growth in grace and wisdom. I highly recommend that. God bless

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton i am not playing a game or joke around. I read the scripture as its written it says i can take up serpents….that is pretty much fundamental english comprehention

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner – learn greek and read the nt as it was written.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton not to give you a hard time. I am not going to learn greek..i barely learned english. When i read anything, i normally take it as face value…When i read a book of USA history, i do not read England history books to learn the mentality of the English coming over here to settle the country

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner – but the bible is not just some book. It is the revealed wisdom of God. You get what you want I guess. I want to know everything about it because Matt 4:4 says But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” — It is life.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton i have no doubt about anything you just stated. BUT it does not say…..look up Greek to understand what man has translated

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner why when it was written in Greek They all read it in greek. Does it say change to the vernacular because people are perhaps too lazy or think it is too hard to learn greek. Rick think about your statement. They had no reason to look up greek as they knew it. That makes no sense and you are not using reasoning.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner please come up with some well thought out and reasoned excuses from now on. If you do try to think of some (you use a variation of your one feeble one now). I am confidant that you won’t be able to come up with an excuse. So save your time and start learning. God bless.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Rick Warner

      native americans didnt speak enlish nor did the europeans that came to settle US speak english…English was invented to have a common language for the US for all to communicate…so when you read anything do you find out who wrote it and go back to their original language to see how the english was intrepreted? I read the word as its translated in the bible that is wrtten i would venture to say 90% of Christians read the Word and comprehend it as its written and not go back to Hebrew or Greek language

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner stop – I didn’t bother to read you excuses.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton i am not in the witness box of a court room. mr attorney……this is FB i can respond how i feel…just as you read as you feel. so STOP

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      one way to identify and bring down enemy strongholds

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Troy Day isnt that why reading the word important?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner – I can’t stop reasoning. I think you should start.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner you wouldn’t last 2 minutes on the stand. Sorry but it is the truth my friend.

    • Rick Warner
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Tim Dalton you think? and you have no clue to what my background is…..i could be one of your judges….

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 17, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Rick Warner I actually do. It has been established by your farcical excuses that you refuse to strive for the best in seeking a better understanding of Biblical study tools (languages). Many do it out of apathy for seeking the deeper truth, laziness, lack of mental aptitude , fear of failure or a combination of the above. We can now add pride. Pride in sticking to your mediocre assumptions regardless of biblical enrichment. I have little respect for that mindset and since God wrote “do your best” concerning rightly dividing the word, I believe I know His response as well.

      I can see that you can be quick to respond to others without thinking things through (knee jerk reactions). I can only imagine if an intelligent person would put pressure on you to state your case in an arena where reasoned, thought out answers must apply. I can also see affinity to anger.

      I have seen so many get overly frustrated where they would confess to the JFK shooting, Nicole Simpson murder and so many other things. Concerning your ludicrous attempt to seem clever, I have met real intelligent jurists. You are far from one.

      After saying all that, my one true impression is why someone really doesn’t want all the wisdom God has given. Now keep your inefficient excuses far from me as I wish to talk about the things of God. Save them for a jury of your peers.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 17, 2019

      Troy Day

      HOW is the JFK shooting related to strongholds ?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 17, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Troy Day it is a simple reply to Mr. Warner’s post? Why didn’t you ask him how did his apply?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 17, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Troy I was being facetious. I have seen so many get twisted, confounded and made a mumbling mess that they would confess to the most mysterious crimes if pressed.

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 15, 2019

    Troy Day

    Tim Dalton Philip Williams are yall trying we are NOT to cast demons out? What are you saying by referring to the 7 sons of Skeva?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day No, just don’t use sorcery.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      who uses sorcery?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day some of the Kansas City Prophets!

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      Peter Vandever who claims personal ties with them has advised us otherwise but maybe as well – can you pls elaborate on what exactly do you mean by that?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day what does he say about them with regard to what and why?

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      I think he likes them Bob and all – what do you say about them and who they are after all?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 15, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day which Bob?

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Stop trying to put words in my mouth as it doesn’t work. Do it (casting out demons) only in the name of Jesus and not your own or your efforts. I see so much showmanship in it too. Pitiful.

      Too many imagine demons everywhere when there are other reasons like sin, loving darkness etc. There is so little discernment let alone discernment of spirits. (1 Cor. 12:10)

      Too many want be Christian super heroes. We already have the King of Kings. Jesus is my Godly hero.

      If theology mean God words then I see Pentecostal Theology in many places an oxymoron as there is little talk (very little) about God and a lot (much much) of talk, praise and promotion of man. Jesus told the demons to shut up. I wonder if He wants to tell some of these showmen doing their tricks the same.

      And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. Luke 4:35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      IDENTIFY AND BRING DOWN ENEMY STRONGHOLDS in the name of Jesus ONLY

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
      Zechariah 4:6

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      dont forget in the name of Jesus- it still works

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Troy Day

    Tim Dalton you do know that MK 16 was NOT written in the original Greek right? #JustChecking

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day if there is one passage in the Bible that we can be certain was from the original text is Mark 16. No one, and especially not all the manuscript traditions but one, would have added such a challenging passage had everyone not known that was already in the Scriptures passed down. Moreover, the church fathers are quoting this centuries before Origen deleted it on account of his controversy with Celsus.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      There is much debate about which text type family is right. Many scholars believe and defend each. I was taught by one of the foremost who denied it being there. Bruce Manning Metzger.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      much debate – we can have it in a separate OP

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day among Pentecostals, especially, there should be no debate. Bart Erhman uses this supposed corruption to launch his attack on the Scriptures. Shame on Pentecostals for following the liberal biblical scholarship.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      So yes I am very aware. i was also taught by Robert Lyons. It is good to have a variety of teaching. Very interesting too. I read a lot of Daniel Wallace now.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton Yes, I have discussed this with Dan Wallace. He was red faced and had no answer.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams Bart Erhman !!! Read Wallace and others as they take this pop linguist (at best) to task. Michael J. Kruger, Tim Jones, Edward Andrews, Jeff Blevins, Gregory Koukl and so many more in Academia. Erhman is only dangerous as he sells a lot of book giving people reasons not to believe the bible (they already accept his verbiage before they read it and don’t check his so called scholarship). He has faulty research, double talk and a penchant for exaggeration. In true centers of learning, he isn’t given the time of day. He appeals to and targets those who don’t or won’t learn the languages and proper apologetics.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams you nailed it on Erhman and his blind followers. He just made popular and in a basic form, traditional views of liberals.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton Nonsense! Have you read Bart’s ‘Misquoting Jesus’? I also know most of those scholars you mention. As I mentioned to Dan Wallace, ‘You violate here the number one principle of text criticism: the most difficult reading is the original!’

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams I never said that. I have read the fluff piece by Bart.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton No wonder Bart is so effective with Christians. Look what they are being taught even in their own seminaries.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams you are just saying vague statements. Explain yourself.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton you are making an ad hominem argument against Bart. But you are avoiding the fact that these evangelical scholars, as Bart once was, are giving him the argument.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton I don’t think you are a serious scholar. All that you have done is give opinions of scholars who agree with your and Bart’s attack on the Scriptures.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams and you are hiding behind that. Please go into detail. That is no attack. Don’t counter by another ad hominem but actually state a case. You have not giving one factual thing. You just post all this double talk hoping it will bully others. Now present a case on facts instead of wild and general thoughts. You declare yourself in the know. Please prove it. Thank you

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams another attack to avoid giving 1 fact. Instruct me with your facts and not attack me. I am beginning to see that you can’t.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton I gave you the number one principle of text criticism as the basis for the originality of this text. Also the quote of the earliest church fathers. You offer nothing but the opinions of your favorite scholars. So stop accusing me of just what you are doing.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams you gave a principal and not a fact and I bet you read that somewhere. There is a difference. Stick to cutting and pasting Jesse Morrell. At least he gives the facts of the bible.

      Here is a scripture for you.

      For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Gal 6:3

      Even if you lie just to yourself, it is still a lie Phil. Take your pseudo-intellectualism elsewhere. Good bye Phil. Come around when you can give one reasoned fact.

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    the modern minister is neglecting his Greek New Testament because he is becoming less interested in his New Testament in general—less interested in his Bible. The Bible used to be regarded as providing the very sum and substance of preaching; a preacher was true to his calling only as he succeeded in reproducing and applying the message of the Word of God. Very different is the modern attitude. The Bible is not discarded, to be sure, but it is treated only as one of the sources, even though it be still the chief source, of the preacher’s inspiration. Moreover, a host of duties other than preaching and other than interpretation of the Word of God are required of the modern pastor. He must organize clubs and social activities of a dozen different kinds; he must assume a prominent part in movements for civic reform. In short, the minister has ceased to be a specialist. The change appears, for example, in the attitude of theological students, even of a devout and reverent type. One outstanding difficulty in theological education today is that the students persist in regarding themselves, not as specialists, but as laymen. Critical questions about the Bible they regard as the property of men who are training themselves for theological professorships or the like, while the ordinary minister, in their judgment, may content himself with the most superficial layman’s acquaintance with the problems involved. The minister is thus no longer a specialist in the Bible, but has become merely a sort of general manager of the affairs of a congregation. –J. Gresham Machen

    • Link Hudson
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Link Hudson

      I wonder what the author thinks about DMins.

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      they are very diminic

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Link Hudson what author?

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Troy Day

      exactly

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Link Hudson if you are talking about the article I posted above, the author’s name is J. Gresham Machen. he basically saved the church of the liberalism (higher criticism) of the 1920’s . He wrote the still definitive book on the Virgin Birth, Christianity and Liberalism, the still used beginner’s Greek book and many others. Concerning his view on D.Mins. well he preferred the accepted Terminal Degree as do most academic schools. Ph.D. or Th.D. He was the biggie in conservative christian education of the first half of the 20th century. Your buddy Don Bowdle used his book as did French Arrington.

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Phillip Williams do you hesitate to give facts instead of personal attacks for any reason. Your case seems based on supposed knowing of writers and that I am no scholar. I have not seen 1 fact to back up anything you say. Please obey 1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Where did the learned Mr. Philip Williams go?

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Maybe he is doing a quick read of some real scholar.so he can parrot him. Cut and paste is powerful.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton you hypocrite! You are doing precisely what you accuse me of doing.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams more of the same and failure to give one fact. Enough of this ignorance. You are not fooling anyone.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton what! Are you denying that the earliest fathers are quoting this passage? Dan Wallace acknowledges this fact.

    • Tim Dalton
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Tim Dalton

      Philip Williams Now you quote from others. You denounced me for that. If you had actually read my earlier posts before you went on a tirade, you would know I am open to both text types. I just need to make sure which is right. Good day sir and please learn to follow this as your actions show that you either don’t know it or you are in disobedience to it. Now goodbye.

      James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation of a party in a trial to produce the evidence that will prove the claims they have made against the other party. In a legal dispute, one party is initially presumed to be correct and gets the benefit of the doubt, while the other side bears the burden of proof.
    The “learned” Mr. Williams has failed to even begin establish his case. It is so sad. Perhaps since this is in Hebrew the “learned ” Mr. Williams doesn’t know it.

    The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17

    • Philip Williams
      Reply February 16, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Tim Dalton is joining those attacking and creating doubts about the Scriptures. If I point this out, he attacks me and then offers a nostrum that he doesn’t follow.

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Phillip Williams – is it your pride that forces you to come back with the same attacks and no proof. I will say this with grace and kindness. Stop it as your are embarrassing yourself with your tirades and temper tantrums. You have lost your credibility and your witness with your continual insulting and failure to present any thing of substance. Man have some integrity.

    “Stolen water is sweet,
    And bread eaten in secret is pleasant.” Proverbs 9:17

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    2nd Corinthians 10:4-5 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. ; (5) Casting down imaginations ,and every high thing that exalted itself against the Knowledge Of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (Praise) is a powerful way to bring down strongholds. ( Intercessory Prayer ) can break demotic strongholds.

  • George Hartwell
    Reply February 16, 2019

    George Hartwell

    The problem of what ‘binding’ means in Matthew 18 is not trivial because it is one of the verses that supports unhealthy spiritual warfare.

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 16, 2019

    Troy Day

    no war or warfare. is healthy – not even spiritual ones

  • Joe Absher
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Joe Absher

    Unfortunately the biggest stronghold is pride it’s not demons at all.
    …just saying

    • Troy Day
      Reply February 17, 2019

      Troy Day

      aint pride caused by demons straight from satan who was first prideful before the fall and brought it in creation?

  • Troy Day
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Troy Day

    Tim Dalton how did you get the JFK shooting to relate to spiritual strongholds ? Even Rick Warner dont know that

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I will agree with both of those statements. Where it started from in my opinion. The Bible says pride goeth before destruction. , and a haughty spirit before a fall.

  • Rick Warner
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Rick Warner

    Tim Dalton wow impressive creative writing, but i guess that is what it takes to be a lawyer.big fancy works. However, YOU really have no clue to who or what i am from my profile, because i made it that way. You have no clue to what my relationship with Jesus is, You have no clue to what i know about Greek or any parts of the Word of God. Simply put, you have no clue about me. Your HONOR, Defense rest.

  • Tim Dalton
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Tim Dalton

    Rick Warner I don’t read your comments anymore so you should stop. I want to discuss issues with those who have given serious thought and looked deeply into a matter before they speak. No offence to you, but our conversing isn’t pertinent to me. God bless.

  • Rick Warner
    Reply February 17, 2019

    Rick Warner

    Tim Dalton that is a broad statement concerning me to not have serious thoughts…can u back that up with evidence?

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