Why I believe the Rapture is Pre-trib

Why I believe the Rapture is Pre-trib
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Why I believe in the Rapture taking place at Pre Tri………

THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH

We mean by the rapture of the church the catching up of all true believers in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. This event is simply and clearly predicted in 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; John 14:1-3; Luke 21:34-36; Col. 3:4 and other passages we shall give below. One reading of these passages will prove that there is to be such an event as the lord descending from Heaven to take out of the world, in a moment of time, all the dead and living in Christ. In fact, it would be hard to understand how even one person could fail to understand such a doctrine if he will be honest and believe what is plainly written in these passages. For example, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 says, “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: . . . Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” In view of such plain language a person would have to arbitrarily deny what is written, or else believe that this event will happen just as it is plainly stated here. Surely there is no room for misunderstanding, so it is obvious that if one does not believe in the rapture it is because he does not believe the Bible. The rapture of the church is called “the coming of the Lord” but never the second coming of Christ. At the rapture Christ does not appear visibly to those on the Earth but He comes in the air above the Earth to catch up or rapture the dead and living saints who rise together to meet the Lord in the air. There are many different ideas about these two comings of Christ, which have made it difficult to distinguish one coming from the other. There are so many Scriptures that have been misapplied to the one or the other coming that one might readily see why many have found themselves involved in difficulties, from which they are unable to clear themselves. The rapture is purely a New Testament doctrine and was first revealed to Paul as a special revelation (1 Cor. 15:51-58), while the second coming of Christ is not only a New Testament doctrine, but is one of the chief themes of the Old Testament, as we shall see in Lesson Forty-nine. The Old Testament prophets never saw the New Testament Church, much less the rapture of the church. The rapture should never be called the second coming or second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the Earth at that time. Also, it should never be referred to as one stage or phase of the second coming of Christ, for, at that event, the Lord does not remain in the air during tribulation and then complete the second stage of His coming to the Earth by coming literally to be among men, as some teach. The rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God (John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17). Ministers often complicate the doctrine of the rapture for people by stating that many signs must be seen and many prophecies must yet be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ, and then, at the same time, they make statements that He might come tonight or at any moment. How could Christ come at any moment and yet cannot come until certain events happen? If these ministers would not have left the impression that the rapture was a part of the second advent, that the rapture could take place at any moment, and that the second advent could not take place until these signs and prophecies were fulfilled they would not have left a contradictory idea in the minds of the people. These two comings cannot be mixed if the doctrine of each is to be clear. The Scriptures that apply to one coming do not apply to the other. Not one of the passages under the second advent in Lesson Forty-nine refers to the rapture, and not one of those listed below refers to the second coming, as can be seen upon examination of them. There is not one passage in the Bible that refers to both events as if they were one. They are two distinct comings separated by several years and not two phases or stages of one coming. The rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests (Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5). This seems clear from the facts that the saints are judged, are given their rewards, and partake of the marriage supper in Heaven and not in the air (Rev. 19:1-10; 2 Cor. 5:9-10). Christ departs from Heaven at His second advent to Earth and not from the air (Rev. 19:11-21; 2 Thess. 1:7-10). The rapture must first take place and Christ must first come for His saints (1 Thess. 4:16-17) before He can come back to Earth with them (Jude 14; Zech. 14:5). At the rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air or earthly heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air. At this event the Lord is not to be raptured, but the saints. At the second coming, the saints are not to be raptured and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, whereas the second advent takes place after the tribulation. The rapture may occur any moment. The second advent cannot occur until all the signs in Lesson Forty-four come to pass and certain prophecies are fulfilled. We have separated these two comings, as they should be separated, for the sake of clearness and because they are always distinct in Scripture. The following points will help the reader to distinguish the rapture from the second coming and give him a scriptural understanding of this New Testament revelation.

I. The Fact and Manner of the Rapture We need not be ignorant concerning this subject because it is fully and clearly revealed in many passages of the New Testament. The fact and manner of the rapture are clearly revealed in the following Scriptures: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36), “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3), “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, . . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58),, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27), “For our conversation is in heaven- from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21), “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:13-17), “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him…. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:1, 7, 8). See the other passages on the rapture (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 3:11; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 5:9, 23; Col. 3:4; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4). Not one of the above passages refers to the second advent. We shall not use any verse in Matt. 24 and 25 in connection with the rapture, for there is not one verse in these chapters which refers to the rapture, as will be seen in Lesson Forty-four. We shall deal only with those passages which refer to the rapture and which can be consistently explained only in this connection. There are two Greek words used in most of the passages on the rapture as follows: 1. Parousia means personal coming or appearance and is used of both the rapture and the revelation of Christ. At the rapture, Christ appears personally in the air to meet the saints, while at the second advent He appears personally to mankind on the Earth with His saints. This word parousia is generally translated coming, hence the rapture and the revelation are both called the coming of the Lord but they are two different comings, and for two different purposes. The word is used of the rapture in 1 Cor. 15:20-23; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28. All these passages clearly refer to the rapture, but 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1 are used by some in connection with the second advent. It is clear that 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23 refer to the time when the Father pronounces the saints “blameless” before His throne in Heaven after Christ has first met the saints in the air and has taken them to Heaven and presented them “before God,” and therefore these do refer only to the rapture. “The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints” in these passages refers only to the time of His coming back to Heaven with the saints at the time of the rapture, and not at the time of the second advent (l John 3:1-3- Phil. 3:21; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23; Col. 3:4). The last reference (2 Thess. 2:1) refers to the rapture also, as is proved from the Greek esposunagoge, which means a complete collection or gathering of all the living and dead in Christ from all parts of the Earth, and out of all denominations and dispensations to meet Christ in the air. We are gathered “unto him” at the rapture and not at the second advent (Luke 21:34-36; John 14:1-5; 1 Cor. 15:51-58 2 Cor. 5:1-8; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 2 Thess. 2:6-8). In Phil. 3:11 the rapture is called “the resurrection of the dead, or literally, “the out-resurrection”; that is, the resurrection from out among the dead. The term “resurrection of the dead” is frequently used in the New Testament and includes the resurrection of the just and unjust (John 5:29; Acts 24:19). The “out-resurrection” is used only in Phil. 3:11 and implies the resurrection of some men, the just from the unjust (Rev. 20:4-6). The dead “rise first,” then the living who are saved will be “caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:13-18). All the above passages, as well as those below on the rapture, can bc easily harmonized by the student if he will keep in mind these few thoughts on the subject. 2. Phaneros, which means to shine, be apparent, manifest, or be seen, is used in 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4; Col. 3:4. The English translation is appear and means that Christ is to appear to the saints in the air at the rapture. He will not appear to the world until His second coming (Heb. 9:28). The rapture will include Old Testament saints and the church saints who are saved in the scope of redemption from Adam until the rapture, as explained above (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 2 Thess. 2:1). We do not mean to say that the scope of redemption ends with the rapture, for it is eternal, as we shall see in Lessons Forty-nine through Fifty-two. The “trump of God” (1 Thess. 4:16) is not the same as the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11:15; 13:18. One occurs at the rapture of the church and the Old Testament saints (1 Thess. 4:16), while the other is at the rapture of the manchild (Rev. 11:15 -12:5); one is the trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16), the other is the trumpet of the seventh trumpet angel (Rev. 11:15); one is to herald one single event which takes place “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:51-58). the other is to herald many events which are days in duration (Rev. 10:7); one is a trumpet of blessing (1 Thess. 4:16-17), the other is a trumpet of “woe” (Rev. 8:13; 11:15; 12:12); one is before the beginning of the Seventieth Week (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 4:1), the other is in the middle of the Week (Rev. 11:15 -12:6); one is before the saints, represented by the twenty-four elders who are caught up in Rev. 4:1, as proved in Point VII below, the other is after the elders are already in Heaven (Rev. 11:15-12:5); one is before the seven seals and first six trumpets (Rev. 6:1 – 9:21), the other is after them (Rev. 11:15). Thus we do not need to confuse this trumpet and rapture with the seventh trumpet and rapture of the manchild.

II. The Purpose of the Rapture The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things [of Matt. 24,25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28] that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36). This passage is practically the same in essence as John 14:1-3. These two passages (Luke 21:34-36; John 14:1-3) are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the rapture. Jesus did not reveal this mystery. It was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape. Now in the light of the mystery revealed we can see that the rapture is what Christ had in mind when He spoke of some being worthy to escape these things. The Thessalonians were taught that they could expect the living to be taken out of the world, but some were confused as to whether the dead believers would have a part in the rapture, so Paul explained in his first epistle that both the living and the dead would be caught up to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-18). In this passage we have the purpose of the rapture expressed “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” It is to enable the saints to escape the tribulation days and serve God in all eternity in whatever capacity He chooses. This rapture before the beginning of the Week is the first of a series of raptures that will take place during the first resurrection. Besides this rapture there will be the rapture of the manchild in the middle of the Week (Rev. 7:1-3; 12:5; 14:1-5), the rapture of the great multitude of tribulation saints (Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 15:2-4; 20:4-6), and the rapture of the two witnesses at the end of the Week (Rev. 11:3-13). The teaching of more than one rapture is not only required and stated in the above passages, but necessary to make clear what Paul meant when he said, “every man in his own order” (1 Cor. 15:20-23). The Greek for “order” is Magma and occurs only here in the New Testament. It is used in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament) of a body of soldiers and a whole army (Num. 2:2; 2 Sam. 23:13). It means a company or body of individuals. In order for every man to be raptured din his own order” or company there must be different companies of redeemed people saved and raptured at different periods. This is protest by the following facts: 1. The Old Testament Saints. John the Baptist completed this company (Matt. 11:1-12; Luke 16:16; John 3:29). In these passages both Jesus and John recognized it as being separate from the church saints. (See also Acts 7:38; Heb. 11:1-4; 12:1.) 2. The Church saints. Such passages as Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 12:27, 28; Eph. 1:20-23; 2:14-22; 4:12-16; 5:21-32; Col. 1:18, 24 prove that the church of the New Testament did not begin before Christ’s ministry on Earth, for He is the head and founder of it. 3. The 144,000 Jews are identified as a separate company from any others in Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4; 14:1-5. (See also Isa. 66:7-8; Dan. 12:1.) 4. The great multitude of tribulation saints are proved to be a company distinct from the above three in Rev. 6:9-ll; 7:9-17; 14:13; 15:2-4; 20:4-6.

The Purpose of the Rapture May Be Summed Up Thus: 1. To receive the saints to Himself (John 14:1-3; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1). 2. To resurrect the dead “in Christ” from among the wicked dead (1 Cor. 15: 21-23, 51-58; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; Phil. 3:11, 20, 21; Rev. 20:4-6). 3. To take the saints to Heaven where they will receive judgment for works done in the body, receive their rewards, and partake of the marriage supper ( John 14: 1- 3; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:1-11). 4. To change the bodies of saints from mortality to immortality (1 Cor. I 5:21-23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; 2 Cor. 5:l-8). 5. To present the saints before God the Father to be forever with Him (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:13-17; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1; John 14:1-3). 6. To make the saints “whole” in body, soul, and spirit (2 Thess. 3:13; 5:23). The Greek word translated “unto” in 1 Thess. 5:23 should have been translated “at” to make the passage clear, in the same way it is translated in 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13. 7. To receive the fruit of the early and latter rain (James 5:7). 8. To cause the saints to escape the tribulation and “all these things,” and stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thess. 2:7, 8; Rev. 4:1; 2 Thess. 5:9). 9. To remove the hinderer of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:1-8). 10. To permit the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:1-8).

III. Qualifications for Partakers in the Rapture The qualifications for partakers in the rapture are also revealed in the above Scriptures. The one and only necessary requirement for men, whether they are dead or alive, is to be “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Cor. 15:23; Gal. 5:24) These qualifications are expressed in a ninefold way in Scripture. One must: 1. Be “Christ’s” (1 Cor. 15:23; Gal. 5:24). 2. Be “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17; 2 Cor. 5:17). 3. Be “blessed and holy” (Rev. 20:4-6; Heb. 12:14). 4. “Have done good” (John 5:28, 29). 5. Be in “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:1-6). 6. Be “worthy” (Luke 21:34-36). 7. Be in “the church” or “body of Christ” (Eph. 5:27; 1 Cor. 12:13). The body of Christ and the church are the same (Eph. 1:22, 23; Col. 1:18, 24). 8. Purify “himself, even as he is pure” ( l John 1:7; 3:2, 3; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 5:16-26; Heb. 12:14). 9. Be without spot or wrinkle . . . and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27). If one has met these scriptural qualifications, what more could he do? This implies that a person going up in the rapture is walking “in the light as he is in the light” ( l John 1:7; 2:6, 9-11; 3:8-10; 5:4, 18). Being “in Christ” means that one is a “new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 5:17, 18). To belong to Christ means that they “have crucified the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) with the affections and lusts” (Gal. 5:24). This means they are good, holy, blessed, and free from the sin business. What better qualifications for the rapture could God require? It will be noticed that these nine points on qualifications are quoted from Scriptures definitely dealing with the rapture of the church. If there were other qualifications or those that were more definite and important, wouldn’t they have been stated in the passages on the rapture in the place of these that are given? We conclude that it is not receiving other experiences, whatever they may be, or however scriptural they may be, that qualifies one to go up in the rapture, but it is the maintenance of a holy walk in “Christ” at the time of the rapture, or at the time of death as the case may be. Why should some be protected while others have to go through the tribulation and be martyred? This is easily answered when we consider that at the rapture every one in Christ is taken up and there are no real Christians left at that moment. Those who are martyred in the tribulation are those who have refused to walk in the light and live “in Christ” and are not ready to go at the time of the rapture, else they would go as well as all others in Christ (1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:23). They are saved after the rapture (Acts 2:16-21), having realized by then their mistake of not heeding the many warnings to be ready at any time. They will become determined to be faithful even unto death, which will be their only prospect of having a part in the first resurrection. Those who are not martyred but are taken through the tribulation and are on Earth at the second coming of Christ will be permitted to enter the Millennium as an earthly people, and they will be a part of the subjects of Christ’s kingdom over whom the raptured saints will reign forever (Matt. 13:41-43; 25:34, 46; Isa. 2:1-4; 9:6-7; Luke 1:32-35; Rev. 5:10; I1:15; Dan. 2:44-45; 7:13-14).

IV. The Time of the Rapture The time of the rapture, like the second advent, is not definitely stated as to the day or hour, but we do know that it will take place before the tribulation and the revelation of the Antichrist, as will be proved in Point VII below.

V. The Signs of the Rapture We may say, and be entirely scriptural, that there are no signs of the rapture as there are of the second advent. None of the signs and prophecies stated in Scripture and listed in Lesson Forty-nine as happening before the second coming of Christ ever refer to the rapture. There never was a sign stated that had to come to pass nor a prophecy to be fulfilled before the rapture. The rapture could have taken place in the past, at any time since and it can take place at any time now, or in the future, without a sign or prophecy having to be fulfilled. If there are certain prophecies to be fulfilled before the rapture, then we must look for those events to be fulfilled first instead of looking for the rapture. It is possible that some of the above signs and prophecies may come to pass before the rapture, but that remains to be seen. We do know by certain indications, that some of the prophecies are now beginning to be fulfilled, thus showing us that the second coming is very near. And if the second coming is near, the rapture is nearer, for the rapture will take place at least seven years before the revelation, as we shall see below. The rapture can take place any time, as proved by the fact that the early Christians were looking for the rapture in their day (Phil. 3:20-21; Titus 2:13). They did not make one statement that certain events must take place before the rapture, so all the modern theories are wrong that teach that certain signs must come to pass, that certain prophecies must be fulfilled, that the Antichrist must first come, that the tribulation must come first and be completed, and that a revival must first come to get the church ready for the rapture. This is altogether out of harmony with the doctrine of the rapture, as taught in the Scriptures above.

VI. The Lord’s Comings Are Practical Doctrines The two comings of the Lord (the rapture and second advent) are some of the most practical and fruitful doctrines in Scripture. They are real incentives to holiness (1 John 3: 1-3), profitable in exhorting to watchfulness and faithfulness (Matt. 24:25; 1 John 2:28), patience (James 5:7,8), death to self (Col. 3:3-5), endurance (1 Pet. 1:7; 4:13), holy conversation and godliness (2 Pet. 3:11-13), soberness anal righteousness (Tit. 2:11-13), consolation (1 Thess. 4:13-18), blamelessness (1 Cor. 1:4-8), pastoral diligence and purity (1 Pet. 5:1-4), sincerity (Phil. 1:9, 10), mildness (Phil. 4:5, 6), and hope (1 Cor. 15). The rapture will be to the saints the beginning of eternal and ever increasing joy and glory. The second coming will be to Israel and all righteous earthly nations the beginning of eternal and ever increasing blessing and favor.

VII. Reasons for the Rapture of the Church in Rev. 4:1
We believe that the church and the Old Testament saints will be raptured in fulfillment of the book in Rev. 4:1, that this is foreshadowed by the bodily ascension of John to Heaven, and that those raptured are represented in Heaven by the twenty-four elders throughout the remainder of Revelation. We give as proof the following:
1. There is a marked change in God’s attitude toward humanity in general, from that of mercy (Rev. 1-3) to that of judgment, (Rev. 6-19). Rev. 4-5 pictures the raptured church and Old Testament saints with God in Heaven before the tribulation. We know that from the inauguration of the church until its rapture is a period of extended mercy and leniency without judgments from Heaven, but from the rapture until and including the second advent of Christ, judgments are predominant. The seals and the first six trumpets (Rev. 6:1-9:21) take place in the first three and one-half years of the Week, or the lesser tribulation. The sixth seal and the whole seven trumpets reveal terrible judgments on Earth from Heaven as do the seven vials during the last three and one-half years of the Week, or great tribulation. The infernal designs of Antichrist inspired by the dragon and the satanic prince of Grecia out of the Abyss (Rev. 11:7; 17:8) constitute this latter tribulation which calls forth the vial judgments of God. The evil designs of the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome, before the Antichrist gains control of the ten kings and destroys the whore (Rev. 17:12-17), cause the lesser tribulation which calls forth the judgments of God in the sixth and seventh trumpets. The judgments themselves in either part of the Week do not make the tribulation. They are sent because of the tribulation.
Scarcely anyone admits that the church will undergo the tribulation. Some who believe that the church is not caught up until the middle of the Week make the mistake of placing the fulfillment of the seals and trumpets in the last three and one-half years, in order to correspond with their conviction that the church is not here during that time.
It is true that the church will not undergo the seals and trumpet judgments, but to take them out of the first three and one-half years and place them in the last three and one-half years in order to prove that the church escapes them, is out of harmony with the plain consecutive order of the Revelation. It is a fact that the church will not undergo the seals and trumpet judgments, but it is also a fact that these judgments happen in the order in which they are given from the beginning to the middle of the Week when the seventh trumpet blows and the manchild is caught up. These events prove that the church will be raptured in Rev. 4:1 before the beginning of the Week and could not be the manchild which is raptured in the middle of the Week. If this is true, then the manchild is not a symbol of the church. It seems inconsistent to take the seals and trumpets out of their proper place in the first three and one-half years and put them in the last three and one-half years of the Week, when that is not the order in which they are given.
It is generally admitted that the events of Rev. 11:15-13:18 Will take place in the middle of the Week, and it is also admitted that the seventh trumpet will blow in the middle of the Week, as we have proved in Lesson Forty-one. If this is understandable, then why is it not true that the events of the seven seals and the first six trumpets take place during the first half of the Week and before the seventh trumpet which blows in the middle of the Week? Did not God give them in logical order as He said He was going to do (Rev. 1:1, 19; 4:1)? If the seven seals and the first six trumpets should take place after the seventh trumpet, and the seventh trumpet is to be fulfilled in the middle of the Week, then the seventh trumpet would not be the seventh trumpet at all, but would become the first. The fact that the seals and the trumpets reveal terrible conditions on the Earth and judgments of God from Heaven on men during the first three and one-half years, proves that there is tribulation during that time. If the church does not go through these things or any part of the tribulation then she must be raptured before they start at the beginning of the Week in Rev. 4:1. We conclude, therefore, that Rev. 4-5 pictures the raptured saints with God, represented by the elders and that Rev. 6-19 pictures the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, as made clear in Lesson Forty-one.
2. If the natural divisions of the book of Revelation are to be understood as clearly stated in Rev. 1:19 and 4:1 there can be no alternative but that the rapture takes place as set forth in Rev. 4:1. Why then should we place the rapture in Rev. 12:5? If the expression “the things which must be hereafter”; that is, after the churches, is literal and applies to Rev. 4:1 where it is given, then it cannot apply to the middle of the Week in Rev. 12:5. If the third division of the book of Revelation is from the middle of the Week on, as taught by some, why is it given in the beginning of the Week?
3. The words “church” or “churches” are never mentioned in the book of Revelation after Rev. 3:22, except in the conclusion after the revelation of the “things which must be after the churches” (Rev. 22:6-21). If the church is to be on Earth during the Week, it surely would have been mentioned in connection with some of the events of Rev. 4:1-22:5. The words “church” and “churches” are used nineteen times in Rev. 1-3. Why are these words used so often in the chapters dealing with the churches and they are not used one time in the chapters that deal with things after the churches, if the church is on Earth during the fulfillment of Rev. 4-22?
4. The enthroned elders are representative of the raptured saints and they are always seen in Heaven after Rev. 4:1, as is seen in Lesson Forty-one.
5. There can be no Scripture produced to show that the church is on Earth during any part of the Week, or during the fulfillment of Rev. 4-22.
6. An individual is recognized and identified by his features and characteristics. A body of individuals is also identified by its peculiarities. So in this case, if the church is to be seen on Earth during the fulfillment of Rev. 4-19 we must see her earmarks. Blot such are not to be found. On the other hand, evidence of Israel is seen everywhere in the book after Rev. 4:1, a fact more striking, since Israel is not mentioned at all in Rev. 1-3. This shows that the two different institutions are dealt with in different parts of the book; first, the church to the time of its rapture (Rev. 1-3); second, Israel after the rapture of the church to the second coming of Christ (Rev. 6-19). The book of Revelation is written in Greek, but its thoughts and idioms are Hebrew. This links it with the Old Testament and shows that its great purpose is to declare God’s final dealings with the Jews. The Hebrew character of the book after Rev. 3 is seen as follows:
(1) In Matthew, the Hebrew Gospel, there are about ninety-two quotations from and references to the Old Testament. In the epistle to the Hebrews there are 102. In Revelation there are about 285. This emphatically gives the book a close relationship with the Old Testament and Israel.
(2) The word “Lamb” is used of Christ twenty-seven times after Rev. 1-3, but not once in this section relating to the churches. It is never used in the Pauline Epistles to the churches. Outside of Revelation the word “Lamb” is used only in John 1:29, 36; Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19 and always in connection with the Messiah of Israel, and as the antitype of all the Jewish sacrifices.
(3) “The Lion of the tribe of Judah” and “the Root of David” (Rev. 5:5) show the same Jewish connection as the “Lamb” above.
(4) The 144,000 persons of Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-5 are Jewish.
(5) The events of the seals, trumpets, and vials will be a partial repetition of the plagues upon Egypt and for the same purpose, that of judging the nations for their treatment of Israel. Such will complete the fulfillment of scores of prophecies concerning Israel and her enemies in the latter days. No prophecies of such plagues were ever stated to fall upon mankind for their treatment of the church or Gentile Christians.
(6) The tribulation will primarily concern Israel, and, as it will last throughout Rev. 6-19, Israel is the one dealt with in these chapters.
(7) Daniel’s Seventieth Week will include the fulfillment of. everything in Rev. 6-19, after the rapture of the church. The Seventieth Week will concern Israel as did the first sixty-nine weeks. The Church Age, as is generally admitted comes in between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks and not between the sixty-ninth and the last half of the Seventieth Week. It seems preposterous to believe that the Church Age is parenthetical and due to come in between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks and at the same time believe that the church will be raptured in the middle of the Seventieth Week. Both cannot be true. Can it not be seen that God pursues the same policy in the Seventieth Week, that of dealing with the Jews, as He did in the first sixty-nine weeks, since all seventy of the weeks were determined upon Israel (Dan. 9:24)? Is it not clear also that this excludes the church from being the woman or manchild?
(8) The “great multitude” of Rev. 7:9-17; 15:2-4 and the 144,000 Jews of Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-5 are the only companies of redeemed men seen on Earth during the whole period referred to in Rev. 6-19. It is clear that they are not the church, and since the church is not seen except as represented by the elders in Heaven, it is sure to be raptured before the fulfillment of these chapters.
(9) The ministry of the angel around the altar (Rev. 8:2-5) and “the horns of the altar” (used twenty-six times in the Old Testament and not in any church epistle) are familiar only to Israel.
(10) “The mystery of God” (Rev. 10:7), promised by the old prophets, is Jewish, for the things concerning “the days of the seventh trumpet” reveal only things concerning Israel as seen in Rev. 11-13. Such a mystery to the church was never spoken of, for the prophets did not see the church.
(11) The temple, altar, temple worship, court of the temple, Holy City, olive trees, ark of the covenant, etc., of Rev. 11, are all Jewish, as seen in Rev. 14.
(12) When “The kingdoms of this world” (Rev. 11:15) become the possession of God and Christ, the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies of national restoration will be completed. All prophecies reveal the kingdom as being Jewish with its capital at Jerusalem, as we shall see in Lesson Forty-nine.
(13) The woman and the manchild are Jewish, as will be proved in the next two lessons.
(14) The dragon and beast of Rev. 12,13, and 17 are not fit symbols in connection with the church, since it has not existed, as has Israel, throughout the length of the seven world empires represented by the seven heads. Such symbols have always been in connection with Israel, as we shall see in Lessons Forty-seven and Forty-eight.
(15) Michael (Rev. 12:7) always stands for Israel (Dan. 10:13,21; 12:1-9) and is never mentioned in connection with the church.
(16) The remnant (Rev. 12:17) is Jewish. The church or any part of it is never spoken of as a remnant, as is the case with Israel, as seen in Lesson Forty-five.
(17) Literal Babylon (Rev. 18) is spoken of as having a latter-day relationship with Israel, but it is never mentioned relative to the church.
(18) The Battle of Armageddon and the second advent (Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21) are not for the deliverance of the church but of Israel, as seen in Lesson Forty-nine.
(19) The Millennium, the New Earth, and many other things of Rev. 20-22 too numerous and detailed to mention here, will be fulfilled in accordance with scores of Jewish prophecies in the Old Testament. Other people are not to be excluded from the Millennium, but Israel is to be the head of all peoples forever. We believe, therefore, that the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1 before all these things concerning Israel come to pass.
7. There is no other place in Revelation for the rapture of the church and the Old Testament saints than in Rev. 4:1. The manchild is the only company of saints raptured from the beginning to the middle of the Week, and that company is not the church, as we shall see. The only other company of saints which is to be caught up during the Week is that of the great multitude which will be martyred during the Week. That company could never be the church. Therefore, the church is either caught up in Rev. 4:1 or never referred to in the Revelation as to its rapture. If it were to be caught up during the Week, surely it would have been mentioned in some connection in Rev. 6-19, which deal with this Week.
8. In Luke 21:34-36 we have the promise of Jesus that some will be “accounted worthy to escape all these things [pictured in Matt. 24:4-26; Luke 21:4-19] that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Who can be these worthy ones referred to, if not the living saints who are on Earth just before these things are about to come to pass? The 144,000 Jews and the great multitude cannot be the ones referred to, for they are saved and raptured after the rapture of the church, as proved in the next two lessons. If the living believers who are on Earth just before these things transpire are to go through them and undergo the judgments of the Seventieth Week this is a false hope.
9. In 2 Thess. 2:6-8 we have conclusive proof that the church will be raptured preceding the Week and before the revelation of the Antichrist at the beginning of the Week. “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time …. only he who now letteth [hindereth, Isa. 43:13; Rom. 1:3], will let [hinder] until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed” and not before.
What besides governments, the church, and the Holy Spirit is hindering the powers of darkness from having full sway and thus preventing the revelation of the Antichrist? There is nothing, so this hindrance must be one of these. Governments will be more in evidence during the coming reign of the Antichrist than now, yet it will not hinder the revelation of the Antichrist. The Spirit will not be withdrawn during the tribulation and after the rapture, as is shown in Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:17-21; Zech. 12:10; John 14:16; Rev. 7:9-17; etc. Rev. 7:9-16 proves that multitudes will be saved during the tribulation, and we maintain that no man ever has been or ever will be saved except through the ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8; 16:7-11; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 2:18; 1 Cor. 6:11; Tit. 3:5; etc.). Acts 2:16-21 proves an outpouring of the Spirit during the tribulation. Since governments and the Holy Spirit remain here during the tribulation, it follows by the logical process of elimination that the church is the hindrance referred to. That hindrance will be withdrawn for the simple reason that the church, including every person born of the Spirit, is raptured. Then the Antichrist will be revealed.
The tribulation on Earth will not affect the Spirit, so why should He go and leave the saints here who will be in desperate need of Him? How could they withstand these things and how could others be saved? After the rapture of all true believers, the Spirit who remains will save multitudes but He will not hinder the powers of darkness from carrying out their purpose in the fulfillment of prophecy. The pronoun “he” in this passage can refer to the church as well as the Spirit, for the church is spoken of as a “man” in Eph. 2:15; 4:13. The church can be called a “man” because it is the body of Christ, who is a man (1 Cor. 12:12, 13, 27; Eph. 1:20-23; 2:14-22; 4:12-16; Col. 1:18-24). Therefore, in view of the fact that the Holy Spirit is not to be taken out of the world, that the church is called a “man” and can be referred to in the masculine gender, and since it has been proved that the church will be raptured or taken out of the world, we conclude that “he who hindereth” and “is taken out of the way” is the church and not the Holy Spirit.
Thus it is clear from this passage (2 Thess. 2:7-8) that the Antichrist cannot possibly be revealed until after the church is taken out of the way. Now comes the question of whether the Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning or at the middle of the Week, then it can also be proved that the church is raptured before the beginning and not in the middle of the Week as the manchild. The following points prove that the Antichrist is revealed at the beginning of the Week:
(1) In Dan. 9:27 we have one indisputable argument that he is revealed at the beginning of the Week, for he makes a covenant for seven years with Israel and not for three and one-half years. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the Week is not a revelation of him on the scene of action, but an unfolding of what he is to do in the middle of the Week, three and one-half years after his revelation. This passage gives one of the scriptural marks by which we may know who the Antichrist is and when he is to be revealed.
(2) The white horse rider of Rev. 6:1,2, the “little horn” of Dan. 7:8-11, 20, 26; 8:23-25, and the wilful “king” of Dan. 11:35-45 are identical and show the rise of the Antichrist out of the ten kingdoms of Revised Rome at the beginning of the Week, and before the seals and trumpets of the first three and one-half years of the Week. He will conquer three of these ten kings and get power over the others in the middle of the Week when he is seen under the seventh trumpet coming out of the sea with the ten kings under his control (Rev. 13:1-8). Since the church escapes the seals, trumpets, and vials and is taken before the revelation of the Antichrist, and as he is revealed at the beginning of the Week, the church must be raptured before the beginning of the Week.
10. If the church is raptured in the middle of the Week there would be a definite time set for the rapture and we should quit looking for the rapture at any other time and look for the events which mark the appearance of the Seventieth Week. But if the church goes through the terrible events of the seals and trumpets, then the promise of Jesus that the true believers shall “escape all these things” is contradicted and Paul’s teaching that the church is caught up before the revelation of the Antichrist is also contradicted, for Antichrist is here three and one-half years before the middle of the Week. Therefore, once we understand that the church can be raptured any day and that there is no definite time set for that event, then we can conscientiously teach others that they should be ready for the rapture at any and all times.
11. In 1 Thess. 5:1-11 we have another definite promise assuring us that saints will escape the wrath which precedes the day of the Lord. “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance from this wrath] by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.” The second advent marks the beginning of the day of the Lord.
This wrath is revealed in Matt. 24-25; Luke 21; Rev. 6:1-19:21 and is to be fulfilled during the Seventieth Week. If the saints escape this wrath, the church must be raptured before the Week or in Rev. 4:1.
12. The final reasons for the rapture in Rev. 4:1 and before the Week are found in the exposition of Matt. 24-25 in Lesson Forty-four.

122 Comments

  • Reply March 13, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    because ITS THE BIBLE Gary Micheal Epping

    • Reply March 13, 2020

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Must have missed something. If ‘IT’S THE BIBLE,’ please show me where it says ‘the Rapture is Pre-trib.’

    • Reply March 13, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Gary Micheal Epping Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of tribulation

    • Reply March 13, 2020

      Gary Micheal Epping

      No, you said the Bible says the Rapture is Pre-trib. Where does it directly say that without slipin and slidin around like a greased pig.

    • Reply March 14, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Gary Micheal Epping I actually said as obvious above

      Why I believe in the Rapture taking place at Pre Trib?

      I believe the rapture is pretrib because of Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of tribulation

      These are the actual words of JESUS He does no slipin and slidin around like a greased pig

  • Reply April 10, 2020

    Varnel Watson

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Skip Fraser Mike Forfar can yall read? We need not be ignorant concerning this subject because it is fully and clearly revealed in many passages of the New Testament. The fact and manner of the rapture are clearly revealed in the following Scriptures: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36), “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3), “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, . . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58),, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27), “For our conversation is in heaven- from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21), “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:13-17), “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him…. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:1, 7, 8). See the other passages on the rapture (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 3:11; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 5:9, 23; Col. 3:4; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4). Not one of the above passages refers to the second advent.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Laurie Lombard

      THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL
      The Jews and religious leaders of the day did not permit the Messiah to finish His week (week 70), but crucified Him. The night before His betrayal and death, He took bread and broke it and said that it was His body, given for them. Jesus knew they were going to cut Him off, and He gave the other half of His week to His Church to fulfil His work in Jerusalem. The Acts off the Apostles tells us that the disciples of Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and witnessed there, until the stoning of Stephen forty-two months later.

      The seventieth week of Daniel was fulfilled about 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. Week seventy belonged to the Messiah and His Body. It was during this week that he accomplished salvation for whoever believes, and forever stopped all sacrifices and offerings for sin.
      Thus the seventieth week of Daniel does not belong to a future antichrist. Dispensational theology has paralysed the Church in an imaginary fear of something that has already taken place. Dispensational theology has used this misinterpretation of Daniel chapter 9 as the foundation for eschatology, focusing around the Great Tribulation, the antichrist, and the Rapture. Christ and His victorious work of salvation is subtly replaced with the antichrist, distracting us from the finished work of Christ, thereby turning the most victorious week in the history of mankind into a weapon of fear.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    James C. Morris

    It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. But anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Deborah Jordan

    Thank you for the article; I am going to read and study it further. One of my problems with the rapture occurring at any other time during the GT is that it does not seem to fit with God’s character….unless his wrath is indeed being poured out on the disobedient Church and backslidden Christians? The Book of Revelation does open with warnings for the Church, and, as a corollary all throughout the OT, God poured out judgement on Israel for their disobedience, idolatry in particular. (I am not of the camp that believes that “Faith” in Christ means that we can live however we want to). Could it be possible that some who call themselves Christians will not be included in the rapture; (i.e., the parable of the 10 Virgins) and thus it seems in some Scriptures to be the case?

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Ronald Burns

      Troy Day Can Pentecostals trace their roots back to the early church fathers?

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Ronald Burns Pentecost can

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Ronald Burns

      Troy Day How so? Pentecostalism isn’t the result of a reformation or church split. It started in 1901, at the earliest, by Charles Fox Parham who was never ordained. If the founder was never an ordained pastor, the Pentecostalism can’t trace its roots back to the early church fathers.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Mark August

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Michael Chapman

    “”Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬
    this is in order with revelation

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      THAT is the Second Coming…. READ the words- Gathered FROM Heaven….NOT gathered from earth! ~?Bowl Judgments end – With end of Bowls, God’s Wrath is complete @Rev16:17, ?
      ~Judgment of the Harlot @ Rev17:1-18,
      ~Babylon has fallen @ Rev18:1 – Rev19,
      ~Marriage of the Lamb @ Rev19:6, (Old and New Testament followers of God’s Word and Jesus to include the dead Tribulation Saints)
      ~Jesus returns with the multitude from Heaven on White Horses for Armeggedon at Second Coming where every eye will see Him @ Rev19:11-21, ( #Clearly, at the end of it all) Ref Matt24 as well )

      #Rev19:14 And the armies #which #were #in #heaven #followed #him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
      For context proving it is the Second Coming:Rev19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
      12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
      13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
      14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
      15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
      16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
      17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

      There is NO rapture in Matt24:29!
      Matt24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of #HEAVEN to the other.
      (Where they were for 3.5 years (+/-) AFTER the Rapture)

      Matt24 Explained – R. Breaker – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxIUpkLi7Ck

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Andrew J. Panish 1 Thes 4 – you seem to miss that one Just read the article PLENTY of verses for you to study

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Michael Chapman

      Andrew J. Panish not interested in a youtube “theologian” who is interpreting matthew 24 with bias. it clearly says after the tribulation that He returns and gathers His elect

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Troy Day Not at all – I don’t miss 1Thes4…. my outline covers the sequence of Revelation. Many other verses fit in in the proper niche- 1Thes4 relates to Rev4 and 7 which I did not add in the above- 🙂 I add many verses very often. I don’t want to overwhelm……Some just need to be omitted at times for the space. ###The end time events will unfold in the order that God gave them to John…..1Cor14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
      ~Seals Open with Four Horsemen @ Rev6:1-7, (We may be said to be in this period now)
      ~Slaughtered souls thru history cry out @ Rev6:9
      ~Seal 6 (Wrath of the Lamb) @ Rev6:12, (Proven here: Rev6:16KJV-And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and #from #the #wrath #of #the #Lamb)
      ~144000 Sealed @ Rev7, (Sealed because of the soon to come calamity)
      ~ ?#Numberless #Multitude suddenly appear in Heaven (#Rapture) ?@ Rev7:9-17, (Believers taken away from the soon to come calamities NO LATER Than the mid=point)
      ~?1st Trumpet (Wrath of God begins) @ Rev8:7, (Proven here: Rev11:18KJVAnd the nations were angry, #and #thy #wrath #is #come, ?and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Michael Chapman Gee. We might think you would be interested in a Biblical teacher – no matter if he is on a video or on a pulpit- giving the pertinent verses with explanation….. Something that we see no rapture or post-tribbers lack. Read Matt24…. There is no bias- The gathering is clearly- FROM HEAVEN. There is no rapture in Matt24!!!

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Andrew J. Panish the last trump is in office and you dont have to worry about him This does not pertain to the discussions PLS stop the political posts and stick to eschatology

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Troy Day Point out any “political” post from me….. IMO- ALL politicians are following the same a/c agenda. To equate DT with a ‘last trump’ reference in the Bible is just wrong. And is something I have never and will never do….. Maybe you meant to attack someone else?

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    The bible clearly teaches Post-Tribulation rapture.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Give those verses that you claim are so clear.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish I can easily do so if granted the patience and privilege to do so it would be a pleasure.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise 🙂 🙂 We’ll wait…..(There are No verses that clearly teach a ‘post-Tribulation’ rapture. There are No cloudy verses that teach that.)

      • Reply June 29, 2020

        Daniel Farris

        Brother Andrew,,There are verses in the Bible that DO teach a post trib rapture & many many I might add.Your just not looking in the right places.I used to be pretrib before I was shown these scriptures.The denominational Church’s have missed this revelation because they spend too much time in the new testament & very little in the Tanak or old testament if you will. This teaching is hidden in the pages of the old testament & especially in the writings of the prophets.To study this teaching which by the way coincides wonderfully with all those new testament scriptures you already know.This post tribulation teaching is called the 2nd GREATER EXODUS & is available from Monte Judah if your interested.Good studying brother,,,,Shalom!

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish Please see below where I have already easily disputed the arguments set forth on this post.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise Please see this: If all Believers will go thru the Tribulation as you believe- Please explain with verses and your best understanding: When IS this hour of testing? What IS the evil to come? Who do you think these are that
      are taken away from the very hour of testing, from the evil that is to come and from the wrath? And what do you think would be the timing?
      #It can only be the Bride of Christ (the born again believers) and the timing can only be before the time of Great Tribulation the world has ever seen. (The last 3.5 years +/- of the 7 year period after the announcement of the ‘Covenant’.)
      Just WHAT can these verses be referring to if not a taking away BEFORE the very hour of testing, away BEFORE the wrath to come, to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass?

      Isa 57:1The righteous perish, and no man lay it to heart: and merciful men are taken away,* none #considering #that #the #righteous #is #taken #away #from #the #evil #to #come.
      1Thess1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us *from* the wrath to come.
      1Thess5:9For God *hath not appointed us to wrath*, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
      Rev3:10Bcause thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee *from* the hour of temptation (testing)
      Rev 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison (Note- not ALL can be in prison), that ye may be tried; *and ye shall have tribulation ten days*:
      be thou faithful unto death (Note-as above ‘some’ is implied- not ALL will be killed), and I will give thee a crown of life.
      Romans5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
      10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
      Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the SON of man.
      *1THES4:16At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise,*
      17 *and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them*, #to #meet #the #Lord #in #the #air. *This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever*.
      18 With such thoughts as these, then, you should encourage one another.

      1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
      (13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
      (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
      (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      *1Thess4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*

      “1Cor15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

      51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

      Why the Rapture must Happen Before the Trib JD Pt 1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOg07PdJUM

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish To make it simpler you put forward your pre trib verses and I’ll dispute them easily one by one.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise You can’t. Been there many times in the last 40 years. The verses say what they say. It is not even arguable.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise Laugh as you wish. IF you COULD provide the verses, You WOULD provide the verses!

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      They say what they say but MUST be kept in proper context. When the Word of Prophecy is correctly interpreted the only logical answer is POST TRIB. (Ever heard the saying; there’s no one as blind as the one who doesn’t want to see).

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Here is a timeline I made out based on the sequence of the verses as God gave to John. Basically: Seals Open with 6th Seal being the Wrath of the Lamb. The 144000 are sealed and the
      Rapture happens. The Wrath of God happens at about the mid-point.

      The end time events will unfold in the order that God gave them to John…..1Cor14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
      ~Seals Open with Four Horsemen @ Rev6:1-7, (We may be said to be in this period now)
      ~Slaughtered souls thru history cry out @ Rev6:9
      ~Seal 6 (Wrath of the Lamb) @ Rev6:12, (Proven here: Rev6:16KJV-And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and #from #the #wrath #of #the #Lamb)
      ~144000 Sealed @ Rev7, (Sealed because of the soon to come calamity)
      ~ ?#Numberless #Multitude suddenly appear in Heaven (#Rapture) ?@ Rev7:9-17, (Believers taken away from the soon to come calamities NO LATER Than the mid=point)
      ~?1st Trumpet (Wrath of God begins) @ Rev8:7, (Proven here: Rev11:18KJVAnd the nations were angry, #and #thy #wrath #is #come, ?and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest
      give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,)
      ~5th Trumpet Angel releases locusts from Pit @Rev9:1,
      ~6th Trumpet – No longer is Interval of Time and God’s Secret Plan Completed @Rev10:1-10,
      ~2 Witnesses arrive and are martyred @ Rev11:3-14, (Robert Breaker- Who are the 2 Witnesses – https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDduIPNqw6s )
      ~7th Trumpet – Kingdom of the world is now Kingdom of the Messiah and Crowns Rewarded (or lost) at BEMA Seat to the Raptured Believers
      ~Rewards at Bema Seat @ Rev11:18 (ref 1Cor3:12),
      ~Satan & angels thrown to earth @ Rev12:7, Takes over the body of the dead anti-Christ
      ~Jews persecuted along with Trib Saints, Flee to wilderness for 3.5 years, satan wages war on all new Believers{Trib Saints} (Time of Jacob’s Trouble – final 3.5 years) @ Rev12:13-18,
      Verified here- But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that it’s desolation is near (Luke21:20)
      ~144,000 now in Heaven Rev14:1-5, Their job is complete
      ~Angels proclaim God- Babylon has fallen & warn to avoid ‘mark’ @ Rev14:6-13, satan now forces people to worship him or God by restricting buying & selling with the ‘mark’
      ~God harvests those evil for His winepress of Wrath @ Rev14:14-20, (Takes the tares that were left in the field after the firstfruits (Believers) were taken away to the Master’s barn)
      ~?Bowl Judgments end – With end of Bowls, God’s Wrath is complete @Rev16:17, ?
      ~Judgment of the Harlot @ Rev17:1-18,
      ~Babylon has fallen @ Rev18:1 – Rev19,
      ~Marriage of the Lamb @ Rev19:6, (Old and New Testament followers of God’s Word and Jesus to include the dead Tribulation Saints)
      ~Jesus returns with the multitude from Heaven on White Horses for Armeggedon at Second Coming where every eye will see Him @ Rev19:11-21, ( #Clearly, at the end of it all) Ref Matt24 as well )

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Nancy Smith-Williams

      Gavin Cruise No, the bible doesn’t teach a post-Trib rapture of the Church.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Nancy Smith-Williams Yes it most certainly does.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise You claimed – “I can easily do so if granted the patience and privilege to do so it would be a pleasure.” #Appears that you cannot do so. We have yet to see a verse from you. Opinion and rhetoric proves nothing. 🙂

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise “Yes it most certainly does.” #Stop stamping your feet and pouting – It does! I say it does! And give the verses from whatever Books you see it..

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish Give the verses so you can read them and learn or so you can dismiss them with a laugh face?

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise You claimed to give the verses that clearly prove post-trib rapture. Drop the rhetoric and give the verses! I laugh at your claims. All reasonable, serious responses with verses will be responded in like manner. (Been doing this for many years. Do your best to teach me about Post-Trib rapture…… I’ve seen them all- they all fail.) JD- Pre-Trib Rapture Proof – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OeBtQFR4M

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish Likewise. Ok agreed. I have listened to it all like you. I know all the pre trib verses that they use. Ok…The parable of the wheat and the tares. It’s Matthew 13, you read it and what conclusion must you come to? And neither of us have to wrongly interpret it as the Lord Himself interprets it for us. The disciples asked Him to explain the parable to them, and He does that. I will await your response, please try to read the entire passage. Remember the Lord interprets the meaning for us.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise Taking one verse out of context while ignoring many other verses that are specific is not rightly dividing.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise Feasts, Harvest and Rapture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP71ZEwhaGU /

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish Explain please? I realise that passage is avoided at every cost by dispensational pre trib teachers. You asked for it and I gave you it. It’s not out of context, when I am taking the Lords interpretation as truth.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      The First Fruits (All Believers at the Rapture) are harvested and taken away to the Master first thing. The tares (All unbelievers) are gathered at the end time – and left behind on the earth (the field).
      The wheat (Tribulation Saints) is separated and gathered from the tares and used as the Master sees fit. (Using a device called a Tribulum.) (Final separation is at the White Throne – the final
      gathering of the tares.) The tares are then burned in the pyre / lake of fire (as ordered by the Master).

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Nancy Smith-Williams

      Gavin Cruise Come on. Give the biblical proofs for your interpretation.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Andrew J. Panish ‘Wilt thou then that we go gather them up? But he said, no, you might uproot the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. And the Lord says the harvest is the end of the world. No mention of a pre trib rapture here. And the Lord interprets it so it can never be honestly disputed.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Nancy Smith-Williams The wheat and tares. The Lord Himself teaches and interprets it for us.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Andrew J. Panish We need not be ignorant concerning this subject because it is fully and clearly revealed in many passages of the New Testament. The fact and manner of the rapture are clearly revealed in the following Scriptures: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36), “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3), “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, . . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58),, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27), “For our conversation is in heaven- from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21), “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:13-17), “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him…. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:1, 7, 8). See the other passages on the rapture (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 3:11; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 5:9, 23; Col. 3:4; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4). Not one of the above passages refers to the second advent.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Troy Day John 14: 1-3, doesn’t prove a pre trib rapture neither does Luke 21: 34-36. You state that the above are not referring to the second advent but are pre trib passages, if that is the case, as you claim, then why does one of the verses that you used say the “last trump!!’’ how could this be the “last trump” and be as you claim a pre trib verse??? On closer prudent analysis the whole pre trib argument falls to pieces.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise (1)We are clearly told in the Bible that we are not appointed to Wrath 1Thes5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
      Rev3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee *from* the hour of testing.
      Rev 2:10, Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some]
      of you into prison, that ye may be tried; *and ye shall have tribulation ten days*: be thou faithful unto death (as above, ‘some’ is implied- Not ALL will see death, of course), and I will give thee a crown of life).

      (2)God’s Wrath starts at the mid-point mark or 3.5 years (+/-) into ‘t’ribulation/Jacob’s Trouble (it’s not called the Church’s Trouble or Believer’s Trouble or My Sheep’s Trouble) at the same time (+/-)
      as satan’s return to earth (Rev6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.
      Rev8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.)
      (3)God’s Wrath is concurrent (of course, not 100%. There will be overlap) with the Great Tribulation (starting 3.5 years after the ‘covenant’ is announced). Great Tribulation is brought by satan
      (now as the a/c) (found in Rev8 and 9) with the desecration of the Temple.

      If *ALL* (Believers and unbelievers, Lost and Saved and New Believers) are left on the earth *through* the Great Tribulation until the very end when Jesus returns to earth WITH the multitudes
      at Armeggedon, maybe the post-tribbers can explain how all SAVED Believers will avoid getting caught up in the megaquakes, volcanos, floods, exploding nuke plants and bombs, wars, floods, tsunamis,
      bloody water, food & water shortages, diseases, domestic animals turned man-killers, Islands and Mts disappearing, etc, etc of *The Wrath of God* as well as the concurrent marauding bands, tortures
      and guillotines and the marauding a/c goon squads of satan’s Great Tribulation (to say nothing of the deadly psychological trauma and physical fear suffered by SAVED Believers going *through*
      the tribulations period). Will God put a safety bubble around all Believers even though the Bible gives no indication of that? Is there a “wilderness” that God will remove ALL Believers to in order to
      escape Wrath as some believe?
      (Again- there is no Biblical indication of such event). The people fleeing to the ‘wilderness’ are the Jews in Israel who were told to come down from the rooftops and flee and not grab their garment.

      MANY people – Yes. The likely destination in the ‘wilderness’ would be Petra which could accommodate millions in relative safety but certainly NOT *all* on earth.

      Example: Hawaii will be only one of the islands (also, with mountains) that disappear as we are clearly told they will. There are millions of Believers on Hawaii. A significant supernatural action
      by God will be required to move all Believers from Hawaii (to somewhere on earth?) as it sinks. (Somehow supernaturally remove < rapture?> ALL island resident Believers at the same time to some
      point on earth? Or will He use Atlas Movers?) Will God transport them supernaturally to another place on earth and provide them all – millions! – with safety, food and necessities so they may be
      “kept safe” *THROUGH* the remainder of the Tribulation period until the “last Trump” and they are *then* removed from earth? (BTW – We are clearly told we will be kept FROM
      the ‘hour of temptation’ and not THROUGH the ‘hour of temptation’ in REV3:10.)

      This will need to be done for EVERY Believer for EVERY physical Great Tribulation/Wrath tragedy on every island from the huge Australia to the smaller but greatly populated Staten Island.
      (As well as removing Believers from every Mountain of the earth.) This is highly unlikely – No- this is so outrageous as to not be a consideration.

      In short – Will the only way for God to ‘physically’ save all those on islands and mountains from harm be to ‘rapture’ them to another place on earth that is not yet experiencing GT/Wrath calamities
      repeatedly? (*Or will it be to Heaven- once and done*).

      Since verses outlining the ‘God will move Believers supernaturally to other places on earth’ option and the ‘Atlas Movers’ option are not found in any Bible, a Rapture (clearly- in the clouds)
      from earth to Heaven at the onset of the worst of the events is the obvious action from scripture.

      Is it reasonable to assume that God would keep ALL SAVED Believers from ALL harm THROUGH the Tribulations and keep them on earth? No! (God CAN do it as He wishes, of course.)
      But it appears, logically with the least confusion (God is not a God of confusion), as well as Biblically, that His plan is to have the SAVED Believers Raptured outta here and into Heaven
      perhaps at the onset of the ‘t’ribulation and, surely, before the Great Tribulation/Wrath.

      I am open to change my view IF anyone can provide line & verse kept in context.

      Also, post-tribbers- Please explain the mechanics of and reason for the U-Turn in the sky of the post-trib raptured Believers. Raptured to Heaven but stopped short in mid-trip to
      receive the Glorified Bodies, mount the millions of white horses to return with Jesus to the finality of Armeggedon? That action is Not Biblically supported!

      MATT24:30-31 clearly says that Jesus will gather the Believers from one end of HEAVEN to the other for His return at the Second Coming. NOT from one end of earth to the other.
      The Believers are in Heaven already due to the Rapture.

      Where does the Marriage Feast fit into post-trib? Hidden in the chambers for a “little while”? When does the Bema Seat reward of crowns happen (Bema Seat is a judgment
      of the Believers)? The White Throne Judgment? Who are the numberless multitudes in Heaven at the beginning of Revelation?

      Also, If everyone is raptured after the period of Great ‘T’ribulation, does that include the now believing in Jesus Jews and Tribulation Saints who, we are clearly told, are left on earth
      in human bodies (not glorified bodies) to repopulate the earth during the Millennial Reign? Show line & verse that leaves them behind after the “post-trib” rapture.

      Post-Tribbers ignore very many verses to arrive at a “post-trib” Rapture.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Andrew J. Panish The Purpose of the Rapture May Be Summed Up Thus: 1. To receive the saints to Himself (John 14:1-3; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1). 2. To resurrect the dead “in Christ” from among the wicked dead (1 Cor. 15: 21-23, 51-58; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; Phil. 3:11, 20, 21; Rev. 20:4-6). 3. To take the saints to Heaven where they will receive judgment for works done in the body, receive their rewards, and partake of the marriage supper ( John 14: 1- 3; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:1-11). 4. To change the bodies of saints from mortality to immortality (1 Cor. I 5:21-23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; 2 Cor. 5:l-8). 5. To present the saints before God the Father to be forever with Him (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:13-17; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1; John 14:1-3). 6. To make the saints “whole” in body, soul, and spirit (2 Thess. 3:13; 5:23). The Greek word translated “unto” in 1 Thess. 5:23 should have been translated “at” to make the passage clear, in the same way it is translated in 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13. 7. To receive the fruit of the early and latter rain (James 5:7). 8. To cause the saints to escape the tribulation and “all these things,” and stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thess. 2:7, 8; Rev. 4:1; 2 Thess. 5:9). 9. To remove the hinderer of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:1-8). 10. To permit the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:1-8).

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Gavin Cruise #Where in the bible is it that we see the great tribulation, Gods wrath and the Day of the Lord?
      Rev 6 and on: The 1st Seal indicates the appearing of the a/c posing as Jesus on the white horse. Likely during the Psalm 83 War. This kicks off the ‘t’ribulations by the a/c in
      Seals 2 thru 4 in the forms of war (small global as well as riots within countries), death (starvation, etc) and plagues (man-made as we are seeing) specifically. Also small ‘t’ribulations
      will be in the form of marshall law, fuel and food shortages as well as other nwo requirements on mankind.

      The above identifies small ‘t’ribulations being set in place as the a/c still wishes to appear as the peaceful one that will solve all problems of the world. At this time and overlapping is the
      Wrath of God starting with the 6th Seal. (Or do you think that there will be a bell sounded, one phase will end and another begin as with a boxing match?)

      The 7th Seal is Wrath intensifying. So severe that Heaven is silent with awe before it begins. Likely at the halfway mark (likely 3.5 years +/- from the signing of the ‘peace treaty’)
      where satan is loosed on earth and intensifies into the Great Tribulation.

      Satan’s Great Tribulations will be on the Tribulation Saints (take the mark or die) and also on the people that do take the mark in the form of food shortages, inflation, etc.
      Any way that satan can lash out he will. Satan will not stop his Tribulation on the Saints and the world just because God is smashing the earth with Wrath. The people on earth
      will get slammed from every direction.

      Believers are told we will not see the Wrath so are Raptured/Resurrected likely at the 5th Seal and appear as the multitude that could not be numbered in the 6th Seal.

      Yes. THIS resurrection (one of several) will happen at the time of the Rapture as is clear in the Bible (1Thes4:13 – 18).

      I believe there will be an immediate resurrection of the killed Tribulation Saints. I also believe that The Last Day refers to the entire 7 year period. The Day of the Lord.

      All of the events, using earthly requirements, could not happen on ONE day. The Seal and Trumpets indications are more than one literal day.

      All the verses that you indicate are no doubt correct. It’s just that we cannot understand the timetable of God and the events.

      Refute? All I or anyone can do is look for the signs, have an idea as Watchmen of what is happening and approximately when it will happen.

      Being right or wrong in this is not a requirement for salvation. Knowing events and being prepared and helping others to spiritually prepare as it intensifies is an important thing.

      Hope for the best, but expect and prepare for the worse.

      KJV Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
      (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
      (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Troy Day Nailed it.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Paul Spencer Elliott

    //Why I believe the Rapture is Pre-trib //

    Is it because you are trying to escape reality.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      you are correct – escaping HELL for eternity was No 1 priority for JESUS coming to save us Listen closely the ESCAPE argument in the video if you even know who the speaker is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A&feature=emb_title

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Kent Anderson

      Tribulation means trouble and Christians or believers are not exempt from that…it says we are not appointed to the wrath of God, well wrath is not the same thing as tribulation

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Kent Anderson There is a difference in ‘t’ribulation and the Great ‘T’ribulation the world has ever seen / Time of Jacob’s Trouble. The Great Tribulation is clear in the verses of Rev.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    The Purpose of the Rapture May Be Summed Up Thus: 1. To receive the saints to Himself (John 14:1-3; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1). 2. To resurrect the dead “in Christ” from among the wicked dead (1 Cor. 15: 21-23, 51-58; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; Phil. 3:11, 20, 21; Rev. 20:4-6). 3. To take the saints to Heaven where they will receive judgment for works done in the body, receive their rewards, and partake of the marriage supper ( John 14: 1- 3; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:1-11). 4. To change the bodies of saints from mortality to immortality (1 Cor. I 5:21-23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; 2 Cor. 5:l-8). 5. To present the saints before God the Father to be forever with Him (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:13-17; Eph. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:1; John 14:1-3). 6. To make the saints “whole” in body, soul, and spirit (2 Thess. 3:13; 5:23). The Greek word translated “unto” in 1 Thess. 5:23 should have been translated “at” to make the passage clear, in the same way it is translated in 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13. 7. To receive the fruit of the early and latter rain (James 5:7). 8. To cause the saints to escape the tribulation and “all these things,” and stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thess. 2:7, 8; Rev. 4:1; 2 Thess. 5:9). 9. To remove the hinderer of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:1-8). 10. To permit the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:1-8). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A&feature=emb_title&fbclid=IwAR3Ru9k5gMEKuyj4Qby7pgg8kEUrqJfeU8u7Ob1rz01jl_KntOs0GFuGKeA

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Gavin Cruise Understanding the Jewish harvest explains the concept. Also, Given elsewhere in response to you….. The First Fruits (All Believers at the Rapture) are harvested and taken away to the Master first thing. The tares (All unbelievers) are gathered at the end time – and left behind on the earth (the field).
    The wheat (Tribulation Saints) is separated and gathered from the tares and used as the Master sees fit. (Using a device called a Tribulum.) (Final separation is at the White Throne – the final
    gathering of the tares.) The tares are then burned in the pyre / lake of fire (as ordered by the Master).

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Andrew J. Panish Why would I listen to a woman’s opinion/interpretation on it when I have the Lords own interpretation?

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Nancy Smith-Williams

    Gavin Cruise Obviously you are biased against the Lord’s choice as to whom He uses to proclaim His truth.

    • Reply June 29, 2020

      Daniel Farris

      Sister Nancy, I have already posted Andrew J. Parnish & Bro.Troy Day about this pretrib subject because I feel it very CRUCIAL for the Church to receive this Post Trib teaching.Like I told the other 2 brothers I was once Pretrib & so was my teacher that showed me this teaching & it’s HIDDEN in the pages of the old testament but coincides with all the scriptures that Andrew & Troy pointed out.Because it’s very serious & lengthy teaching I always refer people to Monte Judah’s The 2nd GREATER EXODUS book teaching.I’m not promoting his book but this topic was so important to me I went on his website & bought it & so glad I did because I learned things i never saw before & it sometimes takes a Bible scholar like Monte to bring this teaching to LIGHT.I have been buying this book ever since to hand out to close friend’s & family.If interested his the short version on YouTube is about 1 1/2 hrs. long. If you do the YouTube make sure it’s Monte Judah’s teaching because there are others not quite as good. Hope you learn what I learned it will prepare you for the future Rapture.Shalom,,,

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Nancy Smith-Williams Not you personally, I meant the above video.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Andrew J. Panish Strange that the Lord when explaining this and interpreting it Himself, never mentioned feasts or Jews or any earlier harvest. But only one harvest at the end.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Tammy Lindsay Exactly, “at the LAST trump”.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Gavin Cruise “Strange that the Lord when explaining this and interpreting it Himself, never mentioned feasts or Jews or any earlier harvest. But only one harvest at the end.” And- “The wheat and tares. The Lord Himself teaches and interprets it for us.” ????? Which is it…. Two back to back comments from you and they are in direct opposition in meaning…… The Feasts and the Harvest AND the Jewish Wedding events play an important part in the lessons…….

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Rapture and Jewish Wedding (JD) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4yyGBMaFjc

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Jewish Wedding Ceremony and the Rapture – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ababqSbPUvQ

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Feasts, Harvest and Rapture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP71ZEwhaGU /

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Andrew J. Panish Seriously though, are you just going to keep putting up videos of other dispensational teachers, must you always relay on others…anyone can put up videos be a student yourself. You put up as many ‘jewish wedding’ and ‘feast’ videos as you want, I have the Lords own interpretation and it flys in the face of your view. Accept it for what it is and face the facts. The Lord has made it clear. No mention of Jews, gentiles, feasts or weddings. No mention of an earlier harvest or any man made doctrine. It’s the Lords own words and his own interpretation and that’s all I require.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Gavin Cruise Seriously, though- are you going to continue to ignore or dismiss the ton of info you were given. The verses say what they say. Believe as you wish…. Out here.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Gavin Cruise

    Andrew J. Panish Same to you.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Andrew J. Panish

    Gavin Cruise We are still waiting for those “clear” verses you said you had proving post-trib rapture… 🙂

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Jessica Buchanan

    Scripture reads super clearly when the resurrection will happen. (At the last trumpet)
    “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “D EATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?””
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:52-55‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Yes. But, when IS that ‘last trump’? ~#Is it a ‘Last TRUMPET’ as you say? Or is it a ‘Last TRUMP’? …… There are many trumpets in the end days. There is great likelyhood of the rapture happening during the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). The description of the Feast fits (Occurs when no one knows the day or hour) and there is traditionally, a series of 100 Trumpet blasts with that ‘Last’ blast a special taccato series. THAT could be the ‘last trump’ referred to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82EEdYiOM4U

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Jessica Buchanan

      Andrew J. Panish It’s the last trumpet ?

      “Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “ T he kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “ W e give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”
      ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15-19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Jessica Buchanan Tieing that trumpet into the rapture is telling us that the rapture happens just before the Wrath of God. “…..You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” THIS Wrath starts at the mid-point of the 7 years. Immediately After the 6th Seal and a half hour Before the 1st Trumpet Judgment. (appropriate, eh?) Verified here: ~Seal 6 (Wrath of the Lamb) @ Rev6:12, (Proven here: Rev6:16KJV-And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and #from #the #wrath #of #the #Lamb)
      ~144000 Sealed @ Rev7, (Sealed because of the soon to come calamity)
      ~ ?#Numberless #Multitude suddenly appear in Heaven (#Rapture) ?@ Rev7:9-17, (Believers taken away from the soon to come calamities NO LATER Than the mid=point)
      ~?1st Trumpet (Wrath of God begins) @ Rev8:7, (Proven here: Rev11:18KJVAnd the nations were angry, #and #thy #wrath #is #come, ?and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest
      give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,)
      ~5th Trumpet Angel releases locusts from Pit @Rev9:1,
      ~6th Trumpet – No longer is Interval of Time and God’s Secret Plan Completed @Rev10:1-10,
      ~2 Witnesses arrive and are martyred @ Rev11:3-14, (Robert Breaker- Who are the 2 Witnesses – https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDduIPNqw6s )
      ~7th Trumpet – Kingdom of the world is now Kingdom of the Messiah and Crowns Rewarded (or lost) at BEMA Seat to the Raptured Believers
      ~Rewards at Bema Seat @ Rev11:18 (ref 1Cor3:12),
      ~Satan & angels thrown to earth @ Rev12:7, Takes over the body of the dead anti-Christ
      ~Jews persecuted along with Trib Saints, Flee to wilderness for 3.5 years, satan wages war on all new Believers{Trib Saints} (Time of Jacob’s Trouble – final 3.5 years) @ Rev12:13-18,
      Verified here- But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that it’s desolation is near (Luke21:20)
      ~144,000 now in Heaven Rev14:1-5, Their job is complete
      ~Angels proclaim God- Babylon has fallen & warn to avoid ‘mark’ @ Rev14:6-13, satan now forces people to worship him or God by restricting buying & selling with the ‘mark’
      ~God harvests those evil for His winepress of Wrath @ Rev14:14-20, (Takes the tares that were left in the field after the firstfruits (Believers) were taken away to the Master’s barn)
      ~?Bowl Judgments end – With end of Bowls, God’s Wrath is complete @Rev16:17, ?
      ~Judgment of the Harlot @ Rev17:1-18,

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Jessica Buchanan There is no other time that any believers are taken away…..That Last Trump MUST be at the mid-point. Read the verses I referenced to verify Wrath of God- Beginning (Rev11:18) and ending – (Rev16:17) …… ~Babylon has fallen @ Rev18:1 – Rev19,
      When the last trump or trumpet may be is not an issue to argue over…… Out here on this

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Jessica Buchanan

      Andrew J. Panish Can you please tell me if you believe dispensational pretribulational premillennialism or historic premillennialism?

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Jessica Buchanan

      Andrew J. Panish I’ll have to read all the posts you shared later. Thank you

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Andrew J. Panish

      Jessica Buchanan The millennial reign has no bearing on end time events including the Rapture. ALL timing of Rapture is pre-MR. Confusing tags and titles are counter-productive. The words of the verses rule. People call many different understanding by many different and confusing tags…..

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Alan Yusko

    yes.. it is true and biblical… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFTr53H9GIA

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Alan Yusko Well if a pre trib teacher says it’s pre trib then I guess it must be ?

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Kent Anderson

      well it is not as precise as he says….so much trickery here…we do not know the year Christ was born only that it was before 4 BC which is when Herod the Great died….I have seen just about every breakdown of the 69 weeks and the best guess is just a ballpark idea and then the 70th week has to be factored in….A Jesuit monk first placed that time at the end of the church age, so inone of his argument proves anything–the scriptures say what they say, people thik what they think and Mr Missler is just another thinker who believes his own mind lol

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    I just wanted to make a short post about end times prophecy. Some will disagree about The Rapture of the church, when or even if it will happen, but let’s not get hung up on that event bc most all agree with the rest. You can look these scriptures up yourself, but most of what is true has multiple scripture references, so it’s hard to just teach this in a quick, short manner. If you disagree with anything here, that’s your prerogative. I’m not looking to debate anything here bc you’re not going to change my mind. I have carefully studied this subject and have an actual diploma from and accredited university on end times, so I’m pretty set. We don’t HAVE to agree on everything bc this is NOT a salvation issue….

    God’s prophetic calendar….

    1. The Rapture. This is where there is a catching up of the Saints. I believe it occurs just before the 7 yrs of the Tribulation. Some believe it happens in the middle of the Tribulation. Some believe it really doesn’t happen at all and the only time Jesus comes for us is at the Second Coming. More on that later

    2. Immediately following the rapture, the Tribulation period starts. There will be 3 1/2 years of world peace. Israel will sign a Peace Agreement with those nations that surround it. The anti christ will broker the deal. He will be revealed, but many will be deceived about who he is. He will be worshiped as a great man of peace and prosperity.

    3. The anti christ will be promoted heavily by the false prophet. Many (including me) believe the false prophet will be the pope at that time. The antichrist will perform miracles. And he will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem, which will have been rebuilt on the Temple Mount by then.

    4.After 3 1/2 years of peace, it will suddenly become very bad. The bible says it will be like a time never before and that God in His mercy will shorten those days. There will be plagues released, wars started, indescribable torture of humanity. The anti christ will issue an edict to get chipped and do away with our money. He will set up a one world government and one world currency. Many will be behead that refuse the chip. The bible calls these ppl martyrs that are given honor in heaven. Israel will be attacked, but God will supernaturally protect them.

    5. The armies of the world will amass at Armageddon. Some (including me) believe that these armies are Islamic. I also believe the anti christ to be the 12th Imam that muslims are waiting and preparing for right now.

    6. The Second Coming…..Jesus returns from heaven with a host of Saints. He calls all believers together at that time to face off against the armies of the world. The bible says He and the Saints will be riding horses, Jesus’ horse being white. As they prepare to battle, Jesus will merely speak the Word and the army of the world will be defeated. The bible says it will be so bloody that the blood will be as deep as the horse reins and that the animals and birds will pick the carcasses for moths afterwards.

    7. Sin is defeated and a New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and sits on Jerusalem. It is 1500 miles square and high. This is the city of God. Jesus will be the light there. He will be with His people. He will assign the Saints to go govern all parts of the earth. Life will continue on, with humans still having babies and worshiping God. This is known as the Millennial Reign, and there will be peace under the one world government of Jesus, who will be a benevolent dictator. Satan will be bound during this period.

    8. Near the end of the 1,000 yrs, people will begin to get rebellious again. Satan will be loosed for a season, and there will be another great war where satan and God’s enemies are defeated.

    9. This is where some of us disagree…..I believe that at the end of that war, we will be taken up to heaven to spend eternity. Some believe that the new Jerusalem is the same as heaven. There is a text in Peter that indicates the world will be destroyed, and that’s why I believe as I do.

    10. Eternity with God, who sits on the throne and Jesus who sits at His right hand! God has given all authority over to Jesus, so it will be Jesus that we worship in the beautiful heavens! A river of life runs thru it! How, majestic it must be! Eye has not seen, ear has not heard how wonderful it will be. And there we will spend eternity!

    If that’s not enough to make you want to give your everything to Jesus, I can’t imagine what is! Call upon Him today! Christians, keep oil in your lamp! It could happen any hour now! God bless y’all!

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Steve Snyder

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Duane L Burgess

    The Bible tells me so…

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Derek Solorsano

    Okay here it goes. 1st if you actually believe that there isn’t a pre rapture then you’re reading the wrong bible, always read KJV. 2nd the church (body) (bride) belongs to Jesus Christ there’s no way he will allow his bride to go through the tribulation that’s why he’s going to save us. 3rd- the 144,000 saints are only ISREAL people Revelation 7:4 “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of (((ISREAL)))).” So there has to be a pre rapture because the church isn’t being preached anymore in the book of revelation only ISREAL is. Better start reading Paul’s gospel cus we’re in he’s time period right now NOT in the book of revelation, that’s only for Israel since everything got postponed the minute they crucified their messiah on the cross so Jesus is going to come back and deal with them later(the great tribulation) god bless amen?

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Derek Solorsano False. And I’ve always used a KJV and am not pre-trib rapture.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Derek Solorsano

      Gavin Cruise really? Then you must of not payed attention to “the day of Christ” vs “the day of the lord” which is two completely different events talked about only in the KJV Bible. Do your research before you preach false doctrine.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Derek Solorsano you can use KJV and be baptist 🙂

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Gavin Cruise

      Derek Solorsano Yes, one is used for ‘us’ (who are believers) and one is the wrath on unbelievers, which will both occur on the last day at the end of the tribulation. Plain and simple, but man in all his intelligence has to make it more complicated and divide it up and add in all different theories, different Gospels and different dispensations and speculations.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Derek Solorsano

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Derek Solorsano

    Why you only need to read the KJV Bible.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      this guy is a know it all but dont even have a degree

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Philip Williams Pentecostal biblical scholar French Arrington details the popularization of dispensationalism by John Nelson Darby and by C. I. Scofield. Arrington describes dispensationalism as “an interpretive scheme grafted onto the traditional body of Christian doctrine.” He defines it more specifically as a “basic assumption that God deals with the human race in successive dispensations.” A dispensation is a period of time
    marked by a beginning, a test, and termination in judgment through human failure or sin. Though dispensationalism has influenced Pentecostal theology, probably because of the
    avid attachment of both to eschatology, “the earliest pentecostal teachings were not tied to directly to dispensationalism.” In Arrington’s opinion, the statements of faith of major Pentecostal denominations do “commit them to premillennialism but not necessarily to dispensationalism.”

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Philip Williams James C. Morris John Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.

    The Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations that he was the antiChrist. Ironically, the Cambridge mathematician Joseph Mede developed historical premillennialism to counter Ribera and the late sixteenth century
    The Historical Premillennial view objects to pre-tribulation rapture because they do not do not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church–as seen in Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore, Historical Premmillenialsm do not beleive the “he” in 2 Thess 2:7 is the church.

    THE Darby Lacunza connection is pretty well known We have actually discussed it here somewhat – paul riviera too borrowed from Lacunza I have the detail transference of pre-Trib doctrine within the USA and in fact it was NOT via Scofiled or Darby but via the Catholic church of Latin America Scofield did nothing more than popularizing a teaching that has been already prominent in non-reformed evangelical churches like many baptists at the time

    Lacunza borrowed much from Fiore with his 3 eras of Father, Son and HS – Darby however did translate the BIBLE from original languages in French and English There is a small and not well known but very important book with his translators notes where he explains the actual BIBLE and then theology truth of his rapture findings during his double BIBLE translation I’ve tried to relate SOME of this to Link at times but it has proven to be a lost cause without basic understanding of at least Greek
    Samuel Tregelles also adopted Newton’s position against Darby and posited the view that the source of Darby’s ‘secret rapture’ theory was in fact a prophetic utterance given by one of Edward Irving’s congregation.

    I also own after much search Larkin’s original 1919 first print of his Revelation commentary It is VERY expensive and I know of only a few private owners who still have it

    BUT Larkin is NOT the earlier source I was speaking of I was speaking about Knox Fox Newton Clarke Finney George Mueller Treanch Keil Alford Ellicott and many others who before Larkin all the way to Euphem of Syria and Clement of Rome who claimed the CHURCH is taken BEFORE the rapture as most church fathers believed back then

    Then as per splitting history med. monk Joachim Fiore first split it in 3 ages There is so many one cannot count here

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      James C. Morris

      Troy Day in an appendix to my book, “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” I clearly demonstrated that this notion, though widely circulated, is not correct. His ideas actually came from a writer from a hundred years earlier, named William Lowth, and from a writer from a few years earlier, named Lewis Way.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      James C. Morris which of the many notions expressed in my post? Can you PM my the said appendix for a review pls And thank you for NOT clearing my many post I will be slowing down from this point on with 2-3 per day not to flood the group BTW I still believe that Philip Williams will argue and quite successfully too that John Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day I long ago blocked James C Morris. He is a pure dogmatist and isn’t open to anything but his dogma.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams oops sorry about that anyhow as you’ve stated before John Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    Ann Lee Berry

    Why u believe that

    • Reply June 28, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      for ALL the reasons I stated above Read them

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    Ciriaco Filog

    Pre Tribulation is the ACCURATE dispensation Rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH. GOD BLESS

    • Reply June 28, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      TRUE thou I dont believe in baptist dispensations

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    Lhoyz Baron

    I believe in Rapture because we come first to know Grace and it is not good for us to undergo great tribulation. It is not for us. We are the children of God. He loves us.

    • Reply June 28, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      stay rapture ready my friend

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    David King

    Here’s why I believe in a POST-TRIB RAPTURE.

    The Post-Tribulation Rapture Point of View

    Point ONE—The SIX similarities of I Thess. 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:30-31

    The classic Pre-Tribulation Rapture verse is the following:.

    “For the Lord himself will come down from HEAVEN, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.” (I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV)

    Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture mistakenly believe that the rapture recorded in the verse above will take place at least seven years before the “Great and Glorious Second Coming Of Christ”, which is recorded in Matthew 24 as follows:

    “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the CLOUDS OF THE SKY, with power and great glory. And he will SEND his angels with a loud TRUMPET call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the FOUR WINDS, from one end of the HEAVENS to the other.” (Matthew 24:30-31 NIV)

    It should be an embarrassment to those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to discover that these two different passages have six items in common and that they are all in the same chronological order as well.

    Common Themes I Thess. 4:16-17 Matthew 24:30-31
    1. same starting location heaven—————————-clouds of the sky
    2. same divine signal loud command——————“send”
    3. same trumpet TRUMPET———————–TRUMPET
    4. same “Rapture” caught up together————-gather his elect
    5. same final destination clouds——————————air
    6. same destination four winds————————-heavens
    (Timing according to (At least 7 years
    Pre-Tribulation Ideas) before “Doomsday”) (“Doomsday”)

    Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that the 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 prophecy will occur at least 7 years before the Matthew 24:30-31 prophecy is fulfilled.

    Now the way we tell if two different passages of Scripture are speaking about the same theme is by the number of items in common with both passages. Often we can find one, two or at the most three things in common between two passages of Scripture to confirm that two different passages of Scripture are talking about the same issue. But probably no two passages in the entire Bible have as many things in common (SIX) as these two passages, so they absolutely must be talking about the same event. Further, these six things are all in the same chronological order, again confirming that these two passages must be referring to the same event. Therefore, probably no two passages of Scripture have as great of weighty testimony of evidence that they are speaking about the same event as these two passages of Scripture. So if these two passages of scripture are not speaking about the same event (as the “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” claim), then it becomes impossible for “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” to prove that ANY other two passages in scripture are speaking about the same issue or event without requiring that all comparisons between two passages must have at least seven things in common and also be in the same chronological order. Why? Because obviously having only six things in common and in the same chronological order is not good enough proof for them any more.

    Despite this logic, Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture still mistakenly claim that these two passages are speaking of two different future Biblical events that will happen at least seven years apart.

    Point TWO—The LAST TRUMPET

    The chart below is the same as the chart above except for two changes. First, I have added the “dead in Christ rise” portion from the 1 Thess 4 prophecy. Second, since the “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” believe that the Matthew prophecy occurs LAST then the trumpet in the Matthew prophecy must also be the LAST trumpet. By default therefore, the trumpet in the 1 Thess prophecy must be the “NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET” and I have indicated this in the chart below.

    COMMON THEMES I THESS. 4:16-17 MATTHEW 24:30-31
    1. same starting location heaven———————————clouds of the sky
    2. same divine signal loud command———————–“send”
    3. different trumpet NEXT To The Last TRUMPET—LAST TRUMPET
    4. First Resurrection “dead in Christ rise”—————–not mentioned
    5. same “Rapture” caught up together——————gather his elect
    5. same final destination clouds———————————-air
    6. same destination four winds—————————–heavens
    Timing according to At least 7 years
    Pre-Tribulation Ideas before doomsday “Doomsday”

    So according to the “Pre-Trib Rapture Folks” the “dead in Christ rise” at the NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET. However, the Bible tells that that all Christians who have died up to that time will be raised from the dead at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET, not the NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET. For it is written:

    “Listen, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the TRUMPET will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NIV)

    The “Pre-Trib. Rapture” teaching mandates that the “dead in Christ” must be raised at the “NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET” and not at the “LAST TRUMPET” and so according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the Pre-Trib. Rapture position is false. The Post-Trib. Rapture position is that both trumpets represent the same, identical trumpet because both prophecies are about the same, identical event. This means that the First Resurrection and the Rapture cannot occur until after the after the “abomination of desolation” and after “the sun is darkened and the moon does not give its light and the stars fall from the sky” exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29.

    Now there are some who would say that the expression “LAST TRUMPET” is just as vague as the expression “LAST DAYS” and so cannot be interpreted as a definite single, final and last trumpet beyond which there are no other trumpets. However, the word “DAYS” in the expression “LAST DAYS” is plural and not singular (as in “LAST DAY”), and every time the word LAST is followed by a singular noun it is ALWAYS to be interpreted as single, final, terminal object or event. In fact, there are three examples of this idea in this same chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 (NIV): “LAST ENEMY”, “LAST ADAM” and “LAST TRUMPET”—“The LAST ENEMY to be destroyed is death” (verse 26), “the LAST ADAM, a life-giving spirit” (verse 45), and the LAST TRUMPET” (verse 52). Of course, since there are no enemies after the LAST ENEMY (death), and no ADAMs after the LAST ADAM (Christ), then you can be certain that there will be no other heavenly trumpets blown after the LAST TRUMPET is blown at the first resurrection. So again, since there can be no heavenly trumpet blown after the LAST TRUMPET, then the first resurrection that takes place at the LAST TRUMPET must also be the same trumpet that is blown in Matthew 24, an event that takes place AFTER the abomination of desolation and AFTER the sun is darkened, etc.!

    These two points taken together totally destroy the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory because point two can neither be refuted nor re-interpreted.

    To be continued…

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    David King

    Continuing on…

    Point THREE—The LAST DAY

    Jesus taught his followers that the dead would be raised at the LAST DAY (doomsday—the day Christ destroys the wicked), not seven years BEORE the LAST DAY. Martha mentions this teaching of Christ in the following passage:

    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again at the resurrection at the LAST DAY.” (John 11:23-24 NIV)

    Where did Martha get the idea that the dead rise at the LAST DAY (not seven years BEFORE the LAST DAY)? She got this idea from Jesus himself, as recorded in John 6, just five chapters earlier. For it is written:

    “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but RAISE them up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:39 NIV)

    “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:40 NIV)

    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:44 NIV)

    “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:54 NIV)

    Notice that Jesus tells his followers FOUR TIMES in John 6 that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY—not seven years BEFORE the LAST DAY—and Martha declares that same thing in John 11!

    So it is easy for believers in a Post-Trib. Rapture to conclude that the First Resurrection will take place on the LAST DAY—not seven years before the last day—and that the LAST DAY will be a day when the unrighteous will be destroyed, exactly as it says below in POINTS 4,5,6, & 7. But those who believe in a Pre-Trib. Rapture folks must now re-interpret the LAST DAY as the day the church is raptured. The problem with their interpretation is that after the Rapture, life on earth goes on for a short while pretty much the same as before. So it is difficult to conclude that the Rapture takes place on the LAST DAY when the day after the Rapture is essentially identical as the day before the Rapture, except for the confusion and the grief over what happened.

    Point FOUR—Those who are LEFT BEHIND are DEAD!

    Of course, if the Post-Trib. Rapture viewpoint is correct and if the resurrection takes place on the LAST DAY (DOOMSDAY: the day of Christ’s return and wrath upon the wicked), then most everyone left behind is DEAD! And Christ tells the disciples that the wicked that are left behind are indeed DEAD—and that the birds are eating their carcasses! For it is written:

    “I tell you, on THAT NIGHT two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other LEFT. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other LEFT. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other LEFT.”

    “Where, Lord?” they asked. [“Where will they be left?”]

    He replied, “Where there is a DEAD BODY, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37 NIV) [Brackets added for clarity.]

    Here Jesus tells us that the wicked that are LEFT BEHIND are not going about their usual routines after the rapture, but that instead the wicked are DEAD, and birds are eating their bodies, exactly as it says in Revelation and Ezekiel. For it is written:

    And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ”Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great …The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the BIRDS GORGED THEMSELVES ON THEIR FLESH.” Revelation 19:17-18, 21 NIV) (See also Ezekiel 39:4, 17-20)

    Of course, if the rapture takes place BEFORE the tribulation and those left behind are all dead, then there hardly anyone alive left behind for the Anti-Christ to rule over, which is one more reason why the “pre-tribulation rapture” idea is incorrect, because Christ destroys the wicked AFTER the seven year tribulation and not BEFORE!

    Point FIVE—The Day that God separates the SAVED from the DAMNED is the very same day that the DAMNED DIE!

    Jesus tells us that the very day God separated the righteous (Noah and his family) from the unrighteous (those to die in Noah’s Flood) was the very day God began to destroy the unrighteous—not seven years later! For it is written:

    “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating; drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up THE DAY Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26-27 NIV)

    So Jesus says that on the very day that God SEPARATED the SAVED from the DAMNED, that he destroyed the DAMNED—not seven years later, as some mistakenly teach as a “Pre-tribulation rapture”. It is also written:

    “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and bulking. But THE DAY Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28-29 NIV)

    Notice again that on the VERY DAY God SEPARATED the SAVED (Lot and his daughters) from the DAMNED (those left in Sodom), God destroyed the DAMNED—not seven years later, as those who mistakenly believe in a “Pre-Tribulation rapture would have us believe.

    Point SIX

    The Christians who believe in a “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” teach that when Christ returns as a “thief in the night” that for those left behind life goes along just fine. But the Bible teaches that when Christ returns as a thief in the night that THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY (exactly as it says in Matthew 24, which occurs AFTER the seven year tribulation) and that the surface of the earth is “BURNED UP”! For it is written:

    “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, THE EARTH also and the works that are therein shall be BURNED UP.” 2 Peter 3:10 KJV)

    The rapture cannot possibly go unnoticed when Christ comes as a thief in the night if the surface of the earth is burned up. Therefore, the rapture cannot possibly take place BEFORE the seven-year tribulation. But this verse fits perfectly with the idea that the rapture takes place AFTER the seven year tribulation when Christ comes back to destroy the wicked with the “brightness of his coming”. (2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV)

    Point SEVEN

    Christ claims he is going to “come back like a thief” right in the middle of the Battle of Armageddon, which is AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE. For it is written:

    “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the BATTLE ON THE GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.”
    “BEHOLD COME LIKE A THIEF! …” [said Jesus]
    Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called ARMAGEDDON.” (Revelation 16:14-16 NIV) [brackets added for clarity]

    Since Christ comes back like a thief during the battle of Armageddon (which is AFTER the seven-year tribulation) then the rapture (which occurs when Christ comes back like a thief) cannot possibly occur BEFORE the seven-year tribulation, as some Christians would have us believe.

    To be continued…

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    David King

    Continuing on…

    Point EIGHT

    If the rapture (and therefore the first resurrection) both occur BEFORE the seven-year tribulation, then no one risen from the dead in the first resurrection would ever have faced the beast or the false prophet to refuse to take the mark of the beast on his forehead or right hand. But Revelation 20 reveals that there ARE Christians who rose from the dead in the First Resurrection who did indeed face the beast and refused to worship him or take his mark on their foreheads or their hands. For it is written:

    “They had NOT worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. … This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.” (Revelation 20:4b NIV)

    The only way that many of those risen from the dead could have faced the beast, seen his image, and refused to take the mark of the beast, would be if they rose from the dead AFTER the seven-year tribulation—not BEFORE! And this means that the rapture likewise must take place AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE.

    In addition, the verse says that the MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST starts IMMEDIATELY after the FIRST RESURRECTION. This also means that the First Resurrection and the Rapture cannot possibly happen 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming.

    Point NINE

    Paul himself says that the rapture will not take place until the Anti-Christ sits in the temple of God and claims to be God. This abominable act is part of the “abomination of desolation” which Jesus says must take place PRIOR his return (Matthew 24:15 NIV), yet this “abomination of desolation” happens at the END of the seven-year tribulation period, and not BEFORE! (Daniel 12::9-27; 12:11) For it is written:

    “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him … don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will NOT come until … the man of lawlessness is revealed …so that he sets himself up in God’s temple proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1,3-4 NIV)

    So the rapture absolutely has to take place AFTER the tribulation because this “abomination of desolation” does not take place until the END of the seven-year treaty.

    In summary, there are NINE good reasons why the rapture must take place AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE. Notice that each of the reasons directly addresses the issue of whether the rapture takes place BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation.

    Neither Peter, Paul or Christ make a distinction between the rapture and the secnd coming. None of them ever say, “please note that I am now referring only to the rapture and not the second coming” or vice versa.

    Points TEN

    At the end of their lives, both Peter and Paul wrote letters that included explanations concerning the apparent delay in Christ’s return to earth. Paul’s explanation is in 2 Thessalonians 2 and Peter’s explanation is in 2 Peter 3. Both explanations align perfectly with a Post-Tribulation point of view and are directly opposed to a Pre-Tribulation point of view.

    Paul’s explanation addresses mistaken concerns in the Church that someone had supposedly forged a letter in Paul’s name declaring that the Rapture had aleady taken place. So Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-? states the the Rapture will not occur until after the antichrist sits in the new temple and proclaims himself to be God. This is part of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Christ and is clearly at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

    Peter’s explanation concerning the delay in Christ’s return says that “God is not slow as some count slowness”, “a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day”, “the day of Christ’s return will come like a thief in the night in which the heavens disappear and the earth is burned up”…clearly presenting a Post- Tribulation Point of view as an explanation for the delay in Chris’s return.

    POINT ELEVEN

    Paul tells us that on the very day that the Lord comes like a thief as a night that those who are left behind will be destroyed sudden destruction will come upon those who are left behind from the Rapture. For it is written:

    “…the DAY OF THE LORD will come like A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” DESTRUCTION WILL COME ON THEM SUDDENLY, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will NOT ESCAPE.” (I Thessalonians 5:1-2)

    Notice how ALL ELEVEN of these evidences PRECISELY identify the rapture as happening AFTER the Anti-Christ’s 7-year treaty with the enemies of Israel (spoken of in Daniel 9), whereas (as you will see below) NONE of the ELEVEN “evidences” of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture have ANYTHING to do with whether the rapture will happen BEFORE or AFTER the Anti-Christ’s 7-year treaty with the enemies of Israel.

  • Reply June 28, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    GREAT POINTS David King would you like me to take the time and explain each of them because half way through your apologia you are actually defending pre-Trib if you havent noticed

    • Reply June 29, 2020

      Daniel Farris

      Bro.Troy,,,After reviewing this very,very,very long post on Pretribulation & all the going back & forth, this is the very reason I don’t have time to explain the Post Tribulation teaching but I have something better, which is Monte Judah’s 2nd GREATER EXODUS teaching from his book.I’m not promoting his book but its chalked full of all the scripture references you need for this crucial teaching. Like I posted earlier I used to be Pretrib.with all the same verses that you & Andrew J. Panish have been useing but until you let Monte Judah show you his teaching & [he used to be pretrib. also] I actually fear for the church’s that be caught off guard thinking they won’t be affected.You can at least get his short version on YouTube 2nd Greater Exodus about 1 1/2 hrs. long.If you watch please use his teaching because there are others not quite as good but still good.I can’t express enough though that the book has all the prophecies & scriptures to back this all up!! Your bro.in Messiah.

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