Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
This brother is a friend of mine. While I disagree with him I still regard him as being a brother in Christ. But I want to start a discussion on what this brother spoke about. Please watch the video fully (it’s only around 6 minutes long). And then reply with your opinion. Please answer each of his points.
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
I apologize in advance for the length of the question.
The book of Ruth is incredibly romantic and powerful, but I don’t understand the legal portion of the drama:
Now Boaz had gone up to the gate and sat down there. And behold, the redeemer, of whom Boaz had spoken, came by. So Boaz said, “Turn aside, friend; sit down here.” And he turned aside and sat down. And he took ten men of the elders of the city and said, “Sit down here.” So they sat down. Then he said to the redeemer, “Naomi, who has come back from the country of Moab, is selling the parcel of land that belonged to our relative Elimelech. So I thought I would tell you of it and say, ‘Buy it in the presence of those sitting here and in the presence of the elders of my people.’ If you will redeem it, redeem it. But if you will not, tell me, that I may know, for there is no one besides you to redeem it, and I come after you.” And he said, “I will redeem it.”—Ruth 4:1-4 (ESV)
So far, so good. The property must remain in the family:
If your brother becomes poor and sells part of his property, then his nearest redeemer shall come and redeem what his brother has sold.—Leviticus 25:25 (ESV)
(In passing, it’s interesting to see that Naomi would be paid for the land so the effect of the rule is that widows retained some form of property ownership.)
Then Boaz said, “The day you buy the field from the hand of Naomi, you also acquire Ruth the Moabite, the widow of the dead, in order to perpetuate the name of the dead in his inheritance.” Then the redeemer said, “I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I impair my own inheritance. Take my right of redemption yourself, for I cannot redeem it.”
Now this was the custom in former times in Israel concerning redeeming and exchanging: to confirm a transaction, the one drew off his sandal and gave it to the other, and this was the manner of attesting in Israel.—Ruth 4:5-7 (ESV)
I do see that the custom of perpetuating the name of the dead had legal basis:
“If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him, and if he persists, saying, ‘I do not wish to take her,’ then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face. And she shall answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, ‘The house of him who had his sandal pulled off.’—Deuteronomy 25:5-10 (ESV)
But why does Boaz say, “The day you buy the field from the hand of Naomi, you also acquire Ruth the Moabite”? How does redeeming some land also introduce a levirate marriage obligation?
Varnel Watson
Brody Pope Good remarks What do yo disagree with in the video? And more importantly, what is your God honest response to it?
Scotty Searan
Let two or three by speak by course.
One message one Interpreter is the course
I also believe that if they are two or three message the same person should interpret all messages
I have prayed in the Spirit for a person, but I speak in a much lower volume, so that it be not for the whole assembly. That is praying in the Spirit
The tongues also was not just a sign for the Jews, Peter talks about that in his dealings with Cornelius
Now I don’t believe a person can choose to speak in the Spiritual anytime they choose.
I do not believe in instructing an Assembly of people to pray in the Holy Spirit
I don’t believe a person will speak in an unknown tongue everytime they pray.
Scotty Searan
I agree with Brody Pope that he is just the common unbeliever in tongues.
I believe he is mistaken for sure in saying that the word of God is perfect in it state in the Bible.
As much as I would like to believe that the Bible was completely perfect as god is perfect it isn’t
I am not a theologian as some of you are but you can attest to that fact yourself I do believe for the most part it is the INERRANT Word of God
Case in point if we believe the Bible is perfect then we will let the women keep silent in the church
Women keeping silent in the church wasn’t just speaking in tongues as that gentleman alluded to
Brody Pope
I believe the Bible is both innerant and infallible. I believe that the Bible is the perfect word of God. However it is important to understand the context of which each book in the Bible was written. In the case of 1 Corinthians, that church was kinda crazy as far spiritual gifts are concerned. And we’ve got to understand why Paul said what he did as far as tongues, and women speaking in church. That church had members competing with one another on who was more spiritual. And leading that crowd of super spiritual folk was a woman or a small group of women. Paul made it clear about how tongues are suppose to operate and then handled the part about those women who were leading the church into a state of confusion.
Dan Irving
I think his real point is to delegetimize tongues based upon Pentecostal non-conformity God’s word concerning their corporate use. Aside from cessationism, his mistake is in failure to distinguish between an ecstatic PROCLAMATION, and mere ecstatic vocalization (ie. in which there is no particular intent to communicate publicly.). Paul is addressing the former. As to his 4th point, the Bible does not forbid women from speaking in tongues, but that they cover themselves when they speak by the Spirit.
Varnel Watson
Brody Pope Do you make a difference between initial evidence, gift of tongues, prayer language and if so what is it?
Brody Pope
Yes I believe there is a difference between tongues spoken as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, the gift of tongues which is used with an interpretation, and prayer language which is used for personal edification.
Varnel Watson
What would you say that difference is and how can we recognize each of them?
Brody Pope
The difference is in the use. Tongues used as the initial evidence of baptism of the Holy Ghost is just that, tongues used as initial evidence. Tongues used in a message for the edification of the Church need an interpretation, unlike the tongues used as initial evidence and tongues used as a prayer language which is for personal edification.
Varnel Watson
How does one recognize them when used?
Brody Pope
Why are you asking me these questions? Shouldn’t this be basic to the Pentecostal understanding of scripture?
Ira Huth
Brother Brody Pope after reading your thread. The first thing that came to my mind is how awesome of a statement you made about your friend. When you said “while you I disagree with him he is a Brother in Christ”. I just want to thank you for that awesome statement. That really touched my heart and is very heart felt and truthful.
I don’t know if you seen the message that Pastor Jentezen Franklin preached at the Agree 18 Conference, but he stated “we can always chew the fish and spit out the bones”. God looks at a man’s heart and motives and we should also learning the truth from each other. I really felt lead to thank you and give you credit where credit is due.
When I get a chance I will watch the video and if feel the leading to comment and or ask a questions I will.
God Bless!!!
Joseph D. Absher
It’s posted on you tube under the category of entertainment. But it’s not funny. More like tragedy.
To bad too because generally they have a good reputation for scriptural integrity.
I personally wouldn’t leave 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 go unchallenged as this so clearly meaning the return of our Lord. Not the canonisation of the holy Bible.
Varnel Watson
What else would it be posted under? Does YouTube gave separate category for religious teachings? BTW Dan Irving if they really want to cover the 7 mountains they should start with the internet. Come to think about it I knew an organization that wrote a Christian only search engine for the internet that returned only results that Christians would wanna hear for the lack of better judgment. It never really took off just like the facebook for Christians but it was a realistic kingdom-now attempt after all. Of course Christians nowadays are so blinded by politics that they hardly ever hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Scotty Searan
I have a elderly (70+) Baptist Minister and we talk and he still pastors a church.
He fills about tongues like the gentleman in the video. Now I visit his church quite often and they let me sing, not preach but he has said many times for me to share what was on my heart at church if I had something.
Now I know the church doesn’t believe the way I do. I do obey the Holy Spirit in that church.
It is a small country church, But many members of that church have said it was like a breath of fresh air when I minister to them in word and song.
They know me in town and that is better than I can say for some of the Pentecostal member that I know that sometimes its almost like trying to avoid the plague when they see me.
I’ve never felt the urge to have a ecstatic proclamation at a a Baptist church. But I did see one group that sang at that church that began to speak in tongues and give out an interpretation. But I felt cold chills instead of being refreshed.
One Thing this minister he hangs on to I Cor. 13. but he admits I have him stumped and I would say to the individual on the video. If the Bible is the perfect that is coming, and tongues and prophecy have ceased, why hasn’t knowledge ceased? Why continue to take course to increase your learning on the Bible. They are stumped there.
Scotty Searan
One other thing. I have been in church services where there have been more 3 messages and tongues.
I was in one service where there was 18 messages in tongues with interpretations.
Varnel Watson
To me the video is just funny and too late to tell me
Varnel Watson
ol boy aint got a clue what he’s talking about
Bill Terrell
God bless this gentleman and brother in Christ but he’s teaching as a novice one of skepticism and unbelief who simply doesn’t know,but deep inside he wants to experience the gifts of the spirit,so Lord im praying you fill him and baptize him in your Holy Spirit with the evidence of prophecy and speaking in tongues.
Varnel Watson
Reminds of Randal teaching on the gifts 🙂
Randal W Deese
You don’t know my teachings… Haha..SMH
Varnel Watson
you aint got none 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Cavalier Dismissal… Another logical fallacy ; )
Varnel Watson
Randal = all talk – no theology
Randal W Deese
Troy Day All puff and no stuff
Always attempting to get others to do your work
Varnel Watson
You make a claim – you back it up or you are all talk.
Randal W Deese
Troy Day You change arguments and think you are stating facts…
Varnel Watson
the automation of chrismation assembly line 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day When people are Chrismated, they speak in tongues
Varnel Watson
even infant? sure Major flaw in theology just found
Randal W Deese
Troy Day With infants, Orthodox-Pentecostalism practices John 20:22
Varnel Watson
yes you can keep on repeating that but it still does not give proper hermeneutics of jn 20
Randal W Deese
Troy Day
It is better hermeneutics than infant dedication – nowhere found in NT
Varnel Watson
Do you blow on them? Does this make you Benny Hinn of Orthodoxy 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day
Do you have a man made tradition of dedication of infants because you don’t know what to do with them?
Bill Terrell
My father in law always thought tongues were fake,he began to have some serious health problems a few months before he passed he called all the kids together he told us he was in his room praying then all of a sudden he began to lift His hands and praise God Then he said his language changed to another dialect as he praised God then he look at us with a urgency and said,it’s real children it’s real!!!which we already knew!?
Bill Terrell
I didn’t here him read this scripture,1cor 14:39 esv-
So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Varnel Watson
What a great great testimony bro Bill Terrell Biggest problem we have in the church today is that men who never experienced a real Holy Ghost baptism are teaching on the Holy Ghost baptism That’s the problem we must deal with Aint that the truth Brody Pope Bill Coble
Bill Terrell
Amen!