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Response to the Calvinist’s War on the Sinner’s Prayer
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Alexander Erik Petzinger
Excellent points!
Alexander Erik Petzinger
But the Calvinists also make excellent valid points.
Varnel Watson
he makes ALL Excellent points! Nelson Banuchi RichardAnna Boyce I am not sure WHY recently some ultra calvinators are refuting the sinners prayer EXCEPT for the claim that if you are elect you will be saved and DONT need to pray – too dumb of an approach and NOT Biblical at all
RichardAnna Boyce
is there one sinner’s prayer in the Bible? Free Grace doesn’t agree with sinners prayer because it is not Biblical and does not save, in itself. In fact it can lead to false assurance, which falls apart when promised times of trouble occur. Better an unbeliever believes between them and God; without agency of believers using sinners prayers to get in the way IMHO
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce does not Paul tell us what needs to happened with the heart and mouth of the sinner?
RichardAnna Boyce
Bible verse please as Paul is usually speaking to believers. Are we rightly dividing the Bible between sanctification and justification, again??
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce you dont know THAT Bible verse? Dont get sidetracked – this OP is about SALVATION Your view of sanctification is dualistic gnosticism as it presupposes a kind of neoplatonic dualism that assumes that … To stress positional sanctification to the point that one can say, “i am spiritual, but still sin in the body …
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day bible verse please
TM
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce has declared war on the sinners prayer proposing work-based salvation. It’s you needing to do something to make sure you’re saved. You’re not converted when you are converted, you are converted in an ongoing process of doing good works!
Question:
Is such an idea true Calvinist doctrine? Seems as if it would be contrary to the Calvinist idea of election? Is Washer being consistent when he said this?
Varnel Watson
OK Nelson Banuchi Isara Mo Joe Absher this is very much pertaining to our case study with the said demonized person close to the pastor The pastor has now announced THAT no sinners prayer is needed It is the wrong way to get saved and we’ve been pressing it on ppl for 100yrs hence millennials don’t respond to church calls no more
NOW THEN
should denouncing the SINNERS PRAYER be grounds for dismissal from our AG or cog/.cogic – ihpc and 4sq churches? RichardAnna Boyce Alan Smith Daniel J Hesse Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Nelson Banuchi
Whether the “sinners prayer” is now useful in bringing people to Christ for salvation can be debated but there was a time in which it was useful, a time which God honored it (and I think still does if one prays such a pray with an earnest faith).
No kind of prayer, lofty or simple, uttered by one’s own words or following another, in and of itself, saves anyone.
Therefore, it is, from perspective, quite silly and petty to dismiss anyone from any Christian fellowship merely on the aforementioned grounds.
Varnel Watson
No comment on the actual content of liturgical proceeding MY question was should pastors who DONT believe in sinners prayer and practice it BE DISMISSED Joe Absher Daniel J Hesse RichardAnna Boyce
Joe Absher
would you dismiss Spurgeon
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day no for reasons already stated.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi what reasons? Joe Absher why Spurgeon
?
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day See my comment above, right below your initial comment on this thread.
Basically, because it’s petty. Shucks, they don’t throw out pastors when they commit adultery but they’re be gonna throw them out because they don’t believe/practice the “sinner’s prayer”?
Respectfully, from my perspective, this is a silly debate.
Joe Absher
C.H. Spurgeon did not ‘use’ what we call a sinners prayer but lead many souls to Christ. An interesting man with effective gospel preaching.
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher https://truthwar.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/a-sinners-prayer-by-charles-spurgeon/
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day I come from an apostolic background we never accepted the sinners prayer ? you had to speak in tongues right from the beginning to be saved! I’m the church I Pastor now we teach salvation as a process and believe that we can pray an individual prayer at the altar with each person along with a form of the sinners prayer.
Varnel Watson
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. you do? All apostolics pray sinners prayer – I grew up in a church demanding Spirit Fullness before you be saved meaning saved, sanctified, Spirit Filled, water baptized, tongues speaking during Communion and only then maybe then you were saved enough to attend but sinners prayer was always there as far as I can remember – guess not as salvation affirmation but more of as a start toward your salvific fullness
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day we never did it or allowed it. If a minister attempted it he would have been silenced. That was considered something that the baptist due ?
Chris Friend
In Calvinistic thinking, if a person is elect then a sinners prayer is unnecessary. I’ve had a reformed pastor admit that infant baptism is the “cause” of salvation in their theology.
We Pentecostals, as a whole, have never been calvinists. For us, with our holiness roots, repentance (ala a sinners prayer) is needed somewhere in the ordo salutis.
Varnel Watson
heres the question DID early Pentecostals @ Azusa used free will to pray sinners prayers? AND should dismissal of sinners prayer be grounds for dismissing a Pentecostal minister today?
Chris Friend
Troy Day repentance was a key element at Azusa street (and similar revivals). Was the wording the same as what we use today? Probably not.
Should we “tighten up” our wording? Sure.
I’d be careful about dismissing pastors / it’s more about education IMHO.
Bottom line is we could do with more prayer and more repentance!
Varnel Watson
Chris Friend source for that pls I have not found anything to that extend along praying a sinners prayer at Azusa James H. Boyd had dismissed repentance as grounds for salvation
Chris Friend
Troy Day but I wouldn’t count word of faith (Boyd) as Pentecostal.
It’s more neo-charismatic.
Chris Friend
And we Pentecostals don’t talk in terms of grounds of salvation so much as in terms of the order.
Varnel Watson
Chris Friend not WOF RichardAnna Boyce is free grace
Isara Mo
In the marriage vow a minister will usually lead the bride and bridegroom thru a verbal confession of intent, to a lifelong partnership a declaration made by mouth and at the end of it the ministers pronounces them as HUSBAND AND WIFE..
No need to urgue or fight against attackers of sinners prayer..they dont read their Bibles well.
The word says a man is trapped by the words of his mouth..
So anytime one opens their mouth whether led by a pastor or any lay believer to confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, they are in..
Varnel Watson
So what about the SINNERS prayer?
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Okay with me althought we dont see examples in the Bible..
I think the sinners prayer is just a starter what happens in a person AFTERWARDS is of more observation that the initial utterance..
If the Lord has entered the mans heart the Holy Spirit will begin to do things IN him and THROUGH him.
So arguments on the sinners prayer in my view are irrelevant ..a non issue.
The fruit is important..
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo so you dont believe in repentance either? Whereas the heart believes and the mouth confesses ?
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Hey mister why are you putting words in my mouth?
The law of forgiveness demands repentance that is why the scriptures say IF YOU REPENT..
What if you dont?
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo I dont know – only RichardAnna Boyce knows how one gets saved without repentance I believe the heart produces a confession I agree with you that there is no need for a format or a formal confession that need to be repeated BUT STILL the heart must express or confess the words in order for one to be saved I leave to you and Joe Absher to figure out how a person that cannot speak can confess their words audibly For me I know Jesus healed them so they can speak out and profess Him as their Lord and Savor
Joe Absher
I never get tired of confessing my faith in Christ . loving him . obeying him . turning from every sin . and freely forgiving as I have been forgiven .
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher pls confess it one more time for us
Joe Absher
Lord I’m sorry I stand rightly judged and condemned . I was wrong I have sinned . please forgive me . I believe Jesus Christ is my only hope in this life and the next. Lord help me and save me or I perish
Varnel Watson
I think I see your point Nelson Banuchi you are saying keep them though they sleep around and dont pray the sinners prayer Got ya 10-4 Joe Absher
O my dear hearers, do not let it be so with you! Many of you are saved; I beseech you intercede for those who are not saved. Oh, that the unconverted among you may be moved to pray. Before you leave this place, breathe an earnest prayer to God, saying, “God be merciful to me a sinner. Lord, I need to be saved. Save me. I call upon thy name.” Join with me in prayer at this moment, I entreat you. Join with me while I put words into your mouths, and speak them on your behalf—”Lord, I am guilty. I deserve thy wrath. Lord I cannot save myself. Lord, I would have a new heart and a right spirit, but what can I do? Lord, I can do nothing, come and work in me to will and to do of thy good pleasure.
“Thou alone hast power, I know,
To save a wretch like me;
To whom, or whither should I go
If I should turn from thee?”
But I now do from my very soul call upon thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of thy dear Son; I trust thy mercy, and thy love, and thy power, as they are revealed in him. I dare to lay hold upon this word of thine, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Lord, save me to-night, for Jesus’ sake. Amen.”
http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/2082.htm?fbclid=IwAR3V4lm095ACozOMsdHSchdV1Ht8F4Bs8MRjupWRJf3Wf3wYKDhUdBPa-W4
RichardAnna Boyce
OMG, is Spurgeon using the Free Grace name without copyright? He needs to come back and say the sinner’s payer lol.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce YES too bad Joe Absher did not know about his sinners prayer and you did not know about his thousands of sermons on REPENTANCE 🙂
Joe Absher
#getsome
RichardAnna Boyce
A very popular evangelistic technique today is to ask unbelievers to pray to become Christians. However, there is not one biblical example of anyone ever praying to be saved. Jesus never led anyone in a prayer of salvation, nor did any of the apostles or evangelists mentioned in the Bible. A person is saved by believing in Christ for eternal life, not by praying.
Varnel Watson
its been like that for over 2-3 centuries
RichardAnna Boyce
nothing wrong with sinners prayer IF God tells you to; but not Biblical, and im discerning sometimes unbelievers are pressured into saying it without meaning, and are not saved. Maybe even Trump would repeat sinners prayer at campaign meeting to gain votes? hmmmmmmm. But then if Donald admitted sinning in public it would be a miracle conversion :-).
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce well and thats WHY we need repentance and conversion in the Missio DEI Hugh Lowrie
Hugh Lowrie
There does seem to be an outsized focus on “personal conversions” in white American Evangelicalism
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie This page isn’t available
The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce Joe Absher Michael Ellis Carter Jr. lets put this plain and simple
if you have NOT Prayed A sinners prayer
YOU AINT SAVED
#boom
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day ha ha where I come from if you have not spoke in tongues you are not saved lol ?
Varnel Watson
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. and I tend to agree too
RichardAnna Boyce
lol
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce are you saved already or you will be saved in the future after being sanctified?
RichardAnna Boyce
spirit is saved; soul being saved; body will be saved. Why do i have to repeat my answers?
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce and this very dualism is gnostic
RichardAnna Boyce
1. Past Sanctification, spirit.
Positional sanctification is past (and permanent): we were set apart in Christ at our conversion.
2. Present Sanctification, soul.
Progressive sanctification is present: we are daily being more and more conformed to His image in holiness.
3. Future Sanctification, body.
Ultimate sanctification is future: one day we shall see Him as He is and we shall be like Him. There will be no more sin in thought, word, or deed—and no “old man” to make us even want a shred of that old, shoddy condition.
Varnel Watson
dualism at its best – you should REconsider this
RichardAnna Boyce
1. Positional Sanctification
1 Corinthians 1:30 “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”
“And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11, ).
2. Progressive Sanctification
John 17:17, “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”
3. Perfected Sanctification
Final, ultimate, or perfect sanctification does not take place till we leave this planet through death or the Rapture. It is an event yet to come. First John 3:2
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce its possible some lack the power to live holy because they never repented
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day none of the disciples said the sinners prayer, so none of them saved?
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day believers ARE HOLY, because Christ in them is holy, and they are in Christ.
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day ONCE an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is then compulsory 1 John 1:9 to repent/change their mind/ and agree with God, that they are holy in Christ, to receive rewards at the Bema. But it is NEVER a condition of saving faith/regeneration/justification that they need to repent of sins – ONLY THAT THEY BELIEVE.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce you dont have sanctification, dont have tongues with baptism, dont have rapture, dont have repentance in salvation? What you got left but paganism ? Joe Absher