Pentecostal Theology: Definete proof of the pre-Trib rapture

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Troy Day NOW I agree with the Dake Bible on this one 100%

Ricky GrimsleyLol his main proof is that “after these things” means after the churches. Nonsense

Troy DayMETA TAUTA – in the original Greek. Still there after 2,000 yrs Dont just erase and cut the Bible – Deal with it 🙂 #SOLID

Ricky GrimsleyIt doesn’t mean after the churches. It means the vision of Jesus where he talks about the churches.

Troy DayWhy?

Ricky GrimsleyCommon sense

Troy DayWhat common sense 🙂 What you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all

Ricky GrimsleyAfter these things just means on to the next part of the book.  Not after the churches. It just doesn’t say that.

Troy DayThat makes no sense The Greek is pretty clear Just look it up for yourself when you get a chance

A.J. BibleIn addition, the Church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 until Revelation 22:6. That is “after these things” are fully revealed.

Ricky GrimsleyLol

Ricky GrimsleyWho is dying for Jesus if not the church?Revelation 6:11 KJVS[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled.

Ricky GrimsleyRevelation 12:11 KJVS[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ricky GrimsleyDaniel 11:31-32 KJVS[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice , and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits .

A.J. BibleThose who repent during the tribulation. Daniel 11:31-32 does not refer to end time prohecy but prohecy of Antiochus.

Ricky GrimsleyCmon you don’t really believe that

Ricky GrimsleyWhat about all the others

A.J. BibleDon’t believe what? The Bible? Yes, I believe the Bible.

Ricky GrimsleyWe all believe the Bible.

Ricky GrimsleyThe part about it being just antiochus

A.J. BibleYes. I make the assumption you’re trying to make verses 31-32 about the antichrist. But he does not come in prophecy until verse 36.

Melvin ShomoI look at this way Jesus had said to watch, because thou does not know when thy Lord doth come.We all know for a fact that he is coming at the end of the seven year tribulation, so you are already prepared for his coming.If you believe that we will meet the Lord in the air, then you have to believe in a catching away, or a rapture. If you believe that the catching away is in the middle of the tribulation, then you already know. Three and a half years after the tribulation starts. Here again you already know, even though Jesus had said that no body knows but the Father in heaven.Now the Pretribbers have no way of knowing concerning the catching away, or the rapture, when their Lord had said to stay alert and WATCH,, because we do not know.. Because the tribulation will take everyone by surprise, and so will our Lord.

Ricky GrimsleyHe said no man knows the day or the hour because no man did. Now he does. There is no scriptural support for pretrib. The disciples asked for signs.  Jesus have them 30 verses of signs. Open your eyes people.

A.J. Bible👀

Ricky GrimsleyWe rise to meet him in the air right????????Matthew 24:30-31 KJVS[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Melvin ShomoThere are more then just a few verses in the Bible.I take Jesus literally for what he has said

A.J. BibleRicky Grimsley. Matthew 24:30-31 is the second coming of Christ. Not the rapture.

Melvin ShomoThen you have no need to watch because you know everything there is to know

Ricky GrimsleyWhy….because you say so?

A.J. BibleBecause Joel 2 says so.

Melvin ShomoNo I know so.

Melvin ShomoRicky my boy you will have to show where in the scripture that it is no longer important to watch.

Ricky GrimsleyLol I watch everyday

Ricky GrimsleyTell me how 2 Thessalonians two doesn’t desTroy Day pretrib?

Melvin ShomoRicky my boy are we going to meet the Lord in the air?

Ricky GrimsleyYes

Ricky GrimsleyOn his way down

Ricky Grimsley2 Thessalonians 2 tells you that the rapture can’t happen until a great falling away and the Antichrist is revealed

Melvin ShomoWell many will be rewarded for their faith, according to their works. It all depends upon their confession, or confessions.To believe in a healing for your body it takes faith in the GREAT I AM.. I have received healing for my body different times, and I have been rewarded for my faith.The pretrib, is all based on faith. I do not eat and sleep the pretrib, because I do not know when the tribulation starts. I instead I walk by Faith

Ricky GrimsleyYour faith can’t change the Bible.

Melvin ShomoI have worn five of them out.And I have only read a few books in my lifetime concerning the Bible.How many books have you read separate from the Bible?

Melvin ShomoI can actually count how many books separate from the Bible I have read on one hand.And this is most likely for me being able to receive a healing for my own body.

Ricky GrimsleyIt would be hard to guess

Melvin ShomoI didn’t have the pleasure of reading the unbelief that others have written concerning the Bible.And I haven’t had a TV much in our home, and it has been forty years now. So I can’t be accused of watching Jack Van Impe .I had a book here from Hal Lindsey that I had found to boring to read. It was called the Late Great Planet Earth. It was given to me shortly after it came out. I only read a few pages of it.

Ricky GrimsleyIf you just follow Matthew 24 it shows you where the rapture is. Paul let’s you know also in 1 Thessalonians five that his talking about the second coming in 4 16-18. The rapture is the first part of the second coming.

Melvin ShomoA matter of a fact I don’t even agree with some of Jack Van Impe’s teachings.For one there will be Christians left here to face the tribulation. Quite a lot of them.All because they had taken the Lord for granite. They chose not to walk in the light as He is in the light.And they weren’t found with their oil lamps trimmed

Ricky GrimsleyI am what is called pre-wrath.

Melvin ShomoEnoch and Elijah were taken, because both men had walked and talked with God.They were in the light, as He is in the light.

Melvin ShomoFor one Ricky you have to make it through the tribulation first, and how are you going to do that if you don’t have the means to buy or sell with. If you don’t have the mark of approval

Ricky GrimsleyI’ll have toTrust god like I do now.

Ricky GrimsleyLike noah

Melvin ShomoHave you trusted God for the impossibilities?I should tell you a testimony about blood poisoning that I had.Every body had written me off as a dead man.

Melvin ShomoIf you don’t have the faith now to believe God for the impossibilities, how will you have the faith during the tribulation

Ricky GrimsleyWell if I don’t make it through….perhaps I ll be a martyr.

Melvin ShomoFirst the Christian has to be found worthy enough to escape all the things that will be coming upon the Earth during the tribulation.Many Christians think that it is okay to drink alcohol.And they also take sin for granted when Christ came to set the captive free..Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Ricky GrimsleyAnd I plan to escape these things. God’s wrath does start till after the midpoint of the tribulation. The first part of the 7 years a the wrath of man and the Antichrist

Melvin ShomoRicky it is very doubtful that many Christians will make it through the tribulation.  If they don’t receive the mark of the beast, they won’t be able to buy food to eat, and those who do receive the mark will gladly turn the others in for not obeying the law. Mostly all Christians will not make it the full seven years. There are those that believe that the Lord will place the Christians in a mysterious hide away. Some even have said Petra..I wonder where they get their doctrines from..

Ricky GrimsleyRevelation 12:11 KJVS[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Melvin ShomoSo you believe that the Lord will just sit back and let his children die like he had set back for Lot, Noah, the children of Nineveh.In other words God sees no need to make away of escape for his children mentioned in Luke 21:36

Melvin ShomoSo in other words there is no need to pray to be worthy enough to escape the tribulation.I had one gentleman tell me that Luke 21:36 is referring to death in order to be worthy enoug to escape the tribulation. In other words, pray for a blessing of cancer to kill your body, or pray that a Semi Tractor Trailer hits you head on so that you may be worthy enough to escape. He was adamant that he was right about Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Melvin ShomoYou see I would quote all the scriptures but the books that you have been reading that disagrees with the pretrib, has got an explanation for those scriptures even Luke 21:36. Some people even go to the extremes and say that Jesus was referring to the Jews only and not the believer in Christ. Then what tops it off the Prophesy Club on YouTube say that the Pretribbers will accept the mark of the beast because they are so heart broken. LOLNot when you have the Holy Ghost. Many denominations know how to get people saved, but they don’t know how to give people the gift of the Holy Ghost 🔥.They tell each new convert that they supposedly received the Holy Spirit upon conversion, which is not scriptural. Yes those people that are saved with out the tangible presence of the Holy Ghost 🔥 in their lives, just might crumble and give into the mark of the beast so that they can buy and sell to feed their families

A.J. BibleVerse 7. “Until he be taken out of the way.” Who is the He? For this “he” must be removed for the antichrist to appear.

Ricky GrimsleyI believe it’s Michael. But it can’t be the church because the day won’t come till after the Antichrist is here verse 3

Troy DayCant be Michael No such option in the Bible The only one who can hold the antiChrist is the Christ If Michael could have done it there would have been no need for the Christ to do it

Joseph KidwellDake is right on this and is really pretty good on Revelation in general.

Troy DayDake is wrong on a few things but he is unmistakable on prophecy. Rapture is like the Trinity – just when you see it and it’s already too late

Joseph KidwellTrue. He is wrong on a few things, but over all, he is pretty solid on Revelation.

Christopher Noel BoggessWhy dont you just post scriptures instead of this mans interpretation and let the holy ghost give us the interpretation

Troy DayWe are speaking of Scripture Rev 4:1 After these things Has it even in Greek above A.J. Bible added v 7 Ricky Grimsley Mt 24 and no, if you just follow Mt 24 it does not show you that

Ricky Grimsley“Hey Jesus. What are the signs of your coming”. 30 verses of signs. Then Matthew 24:31 KJVS[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

A.J. BibleWho are the elect?

Troy DayRicky Grimsley Who else in the whole group believes in your 3/4 rapture 🙂

Ricky GrimsleyPretty simple

Troy DayRicky Grimsley You need to start making difference between coming and gathering just like the Bible does. One of the signs of Christ’s coming is that He comes WITH his saints. Now how would this be possible if the Bible doesnt tell us there will be a gathering first?

Ricky GrimsleyThe only difference is in your mind. Otherwise we would call it the third coming.

Troy Day3rd 4th – you are the one with the 3/4 rapture 🙂

Angel BonillaNobody knew about a Pre-Trib Rapture until the 19th century.

Troy DayAngel Bonilla Not true The Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church…/

18 Comments

  • Reply May 31, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    I call em like I see em Ricky Grimsley Alan Smith

  • Reply March 9, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Nelson Banuchi Neil Steven Lawrence there is a definite BIBLICAL PROOF of RAPTURE vs PAROUSIA Why are SO MANY NOT going is beyond me Are you going? Dan Brent

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Neil Steven Lawrence

      Troy Day Off the top of my head, The Rapture and the 2nd Coming are 2 distinct scriptural events:
      1. People are not “left behind” unless someone is taken away

      2. A “thief in the night” comes unexpectedly; the 2nd Coming will not be unexpected and it will not be secret but the whole world will see it.

      3. The Scriptures which say we should be on our guard and be watchful because we don’t know when the Son of Man will return in the clouds (ie Rapture) do not apply to the 2nd Coming because we know exactly when that will happen – at the end of the Great Tribulation 7 years; when the antichrist armies are surrounding Jerusalem.

      People who conflate these two distinct scriptural events, even though they have been clearly shown by other teachers that they are distinct, are “spiritually stubborn.” What is another word for spiritually stubborn…?

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Nelson Banuchi

      I can agree that there may be a “rapture,” however, I do not agree with the pre- or post-trib idea. I’m more inclined to think it will occur after if not before the 1,000 year reign (if it can be taken literally).

      Honestly, I haven’t looked into this in any depth. My only question to the idea of a rapture before or mid trib in order to spare Christians from persecution (as a result of God’s judgments on the unbelievers), doesn’t sit well with me. I would ask, why would God, who allowed Christians to go through terrible persecution over the centuries, all of a sudden spare this last generation?

      Second, if the Holy Spirit indwells believers, then does that mean that after the rapture the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth to accomplish the ministry of conviction and salvation? How do unbelievers receive salvation without the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Besides that, who will preach the message of salvation to the trib-generation of unbelievers if all the Christians are raptured? Or, the age of mercy is then over?

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Nelson Banuchi

      Oh, and one more thing: it is my understanding that none of the Early Church Fathers taught this notion of the rapture. It was first taught during sometime around 1850, a time when there was a growing surge (if I’m not mistaken) of hope, expectation, prophesying, and even dating of the Lord’s return.

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Nelson Banuchi staying here eh? virtually ALL Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Nelson Banuchi

      I just make one reply concerning where the article quotes Irenaeus:

      “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

      Then, to explain what Irenaeus is saying, the article states:

      “Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters.”

      As I read it, Irenaeus is not saying the church leaves *before* the trib, and is clearly his meaning when he states afterwards that the it is their “last contest” and “they overcome.” It cannot mean they overcome by their being whisked away but by their enduring the times, remaining faithful to God. Note he says that the tribulation is their “last contest” which they “overcome” by their faithfulness, even to death.

      We may have a promise in the Bible of safety from divine wrath but there is no promise of safety from persecution by human wrath by those to whom divine wrath is inflicted. Persecution is itself inevitable, practically promised for those who seek to obey the Lord. As such, believers will not be whisked away (raptured) before the Tribulation but, as I stated earlier, if 1 These 4 is to be taken literally, it will be more than likely after the Trib (p.551).

      Did Irenaeus make a clearer statement on the issue?

      Tertullian is quoted in Bercot’s “Dictionary of Early Christian Belief,” regarding the rapture, that:

      “In the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death *while encountering* the oppression of the Antichrist, these persons will undergo a change” (ibid).

      In another place, Tertullian is quoted to say:

      “When we read, ‘Go, my people, enter into your closets… until my anger passes away,” we understand the closets to be graves, in which will rest… [those who] have departed this life *in the furious onset* of the power of the Antichrist” (ibid).

      It seems to me that Tertullian is suggesting that believers will go through the Trib and be raptured afterwards.

      And just to be clear, I am not saying that the idea of the rapture in and of itself is not taught by the Early Church, but that a rapture pre- or mid-trib is what is *not* taught. Believers will go through the “great tribulation.”

      It is only “immediately after the tribulation” that Jesus “will gather together His elect”: no gathering of the elect – a rapture – is hinted at the trib but only after. It seems before or during the trib, the only “rapture” hinted at must be by foot running out of the house and fleeing to the mountains (vs.15-21).

      It is interesting that you provide only three Church Fathers and the first one used as a defense of the rapture before the Trib is dubious or inconclusive. Perhaps there was not a consensus on this issue of the rapture being before the Trib?

      I have not the time now to investigate the other two, but I hope to have time to look into them. Theses last two do, at first glance, seem to affirm your position… but are there only these two?

    • Reply March 9, 2020

      Nelson Banuchi

      Troy Day Btw, that pic of Darby is scary, ?

  • Reply March 9, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    RT Neil Steven Lawrence

    The Rapture and the 2nd Coming are 2 distinct Scriptural events:

    1. People are not “left behind” unless someone is taken away. The Rapture is a word that means “caught up.“ The 2nd Coming is not a “catching up” but a “going down” of Jesus and the armies of Heaven to the earth!

    2. The Rapture is described as a “thief in the night” which comes unexpectedly; the 2nd Coming will not be unexpected and it will not be secret but the whole world will see it.

    3. The Scriptures which say we should be on our guard and be watchful because we don’t know when the Son of Man will call us from the clouds (ie Rapture), do not apply to the 2nd Coming because we know exactly when that will happen – at the end of the Great Tribulation 7 years; when the antichrist armies are surrounding Jerusalem.

    People who conflate these 2 distinct scriptural events, even though they have been clearly shown by other teachers that they are distinct, are “spiritually stubborn.” What is another word for spiritually stubborn…?

  • Reply July 2, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    well come on now Larry Dale Steele Neil Steven Lawrence

  • Reply July 2, 2020

    Rich Palmer

    Couldn’t that moment be Christ’s 2nd coming?

  • Reply July 2, 2020

    Tony Foulks

    The rapture we meet Jesus in the air. The second coming He comes to earth. Bible says, “this Jesus you see ascending from earth will come back in the same manner

    • Reply July 2, 2020

      Daniel Farris

      If your pretrib & raptured in a twinkling of a eye,,,,don’t think your going to get a much of chance to get a glimps of HIM descending from the sky!?

    • Reply July 2, 2020

      Tony Foulks

      Daniel Farris the Bible says He will meet us in the air. I don’t have to see anything

  • Reply July 2, 2020

    Mike Forfar

    2Thess 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day [the rapture] will not come unless the falling away (apostasia) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”

  • Reply July 2, 2020

    Brian Cathy Gray

    The only proof of anything is in it’s happening. Everything else is belief and faith.

  • Reply July 3, 2020

    Dave Holdway

    Definite denial of anything Jewish, the trial and tribulation of Israel and the whole Church Age in prophecy.

  • As much as you wish that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, it shall not be. I believe that Jesus Christ hates the adoption of this harmful theory of a pre-tribulation rapture as His word clearly and plainly rejects it!

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