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Troy Day | PentecostalTheology.com
Did JESUS taste spiritual death in HELL?
Did JESUS taste spiritual death in HELL? Where did Jesus complete his work of redemption?
“Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, ‘I am thirsty.’ A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponde in it, put…
| Louise Cummings | The Bible says nothing about Jesus burning in hell for our sins. When you go to hell for sins you don’t get out. He wasn’t a sinner. The Bible said He never sinned neither was guild found in his mouth. He did take the keys to death , hell and the grave from Satan. And set captives free but our Redemption was finished on the Cross. Because He cried loud and said it is finished. Father into or unto You I commend My Spirit. |
| Troy Day | Ricky Grimsley The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finishâ€. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finishedâ€.This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been†or “it is†finished.The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to beâ€, i.e., “it is†in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it. |
| Terry Wiles | This is ceasing to be mature Pentecostal Theology discussion and more like first semester dorm room talk from those ungrounded in the Word. He took captivity captive. |
| Howard Gardner | Jesus completed His spiritual work of redemption on the cross. He said “It is finished” – not “to be continued.” – Benny Hinn. |
| Troy Day | Terry Wiles Took or led? Ephesians 4:7-10 is a “hard passageâ€. The main question is whether or not Christ descended into hell. Let’s start by clearly answering at least these three questions:(1) What is the descent that Paul is thinking about when he says, “he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth” (verse 9)?(2) What is the captivity that Paul is thinking about when he quotes, “He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” (verse 8)?(3) What is the leading that Paul has in mind in that same quote, “He led captivity captive” (verse 8)? |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day. The beginning ? was did Christ taste spiritual death in hell. The answer is no. He went there as victor and led captivity captive. |
| Cor Leonis Johnson | Jesus is God! It is heresy to teach that Jesus is not God, and it is heresy to teach that Jesus could die and temporarily cease to be God. |
| Walter PolasikWalter and 89 | How could Jesus ever stop being what He is? He has always been God. There never was a time when He was not. He never had a beginning (hence, could not have been birthed in heaven as “the Son” nor will He eternally be “the Son” for this very reason). . . .Don’t worry Troy, I haven’t forgotten. 😉 |
| Joseph Kidwell | Walter Polasik, you are right this time! Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. |
| Troy Day | Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. |
| Jeffry Woolston | Did you stop being smart when you asked this question? |
| Troy Day | The emptying of JESUS or KENOSIS in Christian theology in the meaing of the renunciation of the divine nature, at least in part, by Christ in the Incarnation and his death on the cross is a serious doctrine that should not be disregarded easily |
| Walter PolasikWalter and 89 | Not all scholars are agreed on that. Certainly even the ones who put forward the “kenosis” theory would never agree that Jesus ever stopped BEING God. His attributes like omniscience and omnipresence He put aside. He came from the throne to hang on a cross. He relied on the Holy Spirit in His earthly ministry and, as Messiah and “Son of Man” was exalted. But did He ever CEASE BEING God? No. |
| Joseph Kidwell | Walter Polasik, ding, ding, ding, ding! Right again! You are on a roll! |
| Walter PolasikWalter and 89 | Joseph Kidwell: I must be butter ’cause I’m on a roll. 😉 But wait! . . .I thought I was a cracker? Or maybe a wheat thin? I still don’t get how you can agree with my theology but hold to such weird politics! |
| Derrick Harmon | No. |
| Louise Cummings | No sir. He will never stop being God. |
| Vlad Stepanov | How can God stop being God? |
| Thomas Henry Jr. | No |
| Joe Absher | And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” – Matthew 27:46 On the cross Jesus poured out his soul to God. He poured himself out even unto death. “Walking the wood” climbing and struggling for every breath he found strength and help in the psalm of David as any man may do. Jesus emptied himself of his divine rights and privileges. But though he was made to be sin, never did the divine light shine brighter, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” The sun never ceases it’s shining though clothed in the clouds. So Christ veiled in the flesh, could be hidden but for a moment. Even now he’s hidden to some but light and grace has broken through in the hearts of others. And they bowing find life. |
| Timothy K. Wiebe | He was ALWAYS fully God and fully human while He was on the earth. |
| Steve Maxwell | He felt forsaken and was confused about it. This is a moment that I can’t comprehend, so I don’t understand what’s happening there. It almost seems like he wasn’t in touch with his divinity at that moment. I really don’t understand it. |
| Timothy K. Wiebe | Simple, He was human |
| Link Hudson | Who would say yes to that? Do you mean at death… His body? |
| Troy Day | Vlad Stepanov How can God die? |
| Bill Stockham | There is nothing impossible for God… |
| Troy Day | You hit the nail on the head |
| Edwin Rodriguez | No he it’s God allways |
| Kenneth L. Harrell | Luke 23:46. Why can’t we take that at face value rather that read it through the dogma of Chalcedon. How Jesus was God and man at the same time is a mystery of the faith. When reading Hebrews it is clear that the Lord’s HUMANITY had to be perfected to be a suitable sacrifice. Many Trinitarians insist that the Lord’s divine nature had to die in order for Jesus to accomplish redemption. But there is no scriptural support for that. Jesus was the second Adam. He replaced the first one as a HUMAN. Of course he was also divine but this notion that he had two natures one divine, one human that are distinct but inseparable and that his human nature was always submitted to his divine will has no foundation in scripture but is like all the endless debates at the councils philosophy and vain deceit. Scripture does not describe what he emptied himself of in becoming human but we know he worked no miracles until he was baptized by John and empowered by the Holy Spirit. God is a spirit and he is eternal. Jesus became the Son of God when the Word was made flesh. The Word was with God and was God. Until he was made flesh he is not described as the Son of God. The Son of God and God the Son are not one and the same. Eternally begotten was invented by Athanasius to combat the Arian heresy but is not faithful to the Gospels not the epistles. Reinterpreting the NT through the lens of those four ecumenical councils leads to questions and discussions like this. |
| Troy Day | Sure said He died now doesnt it Kenneth L. Harrell ? |
| Kenneth L. Harrell | Of course he died. That is without controversy. But what that means is. If you read back the assumptions of Chalcedon back into the NT you will interpret it that God died on the cross for my sins. But there is one mediator between God and men the MAN Christ Jesus. The scriptures nowhere states that GOD died on the cross. When Jesus commended his spirit into the hands of his father God departed from that body allowing it to die. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world was the Son of God not God the Son. There is a difference. |
| Troy Day | How does this answer the question I asked? |
| Troy Day | Randal W Deese Dont lurtheran orthodoxy believe in Kenosis anymore? Acts 5:30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead–whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.Now how can Israel kill Jesus who is GOD? |
| Randal W Deese | I have no idea what Orthodox Lutherans are committed to |
| Troy Day | well we know there aint no lutheran pentecostals either so just take an educated guess as you do usual 🙂 Walter Polasik to defense of the the Tulsa bunch whom Dan Irving has long disbanded, I believe it was Joyce Mayer who was trying to explain how Jesus stopped being God on the cross – if I remember correctly |
| Randal W Deese | There are Lutheran Charismatics… you should talk to them. |
| Walter PolasikWalter and 89 | Randal W Reese: Yup, all one need do is check the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements edited by Gary B. McGee. |
| Troy Day | Randal W Deese using straw man fallacy as usual? Who’s talking about Lutheran Charismatics? I said “aint no lutheran pentecostals” You should really try to learn the difference |
| Troy Day | BTW Randal W Deese Walter Polasik I see you are shooting the breeze and not answering the OP question. Can you not? |
| Randal W Deese | I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven’t brought up any arguments… lol… really? |
| Troy Day | Stop avoiding the question in OP Randal W Deese The very theological construct does not solve the enigma of the relationship between the divine and human natures. (Indeed, that enigma cannot be solved.) It does, however, express the biblical teaching concerning the way in which Jesus of Nazareth lived out His life upon the earth, and thus reflects what the gospels teach concerning the functional relationship between those natures. |
| Ramsey Tamimi | No. The Word of God whom became human died. |
| Dan Irving | I love the way C.S. Lewis put it in his book, Mere Christianity: “OUR ATTEMPTS AT THIS DYING WILL SUCCEED ONLY IF WE MEN SHARE IN GOD’S DYING, JUST AS OUR THINKING CAN SUCCEED ONLY BECAUSE IT IS A DROP OUT OF THE OCEAN OF HIS INTELLIGENCE; BUT WE CANNOT SHARE GOD’S DYING UNLESS GOD DIES; AND HE CANNOT DIE EXCEPT BY BEING A MAN. THAT IS THE SENSE IN WHICH HE PAYS OUR DEBT, AND SUFFERS FOR US WHAT HE HIMSELF NEED NOT SUFFER AT ALL.” The book of Revelation directs our focus upon Him “THAT LIVETH AND WAS DEAD, AND BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, (Rev. 1:18) Apparently there is something vital in this principle and crucial to our sanctification, that the Everlasting/Ever-Living God, assumed mortal flesh, DIED, and was raised again, Eternal. |
| Shannon Eugene Byrd | No, that’s an ancient heresy. Moreover it makes no sense philosophically. |
| Walter PolasikWalter and 89 | Troy Day: Scroll up. I believe I already answered the OP. Jesus never stopped being God. He died physically but of course, as Scripture says, death could not hold Him. |
| Rebecca L Ringler | Jesus willingly have up his life for us. |
| Joe Absher | John 12:24 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.Jesus Christ willingly gave himself for our sin. A sacrifice. A ransom for all. He is the seed of the woman. The light of the world. The bread of heaven broken for you and me. And he is faithful, having been temped, yet without sin, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Emmanuel, God with us. Jesus life and death proves God’s love and care and willingness to redeem the worst of us and expose the rest of us. God is love. He that loveth not knoweth not God. That will mean sacrifice, faith, obedience, forgiveness and joy even when you’re climbing your last hill and taking your last breath. |
| Terry Wiles | Hebrew Bible does not say Thou shalt not “killâ€. It uses the word for “murderâ€. Murder is intentional and wrong. The Old Testament refers to those types of sin as “sins of the high hand.â€There was no salvation for such sins. Peter uses this phrase in his sermon. The Jews who were listening knew they were guilty of such for which. there was no sacrifice. There question was, what shall we do? Peter responded and the rest is history. But don’t take my word for it. Look it up. |
| Troy Day | You are most probably thinking KJV The hebrew language does not make difference Its all the same |
| Terry Wiles | Not according to Jewish scholars |
| Troy Day | Which Jewish scholars would that be ??? 🙂 Peter Fiske or Tom Steele ???Let us listen for one’s to the ACTUAL Torah scholars: At least two options present themselves for explaining the unexpected use of the verb רצח in Massei to refer to killing rather than homicide. Perhaps the root is used inconsistently in the Bible, and for some reason, in a small number of cases, it need not refer to murder; for a variety of reasons, languages contain such inconsistencies. Alternatively, we could say with Blidstein, that the lack of clarity of the root רצח is meant to teach us to abhor all killing of human beings.https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Terry Wiles | Check the translations of the majority of English translations which translate it though shalt not murder. When you read the complete article there is a defining difference between the concept of murder and the concept of killing. |
| Terry Wiles | Here is another Jewish authority.https://torah.org/learning/halacha-overview-chapter68/ |
| Troy Day | Yes Terry the major English translations are wrong as all follow the so called LATIN Heresy after Jerome’s Bible. The Rabbi in the article I posed explains it all very nicely for you Your article doesnt even touch on the issue #noughsaid |
| Peter Fiske | Terry Wiles, you’re actually correct, there is a different Hebrew word that describes murder, as in you shall not commit murder in Exodus 20, as opposed to executing or killing, not related to murder, as can be found in Exodus 19. |
| Troy Day | Peter Fiske Read the actual hewbrew words before you say any more nonsense https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Terry Wiles | Direct from Israel. #5 You shall not murderhttps://www.haaretz.com/…/the-ten-commandments-1.5416257 |
| Peter Fiske | Troy Day, the Latin Vulgate, which was translated by Jerome from the Greek Septuagint is the basis for the Catholic Bible, as well as for the King James Bible. Dake used the King James Bible, which means Dake is using by your own definition, a flawed text based on a flawed manuscript. |
| Troy Day | King James was translated from Textus Receptus – read the KJV very very long intro that explains it for you Terry again your link uses the words but does not prove your point Haaretz is a news paper not a scholarly resource 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day Here is anotherhttp://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-10-Commandments-Today.html |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day Another with murderhttps://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Judaism |
| Troy Day | vikidia – seriously? I can edit that same article tonight to say exactly the opposite. Read the article I posted. The Rabbi explains it very very simply |
| Terry Wiles | Troy DAY… One more”×œ× ×ª×¨×¦×—”“You shall not murder.†(20:13)QUESTION: Why is it that, when reading the Aseret Hadibrot in private, “lo tirtzach†is read with a patach, and when it is read in public — in shul — it is pronounced with a kamatz (“lo tirtzawch†in the Ashkenazi pronunciation)?ANSWER: The act of murder can be performed in two ways:1) Actual murder by shedding of blood.2) Shaming a person in public. This is considered as murdering him because the person’s blood drains from his face, leaving him pale as a corpse (Bava Metzia 58b).The two pronunciations of “lo tirtzach†allude to these two forms of murder. The patach, (literally “openâ€) which is pronounced with an open mouth, represents the type of murder in which a wound is opened in the victim and blood is shed. This is forbidden even in private.The kamatz (literally “closeâ€) is pronounced (in the Ashkenazi pronunciation) with the mouth somewhat closed, and it alludes to the form of murder that is committed by embarassing a person. Although the person is “closed up†— there are no open wounds and blood is not gushing out —he is nevertheless like a dead man. Such an act of murder takes place only in public.(שי ×œ×—×’×™× ×•×ž×•×¢×“×™× ×‘×©× ×”×¨×‘ ×™. צירלס×ן ×–”ל ×ž×§×¢×©×™× ×•×‘)https://www.chabad.org/…/jewish/Ten-Commandments.htm |
| Troy Day | Again nothing to do with what we are talking about here |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Troy Day Only in reference to kill or murder. but never what you want to talk about… 🙂 |
| Troy Day | Just cite Strongs and I will give up with no fight |
| Terry Wiles | lol |
| Troy Day | I know our AG taught you how to do a proper exegesis at one point of time right? |
| Terry Wiles | rotflol |
| Troy Day | Call tomorrow morning and ask for your money back 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles | https://www.chabad.org/…/aid/2957422/jewish/The-Manual.htm |
| Troy Day | Did JESUS stop being GOD at the cross? |
| Isara Mo | Marvelous question |
| Neil Steven Lawrence | Are you a gnostic? |
| Troy Day | Peter Fiske In his commentary on the Decalogue in Exodus 20:13, Rashbam (R. Samuel ben Meir, c. 1085-c. 1158) argues that רצח must mean “murder†and only murder:You shall not murder – The verb ר-צ-×— always – wherever it appears – refers to unjustified homicide. For example (Num. 35:16—I will deal with this passage below), “the murderer (הרוצח) must be put to death,†or (1Kings 21:19, of King Ahab, who killed the innocent Naboth), “Would you murder (הרצחת) and also take possession,†or (Isa. 1:21), “Where righteousness dwelt – but now murderers (מרצחי×).â€But the verbs ×”-ר-×’ and מ-ו-ת sometimes refer to unjustified homicide (i.e., murder) – e.g. (Gen. 4:8) “and he,†Cain, “killed him (ויהרגהו)†– and sometimes to justifiable homicide (i.e., execution) – e.g. (Lev. 20:16) “you shall kill (והרגת) the woman.â€Rashbam thus suggests that ×”-ר-×’ and מ-ו-ת are general terms, which may refer to homicide of any type, the equivalent of English “kill,†while ר-צ-×— is a narrower term, referring to unjustified killing, “murder.†|
| Troy Day | Peter Fiske Terry Wiles Where did you earn your MDiv in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic? What topic was the Biblical Hebrew thesis you defended on? – exactly. Yall are following western KJV tradition not Hebrew. KJV followed Jerome who of course was defending Roman law with his translation that makes specific distinction between killing and murder to justify wars and execution within roman democracy. Not so in Hebrew…So let’s turn to the actual Hebrew Rabbinic scholars who explain it for the ones who dont even know Hebrew reads from right to left and uses no vowels: As he does occasionally, Rashbam relates that he discussed this verse with Christians.[1] He told them that the decision of Jerome (347-420), the author of the Vulgate, the authoritative Latin Bible translation of Western Christianity, to use the same verb to translate רצח and הרג was mistaken.[2] The major purpose of Rashbam’s polemical point was probably to prove that Jews use reliable texts of the Bible while Christians, who read the Bible in inaccurate translations, do not.[3] Despite Rashbam’s polemic, it is uncertain whether a simple way of distinguishing between murder and killing existed in classical Latin.[4] https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Peter Fiske | Troy Day, what makes the 1st and 2nd Century AD rabbinical commentaries more accurate than early Christian commentaries? The rabbis rejected the Messiah, their concept of a messiah was of a warrior king that would rid them of the Romans. It wasn’t the concept of Messiah as we Christians understand who Jesus actually was. I’d be careful as to which sources of information you cite from. |
| Troy Day | Fiske the article explains – read it |
| Peter Fiske | Troy Day, there is a difference between murder and to kill (execute for a capital crime) in Hebrew. To kill/ execute is “muwth” (Strong’s H4191) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The Hebrew word for “murder” is “ratsach” (Strong’s H7523)https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm… |
| Troy Day | Strong? Really? That’s your level of he-brew 🙂 Forget it |
| Peter Fiske | Hebrew words in Strong’s aren’t inaccurate, if they were then the entirety of Evangelical hermeneutics would literally fall apart.”Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Biblehas been the standard Bible concordance for pastors, scholars, and laypersons for over a century.”https://www.thomasnelson.com/new-strong-s-exhautive…Apparently Strong’s exhaustive Concordance of Hebrew and Greek is good enough for most seminaries in the Evangelical world. So you’re saying that your source, whatever that is, is so *superior* to Strong’s Concordance that it makes it look ‘Mickey Mouse?’Finis Dake didn’t even have a doctorate in anything! Yet his commentaries are gospel for many theologically unsophisticated Pentecostal and charismatic clergy. At least Dr. Strong had a bona fide theological degree from an accredited Methodist Seminary.”In 1856 Wesleyan University granted him the degree of Doctor of Divinity (D.D.).” [Reverend steve williams. “Biography In Brief”. Bioinbrief.com. Retrieved October 7,2013.] |
| Troy Day | hey Peter Fiske back to OP that Isara Mo asked:Did God kill Jesus? |
| Peter Fiske | God became a man and died on a Roman cross 2,000 years ago for our sins. And what do you mean by *kill*, do you mean murder or execute? As I’ve shown, there is a difference in the Hebrew! |
| Troy Day | You will need to ask Isara Mo what he meant by kill And NO you have not shown there is a difference in Heb Peter Fiske You have attempted to show but was not able to prove any of what you were saying. Even with this example according to your theory Jesus would have been a justified kill according to the law Acts 5:30 proposes a great problem to your false theory Acts 5:30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead–whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.Now how can Israel kill Jesus who is GOD? |
| Peter Fiske | Troy Day, you’re not a Hebrew scholar by any stretch of the imagination, and as I’ve shown there is a clear difference in words and context for murder and death by execution. Can God die? The short answer to that is no, as he is the source of all life and energy within the universe, including us which we are part of the universe, as such the spirit of God or the Holy Spirit could have retreated from the human body of Jesus for 3 days while he was in the Tomb, and of course God was not cease to exist as if He would, the entire universe would literally disappear. Tell me, is there any evidence that the universe is ever disappeared, especially around 2,000 years ago at the time of the crucifixion? |
| Link Hudson | God cannot murder. |
| Troy Day | Link Hudson Can GOD die? |
| Isara Mo | God is an eternal spirit and as a Spirit , God cannot die..even if it indwells a body.Tough question: Can GOD die? |
| Anthony McCabe | Only the Humanity side of Christ died and NOT the God (Spirit) side of Christ (Yeshua)Shalom and blessings to you |
| Joe Absher | “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.’ – Deuteronomy 32:39,40I like revelation better the words of Christ. But thought put a little something in the offering… |
| Neil Steven Lawrence | Anthony McCabe through Jesus Christ death on the cross God experienced all the pain, suffering and death of mankind. But since Christ had never sinned he did not deserve to die, thus death could not hold him. I believe you mean he suffered physical death, which is correct. |
| Charles PageCharles and 89 | The Israelites were the wicked men. Peter is saying they killed Jesus. This was the foreknowledge of God. |
| Louise Cummings | Jesus said no man takes My life. But I lay it down Myself. He also said I could have called ten thousand angels to deliver me. But He laid down His Life Willing. To give redemption for lost humanity. There could have been no way any one could have killed Him. He was God in the flesh to deliver man kind from sin. He took our sins upon Him Self. To pay the debt we owed. Because we were the ones that sinned. No One could have pay that debt but Jesus. He could have come down from the Cross. Well I said He could have come down. But in a way He couldn’t. Because we would be forever lost. But as far as strength He could have. But for the sake as a way made for us to have a Bridge back to the Father. In that sense He Couldn’t. Our sins was Nailed to that Cross. He payed the debt that was ours to pay. What a Savior. But there’s no way anyone could have killed Him. He said I lay it down willingly. Besides it wasn’t just Jews. Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. Jews had not come along at this time. When Adam and Eve sinned. |
| Neil Steven Lawrence | God’s foreknowledge does not make him guilty of someone else’s sin of murder. The Bible definitely displays many cases of unjustified murder and justified murder. (I.e. execution). The one brother has shown properly (above) the different Hebrew words for murder and execution.Because of sin God needed to kill us – we are the ones who deserved to die, therefore God planned our death from the foundations by substituting himself in our place. Remember Christ could not be killed because he had never sinned so it is an oxymoron to say that God killed Jesus. Legally he killed us through Christ’s death. |
| Link Hudson | If God slays, He slays. He does not murder. We are on the same level, and if we slay, it can definitely be murder. But God is within His rights to slay as He wills. God cannot steal. The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness their us. He has first rights on property that supersede any of our claims. |
| Link Hudson | Genesis 38:7And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.He slew. He did not murder. |
| Randy H JohnsonRandy and 89 | Jesus said that no man took His life from HIm. He said that He had power (authority) to lay down His life and power (authority) to take it up again (resurrection). He said He received this authority (command) from the Father in heaven. So, no, God did not “murder” His Son. |
Louise Cummings
The Bible says nothing about Jesus burning in hell for our sins. When you go to hell for sins you don’t get out. He wasn’t a sinner. The Bible said He never sinned neither was guild found in his mouth. He did take the keys to death , hell and the grave from Satan. And set captives free but our Redemption was finished on the Cross. Because He cried loud and said it is finished. Father into or unto You I commend My Spirit.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish”. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished”.
This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been” or “it is” finished.
The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.
The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.
The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be”, i.e., “it is” in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence has some one hacked theology ?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Millions have tried!!!!! 😉
Varnel Watson
Jesus hacked my theology long time ago
Joe Absher
Peter said Jesus preached down there. People have called Jesus a lot of things but never a hypocrite.
Isara Mo
Joe Absher where is ” down.there?”
Hell?
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo here is the real theological dilemma behind your question
Neil Steven Lawrence
This whole confusion comes from a conflation of several scriptures (especially confused in KJV).
Isara Mo
Difficult to know..
When He died on the cross was it a spiritual death or a physical one?
The answer to this might give direction..
I believe Jesus died once on the cross….but I dont with what kind of body He with to hell….but if He went as a Spirit then surely a spritual death is meaningless…
Neil Steven Lawrence
To make the Son of God, (who had just defeated sin, death, hell, the grave, the devil, the flesh, and the world on the cross) go to hell after that great victory is a theological and common sense abomination!
Isara Mo
Where did He go to preach to the dead? Hell..sheol…hades?
Varnel Watson
This is a good question brother. Was paradiso part of hades?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Isara Mo this message in sermon note form should help with your question: https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-steven-lawrence/39-hours/1774544659293739/
Thomas Henry Jr.
Paradise was apart of Sheol
Neil Steven Lawrence
Thomas Henry Jr. which Scripture are you basing that on?
Thomas Henry Jr.
ill go dig up my notes on the grave hell paradise
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day here is my answer to this common confusion of where Jesus went immediately after the cross. It is probably one of the most common theological discussions I have had in my classes over the last 20 years teaching at Discipleship College – a COG East African regional Bible school. https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-steven-lawrence/39-hours/1774544659293739/
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence Jesus went to East African regional Bible school?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Yeah He’s there now . . . If u hurry you’ll catch ‘im !
Charles Page
No
John Houston
NO. JESUS WAS NOT REQUIRED TO SUFFER SPIRITUAL DEATH. HELL IS DIVIDED INTO TWO COMPARTMENTS, TORMENT AND PARADISE. JESUS DESCENDED INTO PARADISE, KEEPING HIS PROMISE TO THE THIEF, WHERE HE SET THE CAPTIVES FREE. THOSE FRIENDS OF GOD WHO WERE REDEEMED BEFORE THE CRUCIFIXION BY FAITH IN THEIR FUTURE MESSIAH, HE ALSO TOOK AWAY THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HELL FROM SATAN. HE DID NOT SUFFER.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Where did the Devil get the “keys” from? What are the “keys”? Why would Jesus need “keys” after He won all the victory & authority on the cross the moment He died? Which scripture are you basing your statement upon?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Yes this is a man made assumption
Varnel Watson
what is man made Grover Katzmarek Sr ?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
That there are two states or areas of hell.
Varnel Watson
I see. Where were OT saints held then?
John Houston
Troy Day Paradise.
John Houston
Neil Steven Lawrence OK Neil. You got me. The devil has never actually had control of death and hell. The reference was to simply point out that while Satan’s realm is typically refereed to as hell or the underworld, when Jesus descended into hell he took all authority there and relieved Satan of any authority he held over humans concerning their destiny once sanctified by His blood. The scripture reference is Revelation 1:18. No, it doesn’t say He took them, only that He possesses them. It is assumed that He appropriated them as a MAN, upon conquering death once he entered hell. You’re right, Satan never had keys to anything, but his power and influence were certainly smashed that day. The point is, Jesus did not suffer in hell. He delivered those who were waiting in Paradise for His promise. I should have been more careful with my answer. Thanks for the critique. I shall endeavor in the future to avoid using traditional references. I know they are often wrong. My bad.
Neil Steven Lawrence
John Houston I think part of the problem is many people have heard references to some of these false ideas… Some of which are preached and very demonstrative sermons, and therefore they assume what happens in the afterlife. Another false idea which comes from Catholic heresy is the idea that there are different compartments were souls are kept. Furthermore, that require some special effort to get the souls out. Apparently that has boomerang back on the idea that Jesus had to do something more than the cross to get the souls out. This contradicts so many scriptures which say that there is only one chance for someone to be in relationship with God and then the judgment. The Hebrews were also confused about the afterlife they simply called it: Sheol – which means the “place of shadows.“ by the time of Jesus the Jews understood that the righteous will be with God and unrighteous will be separate from him. They also had the concept of heaven. It was only Jesus who came and made the distinction that there is paradise or heaven where the believers go and “Gehenna” – the place of burning, where the unbelievers go.
In the New Testament, keys represent authority. We know that God has never given authority to the devil but that the devil has usurped authority from man. In the economy of God as I see the scripture indicates, God allows the devil to operate within a limited portion of man’s usurped authority. On the cross Jesus regained that authority for us. But we still must walk in the spirit in order to enact that we gained authority.
The idea that Jesus went to hell is actually an abomination. Furthermore, the idea that Jesus preached to sinners in hell and redeem them is pure foolishness. First the Bible clearly indicates there is only one chance and that after death there is no more chance to except God. After all the torment tell me which sinner, after hearing Jesus good news would want to remain in hell – none! Therefore mathematically according to their false teaching Jesus would have emptied hell of all sinners from Adam until the cross. Who would want to remain there – no one! This idea collapses on its own weight!
John Houston
SORRY AGAIN. DID I SUGGEST THAT JESUS PREACHED TO SINNERS IN HELL? THAT WOULD BE AN ABOMINATION. I’M PRETTY SURE I SAID THAT HE SET THOSE FREE WHO WERE ALREADY REDEEMED BY THEIR FAITH IN THE COMING MESSIAH. JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE YOU DIDN’T THINK I’M THAT FOOLISH. YOU CAN BLAME PETER FOR THE THEOLOGY THAT JESUS DESCENDED INTO HELL.
Acts 2:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. I GUESS IT’S THAT PHRASE “WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL” THAT HAS CAUSED DISSENSION. IT BEGS THE CONCLUSION THAT ONE CAN NOT BE LEFT SOMEWHERE HE HAS NEVER BEEN.
Neil Steven Lawrence
John Houston believers during the Old Testament times never went anywhere that they needed to be taken out of. Believers always go to be with God directly.Old testament believers look forward to the cross and New Testament believers look back to the cross. Heaven is dwelling with God, hell is separation from God. There is no in between
Maybe you would like to read my sermon notes/article bringing clarity to this issue:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-steven-lawrence/39-hours/1774544659293739/
John Houston
THANKS NEIL,. THAT CLEARS UP A LOT OF MISCONCEPTION AND ERRONEOUS TRADITION. OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE MINED THIS IN DEPTH AND FOUND VEINS OF GOLD I’VE NEVER BEEN ACQUAINTED WITH. IT IS UNSETTLING HOW WE TEND TO JUST ASSUME OUR PREACHERS AND TEACHERS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT AND ACCEPT THEIR THEOLOGY AT FACE VALUE, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE IN OUR CHRISTIAN INFANCY. HAVING SAID THAT, AFTER 48 YEARS I AM NOT ENTIRELY CERTAIN I AM EVEN OUT OF THE CRIB YET. NOW I HAVE TO GO CHECKING BEHIND ME AGAIN TO SEE WHERE I MIGHT HAVE MADE OTHER FALSE ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON TRUST IN A MAN. BUT IN LOOKING OVER YOUR NOTES I DIDN’T FIND AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION. IN ACTS 2:31, WAS PETER SIMPLY REFERRING TO THE TOMB WHEN HE SAID THAT CHRIST’S SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL? AGAIN, THAT STATEMENT SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT HIS SOUL WAS IN HELL FOR AT LEAST A TIME. OTHERWISE, WHY WOULD IT EVEN BE NECESSARY TO MAKE THAT STATEMENT? PLEASE CLARIFY. JH
Neil Steven Lawrence
John Houston In Acts 2:31 during Peter’s Pentecost sermon he is quoting Psalm 16:10 which is a messianic prophecy.: “he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.” The key words are “not“ and “nor“ further proof that Jesus did not go to hell after he left across.
John Houston
Not trying to be argumentative but a quote as I understand it is when you say repeat that someone else said verbatim. Obviously that isn’t true here. How do you reach that conclusion. By the way. Whether Jesus did or did not descend into hell to take care of some spiritual business is not going to shake my faith as you might well know, but I am never again going to even suggest that He did unless something or someone convinces me that he did. From all culmination of scriptures you have presented I conclude you are right, but the Acts 2:31 still bothers me. I don’t see a quote. I see what could be interpreted as a similar statement but when Jesus quoted scripture He didn’t use parallels, He used the same words. Help me out here. .
Neil Steven Lawrence
All the various scriptures that people have used to imagine that Jesus went to hell to preach to sinners are clearly refuted in my sermon notes/article.
First, to me the most obvious proof that he did not go into hell is what happened the second he surrendered his Spirit on the cross: a mighty earthquake took place and the veil in the temple was torn into. The temple holy of holy‘s is symbolic of the throne room of God. Since many Christians are not familiar with that idea they may not see the power of that symbolism which God did intentionally. In other words Jesus entered the holy of holy‘s on earth with his own blood and ascended directly to the heavenly throne room and there made offering for all the benefits we receive from his sacrificial act. After that wonderful victory how can we dare to think to make him have to go to a place of punishment reserved for the devil and his demons and rebellious sinners.
Secondly, it will contradict all kinds of scriptures which say that it is appointed unto men once to die and then face the judgment and that you only get one chance to either except or reject God‘s way. There are no second chances. So it is a contradiction to say that Jesus could preach to sinners in hell and get them saved.
Thirdly, the Bible clearly indicates that believers when they die, their spirit and soul go directly to be with God in heaven. There are no compartments where they need to be rescued out of – that is a heretical Catholic idea. We are protestants and that’s part of what we are protesting.
John Houston
OK, I never said or implied any of that. I have never believed Jesus suffered after the cross nor have I ever said so. My misguided understanding was that He went into paradise and declared freedom to those who were waiting for the Messiah. You made it clear that is a false doctrine in your sermon outline and I got it. I have no problem with the new revelation and accept it but You keep answering dozens of questions I haven’t asked and keep avoiding the one I have asked three times. I take it that you are just not going to. You seem to want to put words in my mouth and not in my heart. I will seek elsewhere. Thanks for your time.
Rebecca L Ringler
I thought part of what he did was tormenting evil spirits.
Neil Steven Lawrence
2 Thes. 1:9 “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
Nobody is tormented on earth as much as the evil spirits are already tormented. Because they know they have been cast out of the presence of the glory of God. That is the main torment they experience and the same torment sinners, when they are cast out of the presence of God, will experience as well. Why would Jesus torment them anymore? That sounds like the job of an evil villain in a Hollywood movie. Which Scripture did you get this idea from or was it a Hollywood movie? ?
Rebecca L Ringler
I think it was like he went and preached to them. I said the wrong thing and do not remember the passage. I will look at Jude.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Rebecca L Ringler If you have the time you can read my article/sermon notes to understand this spiritual reality more completely.
Here is my answer to this common confusion of where Jesus went immediately after the cross. It is probably one of the most common theological discussions I have had in my classes over the last 20 years teaching at Discipleship College – a COG East African regional Bible school. https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-steven-lawrence/39-hours/1774544659293739/
Rebecca L Ringler
Neil Steven Lawrence Thank you.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence several believers in the OT were rapture taken straight to heaven to be with GOD
Neil Steven Lawrence
Amen! Their faith in God and looking forward to the cross was sufficient for God to take them directly to be with him. All people will be judged based on the level of revelation they’ve been given up to the time they received it (Romans 2).
Joe Absher
uh oh
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Say what.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Grover Katzmarek Sr even Jesus said Abraham Isaac and Jacob are in heaven with God… God is not a God of the dead but of the living! There were many other saints during the Old Testament times besides those three. The dad that rose back to life when Jesus gave up his Spirit on the cross were not Old Testament saints but saints that had died recently and knew the people and their relatives in the city of Jerusalem. Otherwise how would people recognize them… Silly theories!
Christopher Noel Boggess
Very few walked with God
Not alot were taken up Troy Day
Neil Steven Lawrence
And even so Enoch and Elijah will have to return to the earth and die then be resurrected. They are the two witnesses in revelation. (“All who sin must die.”) But Jesus resurrection power will be applied to them three days laterk. If people would really think about it, it would “bake their noodle“ to realize that a 6000-year-old and a 4000-year-old are up in heaven in there un-regenerated body, waiting to come back down.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Christopher Noel Boggess How many and what standard are you using make this judgement!
Christopher Noel Boggess
Neil Steven Lawrence you got bible verses to back up enoch and elijah are the two witness3s
Christopher Noel Boggess
To answer your question the n
Bible
Neil Steven Lawrence
Christopher Noel Boggess they are the only two saints mentioned in the Bible that were taken from the earth by God. Moses was clearly and literally declared to be dead. The evangelist Phillip was translated from one place on earth to another place on earth.
Varnel Watson
There are way more than 2 you know Neil Steven Lawrence just about every saint taken from this earth was taken by God
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day yes all saints when they die are taken by God into heaven. The saints we are speaking about are the ones who have not yet died. They must come back down to the earth and die and then be raptured with their regenerated/glorified bodies– maybe like Jesus was taken into heaven at the Ascension.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
So many are so mistaken. To believe that when we die we float off to heaven or hell is a Catholic doctrine that the reformers did not deal with.
Those that hold to this belief do so based on three scriptures. Paul spoke twice and then in Revelation about the souls under the altar crying out how long Of Lord. Very similar to God saying to Cain your brothers blood cries out from the ground, yet we know this isn’t literal.
Peter preaching on Day of Pentecost said concerning King David his sepluhre is here with us he has not ascended to heaven.
Then Christ said in John 5 all that are in the graves shall hear my voice, not those in heaven.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Grover Katzmarek Sr remember that in the rapture all the bodies of mankind from Adam until the day of the rapture will join the souls and spirits of the saints that are already in heaven with Jesus. Next those who are still alive on the earth will be glorified and ascended to heaven at the same time with their spirit soul and body at one moment.
So it is figurative to say that king David is still here on the earth when actually that is only referring to his material body.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Christopher Noel Boggess “the one who sins must die“ – Enoch sinned and so did Elijah yet they have not yet died.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Neil Steven Lawrence cannot be proven from scripture, like I said that is Catholic doctrine
Neil Steven Lawrence
Grover Katzmarek Sr what is the Catholic doctrine?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Neil Steven Lawrence what happens at death
Neil Steven Lawrence
Grover Katzmarek Sr the body disintegrates the immaterial nature (spirit, soul, mind, emotions, etc.) goes immediately into eternity. Saints go to be with God in heaven. Sinners go to hell. Heaven is where God is. Hell is separation from God. At the rapture Saints who are already in heaven will have their bodies returned to them in the twinkling of an eye, and one twinkle later Saints who are on the earth will enter at the same time their bodies, soul, & spirits are transformed into the glorified eternal form. At the Great White Throne Judgement after the 1000 Year Reign, sinners from all time periods: OT, Church age, 1000 Year Reign will be brought from hell before the throne in complete form (spirit, soul, & body) and be judged by God and thrown into the eternal Lake of Fire. Then Death & Hell will be eliminated. The Saints will also be judged (not for the eternal sin – (which is “not believing in Jesus”), but they will be judged for their works and be given rewards. Then after all this we will live in eternity with the Godhead, the billions of angels, billions of saints, the 4 Living Beings, etc. in the New Heaven and New Earth (for the 1st Earth & Heaven where annihilated (Rev. 21:1). At death – there is no waiting, no soul sleep, no roaming the earth, no being held in compartments, no 2nd chance – period !!!!! (Eccl. 12:7) “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr no one has really come back to tell us but Jesus He said we go to be with Him
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day and then God gave us (NDE’s) !
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Troy Day we will be with Him after the last trumpet sounds and the general Resurrection and judgment takes place
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Neil Steven Lawrence so sad when people try to add or change scripture
Neil Steven Lawrence
So you believe in soul sleep in the grave?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Neil Steven Lawrence no I don’t believe in soul sleep as some like Herbert Armstrong and seventh day Adventist do. Yes the soul returns to God who gave it at death. I do believe Luke 16 is a parable.
Everytime Christ spike of His return it will be for the resurrection. This is why I now see how the pretist come up with their incorrect assumption that they do.
Even the apostle Paul teaching about Resurrection being so important. Even Job said I know on the last day I shall stand in my own flesh. There are more scripture about us awaiting the resurrection than the other
Christopher Noel Boggess
No he preached there
Varnel Watson
there where? Christopher Noel Boggess
Christopher Noel Boggess
1 peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Neil Steven Lawrence
The context of this passage is the Spirit of God preaching to the wicked people in the days of Noah. Peter- runs the ideas together, therefore it is confusing. The people in the days of Noah refused to believe therefore they are now in hell. Jesus preached to them through the Spirit in the days of Noah.
Charles Page
Jesus preached to the spirits in sheol/hades The message they heard from Noah was a call for action the message they heard in hell was a pronouncement of liberty
Christopher Noel Boggess
Hell he went to hadez
Christopher Noel Boggess
And riased the third day
Varnel Watson
John Houston Jesus did descend into hell That much we do know 7 steps down and 7 steps up
Grover Katzmarek Sr
If He we t to hell how was He and the their in Paradise together. Get it right, it’s not logical
John Houston
Many theologians teach that Hell or Sheol is divided into 2 compartments, torment, and paradise. According to many, He entered paradise only.
Charles Page
He went to both locations divided by a great gulf
Varnel Watson
Someone obey God and tell us what Grover just said
Joe Absher
“If he (Jesus) went to hell, how was he and the thief in paradise together.”
I believe is that Mr Katzmarek is saying. Probably some difficulty with spell check?
Neil Steven Lawrence
You people sure are making Jesus travel around a lot!
Joe Absher
I simply offered to rewrite Mr Katzmarek post since some of the letters got jumbled up. I have the utmost respect for missionaries. So you get a pass on the “you people”
Neil Steven Lawrence
Joe Absher purely joking with the “you people” – that how we sound funny in Kenya.
Joe Absher
I pray your good success and health and strength. Great joy open hearts and ready minds in Jesus name!
Varnel Watson
Well Joe Dake’s teaching explains paradise/paradiso or Abraham’s bosom were at that time in Hades where satan held OT saints until Christ’s sacrifice was offered. Jerome Herrick Weymouth has made several valid points of concern about that already
Joe Absher
I’m thinking he had a captive audience
Charles Page
His audience certainly wasn’t in paradise
They were with the rich man in torment
Jesus was also with the thief and Lazarus
Joe Absher
I’m having a little difficulty in understanding what you are say Mr Charles Page
1. “They (who?) were with the rich man in torment.”
2. “Jesus was also with the thief (in paradise) and Lazarus. But Lazarus was raised up and living at that time.
A little help?
Charles Page
Those who perished in the flood
Lazarus in Luke 16
Joe Absher
Right thank you
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence whats NDEs?
Neil Steven Lawrence
NDE is Near Death Experience
Varnel Watson
you’ve had any?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day If I did would you believe me?
Varnel Watson
probably – I’ve seen a few as a chaplain
Neil Steven Lawrence
I bet that was a powerful experience.
Varnel Watson
tell is all about your NDE 🙂
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day I haven’t had one, I was only joking about if I had one would you believe me! The main point is that because of modern medical science the events that people have of seeing into the afterlife are now being recorded in a more comprehensive way. They are not chemically induced visions but real visions scientifically proven. These are definitely evidence that God is giving us.
Varnel Watson
NDEs Ive seen a few – I did it my way 🙂
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr you crack me up 🙂
Neil Steven Lawrence
Grover Katzmarek Sr The resurrection for those who have died before the rapture will cause their bodies to join their spirit and soul in heaven. The resurrection at the rapture will cause those who are alive on earth and are believers to ascend into heaven with their spirit soul and body being glorified at the same time. Then we wait for seven years of tribulation and come back down to earth with Jesus in the second coming. The Bible clearly speaks about another resurrection which will take place at the end of the thousand year reign when all the rest of the people who have believed in Christ will have their bodies joined their spirit and soul in heaven and all the unbelievers from all time will ascend spirit soul and body out of Hell to the great white throne judgment. So there are actually two or more resurrections: one is at the rapture and the other is at the end of days before the great white throne judgment. Please and your confusion.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
The rapture. Seven year tribute? Where do you find this in New Testament? Christ didnt teach it. The apostles didn’t teach it. Only those that misinterpret Daniel 9:27 after the likes of Sir Robert Anderson and John darby
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr how did you start with Christ descent and ended up with the churches ascend in the rapture? Cracks me up
Varnel Watson
now thats a good one Isara Mo Jared Cheshire Mike Partyka Lyndsey Dunn Ana-Maria Plus Michael
Isara Mo
Troy Day Was the lake of fire in place when He died?. Am trying to figure that out before I answer
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo WAS it? The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish�. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished�.This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been� or “it is� finished.The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be�, i.e., “it is� in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it.
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day one can not defeat something they never experience or face. If he ascended he first descended. The wages of sin are death. He took the sins of the world. However he was not abandoned in hates. He now holds the keys to death and the grave having overcame. Now we can be called more than overcomers.
Varnel Watson
Lyndsey Dunn wow wow wow What does any of this explain OP – did Jesus taste or not spiritual death?
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day this is completely dependent upon our definition of “spiritual death.” What is your definition?
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day spiritual abandonment, forsaken by God, separated from God, spiritual location, state of existence?
Varnel Watson
Lyndsey Dunn but did He TASTE death?
Mike Partyka
Troy Day First Corinthians 15:26–28 says, “The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For ‘He has put all things under His feet.’ But when He says ‘all things are put under Him,’ it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”
Now note Hebrews 2:8ff: “For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we do not yet see all things put under Him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka but did Jesus taste DEATH ?
Mike Partyka
Troy Day Hebrews 2:9 is pretty clear
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka pretty clear that He did or didnt?
Mike Partyka
The Greek there means “to expierence” so the word of God clearly states that he DID.
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka Does it really? Are you sure? Does this mean TASTE too? I have experienced LOTS of things without tasting them THANK GOD in this virus season
Mike Partyka
Troy Day yes looking at the different times taste being used in the Bible, the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic have different verbs used. Gen 25:28 VS Hebrews 2:9 all different
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka WHICH GREEK word in Heb 2 means “to expierence” in your humble scholarly opinion ?
Mike Partyka
Troy Day γεύομαι
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka Do you actually mean γεύσηται?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day Jesus tasted death the way we do on earth. His body in the tomb is proof. But spiritual death = “second death” or “lake of fire” so… NO, Jesus defeated what He saved us from. Remember, all Saints throughout history have had to face the first death to pass into eternity. But the Bible also says Jesus took away the “sting” of that death too. “Oh death where is your sting, oh grave where is your victory.” Saints who are alive on earth during the Rapture will not have to “taste” the first death, they will be instantaneously glorified – body-soul-spirit.
Isara Mo
Troy Day
I don’t know Greek nor understand the intricacies of the ongoing discussions.. but I still have another question..
Did Jesus die TWICE?
At Calvary He breathed his last.. It is reported that he went to hell(?) to preach to souls of the departed.
No mention of him dying again..
I’m not a Bible scholar but the little that I know from reading the BIBLE show that He Jesus didn’t DIE AGAIN.. (My take Troy)
Neil Steven Lawrence
No!
Isara Mo
Neil Steven Lawrence
I concur
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence Mike Partyka The word γεύσηται (geusētai) used in Hebrews 2:9 V-ASM-3S has ONLY 2 Occurrences in the whole NT
BOTH times it means TASTE – not experience
and BOTH times is used about tasting DEATH
γεύσηται (geusētai) — 2 Occurrences
John 8:52 V-ASM-3S
GRK: οὐ μὴ γεύσηται θανάτου εἰς
NAS: he will never taste of death.’
KJV: he shall never taste of death.
INT: never not shall he taste of death to
Hebrews 2:9 V-ASM-3S
GRK: ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου
NAS: of God He might taste death
KJV: of God should taste death
INT: for every one he might taste death
Mike Partyka
Mathew 16:28 ?
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka oh dont be jumping around now What are your conclusions on Heb 2:9? Then Mt 16
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence why not? Isara Mo is correct of him knowing NO Greek Lyndsey Dunn has stayed out of this one
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Greek is tongues to me
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo true but what about the OP?
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day it seems he only tasted this form of death due to the fact of his temporary experience of it. The true nature of spiritual death is intertwined in the eternal existence prescribed to Jesus as in John. SpIritual death then intends to interfere with this eternal state of life connected to God in a very permanent way. Therefore Jesus “tasted” this death but was not abandoned into the pit as intended by the enemy. Therefore Jesus temporarily experienced spiritual death, tasted. In this he overcame that our spiritual death too may be defeated.
Varnel Watson
Lyndsey Dunn I know it seems like a technicality in the expression Isara Mo BUT as we showed Mike Partyka the GREEK is very very specific here and should NOT be disregarded with some fallacy mimicking Bible study
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Have answered.
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo partially at best
Mike Partyka
Troy Day even the Hebrew ta’am is figurative. You cannot literally taste death.
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka sounds like you lack exegesis
Neil Steven Lawrence
As I said above Jesus died (tasted) a physical death on the cross just like believers do throughout human history. But his death was a victory over death. And this way it was different then the death of unbelievers. He was the first fruits of our resurrection. Jesus death defeated death because he died of death that was unjust, therefore he could impart to all believers life the instant they die.
Jesus did not die a second death or a spiritual death. The Scripture is clear that a spiritual death or a second death equals what Jesus says “dying in your sins“ or being cast into the lake of fire.
And… NO Jesus did not go to hell!!
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence where is the the direct scriptural reference showing Jesus did not go to hell?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn if you want the full proof watch my one hour teaching on this issue which I have dealt with many times over the last 26 years of ministry in Kenya.
Besides the confusion that is in peoples understanding of Scripture – the very idea that people would think the Son of God would have to go to hell after defeating death, the devil, the grave, sin, and hell – is an insult.
https://youtu.be/G52f6XYK2dY
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence if it can’t be simplifying into a single statement the topic is mostly not understood. 1hr teachings don’t increase the
Validity of an argument, succinct and substantive evidence does.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence your argument of logic does not stand. In your logic it would be an insult to say he had to die at all to overcome death. That is a dangerous trail to trod.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn OK… What does the phrase Jesus spoke on the cross mean: “Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “today you’ll be with me in paradise.“
What does “today” mean?
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence it means today
Lyndsey Dunn
This is unrelated to the answer
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn if Jesus went down to hell for three days – as some people mistakenly believe he did – why would he “lie“ to the thief on the cross and say TODAY you’ll be with me in paradise?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn my message on this topic: 39 Hours is the most complex message I have ever preached. It is not a simple topic but perhaps the most powerful message I have ever taught.
Teaser: Jesus was not in the grave for three full days but only 39 hours!
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence paradise is not defined as heaven. Traditionaly this is ambiguously referring to different sets of after life. Another dimension if you will. Some say, God’s redeemed were in Paradise. Others incorporating Abraham’s bosom. Anyways, it is probably some place in the heavenlies.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn The idea of paradise and heaven being two different places is more of a Catholic viewpoint.
As my message explains, Heaven is all around us even though we can’t see it.
When Jesus It says he gave up his spirit and immediately there was a mighty earthquake and the veil in the temple was torn in two. This is a powerful statement God was showing the whole world, when Jesus went through the holy of holy’s curtain he entered the real heavenly throne room immediately.
Now you’re making me preach my whole message on Facebook.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence thanks for reemphasizing my point on dimensional understanding of paradise.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence the best message you ever preached is most likely the simplest not the more complex.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence we are not talking purgatory here, but ancient Hebrew and contemporary thinkers to Jesus.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn Kingdom principles are not that complex. They only seem so because people are in the process of coming out of the darkness into the light.
Jesus also didn’t take the keys away from the devil because God would never give keys to the devil!
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence that’s another fancy statement about the keys. Where is the scripture for that?
Lyndsey Dunn
This logic you seem to follow doesn’t show much need for Jesus to have defeated anything.
Lyndsey Dunn
Neil Steven Lawrence the first sermon of the gospel in Acts 2 found its effectiveness based on the logic presented by Peter quoting David in correlating the saviors experience of hell and it’s pain but not being abandoned to it. “27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.” He in fact found himself in the “realm of the dead.” He “tasted” death but did not stay. The argument should be based more on the time spent, what was accomplished, the events fortold, and the events that followed over the exact location. The Arguments against his visitation of the dead neglect these points because of their sole focus on locational logic over situational.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Lyndsey Dunn A misinterpretation of Matthew 16:13 -20
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence 39 hrs in hell what? Sounds like another bad interpretation by Mike Partyka
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day R U provoking me to sin?
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence NO but the question is important
Steve Losee
Scripture says nothing about that, so I won’t either.
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka claims he’s got the scriptures
Ray E Horton
WHERE WAS JESUS IN SPIRIT BETWEEN HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION?
I believe instantly with the Father. After that, the creeds tell us He descended into hell to defeat the devil, although the devil suffered his ultimate defeat at the Cross. The creeds are incorrect. Jesus did not go to the place of eternal suffering.
Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). That’s the more likely answer. Paradise, “Abraham’s bosom,” was the place where believers went before the cross, awaiting redemption. He “set the captives free.”
I really appreciate Darrell Chipman’s explanation: “We know our Lord descended to Paradise (Abraham’s Bosom-the place that people went and were held that were pleasing to God). Our Lord took these out of That place and took them to the surface with Him. Which was evidenced by them appearing to many. After 40 days when He rose to Heaven, he took those captives with Him. No one could enter Heaven until Christ paid the price for us all. Thank God He did this for us all.”
Varnel Watson
instantly with the Father – scripture for that pls
Louise Cummings
No
Louise Cummings
He went to get the keys from the devil. Now the devil don’t own any keys now. Jesus took them. Over death , hell and the grave. All power is in His hands now. Jesus paid the price on the Cross.
Varnel Watson
did he? Doyle Rogers Poppy Thompson
Jireh D Hormann
Jesus went to hell to set the captives free. Jesus is not the Spirit. Jesus is apart of the trinity, but not the Holy Spirit
Varnel Watson
Jireh D Hormann I think Stan Cooke may disagree
Jireh D Hormann
Troy Day Who is Sam Cooke and why would I care that he would disagree with the word of God? To be honest, this is one of the dumbest questions I’ve ever read.
Varnel Watson
Jireh D Hormann our brother is not Sam but Stan Cooke He just posted some difference between hades hell underwater underworld and paradise and dint quite catch
Anonymous
If those who believe in him never die, how could his soul have ever died?
Anonymous
He might have tasted maternal and death of material body due to our sins in paradise, but not spiritually. Then, He visited hell and resurrected back for resurrection. Amen!
Anonymous
what do you mean by that Philip Williams
Anonymous
Troy Day “Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?””
John 11:23-26
Anonymous
Philip Williams Ricky Grimsley TerryandNita Wiles Ricky Grimsley The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish�. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished�.This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been� or “it is� finished.The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be�, i.e., “it is� in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it. y
Anonymous
NO!
Anonymous
Steve Losee no? how so PLS explain
Anonymous
Troy Day I shouldn’t have to explain, since Scripture says nothing about this. It ONLY says “He went and proclaimed (not suffered) to the spirits in prison” without further explanation. The idea that He suffered in hell is downright heretical, no matter how many televangelists proclaim it.
Anonymous
Steve Losee so he never died?
Anonymous
Troy Day 1. Where did I say that? 2. what does that have to do with the original post?
Anonymous
He might have tasted maternal and death of material body due to our sins while crucifixion, but not spiritually. Then, He visited hell and resurrected back for resurrection. Amen!
Anonymous
we posted this for discussion like 2 weeks ago Kyle Williams WHAT is your main concern with it? Even Luther and Calvin believed in the kenosis of JESUS …
Anonymous
Troy Day no they didn’t. kenosis would imply a destroying of Christ’s divine nature by His incarnation. Orthodox Christology repudiates this notion.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams Martin Luther, “Disputation on the Divinity & Humanity of Christ”, 15pp
“In Christ there is a divine and a human nature, and these two natures in one person, so that they are joined together like no other thing, and yet so that the humanity is not Divinity, nor the Divinity humanity, because that distinction in no way hinders but rather confirms the union…. Two natures are united in one person, so that what is done by the human nature is said also to be done by the divine nature, and vice versa.” Luther here displays intimate knowledge of Augustine and the early fathers in his defense of the Chalcedonian view of Christ. How would you answer this argument on p. 5? “A human person is one thing, a divine person another. But in Christ there is both divinity and humanity. Therefore, there are two persons in Christ.” If you are not familiar with the subject of the communication of attributes, it would be good to check the encyclopedia above to help in understanding Luther’s view.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 2, Ch 13 “Christ Clothed with the True Substance of Human Nature,” 5pp
Christ “suffered his Divinity to be concealed under a veil of flesh.” (part 2) “For although the boundless essence of the Word was united with human nature into one person, we have no idea of any enclosing. The Son of God descended miraculously from heaven, yet without abandoning heaven; was pleased to be conceived miraculously in the Virgin’s womb, to live on the earth, and hang upon the cross, and yet always filled the world as from the beginning.”
Anonymous
Kyle Williams ?
Anonymous
Scriptural Basis of Kenoeis.
Ever since the middle of the nineteenth century, it has been usual among Protestant, and especially Lutheran, theologians to find the basis for a special doctrine of what is called the kenosis or self-emptying of Christ in the passage (Phil. ii. 6-8) where Paul says that Christ being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation (Gk. heauton ekenosen) and took upon him the form of a servant.” Although this doctrine is now of little influence among dogmatic theologians, the popularity which it enjoyed and its relation to the older dogmatic development makes a detailed treatment of it useful for the knowledge of the present condition of the Christological problem (see CHRISTOLOGY, IX., X.).
Anonymous
Luther’s Christology.
The question now arises whether the Lutheran theology supplied the defects of the earlier teaching on the Incarnation. Luther’s own teaching has so many sides that great care is needed to avoid misrepresenting him. Certain points may be brought out safely, however. (1) Luther adhered with equal firmness, during his whole public career, to the true divinity and the true humanity of the one historic person of Christ. (2) He was never inclined to bring the two into relation by anything like the theory of Thomasius, and as early as 1518 gave an exegesis of Phil. ii. 7, which would cut all Scriptural ground from under such a theory. (3) Phrases reminding us of Dorner’s view are indeed present in Luther’s earlier work; but it is impossible to explain his Christology by insistence on these. (4) He rather shaped his Christology from the first, and especially after the Lord’s Supper controversy, along the lines of a doctrine of the two natures understood in an anti-Nestorian sense; and it is indisputable that his view of the suffering of the Son of God and of the communication of the divine attributes (including omnipresence) to Christ according to his humanity was a scholastic development of the communicatio idiomatum as taught in the early Church (see UBIQUITY). (5) But in spite of all Luther’s polemics against the alloisis of Zwingli, it may fairly be asked whether he always regarded the communication of the divine attributes as real and actual. A number of logical difficulties in the way of this might be collected from his works, and sober thought must be convinced that the root of his doctrine was not in the teaching as to the two natures into which his historical position forced it to grow. (6) It is rather the ultimate datum of his Christology, that the historic person of Jesus was and is the God of revelation. The essential feature of his Christology is really this understanding of the revealing condescension of God, this harking back to “simple-modalistic” ideas. In connection with the notion of the dynamic indwelling of God in the man Jesus, this understanding of the historic personality of Jesus might have led to a new construction of Christology–if theologians had not been bound to the old tradition which constructed from above downward and to the scheme of the natures.
Anonymous
But since they were, the Lutheran development could lead to nothing but a scholastic working out of the idea of the communicatio idiomatum as extended by Luther beyond the traditional content of the term. Schools differed in the manner of this working out; but they agreed in denying any real kenosis of the Logos. Chemnitz and Brenz are at one not only in saying that in the Incarnation the Word retained the fulness of his God-head, but that this fulness was imparted to the humanity of Christ at the Incarnation. The only place where real kenotic ideas are found in the Lutheran theology of this period is among the Philippists; but even here they occur in nothing like the modern sense. When they speak of the Son of God “hiding” his majesty in our flesh and blood, or of an “exaltation according to both natures,” they are merely Crypto-Calvinists. It is against them that the condemnation of the Formula of Concord is pronounced: “We reject the opinion that to Christ according to his divine nature all power in heaven and in earth was restored at his resurrection and ascension, as though he had laid aside and stripped himself of that power, even according to his divinity, while he was in the state of humiliation.” The condemnation goes further than was necessary at the time, for neither Philippists nor Calvinists taught a “transmutation of the divine nature”; the important point is that it goes far enough to reach the modern kenotics. For the Giessen-Tubingen controversy see CHRISTOLOGY, IX.
Anonymous
No.
Anonymous
No.
His body perished and was resurrected as a glorified body.
His Spirit is eternal; it cannot taste “spiritual death.”
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish�. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished�.This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been� or “it is� finished.The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be�, i.e., “it is� in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it. https://probible.net/spiritual-death-or-physical-death-6/
Anonymous
No!!!!
Anonymous
Kyle Williams Philip Williams Martin Luther, “Disputation on the Divinity & Humanity of Christ”, 15pp
“In Christ there is a divine and a human nature, and these two natures in one person, so that they are joined together like no other thing, and yet so that the humanity is not Divinity, nor the Divinity humanity, because that distinction in no way hinders but rather confirms the union…. Two natures are united in one person, so that what is done by the human nature is said also to be done by the divine nature, and vice versa.” Luther here displays intimate knowledge of Augustine and the early fathers in his defense of the Chalcedonian view of Christ. How would you answer this argument on p. 5? “A human person is one thing, a divine person another. But in Christ there is both divinity and humanity. Therefore, there are two persons in Christ.” If you are not familiar with the subject of the communication of attributes, it would be good to check the encyclopedia above to help in understanding Luther’s view.
Anonymous
Troy Day Jesus Christ is(!) the Eternal Life. The Eternal Life is no a mortal life!
Anonymous
God forbid!
Anonymous
Kyle Williams ?
Anonymous
Troy Day The idea that Jesus died a spiritual death is heretical and injurious to the diety of Christ.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams Isaiah 53:10‒12
Isaiah 53:10‒12 is another passage that sets forth the spiritual aspect of Christ’s satisfactory death. Note especially that the word “soul” (nephesh) occurs three times in the passage:
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul [nephesh] an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul [nephesh], and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul [nephesh] unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Some who hold that Christ died only physically interpret “soul” (nephesh) in these verses as referring only to Christ’s body or physical life that He offered on the cross. They say the word “soul” in verses 10‒12 is limited in meaning to just Christ’s body rather than the immaterial part of Him. This theological view cannot allow the word “soul” (nephesh) in these verses to mean: (a) the immaterial part of man, or (b) the body and the immaterial part of man (i.e., a description of the whole person). Meaning “b” is the meaning of nephesh that occurs most frequently throughout the Old Testament. This physical/material + spiritual/immaterial meaning of nephesh occurs so frequently that we may safely say that it is the normal, primary meaning of the word, unless contextual factors indicate that a secondary meaning is intended.
The interpretation that “soul” in Isaiah 53:10‒12 refers only to Christ’s body appears to be theologically driven based on a preconceived doctrinal conclusion, for there is nothing in the context, grammar, or parallel usage of nephesh within Isaiah to limit its meaning to the physical body alone. Elsewhere in the Old Testament, nephesh most frequently refers to the person as a whole—material and immaterial. Genesis 2:7 says, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [nephesh].” Here, the body of Adam is formed from the ground, but there is no animating principle until God breathes into Adam’s body and he becomes a whole, living person. In a few instances in the Old Testament, nephesh is clearly used of the immaterial part of man in distinction to the material body (Gen. 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21‒22). This is the sense in which “soul” is used centuries later by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28 when He speaks of men being able to destroy the “body” but not the “soul” (Gr. pyschē = Heb. nephesh). In the Pentateuch, nephesh can even refer to a person’s “body” without its inner life (Lev. 21:1, 11; Num. 6:6, 11; 9:6‒7, 10). However, in the book of Isaiah, nephesh occurs in 10:18 in reference to the immaterial part of man, where Isaiah uses the expression “soul and body” to encompass the whole person. Isaiah 26:9 also uses Hebrew poetry’s standard form of synonymous parallelism to speak of the “soul” (nephesh) and “spirit” (ruach) as the immaterial, inner part of man (ruach cf. Dan. 7:15). Therefore, Isaiah’s use of nephesh permits the meaning of the word in 53:10-12 as being either (a) the immaterial part of man, or (b) the body plus the immaterial part of man (the whole person), but not (c) the body alone.8 Since nephesh never means the body alone everywhere else it occurs in Isaiah, to interpret the word this way in 53:10 would be an example of forcing one’s theological views onto the verse, which would be eisegesis rather than exegesis. Ironside fittingly concludes:
We read in Isaiah 53, “When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.” How tremendously solemn! He upon whom the law had no claim whatsoever poured out His soul unto death in the sinner’s stead. Let me remind you that it was not simply the physical suffering which our blessed Lord endured upon the cross that made expiation for iniquity. It was what He suffered in His holy, spotless soul, in His sinless being, when the judgment that our sins deserved fell on Him .