Is water baptism necessary to be saved?

Posted by Brody Pope in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

Is baptism in water a necessary step to be completely saved. I’m talking to both my Trinitarian and Oneness brothers in Christ. I’ve pondered it and I really just don’t know to be honest.

Tim Anderson [01/07/2016 6:34 PM]
From my understanding No, I have read that William Booth, Founder of the Salvation Army and other Christians do not practice water baptism at all.

Aaron Richards [01/07/2016 6:36 PM]
It is not a requirement to be saved. The Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, it is not of works so that anyone can boast. I believe in baptism 100%, but it is like foot washing and communion. We do it out of remembrance and the example that Christ gave us. The Blood paid purchased our salvation.

Billy Winneroski [01/07/2016 6:38 PM]
You are saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ; water baptism is just an outward, tangible way to profess that faith

Tim Anderson [01/07/2016 6:38 PM]
I just wonder why a person wouldn’t unless they had some limitations that prevented it.. Anyone know that thought process?

John Conger [01/07/2016 6:40 PM]
Thief on cross wasn’t baptized and before anyone says it was under the law, Jesus became his sacrifice or else he wouldn’t have been moved from hell to paradise

Andy Thompson [01/07/2016 6:40 PM]
I believe it is necessary or more required for those who have the opportunity while living a life on earth after salvation. However God’s mercy through Jesus for the the thief on the cross was because, well, Jesus knew he had true faith in his heart to be saved and it was impossible for him to be baptised. We ministers in the Pentecostal Holiness church believe in that mercy for deathbed salvations, etc. Refer also back to the gospels where it says those that come in the twelfth hour will receive the same reward.

John Conger [01/07/2016 6:43 PM]
Also in acts there are those who were baptized in Holy Spirit w evidence of speaking in tongues and then baptized in water. So if a person were not saved till water baptism then that means that they were baptized in Holy Ghost before they were saved. However everyone should be

Billy Winneroski [01/07/2016 6:46 PM]
Also, if water baptism was a “necessary step to be completely saved,” one could argue that they were baptized as a baby

Tim Anderson [01/07/2016 6:48 PM]
Water baptism in N.T. “followed” believing not preceeding it (salvation), but I know it happens. Some groups do a thorough investigation of those who offer themselves for water baptism, some not so much.

Tim Anderson [01/07/2016 6:50 PM]
I have studied some about the “washing” from O.T. which is what I understand is how N.T. baptism “sprang” from. Can anyone elaborate on the Laver in the Temple?

Mary Dinnan [01/07/2016 6:57 PM]
What does the BIBLE say??????

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 6:58 PM]
Pope knows how to provoke ’em 🙂

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 7:05 PM]
Thief on cross John Conger [period]

Tim Anderson [01/07/2016 7:06 PM]
“necessary step to be completely saved ” Can a person be half saved? 🙂

Curtis Fenison [01/07/2016 7:06 PM]
LOL. How do you educate the death and blind. Keep it Simple. Thankyou Thief on the Cross.

Brody Pope [01/07/2016 7:07 PM]
Can it be that it is necessary if you have the opportunity but not necessary if you don’t have the opportunity?

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 7:08 PM]
you baptist friends are rubbing on you too much 🙂 Pope

Curtis Fenison [01/07/2016 7:09 PM]
I love Provocateurs.

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 7:10 PM]
you probably mean provokers in you own educated way 🙂

Derrick Harmon [01/07/2016 7:34 PM]
I approach this question from another question: why do you really want to know? What’s the motivation? This “do I have to be baptized to be saved question” is close to “what is the least thing that I have to do to get to heaven”. People ask this about tongues all the time: “Do I have to speak in tongues to go to heaven?” Why do you really want to know? I feel like saying, “If you have to ask, then, Yes!”

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 7:37 PM]
and I agree with Derrick Harmon YES – You need it all to obtain the fullness. The whole Armor of God. Salvation, sanctification, water baptism, Holy Ghost baptism. Everything made available to you b y Christ. That’s like a solider asking “But do I really need a helmet and gun.” Steve

Derrick Harmon [01/07/2016 7:42 PM]
It’s called the via salutis. All along the way of life there are crisis experiences that we face that we will have to make a decision about: do we go forward in discipleship or shrink back to complacency. Baptism is an experience that we have with the Almighty.

Steve Webb [01/07/2016 7:43 PM]
Well, since I was tagged here I will offer a poor answer. If you have the opportunity to be baptized and are not then you need to get saved. Now, there is the point of the thief on the cross beside Christ. This fellow had no opportunity but was sincere in repentance… The same could be argued with Holy Ghost baptism. You know it, you believe it, but yet you fail to seek the fullness of what God has for you? I’ll just leave that conversation for another thread.

Ashley Bailey [01/07/2016 7:45 PM]
The thief on the cross would have been in bad shape if he had to be baptized.

Derrick Harmon [01/07/2016 7:46 PM]
Yeah, but I would certainly call that an exception rather than the rule. He was at the end of his life. What do you say to a 30 year old man or woman?

John Kissinger [01/07/2016 7:46 PM]
the thief on the cross was in a bad shape to begin with

Derrick Harmon [01/07/2016 7:47 PM]
Baptism was the rule for new converts to Christianity.

343 Comments

  • Reply June 3, 2017

    Dan Irving

    Are we saved directly by water baptism? No. But it is a “like figure” of our determination to maintain a clean conscience before God. (I Pet 3:21) And this, is the only forum in which the Holy Spirit can do His work within us, sanctifying us, bringing us into glory. And this is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit often attends water baptism. Can we be saved not having been baptized? Yes. (Lk 23:43) But thief on the cross could never have planned it that way.

  • Reply June 3, 2017

    Street Preacherz

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Randal W Deese you probably believe one needs to be baptized (even as a baby) to even become part of the church

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Absolutely! I used to believe what you believed but it is too weak hermeneutically…*wink*

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I dont know a single Pentecostal that would believe that I tend to think Melvin Shomo is right on this one

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Melvin Shomo

      LOL

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Scott Phillips

    The answer to the question is pretty obvious from scripture. However add a little Traditional Questions and DOubt to erase the truth of scripture… and the answer quickly becomes,

    “Baptism is not important.”

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    It is a modern novel doctrine to teach that Baptism is unnecessary.

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    David Chambers I think your example with the thief on the cross is solid. More over it was Jesus, not a theologian or a priest, who told the thief he will be saved – no need of water baptism whatsoever Furthermore Randal W Deese is simply wrong in his statement that all theologians demanded water baptism for the first 15 centuries. This is simply not true Not even if you only examine organized religion in the first 15c

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    The Thief on the Cross

    Three scriptural reasons why this is an invalid argument

    Some will ask, “Well, what about the thief on the cross? He wasn’t baptized and Jesus very clearly told him he would be in paradise. Doesn’t that prove baptism in not essential for salvation?”

    This is a perfectly valid question and makes sense at first glance.

    However, the problem arises from not having a clear understanding of what baptism represents and what the scriptures tell us about it. According to Romans 6:3-6, baptism represents being unified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. The problem with the thief on the cross when Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise, is that Jesus was still alive. Christ had not yet died or been buried, so He had certainly not risen yet either. Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.

    I) The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.

    II) But besides that, when Christ was on this earth, He had the authority to forgive people of their sins. Look at Mark 2:9-12:

    Which is easier, to tell the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven;’ or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your bed, and walk? ‘But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — he said to the paralytic — “I tell you, arise, take up your mat, and go to your house.” He arose, and immediately took up the mat, and went out in front of them all; so that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

    When Christ was on the cross, He was still on this earth. And He had the authority to forgive sins.

    III) An additional point to consider: To even position the argument about the thief on the cross one must be able to prove he was never baptized. But consider the following verses:

    Mark 1:4-5
    John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then ALL the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

    So who can really say the thief was never baptized before he was crucified? According to Mark 1:4-5 there is a plausible chance he was!

    Oh well

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    except that none of this is what Jesus says in the Bible to the thief now is it?

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    The point is hermeneutically valid – that is all that matters. You cannot prove otherwise. Simple

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    Now a history lesson…

    What did early Christian Leaders believed about Water Baptism before AD 400
    Water Baptism Essential to Salvation
    110-165 AD Martyr “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all… And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe.” (Justin Martyr, “First Apology,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)

    110-165 AD Martyr The “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles” also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus…. “He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again: ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'” (Justin Martyr “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)

    110-165AD Martyr “there is no other way [to obtain God’s promises] than this-to become acquainted with Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the remainder, to live sinless lives.” (Justin Martyr, Trypho chap. 44)

    110-165AD Martyr “Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”‘ [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    115-188 THEOPHILUS “On the fifth day the living creatures which proceed from the waters were produced, through which also is revealed the manifold wisdom of God in these things; for who could count their multitude and various kinds? Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men’s being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration, as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God.” (Theophilus, “To Autolycus,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 101)

    115AD Second Clement “For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7)

    120-205 AD IRENAEUS “As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, “Fragments From Lost Writings”, no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)

    120-205 AD IRENAEUS “This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith.” (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, ‘the waters’ were the first to receive the precept ‘to bring forth living creatures.’ Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)

    140-230 AD Tertullian “Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins” (Baptism 7:2).

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, ‘For Christ sent me not to baptize;’ as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the ‘peacemaking’ apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent ‘not to baptize, but to preach.’ For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizing withal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 676)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith… The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “How mighty is the grace of water, in the sight of God and His Christ, for the confirmation of baptism! Never is Christ without water: if, that is, He is Himself baptized in water; inaugurates in water the first rudimentary displays of his power, when invited to the wedding; invites the thirsty, when He makes a discourse, to Himself being living water; approves, when teaching concerning love, among works of charity, the cup of water offered to a poor child; recruits His strength at a well; walks over the water; willingly crosses the sea; ministers water to his disciples. Onward even to the passion does the witness of baptism last: while He is being surrendered to the cross, water intervenes; witness Pilate’s hands: when He is wounded, forth from His side bursts water; witness the soldier’s lance!… True and stable faith is baptized with water, unto salvation; pretended and weak faith is baptized with fire, unto judgment.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 673, 674)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “The prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none’ chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 674-675)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “What more disgraceful than immodesties? If, moreover, even from a ‘brother’ who ‘walketh idly’ he warns the Thessalonians to withdraw themselves, how much more withal from a fornicator! For these are the deliberate judgments of Christ, ‘loving the Church,’ who ‘hath delivered Himself up for her, that He may sanctify her (purifying her utterly by the laver of water) in the word, that He may present the Church to Himself glorious, not having stain or wrinkle’ – of course after the laver – ‘but that she may be holy and without reproach; thereafter, to wit, being ‘without wrinkle’ as a virgin, ‘without stain’ (of fornication) as a spouse, ‘without disgrace’ (of vileness), as having been ‘utterly purified.'” (Tertullian, “On Modesty,” 217 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, pg. 94)

    140-230 AD TERTULLIAN This is in agreement to the context of the words of John the Baptist when he prophesied of the baptism of fire. Referring to Jesus, John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (comment on Matthew 3:11-12).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    150-200 AD CLEMENT “Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal… This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted; and illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.” (Clement of Alexandria, “The Instructor,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 215)

    150-200 AD CLEMENT “But when the time began to draw near that what was wanting in the Mosaic institutions should be supplied, as we have said, and that the Prophet should appear, of whom he had foretold that He should warn them by the mercy of God to cease from sacrificing; lest haply they might suppose that on the cessation of sacrifice there was no remission of sins for them He instituted baptism by water amongst them, in which they might be absolved from all their sins on the invocation of His name.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 88)

    150-200 AD CLEMENT “Now God has ordered every one who worships Him to be sealed by baptism; but if you refuse, and obey your own will rather than God’s, you are doubtless contrary and hostile to His will. But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it he is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 155)

    150-200 AD Clement “This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalties of our sins are canceled. And illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.” (Clement Instructor bk. 1, chap. 6)

    150-200 AD CLEMENT “We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing… In the same way, therefore, we also, repenting of our sins, renouncing our iniquities, purified by baptism, speed back to the eternal light, children to the Father.” (Clement of Alexandria, “The Instructor,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 216-217.)

    150-200 AD CLEMENT “When he had given them these and such like precepts, he made proclamation to the people, saying: ‘Since I have resolved to stay three months with you, if any one desires it, let him be baptized; that, stripped of his former evils, he may for the future, in consequence of his own conduct, become heir of heavenly blessings, as a reward for his good actions.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 132)

    181 AD Theophilus of Antioch “Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus 12:16).

    190 AD Irenaeus of Lyons “`And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: `Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Fragment 34).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    200 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ?” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388)

    200 AD Cyprian of Carthage “While I was lying in darkness . . . I thought it indeed difficult and hard to believe . . . that divine mercy was promised for my salvation, so that anyone might be born again and quickened unto a new life by the laver of the saving water, he might put off what he had been before, and, although the structure of the body remained, he might change himself in soul and mind. . . . But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of rebirth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man” (To Donatus 3)

    200 AD HERMAS “And I said, ‘I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sin.’ He said to me, ‘That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case.'” (Hermas, “The Shepherd,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 22)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Aurelius of Utica said: Since the apostle says that we are not to communicate with other people’s sins, what else does he do but communicate with other people’s sins, who holds communion with heretics without the Church’s baptism? And therefore I judge that heretics must be baptized, that they may receive forgiveness of their sins; and thus communion may be had with them.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 569.)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Caecilius of Bilta said: I know only one baptism in the Church, and none out of the Church. This one will be here, where there is the true hope and the certain faith. For thus it is written: ‘One faith, one hope, one baptism;’ not among heretics, where there is no hope, and the faith is false, where all things are carried on by lying.” (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Marcellus of Zama said: Since sins are not remitted saved in the baptism of the Church, he who does not baptize a heretic holds communion with a sinner.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 570)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Nicomedes of Segermae said: My opinion is this, that heretics coming to the Church should be baptized, for the reason that among sinners without they can obtain no remission of sins. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Novatus of Thamugada said: Although we know that all the Scriptures give witness concerning the saving baptism, still we ought to declare our faith, that heretics and schismatics who come to the Church, and appear to have been falsely baptized, ought to be baptized in the everlasting fountain; and therefore, according to the testimony of the Scriptures, and according to the decree of our colleagues, men of most holy memory, that all schismatics and heretics who are converted to the Church must be baptized; and moreover, that those who appeared to have been ordained must be received among lay people. (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victor of Gor said: Since sins are not remitted save in the baptism of the Church, he who admits a heretic to communion without baptism does two things against reason: he does not cleanse the heretics, and he befouls the Christians.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victoricus of Thabraca said: If heretics are allowed to baptize and to give remission of sins, wherefore do we brand them with infamy and call them heretics?” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE Dativus of Badis said: We, as far as in us lies, do not hold communion with heretics, unless they have been baptized in the Church, and have received remission of their sins.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE Felix of Bagai said: As, when the blind leads the blind, they fall together into the ditch; so, when the heretic baptizes a heretic, they fall together into death. And therefore a heretic must be baptized and made alive, lest we who are alive should hold communion with the dead. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

    200-258 AD CARTHAGE Nemesianus of Thubunae said: That the baptism which heretics and schismatics bestow is not the true one, is everywhere declared in the Holy Scriptures, since their very leading men are false Christs and false prophets, as the Lord says by Solomon: ‘He who trusteth in that which is false. he feedeth the winds…’ And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 566.)

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Absolutely not. We can pick the Greek of course but you aint got no point here. Furthermore, either way Jesus said it in Luke 23 43 in Aramaic most certainly does not teach a mandatory water baptism.

    You have done well to come down on your claim from 1500 to 400 AD but still there are plenty of examples of churches who did not practice water baptism as mandatory – neither for adults nor for children.

    To put it simply – you can copy past all you want but the Bible is against your claim on this one

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But as often as water is named alone in the Holy Scriptures, baptism is referred to, as we see intimated in Isaiah: ‘Remember not,’ says he, ‘the former things, and consider not the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing, which shall now spring forth; and ye shall know it. I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry place, to give drink to my elected people, my people whom I have purchased, that they might show forth my praise.’ There God foretold by the prophet, that among the nations, in places which previously had been dry, rivers should afterwards flow plenteously, and should provide water for the elected people of God, that is, for those who were made sons of God by the generation of baptism…. Christ… cries and says, ‘If any man thirst, let him come and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture saith, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’ And that it might be more evident that the Lord is speaking there, not of the cup, but of baptism, the Scripture adds, saying, ‘But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive.’ For by baptism the Holy Spirit is received… As also, in another place, the Lord speaks to the Samaritan woman, saying, ‘Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again; but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall not thirst for ever.’ By which is also signified the very baptism of saving water, which indeed is once received, and is not again repeated..” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 360)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But if the baptism of heretics can have the regeneration of the second birth, those who are baptized among them must be counted not heretics, but children of God. For the second birth, which occurs in baptism, begets sons of God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 393)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ? For it is the Church alone which, conjoined and united with Christ, spiritually bears sons; as the same apostle again says, ‘Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it with the washing of water.’ If, then, she is the beloved and spouse who alone is sanctified by Christ, and alone is cleansed by His washing, it is manifest that heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, nor can be cleansed nor sanctified by His washing, cannot bear sons to God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “For he who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually re-formed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit; since the apostle says, ‘As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.’ (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 387-388)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Moreover, Peter himself… has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved, except by the one only baptism of one Church. ‘In the ark,’ says he, ‘of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, as also baptism shall in like manner save you.’ In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! For as, in that baptism of the world in which its ancient iniquity was purged away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water, so neither can he appear to be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark. (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 389)

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Peter… said, ‘In the ark of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water; the like figure whereunto even baptism shall save you;’ proving and attesting that the one ark of Noah was a type of the one Church. If, then, in that baptism of the world thus expiated and purified, he who was not in the ark of Noah could be saved by water, he who is not in the Church to which alone baptism is granted, can also now be quickened [made alive] by baptism. Moreover, too, the Apostle Paul, more openly and clearly still manifesting this same thing, writes to the Ephesians, and says, ‘Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water.'” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 398)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Since, therefore, from the preaching and testimony of Christ Himself, the Father who sent must be first known, then afterwards Christ, who was sent, and there cannot be a hope of salvation except by knowing the two together; how, when God the Father is not known, nay, is even blasphemed, can they who among the heretics are said to be baptized in the name of Christ, be judged to have obtained the remission of sins?” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 383.)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “What then, say they, will become of those who, coming from the heretics, have been received without the baptism of the Church?… But they… should be baptized with the baptism of the Church, that they may obtain remission of sins, lest by the presumption of others they remain in their old error, and die without the completion of grace.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 395)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Wherefore baptism cannot be common to us and to heretics, to whom neither God the Father, nor Christ the Son, nor the Holy Ghost, nor the faith, nor the Church itself, is common. And therefore it behooves those to be baptized who come from heresy to the Church, that so they who are prepared, in the lawful, and true, and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 384)

    200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Widely different is the faith with Marcion, and, moreover, with the other heretics; nay, with them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained remission of sins, and the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true; but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed. This matter of profane and adulterous baptism Jeremiah the prophet plainly rebukes, saying, ‘Why do they who afflict me prevail? My wound is hard; whence shall I be healed ? While it has indeed become unto me as deceitful water which has no faithfulness.’ The Holy Spirit makes mention by the prophet of deceitful water which has no faithfulness. What is this deceitful and faithless water? Certainly that which falsely assumes the resemblance of baptism, and frustrates the grace of faith by a shadowy pretense. But if, according to a perverted faith, one could be baptized without, and obtain remission of sins, according to the same faith he could also attain the Holy Spirit; and there is no need that hands should be laid on him when he comes, that he might obtain the Holy Ghost, and be sealed. Either he could obtain both privileges without by his faith, or he who has been without has received neither. But it is manifest where and by whom remission of sins can be given; to wit, that which is given in baptism.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 381)

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    200-258 AD Cyprian, said of his own baptism, “Considering my character at the time, I used to regard it as a difficult matter that a man should be able to be born again…. Or that a man who had been revived to a new life in the bath of saving water could be able to put off what he had formerly been-that he could be changed in heart and soul, while retaining his physical body…. For as I myself was held in bonds by the innumerable errors of my previous life, from which I did not believe that I could by possibility be delivered, so I was disposed to acquiesce in my clinging vices, and because I despaired of better things, I used to indulge my sins as if they were actually a part of me, inherent in me. But later, by the help of the water of new birth, the stain of former years was washed away, and a light from above-serene and pure was infused into my reconciled heart. Then through the Spirit breathed from heaven, a second birth restored me to a new man.” (Cyprian To Donatus sec. 3, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 276)

    203 AD Tertullian “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism–which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes–by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1).

    203 AD Tertullian “[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, `Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'” (Baptism 12:1).

    215 AD Hippolytus “And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will” (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1).

    217 AD Hippolytus “The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8).

    221 AD The Recognitions of Clement “But you will perhaps say, `What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: `Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9).

    240 AD Testimonies Concerning the Jews “That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5] . . . ‘ Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works” (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25-26).

    248 AD Origen “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which are washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    250 AD Ignatius of Antioch “Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6).

    253 AD Cyprian: “Moreover, Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved, except by the one only baptism of one Church. “In the ark,” says he, “of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, as also baptism shall in like manner save you.” In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! For as, in that baptism of the world in which its ancient iniquity was purged away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water, so neither can he appear to be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark.” (Cyprian, Epistle 73:11)

    253 AD Cyprian of Carthage “[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, `Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'” (Letters 71[72]:1).

    256 AD Council of Carthage VII “And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, `Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ” (VII Carthage).

    256 AD Cyprian of Carthage “[I]t behooves those to be baptized … so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written `Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'” (72[73]:21).

    260-315 AD METHODIUS “For thus will it be most certainly agreed that the Church is formed out of His bones and flesh; and it was for this cause that the Word, leaving His Father in heaven, came down to be ‘joined to His wife;’ and slept in the trance of His passion, and willingly suffered death for her, that He might present the Church to Himself glorious and blameless, having cleansed her by the laver.” (Methodius, “The Banquet of the Ten Virgins,” 260 to 312 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 6, pg. 319)

    340 AD Aphraahat the Persian Sage “From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . . [I]n the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises 6:14:4).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    345 AD CYRIL “For all things whatsoever thou hast done shall be forgiven thee, whether it be fornication, or adultery, or any other such form of licentiousness. What can be greater sin than to crucify Christ? Yet even of this Baptism can purify. For so spake Peter to the three thousand who came to him, to those who had crucified the Lord, when they asked him, saying, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ For the wound is great. Thou hast made us think of our fall, O Peter, by saying, ‘Ye killed the Prince of Life.’ What salve is there for so great a wound? What cleansing for such foulness? What is the salvation for such perdition? ‘Repent,’ saith he, ‘and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ O unspeakable lovingkindness of God! They have no hope of being saved, and yet they are thought worthy of the Holy Ghost. Thou seest the power of Baptism!” (Cyril of Jerusalem, 348AD, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16)

    345 AD CYRIL “The Lord… has granted repentance at Baptism, in order that we may cast off the chief – nay rather the whole burden of our sins, and having received the seal by the Holy Ghost, may be made heirs of eternal life.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16)

    345 AD CYRIL “When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Ghost: for without both thou canst not possibly be made perfect. It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He saith, ‘Except a man be born anew’ (and he adds the words) ‘of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ Neither doth he that is baptized with water, but not found worthy of the Spirit, receive the grace in perfection. Nor if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but receive not the seal by water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “Catechetical Lectures,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 15.)

    350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12).

    350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, `Unless a man be born again’ and he adds the words `of water and of the Spirit’ `he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it” (Catechetical Lectures 3:4).

    360 AD Athanasius “[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33]).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    375 AD Basil the Great “This then is what it means to be `born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit, 15:35).

    379 AD Basil the Great “For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, the death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a royal protector, a gift of adoption” (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects 13:5).

    381 AD Ambrose of Milan “Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God” (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75-76]).

    381 AD Ambrose of Milan “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism. . . . `Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'” (Abraham 2:11:79-84).

    381 AD Ambrose of Milan “The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins” (Commentary on Luke 2:83).

    381 AD Ambrose of Milan “You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for `unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'” (The Mysteries 4:20).

    381 AD Council of Constantinople I “We believe . . . in one baptism for the remission of sins” (Nicene Creed).

    382 AD Gregory of Nyssa “[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the first-born of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius 2:8).

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    387 AD John Chrysostom “[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed Head” (The Priesthood 3:5-6).

    388 AD Gregory Nazianz “Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism 7-8).

    390 AD CRYSOSTOM “In the Law, he that hath sin is punished; here, he that hath sins cometh and is baptized and is made righteous, and being made righteous, he liveth, being delivered from the death of sin… For in Baptism the sins are buried, the former things are blotted out, the man is made alive, the entire grace written upon his heart as it were a table.” (John Crysostom, “Homilies on Second Corinthians,” 390 AD, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 12, pg. 307)

    400 AD The Apostolic Constitutions “Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13] . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, `Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, `He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned'” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15).

    419 AD Augustine “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ–it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven'” [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7).

    75 AD The Letter of Barnabas “Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1Letter of Barnabas 11:1)

    80 AD Hermas “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is'” (The Shepherd 4:3:1)

    CONSTITUTIONS “Let him, therefore, who is to be taught the truth in regard to piety be instructed before his baptism in the knowledge of the unbegotten God, in the understanding of His only begotten son, in the assured acknowledgment of the Holy Ghost…. Adore God, the Lord of the whole world, and thank Him for His creation, for His sending Christ His only begotten Son, that He might save man by blotting out his transgressions, and that He might remit ungodliness and sins, and might ‘purify him from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,’ and sanctify man according to the good pleasure of His kindness, that He might inspire him with the knowledge of His will, and enlighten the eyes of his heart to consider of His wonderful works, and make known to him the judgments of righteousness, that so he might hate every way of iniquity, and walk in the way of truth, that he might be thought worthy of the laver of regeneration, to the adoption of sons, which is in Christ, that ‘being planted together in the likeness of the death of Christ,’ in hopes of a glorious communication, he may be mortified to sin, and may live to God, as to his mind, and word, and deed, and may be numbered together in the book of the living. ” (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 475-476)

    FIRMILIAN “But indeed you are worse than all heretics. For when many, as soon as their error is known, come over to you from them that they may receive the true light of the Church, you assist the errors of those who come, and, obscuring the light of ecclesiastical truth, you heap up the darkness of the heretical night; and although they confess that they are in sins, and have no grace, and therefore come to the Church, you take away from them remission of sins, which is given in baptism, by saying that they are already baptized and have obtained the grace of the Church outside the Church, and you do not perceive that their souls will be required at your hands when the day of judgment shall come.” (Firmilian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 396)

    PHILIP “Nicanora having thus spoken, the Apostle Philip, along with Bartholomew and Mariamme and those with them, prayed for her to God, saying: Thou who bringest the dead to life, Christ Jesus the Lord, who hast freed us through baptism from the slavery of death, completely deliver also this woman from the error, the enemy; make her alive in Thy life, and perfect her in Thy perfection.” (“The Acts of Philip,” Author unknown, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 498)

    THEODOTUS “Now, regeneration is by water and spirit, as was all creation: ‘For the Spirit of God moved on the deep.’ And for this reason the Savior was baptized, though not Himself needing to be so, in order that He might consecrate the whole water for those who were being regenerated. Thus it is not the body only, but the soul, that we cleanse.” (“Excerpts of Theodotus,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 44)

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    How many more quotes do I need Troy Day? Do your homework…hahaha

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    It doesn’t matter… lol

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Randal W Deese You simply got no case here

    On your historical argument: CATHARS, ALBIGENSIANS BOGOMILS paulinians and so on openly opposed the sacraments of the Orthodox church and called them pagan – pagan washings after A.D. 100 influenced most of eastern orthodox sacramentalism

    Now back to the Bible – go read the whole discussion on the Greek in the words of Jesus: Today you will be with me in Paradise and come back if you have any question http://probible.net/luke-2343/

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    This doesn’t really prove your case… there have always been some that have rebelled against truth

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Give us the Greek words pls Christopher Noel Boggess Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869,under Luke 23:43.kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met’ emou ese en toparad[eiso]. (“And immediately he said to me: ‘Most truly today I tell you,You will be with me in Paradise.’”)

    “And he said to him: ‘Today I tell you the truth,that I should have you in Paradise with me.’”)–Gospel of Nicodemus (=Actsof Pilate)

    Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfthcentury C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 as”Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

    Kenneth L. Harrell I think the above answers your quesiton: Why can’t people just take God at his word and obey

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    David Chambers

    This has been fun. Thank you both for the discussion.

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    oh David we are just starting 🙂 here’s the Greek http://probible.net/luke-2343/

  • Lets not lisyen to what man says lets listen to jesus
    Mark 1616

  • He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

  • Any questions

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Just one – is this part of Mark in the oldest manuscripts?
    Answer – NO; added later by the Orthodox church 🙂

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    Troy Day. Sometimes you are just silly… really silly

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Randal W Deese please take your time and read carefully in full; no point to comment before reading the actual Greek http://probible.net/luke-2343/

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    I don’t need to. It does not apply to this thread…

  • One must be born again to enter heaven

    • Reply March 23, 2018

      Paul L. King

      You are misquoting the Scripture–the use of a logical fallacy. To be accurate, Jesus said you must be born again to SEE the kingdom of heaven, not enter. Our eyes are opened to see the kingdom when we are born again. We enter the deeper kingdom life after regeneration when we are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit.

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Well if you think the words of Jesus on salvation and going to heaven do not apply to the question Is water baptism necessary to be saved? then there is very little to talk about Randal W Deese

  • Jesus preached this right after he was baptised

  • Here is your sign guys duh

  • Dont be like the hipocrites searching the scriptures for a way around baptism

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess was the thief on the cross born again?

  • Died under the old law

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      David Chambers

      The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
      Luke 16:16

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess was the thief on the cross baptized in water?

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    The thief may have been baptized in water. We don’t know absolutely

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      that’s just as silly as saying the thief could have been a member of the local Orthodox church

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      It is exegetically accurate

    • Reply March 23, 2018

      Paul L. King

      Randall’s argument is a logical fallacy–an argument from silence, not exegetically accurate

  • And you guys call yourself pentacostals

  • Shame on you
    Acts 2 38

  • Mark 16 16

  • Romans 6

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    David Chambers

    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
    Luke 16:16

  • I got plenty of scripture if we want to be ignorant

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    you aint got no scripture about the thief on the cross?

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    Thief not a real issue under new covenant…

  • Nevermind im commanded to let the ignorant be ignorant and avoid contention have a great day guys

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Thief went to Paradise. Many baptist and orthodox have not

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    Sounds like humanism to me

  • Troy Day did the thief die after jesus raised from the grave the third day

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess What did Jesus say to the thief?

  • hu·man·ism
    [ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnizəm]
    NOUN
    an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    I am talking about Troy’s comment directly above mine… keep up with the conversation

  • I do not see how that applies here

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    So you are making a humanistic judgment?

  • O that nice and rude Randal W Deese

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    You take things way to serious… lol

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Why you attack the person and not the issue?

  • I have given scripture if you will not exept that thats not my prob

  • Troy Day so me were the sinner prayer saves you

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    I havent disagreed with you yet Christopher Noel Boggess

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Randal W Deese I have no problem putting you in the corner with your own theology but whats the point? Arent we all here to examine the Bible together? Why dont you discuss the issue instead of always resorting to ad hominem attacks?

  • Sorry Randal W Deese its just contentious here right now

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Just FYI Christopher Noel Boggess Randal W Deese is defending infant baptist. Is that what you believe too?

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    You actually use ad hom all the time… you just do it a little more subtly…I could give you a list in a few days…

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Randal W Deese We see that our Lord Jesus Christ was baptized by St. John the Baptist …But what about St. Mary the Virgin ?

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Randal W Deese

    It would be long… you are very good at making it seem like you are not doing ad hom… but, some of us have been around the theological block, if you will… why is it good for you? I do it once in a while in jest, but you do it very often…

  • You have to choose to serve god and choice to be burried with christ

  • Reply March 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Why Randal W Deese 🙂 because that would make her a common sinner? Just tell us Was Mary the mother of Jesus baptized in water?

  • Yes

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      you believe in infant baptism like Randal W Deese ? I am surprised to hear that

    • No

    • I dont believe baptizing any under 15

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Yes. It is more Scriptural than dedication will ever be…

    • Can you show me scripture on infant baptizm so i can believe

    • Randal W Deese

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39: NIV, emphasis added)

      The phrase “you and your children” implies both the adult listeners and their offspring. The Greek word for “offspring” (teknos) can include young children as well as those grownup.

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      … that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family. (Acts 16:33-34; NIV, emphasis added)

      The phrase “his whole family” can be read to include little children and infants. This emphasis on the family unit parallels the first Passover when the Israelites gathered in a home to celebrate a Passover meal (Exodus 12). The blood of the sacrificed lamb was smeared over the door of the house, not on individuals. This contrasts with the modern mindset that elevates the individual over the family, and which emphasizes individualized faith over believing together with others.

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Summary

      Yes, it is. While there is no description of an individual infant being baptized, the Bible describes five separate household baptisms:
      • The Household of Cornelius, Acts 11:13–14: “Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.”
      • The Household of Lydia, Acts 16:15: “And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.’ So she persuaded us.”
      • The Philippian Jailor’s Household, Acts 16:33: “And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”
      • The Household of Crispus, Acts 18:8: “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.”
      • The Household of Stephanas, 1 Corinthians 1:16: “Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.”
      Some have argued that while the Bible may say ‘household’ or ‘family’ this does not have to include children. Maybe those households did not include children. While this may be the case, it is hard to imagine that at least one of these households did not include children. And given the fact that we have five explicit references to a whole household being baptized, we have to assume that many, many more such households were baptized. Surely some of them included children.
      The word ‘household’ for any Israelite of the day included everybody in the household, children included. We must remember that a household always included children throughout the Scriptures. Every time God established or spoke about His covenant with the House of Israel, it included the whole of Israel: men, women, and children. Noah’s whole ‘household’ was taken into the ark with him (Genesis 7:1); Abraham had his whole household circumcised (Genesis 17:23), and specifically his son Isaac when he was eight days old (Genesis 21:4); the whole household of every family was taken out of Egypt, and God’s institution of the Passover specifically included the children (Exodus 12:24–28). If the Apostles had taught that children were to be excluded from full inclusion in the covenant, such an innovation would not have fit the prophetic covenants which preceded the fulfilled covenant enacted through Christ.
      The pattern of the Old Testament covenants formed the framework for the apostolic understanding of the true covenant of Christ, and those covenants included children. They were covenants which were made with a nation, in which every household participated. This is what is expressed in the household baptisms of the New Testament. Even when an individual was baptized, this baptism placed him in a larger body. Individual adult baptisms occurred, but there were no individual covenants.
      The Bible teaches us that under the Old Covenant, every male child was circumcised on the eighth day after birth. With his circumcision, the child became a full and complete member of the covenant and could eat of the Passover sacrifice. Baptism in Christ absorbed and fulfilled this rite, as it absorbed all initiation and cleansing rites of the day. Circumcision, we know from the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15:5; Acts 21:21), was no longer necessary for the Gentile convert or his children. Nowhere in the Bible is it hinted that while absorbing the rite of circumcision, baptism would suddenly and without precedent exclude children. Jesus did not have a problem with children gaining full inclusion to the covenant: He Himself was circumcised as an infant (Luke 2:21), like John the Forerunner (Luke 1:59).
      Here we need to introduce a statement by Jesus Himself on the subject of children and faith. In Luke 18, some children are brought to Him to receive a blessing. His disciples try to interfere. But Jesus immediately rebukes them, saying, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:16). A sentimental reading of this passage tells us that Jesus loves children, and that we should not stop them from trying to ask questions about Him or wanting to pray to Him, or tell them that they are too young to get to know Him. While this is true, no one the Lord is talking to thought differently. These were people, we have to remember, who circumcised their children, included them in the Passover rituals and taught them from a young age about God, Israel and the Prophetic writings. The Jews were fanatical, by our modern standards, in their desire to raise their children in the faith. This is not a Hallmark moment in the Gospels.
      Jesus is in fact including children in His Kingdom. And His inclusion of children in the Kingdom includes them in the covenant He establishes in His Name. There is no partial involvement in the Kingdom of Heaven, just as there is no partial inclusion in the covenant. We are either members or not. Jesus is saying that children are in, and there is to be no argument about it. There is absolutely no room here to make an argument that children must wait until some magical age before they too can be included with full rights into the Church and at the altar table.
      Jesus was once an infant Himself. And Jesus was never separate from God, even in His mother’s womb. The heretical Nestorians claimed that Jesus’ divinity only descended upon Him at baptism. But the Orthodox Church has always declared that He united God and man from the moment of His conception, and the Orthodox believe that His Kingdom belongs to children. Not only because the covenant is with the whole household; not only because a distinction of age was never introduced into the practice of baptism; not only because such a distinction would not have matched the Old Testament covenants which served as the prophetic model for the New Covenant; but because Christ Himself became incarnate as an infant child. In Him all ages, like all humanity, are sewn into the perfect union expressed in the eucharistic supper of the New Israel, which we join only through baptism. Christ makes both childhood and adulthood fully capable of expressing and participating in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    • I dont need your interpentation i just know were in the bible they baptized babies Randal W Deese

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Christopher Noel Boggess

      Do the research… households ALWAYS had one or more babies in them… the rest is Church history!

    • So were babies submerged in water

    • And what sins did they repent from

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Christopher Noel Boggess I teach infants are innocent

    • So why they need to be baptized

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Christopher Noel Boggess They enter into the body of christ

    • But they dont need to they are perfect without sin

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Christopher Noel Boggess I didn’t say perfect… only innocent

    • I say perfect

    • Without sin

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      No one is born perfect according to Scripture, but innocent is quite different

    • Show me were we are born in sin

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      I didn’t say we are born in sin

    • Then babies have no sin

    • Reply March 20, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Since infants are without moral knowledge, without moral obligation, and without moral choices, this adequately explains why the Bible explicitly describes infants as morally “innocent” (2 Kin. 21:16; 24:4; Jer. 13:26-27; Ps. 106:37-38; Matt. 18:3). When Bible talks about the shedding of “innocent blood” (2 Kin. 21:16), the context of this passage is child sacrifices. It says that King Manasseh “made his son pass through the fire” (2 Kin. 21:16). That is, he sacrificed his innocent child upon the altar of a false god. God had commanded, “thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire of Molech” (Lev. 18:21).

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Paul Hughes

    The thief on the cross was not baptized — but there were extenuating circumstances.

    You don’t get baptized to get saved, you get baptized because you are saved — as a confession of faith & initiation into new life.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Popular doctrine.. no Scripture anywhere teaches one gets baptized “because you are saved”. Give the direct quote please. Thanks

    • Reply March 24, 2018

      Paul Hughes

      Baptismal regeneration is distinctly non-Pentecostal, We are saved by faith alone.

      The baptismal regeneration error comes from misunderstandings and assumptions from a few prooftexts. Rituals are what Sacramentalists believe, not Pentecostals. We are not saved by taking sacraments, either. That idea is also based on spurrious prooftexting.

      “Repent and be baptized” actually implies that the person who repents will go on and demonstrate that repentance by going through the demonstration of cleansing which is water baptism.

      A parallel is Paul’s explanation, esp. in Romans, that Abraham was saved by faith, not by circumcision. Circumcision was the demonstration of commitment. Abraham was saved by faith in what was yet to come. Paul makes it clear that although being circumcized was a vital part of Jewish identity, it was not salvific.

      Indeed, like circumcision, water baptism is worthless apart from faith, an empty ritual.

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Bill Terrell

    You have to be saved to be baptized,confess with your mouth believe in your heart,then we are baptized in the death burial and resurrection in the name of Jesus,but I find that people will strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Scripture please

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Romans 10:9 esv
      because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Matt 23:25
      You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Colossians 2:12
      having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from th

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Bill Terrell

      You didn’t give a passage that teaches this:

      “You have to be saved to be baptized”

      If this is true, a passage needs to clearly teach this sentence. Don’t change the subject. We are not discussing where confession fits in..

      Now, the Colossians passage actually is teaching Baptismal regeneration, not your view.

      So, I’m waiting for clear passages that teach what you proclaimed.

      Thanks

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Anyone can be baptized saved or not but it’s a confession for saved people,and there’s no scripture that says your not saved till your baptized …Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
      Matt 12:1-4
      1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      1. Confession is PART of the process, but it is NOT THE process.
      2. There is no Scripture that says that “You have to be saved to be baptized”
      3. There are clear passages that include baptism in the process of salvation: Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21 (By the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established)
      4. The Sabbath has nothing to do with this issue.
      5. It is important to teach the entire truth about salvation. We can never use a single verse to teach an entire truth. Scripture MUST interpret Scripture!

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      No sir there’s nothing that’s says you have to be saved to be baptized and there’s nothing that says you have to be baptized to be saved my point exactly.
      2)reason why I put the scripture in about the sabbath was,Jesus used the revelation of one scripture to tear down the Pharisees theology on the sabbath.
      3)there are many scripture to point to our salvation is in the blood,belief and faith,before baptism even comes in the picture…I haven’t the time right now to go in depth but we can agree to disagree,?love ya my brother!

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Bill Terrell 1. You cannot ignore the CLEAR passages that I gave you and still come up with your personal view.
      2. It isn’t Pharisaical to teach straight and clear Scripture. It is more Pharisaical by adding or subtracting from clear Scripture. That was part of their problem.
      3. Your third point should be included in the salvific process, but without baptism, they are incomplete. We need to teach the Whole Counsel of God – not merely cherry pick the passages we like while ignoring the rest.

      I wish you did have time to go in-depth, because have baked theological doctrines have caused much pain in the church today.

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess This turned to an interested discussion but just to be fair theres no verse in the Bible to legitimize the 15 years age either right?

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      David Chambers

      The heresy abounds in this thread, lol.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      What do you mean?

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      David Chambers

      People seem to believe that you can’t be saved unless you’re baptized

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      David Chambers What you call heresy has been taught since Christ and the Apostles. It wasn’t until the Reformation that it became POPULAR to reject the historical true doctrine. If it is heresy – you just condemned every Christian until the Reformation to hell? Really? Think deeper

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Bill Terrell

    I got saved 23yrs ago in a 6 by 9 cell when the blood of Jesus hit my life I felt the weight of sin leave and the joy of salvation hit me I knew I was a new creation I wasn’t baptized till months later but I knew I was saved before I even entered the water,we are saved by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      That is the first step. It is like all the people of Israel who had blood on their doorposts were saved from the death angel, but they were not totally saved until they went through the red sea which is a type of baptism. Both are needed… If they would not have went through the red sea, they would have been slaughtered – even after being saved from the death angel.

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Bill Stockham

    “…this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” (1 Peter 3:21)

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Bill Stockham

    For all these very heated discussions with hateful comments…”My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:12-13) “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:7-8) “Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.” (1 John 4:20)

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Hey. I have a question for you. Did Jesus love the Pharisees?

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      If you answer yes, please explain Matthew 23 and other similar remarks in light of your comments.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Did Apostle Paul love all those he ministered to?

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Please explain the comments of Paul about wishing some Judaizers be castrated – which is really clear in the Greek text.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Stockham

      Not only did he love them but He laid down His life for them…””Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.” (Matthew 23:37-38)

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      John 3:16
      “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Bill Terrell

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Ok…Let us go deeper then…

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      I didn’t have to go deeper to get saved I just called on the name of Jesus!!!can I get a Amen

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Ephesians 2:8 reads “through faith” (διὰ πίστεως), but not saved “through the faith” (διὰ τῆς πίστεως). Of course, the two phrases are almost exactly the same, but the question is: does Ephesians 2:8 say “through faith” or “through the faith”?

      The answer is that it’s a manuscript variant. (For those who don’t know what biblical manuscript variants are, see the video: Is the King James Bible Infallible? A link to the video is below.) Some Greek manuscripts have the definite article τῆς (the feminine singular genitive form of the word ‘the’), while some don’t. The majority of the manuscripts do include τῆς in Ephesians 2:8, as reflected by its inclusion in the Byzantine Majority Text. For Ephesians 2:8, the Majority Text reads:

      “τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον.”

      The reading found in the greatest number of New Testament manuscripts is not always the original reading. However, in this case we believe that the majority reading (διὰ τῆς πίστεως) is the original one. On this point the comments of a Protestant on the manuscript evidence are interesting. He states: “Since the presence of τῆς is supported by the majority of manuscripts as well as one important uncial in the Alexandrian family (and is therefore of great antiquity), it can be concluded from the external evidence that the article is original.” (Gregory P. Sapaugh, Is Faith a Gift? A Study of Ephesians 2:8, A Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Spring 1994—Volume 7:12)

      THE faith…. just like the rest of the New Testament:

      THE FAITH
      The System Of Doctrine And Morality Peculiar To Christianity:
      1. Statements encouraging us to properly maintain the system of faith
      a. Jude 3 contend earnestly for the faith
      b. Gal 1:23 preaching the faith he once tried to destroy
      c. Eph 4:5 only one faith
      d. Eph 4:23 until we all attain to the unity of the faith
      a. Acts 14:22 encouraging them to continue in the faith
      f. Acts 16:5 strengthen in the faith
      g. 2 Cor 13:5 test yourselves to see if you are in the faith
      h. 1 Cor 16:13 stand firm in the faith
      i. 2 Ti 4:7 1 have kept the faith
      1. 1 Tit 1:13 reprove then that they may be sound in the faith
      k. 1 Ti 4:1 in later times some will fall away from the faith
      1. 1 Ti 4:6 nourished on the words of the faith and sound doctrine
      m. 1 Ti 6:10 wandered away from the faith
      n. 1 Ti 6:2021 Gone astray from the faith
      2. Statements of general interest:
      a. Gal 3:23 before the faith came we were under the law
      b. Gal 6:10 especially the household of the faith
      c. Acts 6:7 obedient to the faith
      d. Rom 10:8 word of faith we preach
      a. Lk 18:8 will Jesus find the faith upon the earth when He returns

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      It is talking about ALL THE FAITH concerning what the Bible says about salvation…not ONLY faith…. This is why we must study Scripture IN-Depth.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      As a boy all I knew he died for me and I called on that name that’s above every name!!!Jesus!

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Bill Terrell Romans 10:13 is ONE verse. It does not tell the entire truth. It is only a PART…. one verse out of context is a pretext for a prooftext.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      John 11:25
      Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he li

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      John 14:6
      Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Randal W Deese im sorry sir I see it as truth.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      You only see PART of the truth. I gave you passages you conveniently ignored. I accept all your passages, but say they are incomplete. I believe in the Whole Counsel of God on the topic.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Bill Terrell

      Randal W Deese God bless you brother I have enjoyed our discussion!!!love ya.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Bill Terrell Blessings… Btw, I used to teach what you presented. Have a great day.

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    David Chambers In Pentecostalism people who seem to believe that you can’t be saved unless you’re baptized come mainly from Oneness churches and insist not only water baptism but specifically water baptism in the name of Jesus ONLY

    In Catholicism/Orthodoxy, water baptism is not only salvific act but serves as
    1. justification from old sinful nature
    2. casting all demons out of the person
    3. baptism with the Holy Spirit (not really but similar)
    4. acceptance of church membership
    5. indulgence like assurance for going to heaven (it’s a paid service)

    Hardly any one of the 1 billion strong global Pentecostal movement believes water baptism is all that

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      It is still the historic and orthodox faith – no matter if anyone disagrees with it, it is correct

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      True believers do not follow the crowd, but truth

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      David Chambers To put it plainly what Randal W Deese teaches is not a Pentecostal teaching

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Troy Day I am Pentecostal by definition… so, you are incorrect. There are Pentecostals who teach this doctrine.

      Just like most Pentecostals do not teach in Entire Sanctification. This does not mean they are not Pentecostal.

      Pentecostalism isn’t HOW YOU define it. It has official defintions.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      In Catholicism/Orthodoxy, water baptism is not only salvific act but serves as
      1. justification from old sinful nature
      2. casting all demons out of the person
      3. baptism with the Holy Spirit (not really but similar)
      4. acceptance of church membership
      5. indulgence like assurance for going to heaven (it’s a paid service)

      Hardly any one of the 1 billion strong global Pentecostal movement believes water baptism is all that

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Troy Day You are mixing up Orthodox and Catholic big time.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Not really. They are being mixed on their own to begin with. One claims it is more Catholic universal than the other, while the other claims to have more Orthodox teaching than Orthodoxy itself. Bottom line no Pentecostal believes that water baptism is what Catholics and Orthodox use it for – like church membership and all

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Troy Day

      Actually, Orthodox-Pentecostalism does… Hence, you are Incorrect

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Not really the point here. We’ve long determined in Pentecostalism that our theology would be based on the Bible to reject and renounce all man made teachings, creeds and confessions.

      What you have offered during your stay in our group is nothing more than post medieval liturgicalism and semi Orthodox sacramentalism that at the end no one in Pentecostalism really believes.

      Our historic stance has been Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, and your attempt to bound Pentecostal theology in creedal sacraments or liturgical confessions is simply not well taken. At the end what you are saying has little to do with the Bible and overall Pentecostal Theology…

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Randal W Deese

      Troy Day

      Not according to dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic…

      There is only ONE consistent doctrine that ALL Pentecostals agree on – When one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit the initial evidence is speaking in tongues.

      Prove that all Pentecostal groups hold to what you say… This will be fun… Because I already know the outcome.

    • Reply March 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Randal W Pentecostals do not believe what you believe Pentecostals believe. Actually, we as a movement are getting pretty tired of old fallen religions coming and telling us how we should believe and practice our own Pentecostal faith. Many dead religions love to jump on the the Pentecostal bandwagon to save their numbers…

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ?

  • Reply March 21, 2018

    Anthony McCabe

    It is the Blood and Salvation of Christ (Yeshua) that Saves
    Shalom and Blessings to all

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Bill Terrell has made a GREAT point
    IF
    God has no problem baptizing someone with the Holy Spirit without them being water baptized
    THEN
    God has no problem saving someone without them being water baptized

    Christopher Noel Boggess is it possible your insisting on water baptism for salvation be a residue of previous involvement with oneness ?

  • Man has to be born of water and spirit or he can not enter into the kindom of god

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess I have to agree with what Dr. Paul L. King wrote earlier today in the group. Here it is again

    The question is confused by a misunderstanding of the meaning of “salvation.” As popularly used, it means conversion or regeneration or getting to heaven. However, biblically, salvation is much more than fire insurance, though it begins there. When someone asks me, “Are you saved?” I say yes I am and no I am not. In graduate school I did a 50 page research study on Hebrew and Greek words for salvation in the Old and New Testaments. A study of the words for “save” in Hebrew (“yasha” and its cognates) and in Greek (“sozo” and its cognates) reveals at least 8 nuances of meaning for the terms–save from hell, save from sin, gain victory (David won a victory in battle=David won a salvation), healing, wholeness, security, safety, well-being, deliver, and more. Further, salvation is used of past, present, and future–I have been saved; I am being saved; I will be saved. My spirit was saved when I was born again; my soul (mind, will, emotions, attitude, personality–all that is within me–Psalm 103:1) is in the process of being saved. My mind is being renewed, my will is being conformed to Christ, my attitudes and character and personality are being transformed, my emotions are being healed, etc. I will be saved (completely redeemed, delivered, healed, etc.), at the 2nd coming of Christ. Applying this to the verse in question, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved” is baptismal salvation, but not baptismal regeneration. As some one pointed out, Jesus does not say that the person who has not been baptized is damned. Along with 1 Peter 3:21, “Baptism now saves,” this is referring to ongoing post-conversion salvation of the soul, not salvation as regeneration or conversion. Baptism is necessary, as it was for Jesus, “to fulfill all righteousness,” to grow in obedience to maturity in our faith, not to get to heaven. We “receive the word implanted which is able to save our soul” (James 1:21). Early Church Father Cyprian taught according to John 3:3-8 the distinction between being born again (converted), born of water (post-conversion water baptism), and born of the Spirit (subsequent baptism with the Spirit). Peter did not say that the Caesareans who were converted, filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, that they were required to be baptized to be converted, but rather because they were converted and filled with the Spirit they should not be refused baptism. (Acts 10) Paul did not tell the Ephesians that they were not converted because they had John’s baptism, not Jesus’ baptism, but it was another step in their growth. Do we need to be baptized–yes. Do we need to be baptized to go to heaven–no.

  • Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? note note

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Christopher Noel Boggess would it be fair to say that your attention to water baptism is left over previous involvement with oneness ?

  • If thats not being born again i dont know what is
    We die we crucify our flesh we are burried in christ
    Washed of our sins
    Born of the spirit raised in newness of life

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    But many have gone to heaven without water baptism

  • Nope its based on scripture i spent two months in oneness group if you dont believe baptism saves you you are not penticostal act 2 38

    • Reply March 22, 2018

      David Chambers

      Hey man, it’s just the Blood. Only the Blood that saves us. Baptism is just a public expression of your new life in Christ. Nothing we do saves us. Even the faith we have in the grace of God is itself a gift from God. Our works are as filthy rags to a Holy God. The Oneness group is steering you in the wrong direction, brother. Wake up and smell the grace!

    • Do you got scripture proving that

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    We are saved by faith alone. Not faith and baptismal works. Baptism doesn’t accomplish or seal your salvation; it’s a public declaration of the work the Lord has already accomplished within. So the whole premise of baptismal regeneration defies the meaning and purpose of baptism. Not only that, the immediate context of Peter’s exhortation eliminates the possibility of anyone successfully using Acts 2:38 as an argument for baptismal regeneration.

    • Reply March 24, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Why would baptism be a “work” an more thana confesson would? Where does the Bible say anything about baptism being a public declaration? Cyril of Jerusalem used to baptize people naked.

    • Reply March 24, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      What does any of this has to do with the discussion?

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Grover Katzmarek Sr

    To the contrary

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2:38 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ? http://probible.net/acts-238/

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Grover Katzmarek Sr

    After work ill post some more. Break time is about up

  • Reply March 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

  • Reply March 23, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Anthony McCabe Grover Katzmarek Sr Paul L. King The relevant words in the passage cited from Acts 2:38 on baptism are BAPTISQHTW hEKASTOS hUMWNOne of the notions I’ve attempted to inject into the discussion of the QH”passive” forms is that (even for active verbs such as BAPTIZW) we shouldunderstand those -QH- aorists and futures as MIDDLE-PASSIVE rather thanjust passive. The above 3rd-person imperative could be conveyed simply as”each of you should be baptized” and you could call it truly passive, butif you understand it as “each of you should get baptized” you really dohave a verb suggesting that, although the ritual of baptism may beperformed by another, it is the will and determination of the personundergoing baptism that is at least as important as the ritual performed bythe agent. The MIDDLE force of these -QH- forms finds pretty satisfactoryexpression in the English of our period by using “get” as an auxiliary andthe English passive participle as the complement of a periphrasticconstruction.

  • Troy day do you think god inteaded it to be that complicated were only very intelligent ppl would understand or simple were everyone could understand

  • Reply March 23, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    The Greek is pretty clear. It is the translations that have made it so complicated to understand

  • Its not complicates ppl make it complicated

  • Reply March 24, 2018

    Link Hudson

    I had a friend who looked up ‘born of water and of the Spirit’ in so called ‘church father’s’ writings. The 18 references that explained it took born of water to refer to water baptism.

  • Reply March 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    And not just baptism Link but actually washing with water. Many of those church fathers practiced sprinkling water and so on traditional stuff We already discussed this with the orthodox brother to some extent The Greek as we expressly shown here means this
    repent for your sins
    and as a result of your repentance be baptized – to put it simply

    Here is the Greek discussion of acts 2:38 in full length http://probible.net/acts-238/

  • Reply March 25, 2018

    James Armstrong

    Personally, I feel it’s the blood of Christ that covers our sins, but, the water of baptism is what causes them to be forgotten. Forgiveness is wonderful but the memory of being wrong can be a stumbling block. God can save whosoever he pleases, but my humble opinion is that baptism is a necessity.

  • Reply March 25, 2018

    Paul L. King

    Paul’s image of baptism in Romans 6 is burial of the old man after death of the old man. The old man is dead through faith in Christ and the new man is alive regardless of whether or not the old man has been buried. But the old man needs to be buried in baptism so as not to corrupt the new man. Paul is alluding to one of the old Graeco-Roman practices of punishing a murderer by strapping the body of the victim to the back of the murderer. Eventually, the rotting corpse of the victim will kill the murderer. Paul is alluding to the need for baptism to bury the old man and not leave him to cause decay to the new. Grossly graphic, but apt.

  • Reply March 25, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Great point Paul L. King

  • Reply May 20, 2018

    Md Sanders

    The man the cross was not baptized therefore no is it ok yes it is a outward expression of your love of God in old testament it was known as the washing away of sin when dunked the old man dies when brought up the new man lives, the blood of Jesus washes away our sins the same way he became or baptizim our saving grace our holy of holys our everything he fulfilled on the cross at Calvary

  • Reply May 20, 2018

    C.b. Brumit

    No the thief at the cross didn’t

  • Reply May 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    How else they gonna wash away the old man?

  • Reply June 26, 2018

    Lyn Wilson

    I have three thoughts on this.

    1. The bible describes baptism as that which remits sin, so we must do it. It was a common and expected practice. Jesus ordered it. The apostles thought it was important, so we should.

    2. Clearly some people who believe on the Lord cannot be baptized, like the thief, or someone in a foreign prison where the facilities do not exist. Would God send a professing Christian to hell for not having the facilities available to him?

    3. Perhaps baptism is a metaphor for confession of faith, and it is the confession of faith, not the water, that is important to God.

  • Reply November 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Here’s a good starting post for you John David Barton

  • Reply November 20, 2018

    Ray E Horton

    No! By faith alone. No works necessary for salvation, including water baptism.

  • Reply November 20, 2018

    Link Hudson

    I think we should baptize people who receive the gospel message, and encourage them to be baptized for the remission of sin. We should follow the example of apostles like Peter and Paul and baptize these people instead of just being comfortable with people being saved and go for years and years– or never– without ever getting baptized.

    I beleive we should take an ‘integrated’ approach to New Testament teaching on salvation instead of just standing on one verse in one passage. Paul taught being buried and raised in baptism.

    • Reply November 20, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      Yes, we should be obedient to scripture. While it is not necessary for salvation, water baptism is a key way of attesting to our salvation, having died to the old man and arisen to new life.

    • Reply November 20, 2018

      RichardAnna Boyce

      Agreed water baptism is not a condition of saving faith in Jesus as Savior. But is compulsory in Lordship Sanctification to earn rewards in heaven but only Holy Spirit can convict Jesus is Lord to a believer.

  • Reply November 20, 2018

    Anna Zambelli

    Acts 2:38

  • Reply November 20, 2018

    John David Barton

    Romans 6:3 if you are baptised unto Jesus Christ you are baptised unto his death. If not you will not be glorified with him.

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    So can one be saved without being baptized first?

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Anna Zambelli

      Troy Day Acts chapter 2 verse 21

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      says what?

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Anna Zambelli

      Troy Day and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

      Before this peter is talking about the end times

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      So saved without baptism is OK then?

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Anna Zambelli

      Troy Day You have to remember we’re talking in the context of the end times . And I think we’re in the end times so there you have it

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Anna Zambelli

      In any other conext in the New Testament it’s repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus. But in a context of prophecy about the end times it changes

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      boy oh boy

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day hey I’m from Tennessee too. Knoxville. A lot of smart people out there. You really have two doctorates degrees! Wow that’s amazing! I wish i could go to school. I’m pretty poor. But i have a concordance and kjv and Jesus and my wife and baby Jadon. Your probably about to wipe the floor with me I’ve only been study the Greek and Hebrew for about four weeks.

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day but honestly it’s all about learning. If i can be proven wrong I’ll repent and go back to what i use to believe. God bless everyone here on this page and i hope i learn a lot from you. Amen

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Link Hudson

    Is confessing Jesus as Lord a work? If not why would being baptized be a work?

    I believe there is a real danger to reactionary theology, staking out a position in opposition to another view like tgat of the congregations that go by ‘Church of Christ’ or Oneness Pentecostals, or the RCC.

    I heard a Pentecostal preacher asserting that communion in the US was ‘just a symbol’. That irked me. If the bread is fellowship with the body of Christ it is more than a symbol.

    On baptism, we should embrace Peer’s teaching that ‘baptism doth now save you’ and of baptism for the remission of sins. We should embrace Paul’s teaching of being buried with Christ and raised with Christ in baptism.

    If Jesus wanted those who believed among the nations to be baptized how can it be a nonessential?

    We should follow apostolic example. If we would preach Jesus crucified, that He died for our sins, that he rose and call those who believed to be baptized rather than using our own recent methods.

    If Peter called people to be baptized why should we call them to repeat a prayer–sometimes after not even preaching the cross and/or the resurrection. If we would follow apostolic example whether faith without baptism saves would be more of a theoretical argument.

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Clint Young

      Link Hudson communion is a memorial…Jesus said do this in remembrance of Me…everytime we partake of communion we are remembering what He done for us at Calvary…it’s similar to the animal sacrifices being reinstated throughout the Kingdom Age…although (Heb.) tells us there is never again any need for another sacrifice, they will be performed by priests for memorial purposes only in the Kingdom Age…in fact there should never be a day go by that we not remember what Jesus Christ has performed for each of us…Oh what a Saviour.

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      communion is looking ahead eschatologically

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Jude and/or II Peter mention spots and blemishes on the love feasts. Sacrifices were to be without spot or blemish.

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      just like the Bride of Christ for the pre-Trib rapture

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day Do you disagree with Dake? Didn’t you post a video of his where argued that the city and the church was not the bride of Christ? (I suppose he dismissed the idea of the church being the city if it had occurred to him.)

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Link Hudson The answer to your false question is NO You are truly lost again DAKE is probably the major argumentor in proving the Bride is the City Rico Hero or A.J. Bible could post you a snap shot of his 19 proofs, was it? Ricky Grimsley often quotes this particular argument which comes straight from Dake’s notes on Rev 19-21

      So again your question is a fallacy which evades the responsibility to make a direct question but still twists the words your counter side by making such false accusation I find such approach NOT Christian and cannot approve of it I find a similar accusative approach used in the Book of Job and truly dislike it

      SO before you make a half wrong question statement AGAIN just pick up a DAKE and check your info; because most of the times when you come with such approach you are just plain wrong What a great rabbit hole you’ve offered again

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day I may have worded something ambiguously earlier. Didnt’ Dake believe that it was the city that was the bride, rather than the church?

      I wouldn’t want to misrepresent anyone, but I don’t care to read Dake’s commentary or Bible. You can answer my question if I misunderstood him. My recollection from a revent video post was that he did not accept the church as the bride because the city was the bride. Is that right, or did he just sound like that at first and make another point?

      As far as wading through Dake’s stuff to see what his view was, I don’t really care to do that. Honestly, I found his rhetorical style a bit off putting– making a really lame illogical argument and then accusing those who disagreed with him.

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Link Hudson you REALLY ought to learn some Greek brother

    says with heart BELIEVES
    only then confession does anything
    confession without faith is dead work
    same goes for the water baptism work around semi-doctrine

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Gerardo de Dominicis

    I think that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, because we are justified by grace thru faith. Being baptized is an act of obedience that follows conversion, not before conversion. Being baptized is a confession of belief, it’s an external declaration of what we believe in our heart. A real christian will want to be baptized as an act of obedience.

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    I think you maybe onto something here

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day was the thief on the cross baptised by Jesus.

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      You cannot say for sure or not because John the Baptist baptised nearly all of Judea and Jesus baptised even more than John. The thief could very well have already been baptised in Jesus name. Plus the thief could not have been saved by the “faith only” doctrine because Jesus had not yet died and rose again.

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      thief on the cross – already answered; nothing new

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day what about Romans 6:3-4. Or Jesus and Nicodemus when Jesus said in order to be born again one must be born of water and of spirit.
      John 3:1-36
      [1]There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
      [2]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
      [3]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
      [4]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
      [5]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
      [6]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
      [7]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
      [8]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
      [9]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
      [10]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
      [11]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
      [12]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
      [13]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
      [14]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
      [15]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
      [16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
      [17]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
      [18]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
      [19]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
      [20]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
      [21]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
      [22]After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
      [23]And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
      [24]For John was not yet cast into prison.
      [25]Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.
      [26]And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
      [27]John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
      [28]Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
      [29]He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
      [30]He must increase, but I must decrease.
      [31]He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
      [32]And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
      [33]He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
      [34]For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
      [35]The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
      [36]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    • Reply November 21, 2018

      John David Barton

      This passage refers to baptism. And not just any baptism, specific baptism. Water and spirit. Verse 18 specifies the singular name of a born hwios or foal child of God. 87× that word son is translated with anthropos which means man faced. The man face of God the father

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    John David Barton

    1 Peter 3:20-21
    [20]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    [21]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: In the days of Noah eight souls were saved by water. The next part starts with “antitupon” which means corresponding or like. A representation of being saved by baptism. Baptism is in the same manner as bringing forth the sacrifice for purification as a testimony of your cleansing. Even though you were clean, you were not accepted as clean until declared clean by your high priest. As Jesus is now our high priest, baptism is necessary to be accepted our declared cleansed as a testimony that our faith had saved us. Even though we were already saved by grace. Echastos or later days is the time of Jesus. Hebrews 1:2 1Peter 1:20

  • Reply November 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    I see a lot of the same “proof” Nothing really new

  • Reply November 22, 2018

    Rico Hero

    Like all Greeks born into Orthodoxy, I was baptized as a baby. Catholics and Anglicans likewise baptize (more like a sprinkle than a dip into water) babies. Therefore, if baptism in water was necessary for salvation, millions of people already lost.

  • Reply November 22, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    never knew you were Greeks born into Orthodoxy 🙂 pretty sure Link Hudson has visited your church at least once

    • Reply November 22, 2018

      Link Hudson

      I’ve never been to an Eastern Orthodox service.

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      as well as you should have

  • Reply November 23, 2018

    Noah D Williams

    Read acts 2:38 water baptism is a must

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      a must for salvation? Link Hudson

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day Well, I’d say it’s a must, and we should follow the teaching and example of the apostles. If God wants to save someone through faith who hasn’t been baptized, I will not oppose it. If He who believesth and is baptized shall be saved and He that believeth not shall be condemned, then we know what happens to him that believeth not.

  • Reply November 23, 2018

    Rico Hero

    Re: Acts 2:38

    Does Water Baptism remit sin, Noah, or is it the blood of Jesus Christ that does?

    snip
    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.( Jn1:7)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Note:[for] Greek: eis (G1519), because of remission of sins. When one repents, which is always required in Scripture before baptism, he is immediately forgiven (1Jn. 1:9; Rom. 10:9-10). Only then is one a proper candidate for water baptism which is an outward symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet. 3:21). It testifies to the world that one has already repented and been forgiven by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9 Rom. 1:16; 3:24-25; 5:1). DAKE

  • Reply November 23, 2018

    Link Hudson

    Rico Hero
    Acts 22:16
    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Was John saying to repent and be baptized for sins that had already been forgiven?

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Rico Hero

      Re: Acts 22:16
      This was after Paul was saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and healed (Acts 9:17-18). So, the baptism could not be to remit his sins, any more than in the case of Christ (Mt. 3:16), the eunuch (Acts 8:37 with 1Jn. 5:1), the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48), or anyone else (1Pet. 3:21 1Cor. 1:13-24).

      Baptism Did Not Remit Paul’s Sin
      Acts 22:12-16 is not a detailed or consecutive account of all the facts, as in Acts 9:17-18, which states: Reception of sight (Acts 9:17-18) Filling of the Spirit (Acts 9:17) Arising from prayer (Acts 9:11,18) Baptism in water (Acts 9:18)
      Paul’s own testimony elsewhere proves he was saved by faith in the blood (Rom. 3:24-25; 5:1; Eph. 1:7). He was already saved, healed, and filled with the Spirit before he was told to “arise” (Acts 22:16 with Acts 9:17-18). “Wash away thy sins” is clearly a ceremonial washing, as are all washings by man (Mt. 8:3-4 with Lev. 14-15). The Greek: apolouo (G628) is used only twice: once here of ceremonial cleansing and once in 1Cor. 6:11 where it is the same in meaning as the baptism “without hands” of Col. 2:11. No scripture says that sins are washed away by baptism other than ceremonially. Cleansing is done: by God (Ps. 51:1-13 Tit. 2:11-13) by Christ (Mt. 1:21; Rev. 1:5) by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 6:11) by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) by faith in the blood (Rom. 3:24-25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; 1Jn. 1:7; Mt. 26:28; Heb. 9:22; 1Pet. 1:18-23 Rev. 1:5) by faith without works (Rom. 2:24-29; 4:1-25; 5:1; Gal. 3:19-29) by confession of sins (1Jn. 1:9; Rom. 10:9-10 Acts 2:38; 3:19) by the Word of God (1Pet. 1:23; Jas. 1:18; Jn. 3:5; 15:3; Eph. 5:26)
      Ananias, a Jew, was well acquainted with ceremonial cleansings. He knew that washing was outward and ceremonial and did not cleanse from: Leprosy (Lev. 14:1-9; 15:1-27) Guilt (Ps. 26:6; 73:13) Sins (Isa. 1:16; Jer. 2:22) Wickedness (Jer. 4:14) Defilement (Mk. 7:1-23)
      Washings only typified cleansing by blood (Heb. 9:7-15,21-26; 10:1-23).
      Many words describing redemption are found 3,322 Times in Scripture and not once is water baptism required to make anyone phase effective. Many convincing examples of remission of sins without and before water baptism are recorded in Scripture: Christ (Mt. 3:16; Lk. 3:21) Old Testament saints (Heb. 11:1-40 Lk. 1:15,41,46,67; 2:25-38) Palsied man (Mt. 9:1-7) The publican (Lk. 18:9-14) Zacchaeus (Lk. 19:1-10) Thief on the cross (Lk. 23:43) The nobleman’s house (Jn. 4:53) The sinner woman (Lk. 7:48) Many Jews (Mt. 9:22; Mk. 5:34; 10:52; Lk. 17:19; 18:42; Jn. 7:31; 8:30-31; 11:45; 12:11,42) The eunuch (Acts 8:37 with 1Jn. 5:1; Rom. 10:9-10 Eph. 2:8-9) The lame man (Acts 3:16; 4:12) Paul (Acts 9:18-19) Cornelius and house (Acts 10:44-48; 11:14-18; 15:7-11) Multitudes both healed and saved (Acts 5:15-16 Jas. 5:14-15 Mt. 13:15)
      Both Peter and John state baptism to be a “figure” and “witness” of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet. 3:21; 1Jn. 5:6-10). Peter plainly says it does not save to the point of putting away the filth of the flesh (1Pet. 3:21; Gal. 5:19-21). Paul definitely says sins are put off by circumcision without hands (Col. 2:11-13). This is the baptism of Rom. 6:1-8 1Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:29; Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12. Since water baptism is not the real, literal, physical death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, then it has to be figurative of it (1Pet. 3:21; 1Jn. 5:6-10). Washing of sins by baptism is ceremonial and symbolic, like the ceremony of the leper after he was cleansed (Mt. 8:3-4 with Lev. 14:1-9; 15:1-27) and like the garments washed in the blood (Rev. 7:13-14). Paul did not teach baptismal regeneration (1Cor. 1:13-24; 15:1-5 Rom. 1:16; 10:9-10 Eph. 2:8-9). Jesus did not teach baptism as a means of salvation. He forgave multitudes without it (see point 8, above). Not one time did He baptize anyone (Jn. 4:2). He once mentioned faith and then baptism (Mk. 16:16). Texts used to teach remission of sins by baptism (Mt. 3:6-8,11 Mk. 1:4-5 Lk. 3:3,8-16 Acts 2:38; Mk. 16:16) do not say sins are remitted by it, but “for” or because of repentance (see note, Mt. 3:16). Repentance and faith always precede baptism in these passages. See Mt. 28:19; Acts 2:38,41; 8:12,37; 10:44-48; 18:8; 19:4.
      c [calling on the name of the Lord] This is what saves (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:9-10 1Jn. 1:9; Lk. 13:3). Then one is ready for baptism, as Paul was after he was saved, healed, and filled with the Spirit (Acts 9:17-18).Dake

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Rico Hero,
      You wrote,
      “This was after Paul was saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and healed (Acts 9:17-18). ”

      The verse you referred to here doesn’t say that.

      7 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

      18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

      Somewhere in the middle of these verses, probably right there at the end of verse 17 or in the middle of it, as we see in chapter 22, Ananias told him to be baptized and wash away his sins, calling upon the name of the Lord.

      In fact, if you assume his sins were forgiven before he was baptized, in a discussion like this,that’s called begging the question.

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Rico Hero

      Assume? Obviously you did not read the post. Have a nice day Link Hudson

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      Rico Hero Brother, you wrote here an excellent and thorough explanation of why water baptism is not a means of salvation. May I copy this and quite it when the subject comes up occasionally?

    • Reply November 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Naaah Link Hudson this is very poor Baptist theology

  • Reply November 25, 2018

    John David Barton

    Please read these scriptures and know the truth!

  • Reply November 25, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    John David Barton are you trying to prove baptism or baptism in the name of Jesus or baptism in the name of Jesus ONLY or what? Link Hudson as a good baptist has already been baptized (I think)

  • Reply November 25, 2018

    John David Barton

    Water baptism is necessary for receiving unction of the holy spirit

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Link Hudson

      What about Cornelius.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      Link Hudson Cornelius received the spirit before he even heard the good news according to scripture. So then i ask since he was saved without faith is this a unique situation being as he was the first gentile saved, or is all of scripture wrong?

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      John David Barton Not true! Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as Peter preached the Good News.

      “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word. All the believers of the circumcision who had come with Peter were astonished, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in other tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter continued, ‘Can anyone forbid water for baptizing these, who have received the Holy Spirit as we have?'” (Acts 10:45-47).

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      Acts 10 is the typical progression: Hear the Word, be saved, receiving the Holy Spirit by faith, be filled with the gift of the Holy Spirit. And only then, after already being saved by faith and having received the Holy Spirit, are we baptised in water to affirm what has already happened.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      Ray E Horton so then of all this is true why does acts 238 directly contradict scripture?

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Link Hudson

      John David Barton I think you are reading a contradiction into that.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      John David Barton Acts 2:38 is not referring to water baptism. WE repent and are born again and our sins are forgiven. That is the Baptism into Jesus, into the Body of Christ by faith, not a reference to water baptism, as is clear from context as well.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      Link Hudson acts 10:2 states that Cornelius and all his house feared God and prayed to him always, indicating they already knew God, which is Jesus. In verse 37 Peter expands on this saying they already knew the about the baptism which John preached. Verse 44 states that as Peter spoke these words the holy spirit fell upon them. In verse 48 Peter commanded them to be baptised because he and the Jews with him were astonished that they already had the gift of the holy spirit. In other incidences the subsequent baptism would also be recorded, but not for Cornelius; because he was already baptised. Acts 11:16 confirms this as Peter remembered Jesus saying John baptizes with water, and He with the holy spirit. The most important verse is 17 where it explains the difference between believing on Jesus and receiving the gift. Peter said they received the same gift from Jesus as the disciples did in the beginning, which was baptism by Jesus. Cornelius and his house knew Jesus and were baptised by him. Otherwise they would not have known God to be able to pray to him. Like i said there are no contradictions. Praise Jesus Christ. For this is not from me but HIM.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      Link Hudson acts 238 says baptised or
      Greek: βαπτίζω
      Transliteration: baptizō
      Pronunciation: bap-tid’-zo
      Definition: From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: – baptist baptize wash.
      KJV Usage: baptize (76), wash (2x), baptist (1x), baptized (with G2258) (1x).
      Occurs: 86
      In verses: 65

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      You guys almost had me there! Indeed i was at a loss. But Jesus Christ is even smarter than us. Wow I’m learning so much tonight. Excellent spirit sharpening going on in this group. You guys are amazing. My baby’s got a lung infection so I’m gonna take off for now. Please pray for my 19 month old. We have been staying at a rescue mission in California and he caught an illness. Been giving him ibu and tylenol to keep fever down. His name is Jadon.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      John David Barton In Jesus name, we come against that infection coming against Jadon’s longs and tell it to be gone. Thank you Lord in advance for quick recovery. We see Jadon healed and whole, in Jesus name.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      John David Barton

      Ray E Horton thank you and Godbless. Sorry about the comment i deleted i have things ready in advance and i jumped the gun.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Link Hudson Matthew 8:5-9 is an unknown centurion who met Jesus in Capernaum which is about 45 miles from ceasarea. Him and his household believed and were saved. That would explain how Cornelius knew Jesus.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Baptism is a requirement. Baptism in Jesus name. I beg you all to reconsider. Look at me. I’m a nobody who has nothing, and the only difference between us is i took am extra step and was baptised in Jesus name. I believe in oneness and know it to be true. I’ve only known Jesus for three months and he’s here with me debating against you. How long have you been studying the bible. I know for a fact Troy Day has two doctorates. You aren’t opposing me or God. Your opposing your own salvation. The trinity was designed for the purpose of chi xi stigma. To place a name above all that is worshipped as God, which is Jesus. When the iron mixed with clay comes forward i beg you to balk. Catholic mixed with Muslim. When the name of Allah is placed above Jesus do not take the mark. Its a false pneuma. Look up the Aramaic for in the name of Allah and compare it to the Greek letters chi xi stigma. I love you guys i just can’t stand by any longer and watch. I have been sent to fight the beast. In Jesus name Amen.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Ray E Horton Your prayprayer was answered my baby went to sleep peacefully. Thank you faithful man of God.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      John David Barton He is faithful.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      Link Hudson

      John David Barton No, that doesn’t make any sense. They were God-fearers. God fearers typically listened outside the synagogue. They would not have thought of God as being Jesus. They had not heard the gospel yet.

      In Acts 19, Paul baptized those who had already received John’s baptism.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      John David Barton Most of us here I would suspect are Baptised, simply as a act of obedience and to affirm our faith before the world, but not for salvation which the Word is clear comes by faith. On the subject of what name to be Baptised in, I think it’s almost silly legalistic and irrelevant. God surely doesn’t care if you are Baptised in the name if Jesus, who is God, or God the Trinity.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      Link Hudson

      John David Barton

      I am wondering how you interpret the passage where Jesus

      “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”(Mark 13:32, ESV)

      Plenty of Christians (probably apostolics, too) call God Allah in different parts of the world. It’s believed to be cognate with El in Hebrew, (Believed to be a contraction of Al-illah, with ilah being cognate with eloah in Hebrew, the plural of which is elohim.)

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Link Hudson you will be deceived if you continue down this path

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Acts 19:1-6
      [1]And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
      [2]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
      [3]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
      [4]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
      [5]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
      [6]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      If they believed and hadn’t received the holy ghost yet then in which name did Paul baptise them?

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Jesus. Then they received the holy ghost.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      Ray E Horton by this passage you prove oneness. In Matthew 8:5-9 you will find the unnamed Cornelius.

    • Reply November 26, 2018

      John David Barton

      He knew Jesus. The people Paul baptised in acts 19 said the knew John.

  • Reply November 25, 2018

    John David Barton

    Of course in Jesus name. But that’s another topic. Plain and simple. Without baptism you will not recieve the holy spirit.

    • Reply November 25, 2018

      Ray E Horton

      Without faith you will not receive the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit comes to a person in the new birth which is a Baptism into Jesus. Water baptism is only a symbol of that, and a reaffirmation of what has already happened.

  • Reply November 25, 2018

    Link Hudson

    Troy Day, I attended a Baptist church overseas when that was the only English service I knew of. It was an international church that wasn’t advertized as Baptist and had Pentecostal/Charismatics also. I’ve visited relatives churches, mainly for weddings and funerals. But I wouldn’t call myself a Baptist.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    John David Barton

    Link Hudson the Greek for son is uhios which means foal child 85× translated 87× translated with anthropos which means man face or human being. The Flesh of Jesus didn’t know. Not until he was glorified. But according to Trinitarian doctrine Jesus somehow lost his glory when he came down from heaven. Such falsehoods. God never lost his glory. He gave Jesus life unto himself as a man, and then glorified that flesh just like he will glorify those who are baptised unto Jesus death Romans 6:3-4.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    John David Barton

    David said he keeps God at his right hand. How? In his actions he put God first. Just as God put Jesus first in his actions. That’s why Jesus is at the right hand of the Father because he does the fathers will because he is the father. The right hand of power and action.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    John David Barton

    Link Hudson how dare you compare Jesus to Allah. Colossians 2:9 Jesus is God. All of God. Allah is but a man. Even Trinitarians would be mad at that. Are you even Christian? Do you know what Allah commands his followers to do to Christians. Let me show you

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    John David Barton

    try as you will. Bring in any doctor or scholar. Numbers is all you have. I have Jesus this debate has turned into an evil batch of mixed up heresy. I hope one day you will know Jesus as i do. I stand with Jesus irrefuted and unashamed. Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ and rid yourselves of this false pneuma. I’m out. Peace.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    Link Hudson

    John David Barton The evidence points to the fact that Arabic-speaking Christians called God Allah before Muhammad, calling their children Adullah (contracted form of Abdul Allah), for example. Millions of Christians today call God Allah.

    If Mormons say they worship ‘God’. If you say you worship God, does that nean you believe as Mormons do.

    Our English word ‘God’ is not even related to the Hebrew word etymologically. How many oitright pagans used the word before the Anglo-Saxon conquest? Hebrew shares many of the same triliteral roots with Arabic and other Semitic languages. In this case the root under discussion is ‘LH which is takes the form Eloah and Elohim in Hebrew and illah in Arabic. Contracting Al illah into Allah does not follow a regular pattern in Arabic but that is where scholars derive the term from what I studied. And there is evidence pointing to it being pre-Islamic.

    I studied Arabic and a bit of Hebrew. Have you studied this issue. I spent many years in Indonedia where Christians call God Allah as Arabic soeaking Christians do. If you challenged them on it they would probably tell you its in the Bible.

    In Hebrew and Canaanite a word (or morphene in Hebrew) for God is ‘El’. The Canaanite Ugarits used that word to refer to the Canaanite pantheon and have a story of him getting drunk. Does that mean the Bible is wrong to call God ‘El’ or did the Ugarits worship a different el or have a wrong concept of el? The name is good to use, but Canaanite pagan ideas were just wrong.

    ‘Allah’ sound foreign to ys because Muslims believe that is actually God’s name and usually do not translate it into English. So it sounds foreign.

    But saying Allah is not God is like reading about pagans calling Odin ‘god’ and arguing that ‘God’ is not Elohim. It is like if foreigners heard Mormons talk about ‘God’ and saying ‘God’ is not God.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    Link Hudson

    John David Barton It sounds like you are arguing for two consciousnesses or two minds or two minds in Jesus– one that knew the hour and one that did not. How would that be different the a binitarian (two persons view?) might have believed in that

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    Link Hudson

    John David Barton that’s not Allah in Arabic. The middle letter resembles the first three letters except ut is backwards. I’m not planning on getting any Arabic tattoos or wearing Arabic arm or headbands. When I went to Six Flags as a kid I had them stamp my left habd. The ones who get the mark of the beast have to commit idolatry.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    John David Barton

    Link Hudson. God knew about thesemany names. That’s why he said there’s only one name. What is Jesus in Aramaic. Or yeshu

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    Link Hudson

    John David Barton But the Bible also refers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ by His name, YHWH and wth other words like Elohim, translated as Theos into Greek and ‘God’ into English.

  • Reply November 26, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Link Hudson I am sure you did brother Sure you did

    • Reply November 27, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day I’m having difficulty understanding something. I’m doing a bunch of oneness vs trinity studies. I just want to know the truth, that’s all. Of i find the trinity truth i will switch. I want to be on the right path. Jesus cried on the cross about God forsaking him. But I’m trying to understand howhe could forsake himself. I’m also trying to understand how, if he is his own God person, the father forsaking him makes him godless. Theology is really confusing… Thank you for your help

    • Reply November 27, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      John David Barton how do you relate all this to this baptism OP ?

    • Reply November 27, 2018

      John David Barton

      Troy Day sorry it doesn’t relate to water baptism. I’m just struggling with something thought you might know and offer help.

  • Reply November 27, 2018

    John David Barton

    Link Hudson how could Jesus be forsaken by God on the cross. If he is his own god person how could God leave him

  • Reply November 27, 2018

    Link Hudson

    John David Barton sounds like a problem to oneness adhereants..

  • Reply November 23, 2019

    RichardAnna Boyce

    no, but if a believer is not obedient to Jesus as Lord they might lose rewards in the Millennium.

  • Reply November 23, 2019

    Rob Walker

    Looking at the New Testament water baptism is so closely linked with justification that this really should not be ignored. I think the final question would be is it a Sacrament or an ordinance of God?

  • Reply November 23, 2019

    Ray E Horton

    No, salvation is by His grace alone, received by faith. Once saved, we will want to obey the Lord and be water baptised as a testimony to ourselves and others of what Jesus has done in our lives.

  • Reply November 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    it ALL starts with simple repentance Ray E Horton

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Billy Monroe Poff

    The wording in the post is flawed. It asks if water baptism is necessary to be “completely saved.” If one uses the terminology to be “completely saved”, then that would suggest it would be possible to be “partially saved”. There is no such thing. Either you’re saved or you aren’t. There is no in between.

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      I dont think the post is flawed No where in the BIBLE we are called to be “completely saved” You either is or is not

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Billy Monroe Poff

      Troy Day that’s exactly what I was saying. The term “completely saved” would suggest that one could also be “partially saved” before completing the requirement. Which of course we all know is impossible to be partially saved. You’re either completely saved or completely lost.

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Billy Monroe Poff I would go on and say ppl must be entirely sanctified too in order to be holy without which no one will see GOD

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Les Snowden

      more of public desplay of comitment than nessesary for salvation but still important repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ and you will be saved and given the gifts of the Holy spirit Amen.

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Chris Westerman

    No.

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      no you are not saved cause you are oneness?

    • Reply January 27, 2020

      Chris Westerman

      Troy Day Biblical Unitarian.

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    William DeArteaga

    I think yes, in the course of a Christian’s life normally lived. But God can make exceptions for people with a love of Jesus who have poor theology about this,

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Brady Hall

    Well the thief on the cross next to Christ was not baptized, but I would be very suspicious of anyone who put off baptism. Why not publicly declare your faith?

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    CW Sellers

    Hummm, Christ thought it was.

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    CW Sellers

    It’s an open confirmation of an inner commitment to Christ. Leaving your past life in the water and emerging new in Christ. Jesus insisted that John baptize Him.

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Tara Sing Bhandari

    Baptism is very cheap word in many churches Sad,
    What is baptism ?
    Do you really know who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit ?
    Why we have to ….

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    JameyJoy Doss

    4 Things a man should pursue before he dies.

    1. Place his Faith and Trust in Christ confessing he is lord.
    2. Repent and Turn away from his Ungodliness.
    3. Be baptized in Water. Immersion is best. Why it is how they done it in scripture.
    4. Be filled and Baptized with the Spirit of God!

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Jared Cheshire

    When you break down 1 Peter 3:21 (not to mention all previous instruction in the Gospels and Acts) then yes.

    21 The like figure – a model struck for us by another*

    whereunto even baptism doth also now save us – baptized saves us immediately and henceforth*

    (not – not merely, not only, context missed in many translations*

    the putting away of the filth of the flesh, – discarding or putting down forever the moral depravity that is our humanity*

    but – also or furthermore *

    the answer of a good conscience toward God,) – the intellectual decision of changing the direction of your mindset and thought process away from the depravity to align your self with the mind of God*

    by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    Why no, the theif on the cross, death bed conversions, and those who planned for water Baptism whose life got cut short. Yep there with the Lord. One guy tried to say that if you didn’t get water baptized you’re going to get booted out of heaven I told him he’s full of bologna and he’s not right in that statement because it’s a blood of Jesus Christ God’s son that cleanses us from all sin and therefore if you’ve been cleansed by the blood of Jesus and been born again you’ll be in heaven and he never responded to my point

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Ed Brewer

    It is necessary “for” the saved, but not “to” be saved…

  • Reply January 27, 2020

    Ray E Horton

    No

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Yes.

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Is dowry a requisite in marriage?.

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Remove the water baptism. and give your version of “prepare the way…”

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Was there a salvation prior to Jesus baptism?
    No.
    He has lived for thirty years… and at no time did a voice from heaven say “this is my son.. Listen to him”
    Remove the water baptism and tell me an alternative for Jesus to receive thd Holy Spirit..
    John’s baptism was a precursor to the baptism of salvation for Jesus said
    IT IS RIGHT TO DO IT NOW(The water baptism) to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS..
    If there was a RIGHTNESS in existence prior to Jesus water baptism it was incomplete..
    To complete(to fulfill) the RIGHTEOUSNESS water baptism is a necessity..
    Yes for me scriptural water baptism is a MUST..

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Leonard Harris

    I can’t believe that people speak on this n don’t know what there talking about. St. John 3:1-3:8 verse 5 : Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Water and of the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Verse 3 says the same. Repentance is death to sin. Water Baptism: by total submerged, as burial in the name of Jesus. Not titles, no usage of the name of JESUS you have no power. Then pray to be filled with the HOLY GHOST. Evidence of speaking in tongues as the spirit speaks out of you. One BAPTISM : that has 2 parts WATER n SPIRIT. Look up this Bible Study. INTO HIS MARVELOUS LIGHT. It will explain it.

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    so you are saying YES? Leonard Harris

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Philip Warstler

    I just wrote a blog which goes into a little detail on this subject.

    http://billybobmeabooks.com/blog/plunge-into-baptism/

  • Reply January 28, 2020

    Steve Losee

    NO, but genuinely saved people WANT to get immersed.

  • Reply January 29, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Emmett Smith is water baptism too broad?

  • Reply May 19, 2020

    James Pedreschi

    Good question

  • Reply May 20, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    tell us about them oneness fellers Robert Cox

    • Reply May 20, 2020

      Robert Cox

      Troy Day whew! You don’t wanna hear it from me! Lol

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