Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Is Finished Work theology compatible with Wesleyan?
The more I study the differences they are not compatible. There are many modern efforts to make them compatible however any astute observer should see the oppositions.
What do you think?
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Mark and Matthew record Jesus speaking Aramiac from the cross:
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34 ESV)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46 ESV)
All other times they record Jesus words using the Greek language. It is accepted that Aramaic was the language Jesus spoke. However, it is obvious that many, if not all of the Apostles were able to communicate in both Aramaic and Greek (and probably knew Latin). So it seems likely that Jesus also was able to speak in both Aramaic and Greek.
Mark and Matthew are purposeful to make the point that when Jesus quoted Psalm 22 He used Aramaic. Consequently they are purposeful to exclude any possible confusion or claim that Jesus quoted the Greek translation of the Psalm, which in the Septuagint is significantly different at that point: ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός μου πρόσχες μοι (O God, my God, take heed to me). Quoting the Greek lacks the personal pronoun at the beginning and would also have Jesus asking God to take heed of Him, something the Aramaic precludes.
While the use of the Aramaic quotation can be seen as purposeful to ensure Jesus correctly quotes the Psalm, it also gives reason to question the assertion that all of the other sayings of Jesus were exclusively spoken in Aramaic and translated into Greek.
What is the evidence Jesus spoke exclusively in Aramaic and never used the Greek language?
Nathan Ridgeway
What do you think, Carlos?
Alan N Carla Smith
question with a question…
Charles Page
question with the correct answer!!
Charles Page
Not Baptistic theology but finished work theology
Charles Page
There should not be a question of the compatibility of Wesleyan and Baptistic theology.
Stephen Williams
Finished Work is the idea that sanctification is both part of the work of regeneration and is progressive. The Wesleyan position is that sanctification was a crisis experience that could be sought for. In Pentecostalism this is where one sees the divide between those in the 3 part work of the Spirit (eg. CoG, TN) and the AG. Finished Work was the legacy of William Durham. Many early NA Pentecostals were originally Holiness in their views but FW was later adopted especially among those with Baptist leanings and became the majority view.
Melvin Harter
The Finished Work doctrine as defined in the 20th Century is totally in opposition to the Wesleyan doctrine of sanctification. The issue that is dealt with today is the simple fact that the Substantiation Sanctification was never taught in our CoG schools since the late 1960s. Our schools had hired non-Wesleyan instructors and professors, (example – Dr Donald Bowdle) who not only failed to teach Entire Sanctification, but in actually taught the A/G’s position of the Finished Work doctrine. Today, the CoG reaps from those seeds sown.
Melvin Harter
What fundamental denomination believes that salvation and sanctification both occur in a complete state at what we would call salvation? The A/G would contend that what they call progressive sanctification starts at salvation and is fully realized upon one’s glorification.
Dan Irving
They ARE compatible. What makes them seem in contradiction is they are juxtoposed as competing models of redemption, when they are not. For consider: Although Durham preached FWC, his own experience was Wesleyan (if you read his testimony.)
Varnel Watson
Wesley’s experience was Anglican
Stephen Williams
So does that mean that Wesley is not compatible with Pentecostalism because he was Anglican (English version of Catholic)? ?
Varnel Watson
Are you asking about Wesley’s experience or Wesley himself? Also when you say Pentecostalism do you mean modern day Charismaticostalism or Pentecostalism that includes entire sanctification?
Stephen Williams
I was only joking!
Varnel Watson
I thought the joke was in “Anglican (English version of Catholic)”
Stephen Williams
Yup
Varnel Watson
Like in Charles Page an English version of Carlito Pagiovanni
Stephen Williams
Yeah. I think his OP is also like asking: Is current Pentecostal eschatology compatible with Wesleyan?
Dan Irving
The important thing seems not to deny truth wherever it is held. The Great Awakening produced some truths very much neglected within Pentecostalism; just as those denominations arising from that era have neglected the Pentecostal truth.
Varnel Watson
it is NOT IMO Joe Absher Ray E Horton Peter Vandever Neil Steven Lawrence I think William DeArteaga may speak more to it as a historian and tell us about Phoebe and others BUT from what I’ve read when finished work and Cashwell came into the picture the TRUE and real first Pentecostals as Bartleman were locked out of Azusa – oh well the story of Pentecostalism is always the same but this does NOT make finished work Pentecostal in any way And it is a Calvinistic heresy IMO Michael Ellis Carter Jr. Ed Brewer
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day so we can be progressive in everything but our few of sanctification ?
Joe Absher
Revelation 19:10 KJV — And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Why would a pastor call himself a Prophetic Teacher ? Because he wants the glory and respect and presumption of accuracy of a prophet but not the responsibility or criticism or accountabilty . a Bible teacher by nature of the material will at times be prophetic .
As to the OP you’ve given your answer in agreement with Mr Charles Page .
Varnel Watson
well we are NOT progressive in our salvation You either saved or not saved You either baptized in the Spirit or not You either married or not You either raptured or not So why progress in 2nd work of grace when all others are instantaneous I do not know
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day I’m not sure you do need to progress in your thinking about grace. Some people will however. We worry about second grace, second works, and second blessings when the work of sanctification is the process of holiness. Without which no man shall see the Lord. Sin is sin regardless of when you commit it. Let’s focus on living holy.
Joe Absher
Revelation 19:10 KJV — And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Why would a pastor call himself a Prophetic Teacher ? Because he wants the glory and respect and presumption of inspiration of a prophet but not the responsibility or criticism or accountabilty . a Bible teacher by nature of the material will at times be prophetic .
As to the OP you’ve given your answer in agreement with Mr Charles Page .
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter You either saved or not saved You either baptized in the Spirit or not You either married or not You either raptured or not So why progress in 2nd work of grace when all others are instantaneous I do not know
Daniel J Hesse
You might invite Pastor Lynn Hiles to this conversation.
Varnel Watson
feel free to do so Thank you in advance
RichardAnna Boyce
Progressive Sanctification involves our cooperative response to God’s grace.
Since God supplies the power, sanctification is by grace, but it is not automatic. If it were, it would seem that all Christians would grow at the same rate and none could be held accountable for stagnation or lack of growth. But we know that all Christians do not grow at the same rate or progress to the same degree of holiness. We also know that the Judgment Seat of Christ holds Christians accountable for how they use their lives (Rom. 14:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:9-10), which indicates different degrees of progress in sanctification.
That is why many Bible passages put the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually (eg. Rom. 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God.
1 Corinthians 15:10. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Philippians 2:12-13. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Colossians 1:29. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
2 Peter 1:3-4 with 5-6. …His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises …But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control…
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher Jesus+ is worse than JesusOnly
Joe Absher
Maybe their time on the pages of Pentecostal Theology is helping . at least they’re now talking about repentance and sanctification
Daniel J Hesse
Please include Lynn Hiles
Varnel Watson
pls do we will be happy to have him here
RichardAnna Boyce
Every Christian is progressively sanctified by grace from the moment of justification, through present sanctification, to the final state of glorification. But the progress of our present sanctification may vary depending on our faith that accesses the grace God has made available to us in Christ. Sanctification is God’s desire for us (1 Thes. 4:3; Heb. 12:14; 1 Peter 1:14-15), but it is not an automatic act of God, nor is it merely from human effort. Christians are sanctified by God’s grace accessed through faith.
Varnel Watson
this is not from the BIBLE of course – failing believers thing of all sorts of excuses when they cant live right