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Irenaeus preached and proved the pre-Trib rapture
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Troy Day
Robert Cox NOT TOO SURE why Michael Upchurch and Josias Feliciano are both failing to understand something John Mushenhouse explained to Philip Williams LONG time ago – the pope was wrong on this one. Most church fathers were pre-Trib and this is about ALL #over IF more is needed pls read the book by the very rev dr Terry Wiles
Philip Williams
Troy Day Pre-Mill isn’t Dispy PreTrib!
Troy Day
not sure not sure Robert Cox our Philip Williams is STILL NOT getting it – this ancient document is CLEAR
The CHURCH is taken up BEFORE the evil one #over
Troy Day
Philip Williams this OP is to show what Irenaeus wrote on the pre-Trib Rapture. Not to persuade you into anything per se. Also, if you have taken the time to compare the “translation” is NOT chronological and also picks from certain parts of the Latin #GoFigure BUT it is up to you to believe or ignore all warnings including Irenaeus, Polycarp, Papias, since you believe you know better than them AND you doubt they quoted John rightly
Michael Upchurch
Troy Day ask the Holy Spirit not the other writers.
https://youtu.be/7bbdBYlaqv8?feature=shared
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch no need to SPAM the discussion with Waco tacco vidz
I am very pleased to offer you my own quote on Irenaeus’ pre-trib rapture. I’ve marked it specifically tagging both you and me so there will be NO confusion. Hit me with whatever you’ve got on Irenaeus and I will make sure to get J.D. King Dale M. Coulter to join with their comments too (NO promises there
Michael Upchurch
Troy she hears the Lord. Not a Waco. I promise you that you’ll prove her words time and again.
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch not too familiar with this website and dont see your point here but the link you sent has this text word for word
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Michael Upchurch
i give up. You’re too heady for your own good.
Terry Wiles
Troy Day thanks for the book plug.
Troy Day
this OP is to show what Irenaeus wrote on the pre-Trib Rapture. Not to persuade you into anything per se. Also, if you have taken the time to compare the “translation” is NOT chronological and also picks from certain parts of the Latin #GoFigure BUT it is up to you to believe or ignore all warnings including Irenaeus, Polycarp, Papias, since you believe you know better than them AND you doubt they quoted John rightly
Troy Day
sure Josias Feliciano I havent YET
but ol Irenaeus did on the pre-Trib Rapture
are you smerter than ol Irenaeus or just David Chosen ?
BUT you tell us since you’ve never even read them BUT they are in your own quote 🙂from your friends @ the GNOSTIC society who cant even type borne instead of bone
4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp
Now my scholarly approach to the text and direct quote from the author, which BTW you will not find in Latin on the internet, you offered a quick search with the wrong text and from even more questionable source AND J.D. King likes/loves your gnostic fake translation too 🙂 #GoFigure
Josias Feliciano
Troy Day Oh boy, here we go. You haven’t “YET” because you can’t — because it’s not there. Irenaeus never taught a pre-tribulation rapture. That doctrine didn’t exist for over 1,600 years after him. You’re force-feeding 19th-century Darbyism into a 2nd-century context and hoping no one notices.
And no, I’m not “smerter” than Irenaeus — I’m just reading him properly, without inventing new theology between the lines. You quoting a passage about the Church being “caught up” after the tribulation — and pretending that proves a pre-trib rapture — is the very definition of eisegesis. If you’d actually read Against Heresies 5.25–5.30 in full, you’d realize he clearly expects the Church to face the Antichrist and the tribulation before Christ returns.
Also, ironic flex on calling out typos when you’re proudly typing “bone witness.” Maybe focus less on imaginary Latin manuscripts and more on understanding basic context.
And quoting the Gnostic Society website to me? I used it to disprove the claim. If you’re going to insult sources, at least understand how they’re being used. Try again, but this time, bring an actual quote from Irenaeus that says the Church escapes the tribulation before it happens. You won’t — because it doesn’t exist.
Troy Day
Josias Feliciano actually I have
I have presented a quote from a well known church father
who you apparently cannot read 🙂
just read it and LET the church fathers interpret the BIBLE for you
Virtually ALL Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture
do you know MORE than Virtually ALL Church Fathers ?
I think NOT – cause I can actually think while you have not really said anything theologically SO far YET – speaks of your low character and ability
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-early-church-fathers-and-their-views-of-rapture-eschatology/
Troy Day
Josias Feliciano the gnostix were quoted in a past discussion by some idiot like you – we know you are in idiot because the ACTUAL quote from Irenaeus book V is on the picture but you cannot read an ACTUAL quote from Irenaeus now can you 🙂YOU used it to disprove the claim, now we all know key word here for you is USED to
Josias Feliciano
Ah, there it is. The scholarly “you are in idiot” defense — truly the crown jewel of doctoral rhetoric. I’m starting to wonder if your Ph.D. in Historical Theology was awarded by the same guy who taught you to quote Irenaeus without context.
Let’s clear something up for the slow readers in the back: yes, the quote from Against Heresies Book V says the Church will be “caught up.” You keep waving that line around like it’s a smoking gun, but in context, it happens after the Church faces the tribulation and the Antichrist — the exact opposite of a pre-trib rapture. You’re proving my point without realizing it. Again.
And since you’ve made your education part of your argument — let’s talk about that. You claim a B.A., M.Div., D.Min., and a Ph.D. in Historical Theology, yet can’t distinguish premillennialism from pre-tribulationism? Can’t read Irenaeus without hallucinating Darby’s theology in the margins? That’s not just dishonest — that’s disqualifying.
You’re either lying about your credentials, or you got them from a YouTube comment section. Either way, quoting one sentence and ignoring the surrounding context isn’t scholarship — it’s fanfiction. Try again. This time, show me Irenaeus saying the Church escapes the tribulation before it happens. Not caught up after, not poetic language — I want the doctrine. Chapter and verse. You won’t. Because it doesn’t exist.
Pentecostal Theology
Josias Feliciano You are reading him properly WHERE?
Pls post the URL or snapshot of your source you read
ELSE your claims is as fake as you are fake
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch you give up SO easy cause you are out of ammo
and this after I brought ONLY ONE quote
Imagine IF I unleash all proofs and resources I’ve gathered in 50yrs of scholarly researching pre-trib rapture in the BIBLE Even Henry Volk will need to re-write his catechism for our @followers
Michael Upchurch
Clearly not out of ammo Troy Day, but discussing this with you is futile, as your hope is built on the teachings and writings of man rather than listening to the Holy Spirit in your quiet time. See you in the Trib! Don’t take the mark, and stock up brother. And remember, God uses the foolish, me I suppose, to confound the wise.
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch is clearly NOT saying anything theological
Michael Upchurch
Ok Troy Day, here’s something theological…many point to Matthew 24 and say Jesus is referencing the Rapture……
“And He will send out His angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather His chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.”
Matthew 24:31
There’s the mention of the trumpet. Jesus used the same language as Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which people claim is describing the Rapture.
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16
But look at the verses in Matthew just before verse 31. Jesus is describing the Trib and saying all the world will see Him…..
““Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Matthew 24:29, 30
So is that the rapture? No. It describes anguish and the powers of heaven shaken. And it says “at last” and that they will see Him coming with great power and glory, meaning all the earth will see Him on that day. That’s the Second Coming.
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch SO you keep on mentioning A mention of the trumpet
have you checked it in the Greek first?
is it a trumpet of God or angel
many claimed the last trump is Trump
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/last-trump-opening-of-the-4th-seal-with-pale-horse-running-death/
so WHICH side of the wagon you fall off?
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch ok? you probably STILL havent figured out MT 24 is about Israel and NOT the church – hence the OLIVE discourse? John Mushenhouse Terry Wiles @followers
Michael Upchurch
To my point Troy Day, Paul uses the same language in Thessalonians as Jesus did. And your condescending attitude is childlike. You’re unable to have a conversation without trying to shame and belittle someone. So petty. That’s why I’m done. You’re wasting people’s time.
Michael Upchurch
To my point Troy Day, Paul uses the same language in Thessalonians as Jesus did. And your condescending attitude is childlike. You’re unable to have a conversation without trying to shame and belittle someone. So petty. That’s why I’m done. You’re wasting people’s time.
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch what point?
Are you discussing the OP or high jacking it with well known old frontology ?
Troy Day
Michael Upchurch what point?
Are you discussing the OP or high jacking it with well known old frontology ?
Pentecostal Theology
Michael Upchurch Great question! Paul’s letters, including those to the Thessalonians, often sound quite different from the recorded sayings of Jesus in the Gospels. Here are 7 key reasons why Paul doesn’t use the same language as Jesus in 1 and 2 Thessalonians:
1. 🕰️ Chronological Distance
Paul wrote before the Gospels were composed.
1 Thessalonians is likely the earliest New Testament text, written around AD 50–52, while the Gospels were written decades later.
Paul didn’t have access to written collections of Jesus’ sayings like we do today.
2. 🌍 Different Audiences
Jesus primarily spoke to Jewish audiences in Galilee and Judea, using parables, Torah references, and Hebrew idioms.
Paul was addressing Gentile converts in a Greco-Roman city, so he used Hellenistic rhetoric and moral exhortation suited to their cultural context.
3. 🧠 Theological Focus
Jesus emphasized the Kingdom of God, repentance, and ethical transformation.
Paul, especially in Thessalonians, focuses on Christ’s return (Parousia), resurrection, and community endurance under persecution.
Paul’s theology is Christocentric, interpreting Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection through the lens of apocalyptic hope.
4. 🗣️ Language and Style
Jesus spoke Aramaic, and his sayings were later translated into Greek in the Gospels.
Paul wrote directly in Koine Greek, using Greek rhetorical forms and philosophical vocabulary.
This linguistic gap naturally leads to different expressions and idioms.
5. 📜 Genre and Purpose
The Gospels are narrative biographies focused on Jesus’ life and teachings.
Paul’s letters are occasional epistles—written to address specific issues in early Christian communities.
In Thessalonians, Paul is encouraging perseverance, correcting eschatological confusion, and affirming faith, not recounting Jesus’ teachings verbatim.
6. 🧩 Oral Tradition vs. Personal Revelation
Paul claims to have received the gospel “not from man” but by revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:12).
He likely knew some oral traditions about Jesus, but his emphasis was on the risen Christ and spiritual insight, not quoting Jesus’ earthly ministry.
7. 🔥 Urgency of the End Times
Paul believed the Second Coming was imminent—a theme central to both Thessalonian letters.
This urgency shaped his language: he focused on hope, resurrection, and readiness, rather than ethical parables or kingdom metaphors.
@john mushenhouse @terry wiles @rasiah thomas @michael chauncey @followers