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HISTORICALLY and THEOLOGICALLY, who was the first person in America to come up with the idea of Speaking in Tongues as part of the Holy Ghost baptism?
We know that Parham visited with Dowie where he borrowed the idea from Zion’s healing houses and established healing school in Topeka. But there was no speaking in tongues at Zion – so where did the idea of speaking in tongues come up?
pre 1900 holiness movements and revivals
Charles Page [07/18/2015 11:38 AM]
serious students of scripture!
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 11:52 AM]
Founded in 1747 in England the United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing practiced “singing and dancing, shaking and shouting, speaking with new tongues and prophesying” — some migrated to the United States in 1774 where they met similar faiths. Charismatic religions existed in Europe nearly a century before Pryguny reported their outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1833 in Novorossiya (South Ukraine). Holiness jumping was reported in Los Angeles in April 1904, months before the Pryguny began to arrive in numbers in January 1905. http://www.molokane.org/molokan/NEWS/Azusa_Street.html
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 11:57 AM]
The year 1905 mentioned in my last comment is a bit late. Agnes Ozman was baptized 1 January 1901. Shearer Schoolhouse Revival claimed baptisms as early as 1896. So how was this theology formed in 1880-90s and where did this theology came from?
Charles Page [07/18/2015 12:10 PM]
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:00 PM]
Azusa is too late. The United Holy Church and the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) point to pre-Pentecostal roots as far back as 1886. The Pentecostal Holiness Church, with pre-Pentecostal roots as far back as 1879… http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1998/issue58/58h002.html
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:04 PM]
yes, but wasn’t speaking in tongues manifested at Azusa Street before holiness assemblies in East Tennessee? speaking in tongues didn’t originate in Tellico Plains, right?
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:07 PM]
Azuza 1906 vs E.Tn 1886; Pentecostal Holiness 1879, etc.
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:21 PM]
During an 1883 meeting in Fairview, Ohio, Maria Woodworth-Etter wrote that the people confessed sin and “prayed for a baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire.” Fifteen people came to the altar screaming for mercy and fell over in trances In a huge meeting in Alexandria, Indiana, Maria reported that the power of God took control of about 500 of the 25,000 people, causing many to fall to the ground. “The Holy Ghost sat upon them,” she wrote. “I was overpowered. By 1885 Etter had developed a theology that included salvation, holiness, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, healing, and the imminent return of Christ. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199901/086_woodsworth_etter.cfm
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:22 PM]
C W Conn says it was 1896 10 years after the Holiness movement baptism and ten years before Azusa Street. Some suggest that 1875 was an earlier date. (R B Swann in R. I.)
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:24 PM]
You are correct (my typo). Here’s one for your neck of theological woods: In 1910, William H. Durham, pastor of the North Avenue Mission in Chicago, began making waves throughout Pentecostal circles. Durham returned to the Azusa Mission in 1911 (where he had received the gift of tongues in 1906). William Seymour was on a preaching tour, and Durham was invited to preach. His finished-work teaching generated conflict but sparked a fresh revival. Wrote one observer, “The fire began to fall at old Azusa as at the beginning.” But when Seymour heard what was going on, he promptly returned and padlocked the church door to prevent the Chicago preacher from speaking further in his pulpit. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1998/issue58/58h018.html
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:24 PM]
the notion of a Holy Ghost baptism associated with holiness precedes glossalalia.
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:25 PM]
true – so when & where did glossolalia first came in the picture?
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:35 PM]
Acts 2:4 it has never left. It occurs when people pray fervently and it effectuates glossalalia. Down thru history in various groups of people. It can easily be imitated and the product of frenzy.
That does not distract from the real.
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:37 PM]
for your peace of mind Charles Page Maria Woodworth-Etter did not wear pants on stage (or off stage at that matter) Rick Wadholm Jr Alan N Carla Smith Jon Sellers John Ruffle
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:38 PM]
yes – so which one was the first group in America that picked it up? This author here claims that “Burgess has done us a great service by frankly admitting that the Initial Evidence doctrine simply does not have a history before the 1800’s.” http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Spirit.html
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:43 PM]
Durham sparked more of the AG theology and further he sparked the United Pentecostal movement.
It could be said he was Word of Faith verses Wesleyan Sanctification.
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:44 PM]
A B Simpson and the Christian Missionary Alliance is call a Pentecostal movement.
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:45 PM]
I mentioned Durham b/c you like “finished work”
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:45 PM]
You don’t understand my theology!!! 😉
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:45 PM]
yes – I always forgot Simpson; there were 2 of them with influence on the Slavic Pentecostals in NY/CT – let me dig them up
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:46 PM]
Charles Page I am starting to think I dont understand anyone’s theology but this “revelation of mine” comes too late in life – after many years of preaching, several higher degrees, etc. I find it very very enriching!
John Kissinger [07/18/2015 1:53 PM]
A.B. Simpson (Albert Benjamin Simpson) president of the Christian and Missionary Alliance found Bible College in New York (NYACK)
There was also the Bible school “Bethel,” founded in 1916 in Newark, New Jersey by pioneer of the missionary movement, W.W Simpson (William W. Simpson). About 1892 along with William Christie, WW Simpson traveled to China expecting God to give them to speak the local language (but God did not per se).
Both A.B. Simpson and W.W. Simpson, along with Rev. Brown of New York’s Glad tidings Tabernacle, were instrumental in the groundbreaking of the Assemblies of God with a special focus on its Trinitarian 1914 Statement of Faith.
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:57 PM]
incidentially I have a large stack of CMA magazines that go way back and several issues with A W Tozer as the editor.
Charles Page [07/18/2015 1:59 PM]
Wasn’t much of the NY movement part of the Keswick movement. This movement has greatly increased in today’s Evangelical scene. Donald Bowdle was a Keswick Reformed.
Charles Page [07/21/2015 2:39 PM]
Do any Pentecostal Romanians respond to this discussion group?
[07/22/2015 9:39 AM]
A.B. Simpson, A.J. Gordon, and Andrew Murray all taught in the 1880s that all of the gifts of the Spirit are for today and that God was restoring them to the church. An African-American woman spoke in tongues in Simpson’s church before 1897. Much earlier, a woman prophesied and spoke in tongues in Scottish Presbyterian Edward Irving’s church in the 1830s. Quakers spoke in tongues in the 1600s. Thomas Walsh, one of John Wesley’s preachers, spoke in tongues in the 1700s. Several of the mystics spoke in tongues. But most of these were not connected with the baptism in the Spirit (Irving excepted).
This is nice Charles Page http://www.amatteroftruth.com/what-is-speaking-in-other-tongues
America was founded in 1776 and I would assume that many people spoke in tongues in America before 1900. It is a prominent portion of the scriptures that there would be too many seekers after the truth.
Seems like you have adopted Perry’s native american roots Pentecostalism
…I would assume… does not equal truth…lol…for a forum that claims to be seekers and lovers of truth, so much of “i assume”, “i think”, “i reason”, “i conclude”, etc etc…lol
Who stated the United Holy Church and the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) point to pre-Pentecostal roots as far back as 1886. The Pentecostal Holiness Church, with pre-Pentecostal roots as far back as 1879?
Andrew Gabriel I am reposting this for Link Hudson As one can clearly see historically and theologically there is no baptism with the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues as explicit initial evidence. All other signs you list are not initial evidence. Even the earliest example founded in 1747 in England the United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing practiced “singing and dancing, shaking and shouting, speaking with new tongues and prophesying” — some migrated to the United States in 1774 where they met similar faiths. Charismatic religions existed in Europe nearly a century before Pryguny reported their outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1833 in Novorossiya (South Ukraine). Holiness jumping was reported in Los Angeles in April 1904, months before the Pryguny began to arrive in numbers in January 1905. http://www.molokane.org/molokan/NEWS/Azusa_Street.html
I’m pro speaking in tongues, but insisting that only those who speak in tongues are filled with the Spirit can’t be conclusively proven from scripture. It isn’t clear that all those who were filled with the Spirit spoke in tongues in Acts 19 for example. If half did, and half prophesied, the wording would still fit that situation.
There still are Molokans. A lot of them went to LA in response to a boy prophet who warned them to leave. That may have actually saved some of the Russians and Armenian Molokans.
Acts 19:6 ► When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. #noughsaid
Troy Day If 6 spoke in tongues and 6 prophesied, that verse is still true. If someone doesn’t prophesy when he is baptized with the Holy Ghost, is he still baptized with the Holy Ghost?
anyone here yet? Peter Vandever William DeArteaga
Troy Day count Zinzendorf I believe
Peter Vandever he was in America? – news to me
Troy Day Yes. He owned Morivian Falls at one time and spend a lot of time in PA.
Peter Vandever WHERE do you get the information he spoke in tongues from?
Troy Day I would have to look it up. Eddie L. Hyatt has done a lot of research on it as well
Eddie L. Hyatt is part of this group and could post it if he likes But after reading your post yesterday I am concluding that church folk nowadays wanna social drink get high on CBD and then even wanna see God at the same time
Peter Vandever I know Richard M. Riss did some research on that while Assistant Professor of Church History at Zarephath Bible Institute in Zarephath, BUT it may be a far reach to connect it with the Moravians The entire sanctification was still being formulated at that time and not too close to tongues as initial evidence https://www.amazon.com/Pentecostal-Primitivism-Preserved-Donev-D-Min/dp/1477557539
Zinzendorf (1700-1760) mentions gifts of the spirit and “apostolic powers” being manifest during an outpouring of the Spirit at Herrnhut. He does not specifically mention tongues. I think some people during these early revivals may have spoken in tonuges without it being identified as such. John Wesley, for example, mentions a woman who fell to the ground trembling during one of his meetings. He says, “She cried aloud, though not articulately, her words being swallowed up.”