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De Arteaga: Irwin, Calvin and Darby’s Dispensations of no Spiritual Gifts
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Anonymous
Oscar Valdez you did not comment on your question after I posted NO less than 12 examples disproving your theory; Guess you were too busty posting from Craig Blaising of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary – like I’ve said it before your theory is typical baptist and gotS nothing to do with our true Pentecostal eschatology or the catholic purgatory view Philip Williams subscribe to as a Jesuit
Anonymous
Troy Day My version of dispen is a modified version of the Baptist anyway, especially from the progressive dispen.
Anonymous
In the late 1980s a number of dispensational scholars—in particular Craig A. Blaising, Darrell L. Bock, and Robert L. Saucy—proposed a significant new position developed from within dispensationalism. The major difference between traditional and progressive dispensationalism is that literally NO one in human history had heard about progressive dispensationalism until the 1980s – NOT even JESUS himself HOWEVER some people who claim to be Pentecostal like Oscar Valdez subscribe to this free will baptist view taht is not recognized by ANY major Pentecostal stream…
Anonymous
Troy Day Tha majority of evangelicals in Latin America and especially pentecostals are teaching some form of dispensationalism, even in the United States dispensationalism within evangelicalism remains very popular.
Anonymous
1) J. Dwight Pentecost – from “Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology”, 1958.
“With the identification of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of II Thess 2:7 comes the persistent allegation by the opponents of this view that says the Holy Spirit must cease to operate in the world during the tribulation because He is no longer indwelling the body of Christ as His temple. Nothing could be further from the truth. It must be noted that the Holy Spirit did not undertake an indwelling ministry to every believer in the Old Testament, yet the Lord addressing one under that old economy indicates clearly that salvation was by the operation of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6). Apart from this indwelling ministry Old Testament saints were said to be saved by the Holy Spirit, even though He did not indwell the believer as a temple. So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as He did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but WITHOUT AN INDWELLING MINISTRY. The present-day indwelling is related to empowerment, to union of believer with believer because of their relation to the Temple of God, but the indwelling is entirely distinct and separated from the work of the Spirit in regeneration. Thus, it should be clearly seen that even though THE SPIRIT IS NOT INDWELLING IN THE TRIBULATION, He may still be operative in regeneration.”
2) John F. Walvoord – from “The Rapture Question,” 1979.
“It should also be evident that if the Spirit of God characteristically indwells the church as well as the individual saint in this age, the removal of the Spirit would involve a dispensational change and the removal of the church as well. While the Spirit will work in the tribulation period, HE WILL FOLLOW THE PATTERN OF THE PERIOD BEFORE PENTECOST RATHER THAN THIS PRESENT AGE OF GRACE. The Spirit of God will return to heaven after accomplishing His earthly work, much as the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven after completing His earthly work. In both cases, the work of the Second Person and the Third Person continues, but IN A DIFFERENT SETTING AND IN A DIFFERENT WAY.”
3) John Walvoord – from “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” – p128
“But neither Gundry nor anyone else can prove that THE BAPTIZING WORK OF THE SPIRIT THAT FORMS THE CHURCH IS EVER SEEN IN THE TRIBULATION. That the Spirit works in the tribulation all agree. THAT THE SPIRIT INDWELLS ALL BELIEVERS IS NOWHERE TAUGHT.
4) Hal Lindsey – from “The Rapture”, Bantam Books, p 138)
The Holy Spirit will revert back to do the “work as He did in the Old Testament.”
“The Holy Spirit will not be gone from the world, BUT HIS UNIQUE MINISTRIES IN, THROUGH AND FOR THE BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH.”
“…THE UNIQUE CHURCH ECONOMY MINISTRIES OF INDWELLING, BAPTIZING, SEALING, GIFTING AND FILLING OF EVERY BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH. This is consistent with all that is revealed of the average Tribulation believer’s level of spiritual insight, knowledge and maturity.”
5) John Hagee – from “The Battle For Jerusalem”, p 228
“God will be faithful to His covenant people. The 144,000 Jews who are sealed as witnesses immediately after the Rapture will be granted divine protection so that they may be preserved during the time of Tribulation. God’s judgment and wrath will be evident, yes, but so will His mercy. Once the church has been removed, God will act to bring the nation of Israel to faith in Him. THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHILE NOT INDWELLING BELIEVERS AS HE DID IN THE CHURCH AGE,The Holy Spirit, while not indwelling believers as He did in the church age, will move to convict and enlighten. The Jews will see miraculous signs of God’s work…”
6) Dr. Thomas Ice – from “The Holy Spirit and the Tribulation”
One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit’s role to the church and the tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well. If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for pretribulationism.
The Restrainer
Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current Church Age, supports pretribulationism. Since the lawless one (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation, (called the day of the Lord in this passage), cannot occur until after the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.
I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. These are ministries that are unique to the Church Age. Both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit began on the Day of Pentecost as Acts 2 describes. Therefore, these ministries of the Holy Spirit were not active in this way before the birth of the Church.
The cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit’s present work in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six “the restrainer” is in the neuter gender (to katchon) while in verse seven “the Restrainer” is masculine (o katechn). The significance of such grammar and how it relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas below.
Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. After surveying various interpretations of the passage he concludes:
To one familiar with the Lord Jesus Upper Room Discourse, as Paul undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the Spirit’s personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. THE SPECIAL PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS THE INDWELLER OF SAINTS WILL TERMINATE ABRUPTLY AT THE PAROUSIA AS IT BEGAN ABRUPTLY AT PENTECOST. Once the body of Christ has been caught away to heaven, THE SPIRIT’S MINISTRY WILL REVERT BACK TO WHAT HE DID FOR BELIEVERS DURING THE OT PERIOD. His function of restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon (what is holding back) was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).
Anonymous
NOW you see why you are a Baptist Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day You could never prove your point to me that Baptist dispen teach no salvation after the rapture!🤔😁
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez I gave NO less than a dozen of examples. You can repeat the silly excuse of no proof – but plenty of proof to me. My thesis HOWEVER was they dont believe the Holy Spirit works after the Rapture as Duane L Burgess already told you – so that point proven well as well
Anonymous
Troy Day One thing it is that the Spirit doesn’t work like other dispen. Other is to totally denying salvation after the Rapture.
Anonymous
whatever
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez I believe William DeArteaga is pretty much right-n-clear here DISPENSATIONAL view as by Darby or DTS holds strongly that the gifts are gone with the first apostles OBVIOULSLY for this reason NO true Pentecostal can be dispensational – our friend BILL goes even further to declare that Darby’s disp. is quenching the Spirit of GOD and as such cannot be really Pentecostal in any sense
Anonymous
Troy Day How do you explain the connection of all this years between dispensationalism and Pentecostals? Was not Scofield Bible use in Pentecostal Bible schools for long time? How can you ignore Bible prophecy conferences by Pentecostal teachers using dispensationalism endtime events charts?, etc, etc
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez with the baptist influence of humanistic calvinism that forced itself on Pentecostal faith and scholarship JUST Like you are now forcing the very baptist DTS on our very Pentecostal group
Anonymous
Troy Day I got my pentecostal-arminan welseyan theology filters where nothing of humanistic calvinism can be forced or allowed in my pentecostal form of faith.
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez except DTS?
Anonymous
Troy Day is not except DTS, EVEN DTS! 😅😅
Anonymous
It is biblically correct: certain spiritual gifts are temporary, like the signs of the Apostles.
The offices of Prophet and Apostle were to lay the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2) and Hebrews 1 instruct us that God no longer speaks through Prophets: He has spoken, once and for all, in the Son.
It is the Holy Spirit who gives spiritual gifts as He wills and some spiritual gifts are temporary.
Anonymous
NO such temporality defined in the BIBLE – perhaps in humanism
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess
Brother Duane if that’s your interpretation of Hebrews 1 how do you justify the existence of prophecy after the ascension of Christ?
Consistency my brother.
Nothing in Hebrews 1 suggests some extended 60 yearish period of time after Jesus’ ascension when prophecy would continue than cease after.
And you can have concrete foundation and concrete walls too brother.
That’s why we have multiple
other purposes of prophecy given that are still relevant today.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess, wrong. What a distortion! To say God has now spoken through his Son need not eliminate God speaking in other ways — through prophetic and apostolic charisms simply being two of many others. It’s a relative comparison not an exhaustive statement of how God speaks.
Anonymous
A Holy Spirit who remains to regenerate must certainly indwell. You can’t have one without the other. All the reasons why building a pneumatology on ONE VERSE is so misguided as is the whole Schofield Dispensational fiction. As to why Pentecostals used his Bible or leaned toward his scheme, whoever said Pentecostals are anymore theologically consistent than Baptists who violate their historical identity right and left as do so many, many other Christian traditions.
Anonymous
James Philemon Bowers NOT only Pentecostals used his Bible Everyone used it as well as DAKE I know a BAPTIST pastor around here who is getting a DAKE Bible for Easter Ricky Grimsley Oscar Valdez and he is very dispensational
Anonymous
William DeArteaga is right Link Hudson Oscar Valdez Biblical teaching of the rapture, when taught in balance with the whole of scripture, is healthy and vital for the church.
1. The Blessed Hope incites believers to holiness of living because we want to be ready and spotless at his return.
2. It helps make the believer brave and steadfast in the face of persecution, knowing our redemption is at hand.
3. It makes the Christian worker bold and gives him a sense of urgency in evangelism, knowing that the harvest is great and time is short.
4. It helps him keep his priorities straight, because the material world is temporary and will soon pass away. His heart is set on heaven, his eye on the comingof Christ, and his mind on God’s eternal kingdom and glory…
Anonymous
Troy Day I agree with that. I do not agree with the teaching that Jesus will return twice befor the thousand years.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I am not aware of ANY such teaching that Jesus will return twice before the thousand years – perhaps you are getting there You are once again equating the very Biblical terms rapture and return to be the same thing which they are NOT in the BIBLE; makes no sense to have a rapture @ the return. The rapture is NOT a cruise to nowhere Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey
Anonymous
Troy Day let me put ot thos way–the idea that Jesus’ coming happens twice before the thousand-year reign. I see no evidence of this in the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 tells us that the Rapture occurs of the coming of Christ
Anonymous
Link Hudson There is NO idea that Jesus’ coming happens twice before the thousand-year reign. – Jesus’ coming happens only once! You are again mixing the BIBLICAL terms rapture and return. Study them more Skip Pauley already rightly explained to you THAT rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire
Anonymous
Troy Day Look at I Thessalonians 4.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Look at the words I mentioned. The Biblical rapture, the one mentioned here in I Thessalonians 4, happens at the coming of the Lord.
If you say the pre-trib rapture doesn’t happen at the coming of the Lord, then that pretty much fits with the bizarre cherry picking of verses out of context that happens with pre-trib rapture teaching. So just take the verses about the rapture, and ignore the fact that a few verses before the setting is the coming of the Lord. It’s kind of like how pretribbers use ‘the one shall be taken and the other left’ and ‘as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be’ and ignore that several verses later, we are shown that the coming of the Son of man happens after the tribulation.
So what you are saying is pretty consistent with a lot of the incoherent approach to Bible interpretation I repeatedly see from pretribbers on this forum.
Btw, I corrected some of the false assumptions in the post you just quoted earlier.
Anonymous
Link Hudson The Biblical rapture, the one mentioned here in I Thessalonians 4, does NOT happen at the coming of the Lord – two separate events as Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey already explained You again mix and match terms that you do not understand – rapture VS return High time to start study them seriously, lest err more
Anonymous
Troy Day read v. 15 above.
Anonymous
Link Hudson and v17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds
Anonymous
Troy Day Notice this happens at the coming of the Lord.
So shall we ever be with the Lord, so when He descends to the earth, we shall be with him. The passage says nothing about pre-trib. What passage is this, exactly, anywhere in the Bible that says anything about a pretrib rapture? That’s what’s missing from pretrib rapture eschatology–the Biblical support part.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Notice rapture is not the coming of the Lord.
Anonymous
Troy Day it happens at the coming of the Lord accordingto I Thessalonians 4, as does the destruction of the lawless one according to II Thessalonians 2:8
Anonymous
Link Hudson the pre-trib rapture does NOT happen at the coming of the Lord according to I Thessalonians 4
Anonymous
Troy Day I Thessalonians 4 still says what it says, no matter what your objections are:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Do you disagree with Paul that there will be those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, and instead argue that these will be caught up seven years before His coming?
Anonymous
Link Hudson I have no objections to the BIBLE as you do. It clearly states in the clouds – it actually cannot be more clearly. Sure there may be other interpretations out there BUT the Pentecostal read of this verses is about pre-trib rapture and it has always been that. Baptists may think otherwise – who cares? This is a Pentecostal group where we read the BIBLE as Pentecostals except Philip Williams who is NAR/catholic now
Anonymous
Troy Day We meet the Lord in the air at His coming. Read II Thessalonians 1. When Jesus comes and gives the church rest, He executes judgment on them that believe not, on the day when He comes to be glorified in his holy people.
Anonymous
Link Hudson We meet the Lord in the air at the rapture. Read 1 Thessalonians 4 – II Thessalonians 1 says nothing like that
Anonymous
Troy Day The church gets rest from tribulation when the Lord comes back to execute judgment on the wicked.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you keep on saying stuff but I guess you cant prove it with the BIBLE – once we get into the text you disappear in the smoke
Anonymous
I Thessalonians 4 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD…
Anonymous
Troy Day #gaslighting Ironic. I quote scripture, then that is what you do.
Anonymous
The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire
Stanley Wayne
There is no “dispensation of apostolic times” according to almost all iterations of Dispensationalism. That is part of the dispensation starting at Pentecost and reaching to the rapture. It is also called the dispensation of Grace or Gentiles or Church.
They were cessationists only because just about everybody was in the 1830s
Stanley Wayne
Irwin= Irving?
Stanley Wayne
Calvin was not a dispensationalist.
Stanley Wayne
These statements are all inaccurate.
Anonymous
post-Trib was created for lazy ppl Philip Williams who dont live holy right now
Troy Day
Oscar Valdez Brett Dobbs Darnell Henson Jr. and all my @followers I think William DeArteaga is quite right on this one here
Troy Day
this is THE Post Philip Williams Oscar Valdez where William DeArteaga explains HOW disp. limits the GIFTS and DTS progresso does NOT help explain it better Duane L Burgess will tell you the same
Troy Day
are you unable to answer William DeArteaga on this one? Oscar Valdez