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CONNECTION between
NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION and LIBERATION THEOLOGY
as requested by John Ruffle Timothy Carter
John Kissinger [08/12/2015 9:57 AM]
1. Marxist economics http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/kgb-created-liberation-theology/
2. Christian reconstruction
3. Covenant Theology
4. Kingdom-now teaching
5. Postmillennialism
6. Millennium without physically present Christ
7. We live in the Millennium now
8. Millennium started on the Day of Pentecost
9. Jesus returned @ 70 AD ( Charles Page )
10. Protesting protestants and Christian revolutionists, etc.
John Kissinger [08/12/2015 10:03 AM]
Timothy Carter Charles Page William DeArteaga John Ruffle
John Kissinger [08/12/2015 3:43 PM]
https://sojo.net/articles/social-justice-christian-tradition-not-liberal-agenda
John Ruffle [08/12/2015 5:21 PM]
Somehow I think the article has the cart befire the horse. Like we need a justification for social action. We need -desperately- to surrender our flesh to the Spirit of God and be obedient to whatever Jesus wills us to do. I see here a creaping guilt thing which has to do with not being comfortable being a counta-cultural prophetic voice in society.
I truely believe we Ned to EMMERSE our lives in the Word of God. That’s nkthi g to do Sith being a scripture scholar like the pharasies…. it’s about living fellowship with Him who IS the living Word of God.
Pentecostal Theology [08/12/2015 9:05 PM]
basically they both come from the same family of liberal theologians
Pentecostal Theology [08/13/2015 8:08 AM]
how is that for kingdom-now covenant theology? “Jesus never sought to change the world through public policy but rather through personal transformation.” http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/50956-bishop-t-d-jakes-shocked-to-read-manipulation-of-his-gay-marriage-comments
John Kissinger [08/13/2015 8:10 AM]
basically they both come from the same family of liberal theologians
Jon Ray
No doubt about it right Henry Volk https://www.facebook.com/lausannemovement/photos/a.10150275651505043.525437.196600290042/10157191864075043/?type=3&theater
Jon Ray
“Bolivia, a country ruled since 2006 by Evo Morales, a socialist whose policies resemble those of the late Hugo Chávez, dictator of Venezuela. In spite of Morales’ leftist policies and his open disdain for Christianity (he has at times invited native spiritualists to sacrifice llamas outside his government offices) the church of Jesus Christ continues to thrive in Bolivia.” http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/27268-why-i-m-not-worried-about-the-next-four-years
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles you know that I have a bone to pick with liberation theology and is a bit of my specialty nowadays
To start with what Bob Wizenhut is presenting in this group as BLM is a fraud. He is a white male with leftist inclination as Nelson Banuchi has already establish
TO misrepresent BLM as Pedagogy of the Oppressed is a mortal theological sin to begin with BUT beyond that
YES, KGB hi-jacked the Catholic church work of Freire and had Gutierrez create a counterfeit to take over and wake up theologically several socialists revolutions in South America by touching a very sensitive Catholic religiousity within those latino peoples
From this point on the liberation theology withing South America was so strong that virtually every theological movement that emerged there is liberation oriented.
Hence in the 80-90s both Harvey Cox (Harvard) and Peter Wagner (Fuller) established model latin American evangelical revivalism within the scope of the historic Catholic liberation movement It is the new world religion and what many believe to be true evangelicalism. Hence K. Copeland and others are so fond of the pope, and leading kingdom-now representative Ulf Ekman turned Catholic
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/kgb-created-liberation-theology/
Nelson Banuchi
I posted a comment I found in the OP site referenced.
Terry Wiles
I agree with your post. To me
Terry Wiles
Let me say there is very strong movements of salvation among central and South America. The preaching of the cross is happening and many are being saved. So much so where we were once stoned for preaching the Gospel the majority of the population has become Spirit filled.
Bob Wizenhut
Please don’t misrepresent me or anything that I’ve posted. I’ve never had leftist leanings nor do I misrepresent the views of Black Lives Matter Cincinnati. In fact, it would be fair to say that I drive the views of Black Lives Matter Cincinnati, and their Biblical basis.
Nelson Banuchi
Bob Wizenhut Just a suggestion, but you should provide more info on your FB page about yourself and, perhaps, a picture of yourself on your FB page, especially since you are white. Merely having MLK, Jr’s photo while you are white just might come across as deceptive, especially to those whom I assume you are trying tp help.
I also noticed that there is website that formerly was “BLM Cincinnati” and changed their name to “Mass Action for Black Liberation.” Apparently, you are not affiliated with them. It seems you are a one person BLM Cincinnati and not really and organization. Is that correct?
Bob Wizenhut
Nelson Banuchi – we don’t have paid staff but we have 7,000 members. Many of those members participate in constructive dialog. While we incorporate a Biblical perspective into what the moderators post we are open to posts from our diverse membership as long as it relates to systemic injustice instead of partisan promotion. It is true that the majority of our membership is white but that would be true of other BLM chapters as well.
Nelson Banuchi
Bob Wizenhut Thanks for the clarification of BLM.
Are you associated with the BLM Cincinnati that changed it’s name to “Mass Action for Black Liberation”?
Would you consider updating you’re FB page as I suggested?
Bob Wizenhut
Don’t know anything about an organization named Mass Action for Black Liberation. And I think MLK works perfect for my FB page as I apply his methods to our struggle today.
Varnel Watson
Bob Wizenhut I have shown you as well as Scotty Searan how your misunderstanding of modern day American evangelicalism in the post-Trump era is basically another form of leftist socialism. And it most certainly is not conservative Biblical republicanism
Bob Wizenhut
Troy Day – OK, give me a two sentence refresher on how that is so
Varnel Watson
oh yeah – not again – go back and read pls
Bob Wizenhut
Read what? No reference point. Just a comment that you’ve already shown Scotty and I …
Nelson Banuchi
Bob Wizenhut You should. They were formerly, BLM of Cincinnati: http://blacklivescincy.com/home/2018/03/28/why-black-lives-matter-cincinnati-is-changing-its-name/
First of all, in actuality, it seems misleading for you to refer to it as “*my* struggle,” since you are not black. You may be assisting in the struggle but it it doesn’t seem to be properly or directly “your” struggle, not unless you face the same discriminations and abuses as a white man that the black man faces.
Second, I’m not suggesting you remove the photo of MLK, Jr. I’m suggesting you *add* a photo of yourself to your FB page’s large banner (or switch and place MLK Jr.’s photo on the large banner and your photo on the smaller square banner.
With that, I would suggest a little paragraph of introduction as to why you are assisting the community of color with *their* struggle for equal rights and protections.
As I stated earlier, your FB page is very misleading as to the person who is claiming to sponsor BLM in Cincinnati.
Btw, can you provide some sort of evidence of your formal association with BLM (perhaps, an ID card or letter of association). I ask because, (a) you admit not knowing and, therefore, not having any association with what was formerly BLM Cincinnati (what you claim to be involved in), and (b) it makes me wonder if your association with BLM is legit or merely just your putting up a FB page on your own thinking your helping the community of color (and, if so, commendable, perhaps, nevertheless, misleading to the point of deception).
Can’t take claims for granted these days, especially on the Internet.
Bob Wizenhut
Nelson Banuchi -= now don’t start misquoting me again. We’ve been there before. 🙂
Nelson Banuchi
Bob Wizenhut Where did I misquote you here? And, when did I ever misquote you? Please point it out.
Varnel Watson
Yes, a starting reference point please not just a comment
Terry Wiles
Troll alert
Scotty Searan
Troy Day not again. I do not believe in secular liberal socialism
I have asked you to quit saying that.
USE THIS AS A REFERENCE POINT.
I do not believe in forcefully taking from one group of people and giving to another to make them equal.
That has never worked in society, because you have always had a select group of people who live better and have more than the others.
But I do believe in Christian communal system. And i do believe the Bible teaches that.
I do believe that Jesus Christ taught that.
I do not believe Jesus taught that it was alright for Christians to become rich and not share it with others by their giving. They would do this voluntarily out of love for their neighbors Not forcefully have it taken from them.
We know what Jesus said about where your treasure is
The reason why I believe it you see Christianity in its purist form in the beginning of the Church in the first 7 chapters.
In Acts 8 persecution hit the church and they had to leave Jerusalem.
I believe in the short time that all the thousands of Saints in Jerusalem that were saved and baptized with the Holy Ghost were getting a supernatural infusion from the Apostles and the Holy Ghost of what Jesus Christ taught and preached while here on this earth, even though it wasn’t recorded the Holy Ghost was filling the first Saints with a monumental task of spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.
What in the Pentecostal denominations is closest to communal living?
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan there is NO other. What you call Christian is just another form of non-Biblical utopia
Bob Wizenhut
Troy Day – this is worthy of starting a new thread
Nelson Banuchi
Bob Wizenhut Are you going to give an example of where I misquoted you, as you contend? If you are going to ignore my request and not point it out, I can only assume that you are commenting off the top of your head making unwarranted accusations, which is engaging in dishonesty.
Terry Wiles
Bob need to stop being deceptive on his site by posting his picture.
Varnel Watson
Bob Wizenhut we’ve started so many new threads with this that it aint worth my time no more; the OP however is HOW this socialistic kingdom-now theology is affecting our AG churches
Terry Wiles
Troy Day
I agree with your post. I work extensively in central and South America and know the sewers of Liberation Theology and the NAR connections to it. Very damaging.
I also work/associate/am exposed directly to African American BLT Church leadership. They are not directly connected to BLM and in most cases would repudiate their actions. Yet they are immersed in Liberation Theology and see salvation theology through that lens.
It is that type of strong voice that gives “perception” of truth that the masses embrace while Pentecostals, at the same time, not only do not raise their voice against it but spend their time arguing over the preeminence of tongues and jump on every new “wind” of doctrine as the “new thing” to ride in order to get a spiritual thrill including worshiping worship.
All this arguing is taking place when much of the world, even locally has never been confronted with the liberty that comes from following Christ to a Cross and finding death to sin there.
Go figure!
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles the entrance of social gospel and liberation theology growth is the END of Pentecostalism Dan Irving
AG published 4 foundational and critical papers:
2000 EndTime revival … resolution 16
2001 apostles and prophets
2003 – discipleship and submission
2004 statement of fundamental truths – the last of the reclaiming documents to re establish authority and fix the NAR/Bentley issue
From 2005 onward the crises deepened and in the next decade created the perfect storm first reckoned with the current membership decline and if not fixed on time repeat the cycle by 2020-22
REF: Endtime Revival-Spirit-Led And Spirit-Controlled: A Response Paper To Resolution 16. Springfield (Missouri). The General Council of the Assemblies of God https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZFV50fbksoC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=assemblies+of+god+resolution+16&source=bl&ots=UYroXV9wZX&sig=iVSpOoCwjNeWU4hyIMzjfmXmx7U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjl9ceN77DbAhUGRK0KHebMAfMQ6AEIggEwDQ#v=onepage&q=assemblies%20of%20god%20resolution%2016&f=false
Terry Wiles
There are many faces of Pentecostalism. Which face are you referring to?
Varnel Watson
the one that AG described in 4 foundational and critical papers in Response To Resolution 16.
Terry Wiles
?
Varnel Watson
check the link posted above to the said paper: Endtime Revival-Spirit-Led And Spirit-Controlled: A Response Paper To Resolution 16. Springfield (Missouri). The General Council of the Assemblies of God http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200102/088_endtime_revival.cfm
Varnel Watson
more specifically
3. The practice of imparting or imposing personal leadings by means of gifts of utterance. Instances of Spirit-prompted personal advice, contrary to common sense yet definitely of divine origin, are so infrequent that recklessly giving personal prophecies soon becomes an abuse in the body of Christ. Though Paul and Barnabas were rightfully set apart by the Holy Spirit for an unspecified work (Acts 13:2), the two still had to hear the Spirit’s direction for their specific assignments. Their call was heard by the gathered believers while worshiping and fasting, and all present, including Paul and Barnabas, were obviously persuaded that it was indeed the Spirit speaking. If the “prophesied” words are from God, the Holy Spirit will also confirm the reality to the heart of the one set apart for the Spirit’s work.
and the whole #4
Terry Wiles
Troy Day I know the paper. I was a primary author.
I only recognize one face of pentecostalism. Classical.
By that I mean the kind founded by Acts 1:8 and primarily reflected Acts 2:42 & 47.
All the things in Res 16 are counterfeits.
Varnel Watson
Bob Wizenhut do you support the current policies OF
1. walling off the nation
2. closing the open market with international tariffs
3. limiting migration and immigration?
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Kingdom Now or Dominion theology. The thought that God’s kingdom can come on earth with a little help from humankind is intriguing to those who advocate this approach to impacting society. Rather than scoffing at the promise of Christ’s imminent return (2 Peter 3:3,4), this errant theology says that Jesus will not return until the Church takes dominion of the earth back from Satan and his followers. By taking control, through whatever means possible, of political, ecclesiastical, educational, economic, and other structures, Christians supposedly can make the world a worthy place for Christ to return and rule over.6 This unscriptural triumphalism generates other related variant teachings. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200102/088_endtime_revival.cfm
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles I see that Bob Wizenhut Scotty Searan are still stuck in socialism utopia and you went deep state 9 with Ricky Grimsley so I am proceeding with the actual theological OP at hand:
The 1949 General Council of the Assemblies of God, in Seattle, Washington, adopted a resolution disapproving the doctrines of the New Order of the Latter Rain.
4. Don’t allow those who have visited other scenes of God’s seemingly spectacular move to persuade you or your people to merely copy the activity observed elsewhere. Seek God for His special move according to the needs of your church. A carbon-copy “revival” is likely to be man-made.
6. Do not invite speakers to fill your pulpit out of a desire just to see
“manifestations.”
This false teaching is treated in detail in “The Kingdom of God as Described in Holy Scripture,” position paper of the Assemblies of God (Springfield, Missouri: Gospel Publishing House, 1990).
Ultimately Resolution 16 ended the apostolic movement in AG Peter Vandever has prior proposed that the Vineyard movement with their former Vineyard 5 pastor-prophets or the great Kansas-4 are the natural continuation of the prophetic AG movement but I dont believe that for one little bit – its all pure kingdom-now political theology now
Varnel Watson
Bob I dont believe you’ve been mis-represented as we are merely discussing not you but our take on the issues of OP You come as a secondary topic, but I do agree with Terry and Nelson that you are kind of misleading for the general public in the way you are trying to misrepresent your own self on the internet #JustSayin
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Scotty Searan (1) The notion, expressed in the writings of Gustavo Guttierrez and Juan Luis Segundo, that private ownership of the means of production should be eliminated, and workers, peasants, and farmers left to the mercies of total nationalization and deprived of the right to own their own enterprises or work their own land, even as part of a cooperative. (A cooperative, though a form of socialized property, is nonetheless private property.)
But, you interject, “Whoa there, this isn’t socialism!” You’re wrong. This is precisely how socialism started in the early nineteenth century, before Marx got his collectivist teeth into it. This is what the Christian socialists such as John Ludlow, Philippe Buchez, and Archbishop Ketteler meant by socialism, what even secular socialists like Robert Owen, Louis Blanc, and Ferdinand Lassalle meant by socialism. And this is precisely how post-Marxian socialism is evolving in the modern era.
Proof: The Socialist International, a federation of non-communist socialist parties, has since 1951 operated under a charter known as the Frankfurt Declaration, which not only defends the legitimacy of “private ownership in… agriculture, handicraft, retail trade, and small and middle-sized industries” but also proposes the wide use of consumer and producer cooperatives. The Declaration also calls for the maximum decentralization of economic power consistent with “the aims of planning,” and the maximum participation of workers in “the direction of their industry.” And although they do not use the term “socialism” and would put a lesser emphasis on public ownership, this is how the U.S. Catholic Bishops tend to describe a Christian economy in their recent pastoral.
(2) A second false Marxist notion, embraced by liberation theologians such as Gustavo Gutierrez and Enrique Dussel, is the idea that the employer-employee (wage) relationship is of its nature and of necessity evil, enslaving, and alienating. Since power tends to corrupt, the cooperative relationship is better than the employer-employee relationship, but even cooperative workers must be paid wages and work under bosses. Public employers, as in the Marxist vision, can be even more oppressive than private. Nevertheless, some public ownership is necessary, as popes and bishops have acknowledged.
(3) Liberation theologians, apparently incapable of distinguishing between the policies of Ronald Reagan and democratic government, and impatient with the failures of democratic reform in Latin America, have been ambiguous about the Marxist nonsense enshrined in the phrase “dictatorship of the proletariat.” The Socialist International, however, is not ambiguous on this score. The Declaration again: “Without freedom there can be no Socialism. Socialism can be achieved only through democracy.” And to make sure you understand that democracy cannot be reconciled with any kind of dictatorship, as in “democratic centralism,” it adds, “Every dictatorship… is a danger to the freedom of all nations and thereby to the peace of the world.”
Anonymous
Testing the Apostles of the New Reform Apostolic and Prophetic.
The apostles of the New Reformed Apostolic and Prophetic, do not intend to be mere missionaries and church founders. Rather, they claim to have a formal position in church government, similar to that of the Apostles of Christ. In our assessment, however, the NAR leaders have not been able to produce biblical support for their teaching that today’s apostles must govern the church. But even if they could provide needed support, the apostles of NAR would still have to pass five biblical tests to be genuine apostles.
What are these tests? First, they must have literally seen the risen Lord. Secondly, they must have received a specific commission from Christ in the form of the first commissioned during the Apostolic Era. Third, they must perform miracles that testify to their authority as apostles of Christ. Fourth, any new teaching or practice they promote must be backed up in scripture.. And fifthly, they must exhibit an exemplary quality of ministry and lives of the highest level of virtue and integrity. Let’s see the first one of these.
An appearance of Christ.
Seeing Jesus personally is something many—but not all—the NAR apostles claim to have experienced. Apostle Peter Wagner believes that a personal appearance of Christ should not serve as a fiery test to determine whether a person is truly an apostle. Why not? It’s curious. For Paul, having “seen Jesus our Lord” was a criteria for all the apostles of Christ (see 1 Cor. 9:1). So why are the Apostles of NAR exempt? Wagner is not saying so. (He claims, however, that about twenty percent of the apostles he knows have seen Jesus personally.) However, other prominent apostles of the NAR, like Rick Joyner, do believe that an appearance of Christ is a non-negotiable requirement for being an apostle.
But claiming to have seen Christ is not enough. For such a statement to be believed, the person making it must prove that the appearance took place. How to do it ? In the case of the Apostle Paul, other people could bring testimonies to back up his assertion. Paul’s traveling companions were present when Christ appeared to him. They did not see Christ, but they saw the bright light, and heard the sound of his voice. They also saw the powerful effect that Christ’s appearance had in Paul: it blinded him for three days. After his appearance to Paul, Christ also appeared to another person, Ananias, in a vision and spoke to Paul of his appearance. Ananias, therefore, could provide another testimony that would corroborate Paul’s affirmation. Furthermore, and this is crucial, Paul sought counsel with the Apostles of Christ after a long period of reflection and self-examination. Three years into his Christian life he ascended to Jerusalem to see Peter—the recognized leader of the Twelve—and stayed with him for fifteen days (Gal. 1:18). Paul sees this encounter as a validation of his own credentials as an apostle. Evidently, the time spent with Peter was crucial in confirming Paul’s status as Apostle. It was proof that he was real.
Paul’s instant and radical conversion—from a persecutor of Christians to one of his best-known leaders—suggested he had a genuine encounter with Christ. Christ’s appearance to Paul wasn’t just an empty statement without independent validation. Others could attest to it and the transforming effects it had on their life (Gal. 1:11-24).
The Apostles of NAR cannot rule out the requirement to have seen Christ.. And if they have actually received an appearance from him, then others should be able to confirm it. Surely God, who appointed no less than twelve official eyewitnesses to contribute to the writing of the four accounts of the Gospels about the life of Christ—and the same in the case of Paul—God would be equally interested in providing multiple voices of witness to verify that a modern day apostle has experienced a literal visit from Jesus Christ.
– R. Douglas Geivett and Holly Pivec.
God’s Super-Apostles Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. (The Super Apostles of God. Encounter with the Global Movement of Prophets and Apostles).
Anonymous
modern day NAR discussion requires a belief in dispensationalism of some sort!
Anonymous
live@5?
Anonymous
Charles Page actually, they are Latter Rain looking for a great endtime revival, just the opposite of Dispensationalism which teaches endtime apostacy.
Anonymous
I knew two great religious sociologists: Harvey Cox and C Peter Wagner. Harvey was into liberation theology. Peter was not. This post is nonsense!