Apologetics labeling Kingdom-now Theology in Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation as a cult

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Many apologetics experts would label the Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation movement a cult. This is because NAR leaders elevate existential experiences above the Word of God and claim many “supernatural” experiences are from God. It is from these experiences that they self-proclaim themselves as Prophets and Apostles. And it is important to understand that Wagner asserts that Christianity needs to align itself to his NAR “Apostolic governance”. Nevertheless, Wagner’s protest highlights very cult-like tendencies in his movement. He also says , “Al-Jazeera News picked up on the theme and posted an article on the NAR under the title “America’s own Taliban.” The Al-Jazeera would understand theologically, sociologically and politcally what the Taliban believe and practice. What makes Wagner think that they do not know what they are talking about. When you compare NAR theology to extreme Islamic theology, the similarities are striking.

NPR on Wednesday published an article called, “The New Apostolic Reformation: The Evangelicals Engaged in Spiritual Warfare.” The article names C. Peter Wagner as the movement’s architect and ties Texas Gov. Rick Perry and other politicians to NAR in a negative light. Wagner has been observing how the media is working to taint Christian political candidates with false notions about the NAR and wrote the following article to explain what the NAR is—and what the NAR is not.

Surprisingly, the New Apostolic Reformation has recently become a topic of discussion in the political media. I noticed some mention of it in connection with Sarah Palin’s run for vice president, but I considered it relatively insignificant. Then more talk of the NAR surfaced around Michelle Bachman, but it soared to a new level when Rick Perry entered the race for the Republican nomination for President in August.

The best I can discern, the NAR has become a tool in the hands of certain liberal opponents of the conservative candidates designed to discredit them on the basis of their friendship with certain Christian leaders supposedly affiliated with the NAR. To bolster this attempt, they seek to accuse the NAR of teaching false doctrine and paste on it the label of “cult.” For example, Forgotten Word Ministries posts an article by Marsha West expressing concerns about Rick Perry’s prayer assembly in Houston on August 6, that uses the title: “Texas Governor’s Upcoming Leadership Event Includes Cult Members.”

Soon after the event, nothing less than Al-Jazeera News picked up on the theme and posted an article on the NAR under the title “America’s own Taliban.” My name comes up in most of the Internet postings on NAR, but in this one I am called the “intellectual godfather” of the movement. When I read that, I felt that I had a responsibility to attempt to bring some clarification as to what the NAR is, what are its goals, and how these goals are being implemented.

An emerging Christian movement that seeks to take dominion over politics, business and culture in preparation for the end times and the return of Jesus, is becoming more of a presence in American politics. The leaders are considered apostles and prophets, gifted by God for this role.

What Is the NAR?
The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam. Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years.

The roots of the NAR go back to the beginning of the African Independent Church Movement in 1900, the Chinese House Church Movement beginning in 1976, the U.S. Independent Charismatic Movement beginning in the 1970s and the Latin American Grassroots Church Movement beginning around the same time. I was neither the founder nor a member of any of these movements, I was simply a professor who observed that they were the fastest growing churches in their respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics.

If I was going to write about this phenomenal move of the Holy Spirit, I knew I had to give it a name. I tried “Postdenominational” but soon dropped it because of the objections of many of my friends who were denominational executives.  Then, in 1994, I tested “New Apostolic Reformation.” “Reformation” because the movement matched the Protestant Reformation in world impact; “Apostolic” because of all the changes the most radical one was apostolic governance, which I’ll explain in due time; and “New” because several churches and denominations already carried the name “apostolic,” but they did not fit the NAR pattern. Other names of this movement which are more or less synonymous with NAR have been “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” or “Nondenominational.”

I am rather fascinated at the lists of individuals whom the media glibly connects with the NAR. I’m sure that some of them wouldn’t even recognize the term. In many cases, however, they would fit the NAR template, but since the NAR has no membership list they themselves would need to say whether they consider themselves affiliated or not.

Concerns about the NAR
If the critics are using openness to NAR as a slur against conservative political candidates, they obviously need to verbalize what could be wrong with NAR in the first place. To suppose that NAR is a “cult” or that it teaches “heresy” can be attributed only to sloppy or immature journalism. All too often “heresy” has come to mean only that the person disagrees with me and my friends, but the purpose of using the word is to project guilt by association on the politician. It attempts to implant a question: Who would vote for a heretic? But there is little evidence presented that the issue in question incorporates the doctrinal unorthodoxy of a true heresy. Instead, key words are usually dropped which describe legitimate areas of disagreement among Christian theologians on the level of whether or not we baptize infants. Neither of the opposite positions on matters like this deserve to be placed in the category of heresy.

Let me review the media pieces I have collected and pick out some key words in order to clarify my position. I say “my position,” because others in NAR might not agree with me, and they are not compelled to do so. NAR has no official statements of theology or ecclesiology, although a large number of us do happen to agree upon many somewhat radical conclusions. Most of us have long track records of service within traditional Christianity, and we have needed to go through paradigm shifts to get where we are now. Keep in mind that one of the affects of every paradigm shift is that some people get pulled out of their comfort zones. One of the reasons for opposition to some of the more radical ideas of NAR is that certain people have decided not to change and they are upset with those who have chosen to change.

Apostolic governance. As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul’s words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, “gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry” (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.

I strongly object to journalists using the adjective “self-appointed” or “self-declared” when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is “set in” or “commissioned” to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

The office of prophet. Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, “Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And also:  “Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

Dominionism. This refers to the desire that some of my friends and I have to follow Jesus and do what He wants. One of the things He does want He taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This means that we do our best to see that what we know is characteristic of heaven  work its way into the warp and woof of our society here on earth. Think of heaven: no injustice, no poverty, righteousness, peace, prosperity, no disease, love, no corruption, no crime, no misery, no racism, and I could go on. Wouldn’t you like your city to display those characteristics?

But where does dominion come in? On the first page of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve to “fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, etc.” (Genesis 1:28). Adam, Eve, and the whole human race were to take dominion over the rest of creation, but Satan entered the picture, succeeded in usurping Adam’s dominion for himself and became what Jesus calls “the ruler of this world” (John 14:30). When Jesus came, He brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.

A theocracy. The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

Extra-biblical revelation. Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.

Supernatural signs and wonders. I have a hard time understanding why some include this in their list of “heresies.” Whenever Jesus sent out His disciples He told them to heal the sick and cast out demons. Why we should expect that He has anything else in mind for us today is puzzling. True, this still pulls some traditionalists out of their comfort zones, but that just goes with the territory. One critic claimed that the NAR has excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. This is purely a judgment call, and it may only mean that we cast out more demons than they do. So what?

Relational Structures
Some of the authors I read expressed certain frustrations because they found it difficult to get their arms around the NAR. They couldn’t find a top leader or even a leadership team. There was no newsletter. The NAR didn’t have an annual meeting. There was no printed doctrinal statement or code of ethics. This was very different from dealing with traditional denominations. The reason behind this is that, whereas denominations are legal structures, the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment. Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots. They do not seek the best for themselves, but for those who choose to align with them. If the spotlight comes on them, they will accept it, but they do not seek it.

The key to this? The mutual and overriding desire that “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!”

C. Peter Wagner is the president of the Global Harvest Ministries and Chancellor of the Wagner Leadership Institute. Established in 1998, the Institute equips men and women for leadership positions in churches and translocal ministries. It is designed especially, but not exclusively, to meet the needs of leaders who have become a part of the New Apostolic reformation. Missions have been a watermark of Wagner’s career. From 1956 to 1971, he and his wife, Doris, served as missionaries in Bolivia under the South American Mission and Andes Evangelical Mission (now SIM International).

Source: Charles Peter Wagner, The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult, Charisma News, http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/31851-the-new-apostolic-reformation-is-not-a-cult, Published and edited 5:00PM, 24/08/2011. (Accessed 09/09/2015.)

John Ruffle [11/30/2015 5:34 AM]
I would call it a sect rather than a cult. Maybe the Wagnerions?

Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 6:00 AM]
It is dumb and it pushing away millons of brothers and sisters.

John Ruffle [11/30/2015 7:14 AM]
It is simply a renewed Montanism

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 7:16 AM]
The Apostolic Faith (May, 1908) http://cupandcross.com/the-apostolic-faith-may-1908/ #ourCOG #Pentecostal

Brian Fulthorp [11/30/2015 12:44 PM]
he’s self-appointed in his “apostleship.”

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 12:45 PM]
Brian Fulthorp what is the alternative?

Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 1:28 PM]
Wagner does not claim to be an Apostle. He claims there are apostles today and he is right. TL Lowery makes the same claim but no one is throwing him under the bus.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:35 PM]
I don’t agree with all of Wagoner’s ideas, but I don’t think it’s fair to call the NAR America’s Taliban.

‘Third Wave’ doesn’t mean some kind of cult. It was a term Wagoner came up with as a church growth professor to describe evangelical churches that believed in spiritual gifts, but weren’t historically a part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. Charismatics came a little earlier and were a part of the ‘mainline’ denominations initially.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:40 PM]
I think I’ve read one of Wagoner’s books, a rather dry book from the 70’s about how your spiritual gifts can help your church grow. I’ve read bits and pieces and seen a few clips, and I’ve encountered other people with apparently similar beliefs who were from this movement. I saw an interview with Wagoner about this movement, too. He wrote an academic book trying to label as a movement churches that had ‘apostles’ as leaders and various other characteristics. Some people talked to him about being the leader of this movement or a leader of this movement later on.

I don’t think the definition of ‘apostle’ is ‘He’s so anointed, he must be an apostle.’ I don’t see their role as primarily being some sort of overarching leadership for the church, serving in a role like archbishops or cardinals in the Roman Catholic Church. We don’t see apostles trying to find existing churches and talking them into letting them be the daddy to the leaders of the church.

We do see Barnabas and Saul referred to as ‘apostles’ after the Spirit to spoke to separate them to the work. They preached the Gospel from city to city. New churches were formed. I believe in the role of apostle, but in the sense that it models the Biblical role. Paul was a father in the gospel to the Corinthians, but he had actually introduced the Gospel of Christ to them. He didn’t just show up after the church had formed and meet some emotional need of theirs to have a daddy.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:41 PM]
Taliban – NO Cult – YES. Though, the talibanistic in kingdom-now and reconstruction theology is also pretty evident at a glance

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:44 PM]
I don’t know if the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’ is really an integral part of the NAR. That is one area where I am very concerned with what I’ve heard about Wagoner and the bits I’ve read. When I hears some of the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’– yelling at principalities– it reminds me of II Peter 2 and Jude 9. One thing we should learn about the passage is that we should not ‘speak evil of dignitaries.’ Jude illustrates this by giving an example of Michael not rebuking Satan with a harsh allegation before the Lord.

I don’t see any reason in the Bible to think that I can solve any problem by naming a demon or principality after the problem, and then rebuking the demon or principality. For example, if a city has a problem with murder, the Bible doesn’t give us any teaching or example of rebuking all the demons of murder out of that city. If a city has traffic jams, I don’t see any reason to think that I can create a ‘spirit of traffic jams’ to rebuke and kick out with a word just because I named it.

If I guess right and rebuke all the spirits of murder out of a city, and then we don’t evangelize the city and win people to Christ, might not those spirits come back with 7 times the reinforcements? The idea that rebuking all the spirits out of a city is a cure doesn’t have any Biblical backing, and it isn’t a logical idea. Paul did spiritual warfare with spiritual weapons, like the word of God. II Corinthians 10 talks about ‘casting down imaginations and every high thought….’ It is a battle in the realm of ideas that involves skillful use of the word of God.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:45 PM]
‘spiritual warfare’ is a VERY integral part of the NAR – most of their international churches are based on the SLSW + business networks http://youthapologeticstraining.com/strategic-level-spiritual-warfare/

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:48 PM]
Lots of Gereja Bethel Indonesia churches, which are part of the global COG denomination out of Cleveland, have embraced these ideas of ‘spiritual warfare.’ It irritated me to hear them call talking to the devil and demons ‘prayer’, in the phrase ‘spiritual warfare prayer.’ I saw a lot of this in one of the Bethany churches. I visited another GBI once that had a comic book for children where a child was being bullied. The solution at the end of the book was when the bully was attacking him, he rebuked the spirit in the bully, naming the spirits in the bully after his problems, and the guy stopped attacking him.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:50 PM]
Part?Hardly! GBI has far-reaching autonomy within CoG and is its largest national association. They also have many AG associations

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:51 PM]
GBI has AG associations? What do you mean?

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:52 PM]
On 5 February 1967 Bethel Full Gospel Church signed a contract of unification with Church of God. However, on October 6, 1970, due to disagreements among the leaders of the church, the church was again re-registered under the name Bethel Church of Indonesia. Ministry of Religious Affairs officially registered the church under writ ? 41 of December 9, 1972. So it really depends which exactly GBI churches you’re referring to.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:55 PM]
John Kissinger I’m not sure if there are any offshoots that use the name GBI, I think churches have less freedom to do so since the government requires denominations to be registered and has been known to limit the number. They use the name GBI, but COG missionaries and missions funds went there after taking the name GBI.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:56 PM]
No offhots – main stream. I dont remember the name of the guy who split over 1200 congregations, but being more during Charles Page time, may be he can recall what exactly went on then Timothy Carter

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:58 PM]
There was a split with Bethany maybe 10 years ago, over whether to use the names of their mother churches. GBI had a lot of large denominations within the larger denomination, the way it was set up, and a lot of smaller congregations that were just under the denomination.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 6:00 PM]
you may be right but this is more of Charles time to remember

John Kissinger [12/02/2015 9:22 AM]
Apostolic Relevance or a New Apostolic Reformation? http://cupandcross.com/strange-fire-not-in-a-global-pentecostal-context-of-ministry/ #ourCOG

John Kissinger [12/08/2015 9:31 AM]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2521723/posts

61 Comments

  • Reply December 29, 2017

    Anthony Lombard

    WOW! How many college/university/seminary degrees did it take to come to this obvious conclusion?

  • Reply December 29, 2017

    Johnny W. Martin

    Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. , THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

  • Reply December 29, 2017

    Micael Grenholm

    Hm. First of all, “apologetics experts”? Who are they? Second, the entire third wave? All of the Vineyard? Third, no one in NAR are claiming that experiences have more important than the Word of God, and ALL Pentecostals and charismatics claim supernatural experiences, per definition. This seems to be the same old tiresome “last vomit of satan” accusation that ignores Biblical principles for discernment.

    • Reply December 29, 2017

      Joe Met

      Here is where I have a problem with the NAR…”Extra-biblical revelation. Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.”

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Micael Grenholm

      Hi Joe! Since you’re a member of this group I assume you’re a Pentecostal? If so, what’s there to disagree with? As a Pentecostal you believe that Azusa Street was from God, right? And that the Azusa revival was prophesied beforehand, and prophecies about healing miracles were given there? That’s extra-biblical revelation defined as in the qoute you gave. I can’t see how a Pentecostal can disagree with that God can speak today and say things that aren’t written down in the Bible (without contradicting it).

  • Reply December 29, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Micael you are in Upsala right? You should remember the book Ulf Ekmann published the 90s about going to heaven and seeing things that are not in the Bible? Then he joined Catholicism as a fryer monk

    What about Pat Robertson “saw” the destruction of California that never happened? The leaders of this movement place more importance on their dreams, visions and extra-biblical revelation than on the Bible, God’s Word. They also get messages from trips to heaven, face-to-face with God and so on. The Ema angel comes to mind

    Please see the 7 mountain video series by Dan Irving for more detail explanation. The truth is out there. Now go find it!

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Micael Grenholm

      Hi Troy! Oh yes, I’ve met Ulf. I deeply disagree with him both as a word of faith preacher and now as a catholic (he isn’t a monk though). But again, how can he and Pat Robertson be lumped together with the Third Wave which the Vineyard belongs to? Word of Faith theology is extremely different to Vineyard theology.

      False prophecies have been given time and tine again in the Pentecostal movement as well. If you were a cessationist your criticism of NAR would make sense, but this is a Pentecostal group. Some of the wisest, most mature and biblically obedient Charismatics I’ve met belong to NAR cells, while some of the wackiest and most heretic Christians I’ve met are traditional Pentecostals. We should definitely talk about these problem, but it only hurts our cause to describe it as something external rather than admitting that our own movement has serious problems.

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Street Preacherz Dan Irving This was the topic I was trying to find a week ago for Ira Huth — Joe Met Micael Grenholm Left comment and abandoned discussion or still here?

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Friar Rodney Burnap

    It never happened yet…

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    These false preachers claim that how we believe is more important than what we believe. The Progressive types are getting to be just as nauseating as their conservative fundamentalist counterparts. I suspect this is the case because these progressives were once conservative fundamentalists themselves.

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Friar Rodney Burnap

    What we should be doing is the Masters Business and go and bring in Gods Harvest…the great commission is not the great suggestion.. .Hodos!

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Street Preacherz

    What’s Hodos?

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Friar do you belong to the hooders friars ?

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Not sure what you mean…I do wear a Tunic…

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      I am called to be an evangelist, to be a presence in the world. Wearing a habit allows me to stick out to draw people in need, to me, so I can witness to them…
      A habit is my distinctive garment that reminds me I need to live Holy at all times. Wearing a habit gives me a kind of accountability to the people around me. The thing that makes a habit a Holy thing is I only wear it because of my vocation. I can’t hide that I am a Friar, people seeing me know there is something different about about me… Christians that aren’t Friars don’t openly project that they are believers in the Way of Christ at first gance. We are not better then other believers we are following a different vision call . . .or calling then other ministers of the gospel…
      The longer I am a Friar, the more I know I am called to this Vocation in Jesus name. . .Hodos!
      P.S. The Sisters made me my tunics…
      I forsook all and wear a habit to help cover me up and be dressed modest… I travel by bicycle or walk mostly tent camp believing by faith for all my needs to be met …
      My vocation is to bring in God’s harvest . . .going into all the world and preaching the gospel of salvation to everyone and to make disciples teaching them how to do the same…Hodos!

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Varnel Watson

      eremitic and anchoritic?

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Neither I am a New Monastic Friar I am not a Hermit or am I cloistered in the monastery. . .I am what we call Hodos or of the Way of Christ…I travel and live by faith with what I can carry Going into all the World and Preaching salvation to everyone…and making disciples…come go with me….

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      This is my new Surly Troll…thank you Jesus…

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      Blessingz: grace and peace, faith and patience, strength and wisdom, joy and gladness, a song in the night and shout in the morning in Jesus name!

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Morning and Evening Sacrifice. . .

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      What sacrifice​? This Earth and everything in it pales before Him. lol

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      The Sacrifice is Praise and Worship in the morning and evening…there are times when I don’t want to get out of my sleeping bag…

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      But yes it’s a blessing always…I am still Crucifying my flesh…Merismos by Randy Shankle is a great book for every believer in the Way of Christ…Hodos!

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      The “Law of Sin and Death” is a spiritual expression of the Adamic nature used in (Romans 8). This Law of Sin and Death is man’s knowledge of the inner inclination that cause’s sinful man to do wrong.

      The “Flesh” is the physical expression of the Adamic nature. This is the physical act of wrong that a sinful man does in the eyes of God.

      The “Carnal Mind” is the mental expression of the Adamic nature. This is the actual thinking behind sinful man’s wrongdoing in the eyes of God.

      All the above terms are something man has knowledge of. Law brings knowledge. Knowledge brings obligation, or responsibility.

      Rom 8:2…For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

      The law of sin and death is mans knowledge of the inner, the physical, and the mental capacity of indwelling sin. Indwelling sin is not the act of sin, it’s the nature within man that causes man to sin.

      Jesus came to forgive sin and rid man of the Adamic nature. We can confess the act of sin, but Jesus has to get rid of the Adamic nature that cannot be confessed.

      The flesh nature has to die. . .what Jesus said Crucify the Flesh. . .die daily to self.

      A great book every believe in the Way of Christ should read is ” The Merismos” by Randy Shankle
      This book will change your life in Jesus name!

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Okay I won’t post for awhile…

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      Brother please it was light hearted and meant to point to Christ. His glory. That is all. Please don’t feel hindered in anyway. God bless. I think in this day and hour we need “boots on the ground” I am very interested in your efforts to bring Christ to the world. I pray God bless and keep you. Spread this good news. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      I like your Bible references

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      I have posted a lot some times others don’t like that so I was just saying …I will post again in the near future.

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      Well Monday is a new year? lol.
      Can i tag you next time I get a hot one? Nothing to deep don’t worry. What do know about what the scholars call soteriology?

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Isn’t this what a Calvinist teach you don’t make a decision it’s predestined for you ….saying a prayer of repentance doesn’t matter if your not one of God’s e·lect…I believe in Whosoever Will you make a decision and pray a prayer of repentance. .. .

      Romans 10:9-10…

      I am not a calvinist… I prayed and I asked Jesus to be the Lord of My Life. . . in prayer. 1John 1:9 (70×7) I am Sanctified I am being Sanctified and I will be Sanctified in the end. Them that endure to the end the same shall be saved. . .Matthew 24:13

      A. Admit your a sinner…and your need for a saver.

      B. Believe Jesus die for your sins…take Jesus by faith to be your Lord and Savior

      C.Confess your sins and forsake them. . .

      Whosoever Will!

      Salvation

      What is the sinner’s prayer?
      The sinners prayer is a Christian term for a prayer that is said when someone wants to repent of their sin, ask God for forgiveness and state belief in the life, death, and saving resurrection of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:9-10 says that “if you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”
      Millions have come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ through church services, friends, and family leading them in a salvation prayer. However it is not words in a prayer that save. Jesus Christ alone has the power to save through faith. J.D Greerer explains it well – “It’s not the prayer that saves; it’s the repentance and faith behind the prayer that lays hold of salvation. My concern is that over-emphasizing the prayer has often (though unintentionally) obscured the primary instruments for laying hold of salvation: repentance and faith.”
      The four examples below of the sinners prayer can help you communicate with God that you repent of your sin, accept His forgiveness, and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
      The Sinner’s Prayer (by Dr. Ray Pritchard)
      Lord Jesus, for too long I’ve kept you out of my life. I know that I am a sinner and that I cannot save myself. No longer will I close the door when I hear you knocking. By faith I gratefully receive your gift of salvation. I am ready to trust you as my Lord and Savior. Thank you, Lord Jesus, for coming to earth. I believe you are the Son of God who died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead on the third day. Thank you for bearing my sins and giving me the gift of eternal life. I believe your words are true. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus, and be my Savior. Amen.
      If you have prayed this prayer in sincere faith, you may want to put your initials by the prayer along with today’s date as a reminder that you have come to Christ in faith, trusting him as your Lord and Savior.

      Sinner’s Prayer From Scripture – (Psalm 51, King David)
      “Have mercy on me, O God,
      according to Your unfailing love;
      according to Your great compassion
      blot out my transgressions.
      Wash away all my iniquity
      and cleanse me from my sin.
      For I know my transgressions,
      and my sin is always before me.
      Against You, You only, have I sinned
      and done what is evil in Your sight,
      so that You are proved right when You speak
      and justified when You judge.
      Surely I have been a sinner from birth,
      sinful from the time my mother conceived me…
      Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
      wash me and I will be whiter than snow…
      Create in me a pure heart, O God,
      and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
      Do not cast me from Your presence
      or take Your Holy Spirit from me.
      Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
      and grant me a willing spirit to sustain me.
      Then will I teach transgressors Your ways,
      and sinners will turn back to You.
      salvation sinner prayer
      The Sinners Prayer (by John Barnett)
      The following prayer expresses the desire to transfer trust to Christ alone for eternal salvation. If its words speak of your own heart’s desire, praying them can be the link that will connect you to God.
      Dear God, I know that I am a sinner and there is nothing that I can do to save myself. I confess my complete helplessness to forgive my own sin or to work my way to heaven. At this moment I trust Christ alone as the One who bore my sin when He died on the cross. I believe that He did all that will ever be necessary for me to stand in your holy presence. I thank you that Christ was raised from the dead as a guarantee of my own resurrection. As best as I can, I now transfer my trust to Him. I am grateful that He has promised to receive me despite my many sins and failures. Father, I take you at your word. I thank you that I can face death now that you are my Savior. Thank you for the assurance that you will walk with me through the deep valley. Thank you for hearing this prayer. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      Right I read that before. I mean up to the decision. I just spent a hour with a guy I believe genuinely seeking God. We talked about the role of the conscience, the role of the law, values, guilt, sin, remorse, I even pulled out the Romans road. Nothing. Maybe tomorrow the break will come?

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      I use the Way of the Master Ray Comfort’s Law to the Proud and Grace to the Humble ….a lot. .

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Street Preacherz

      Sure there is no magic bullet.

    • Reply December 30, 2017

      Friar Rodney Burnap

      Then you just leave it in the hands of the Holy Ghost..

  • Reply December 30, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Good response Micael Grenholm we’ve discussed here before the role of prosperity theology in Pentecostalism Pat + Ulf are (were) Kingfom-now theology which derives from NAR eschatology borrowed from reformed reconstructionists and of course the social gospel of liberation theology. Ulf was very much into Wagner’s Spiritual Warfare Strategy If you knew him personally you would well know about flying shoppers over Sweden and praying prayers in full body armor and infantry weaponry And also flying over Muslim countries dropping Bibles calling them Spirit bombs

  • Reply January 1, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    bro Ira if you dont believe Dan Irving or Ify Divine Nsoha on the danger of kingdom-now theology pls review this teaching by Perry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SZFOtKONOo

    • Reply January 3, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I hope you had watched this bro Ira Straight to the point and very informative

    • Reply January 3, 2018

      Ira Huth

      Amen this was a good message Brother Stone preached. I’ve listen to it before.

    • Reply January 3, 2018

      Ira Huth

      Brother Troy Day I don’t know how many times I have to tell. I’M NOT KINGDON-NOW!!!!

    • Reply January 3, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I dont think you are kingdom-now yet the danger of that theology is tremendous along with dominion theology, NAR, etc

  • Reply October 1, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    possibly one of the great discussion we’ve had on the topic in this group Michael Ellis Carter Jr.

  • Reply October 1, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    NAR is a cult. Any revelation from these so called prophets and apostles is trash. Revelation that differs from the Bible is trash and one that agrees with the word…. what was the point of it. The people who call themselves prophets I would have to question if they read the Bible. Prophets never have an easy life and we all know what happened to the real apostles besides John.

  • Reply October 1, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Mike Partyka do you have any proof for that at all?

  • Reply October 1, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    Shawn Bolz Bill Johnson. These men are wolves in sheep clothing. Troy Day you are too well versed in the word to get sucked into this so called new movement. The prosperity gospel, NAR are cancers to the Church. The word is sufficient. Period.

  • Reply October 1, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    Troy Day and your proof, the article discusses the attacks on politicians. Well I’ll explain how it happened. A so called prophet from the NAR called Rick Perry to tell him God told them he would lead the US back to a Christian Nation. He was spot on………

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Mike Partyka I am aware of my take on the issue and what is posted here I was wondering if you have any new proof but seems like you dont – just talk again? What about a better theological take on you claims on NAR – BTW Bill denies NAR all together

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    Troy Day ?

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    Troy Day

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    You know enough to know that God does not want to be worshiped in illegitimate ways. God wants to be worshiped for who He is, for what He has done in the way He has declared. It is open season on abusing the Holy Spirit, outrageous dishonor of the Holy Spirit, claiming He is saying things and doing things and generating things that have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all. It is a reckless kind of movement. It is a shameful and dangerous sin to heap such abuse on the Holy Spirit. In fact, the idea of bringing dishonor on the Holy Spirit ought to make any thinking person tremble. People seem less interested, I think, in claiming that God is doing certain things or saying certain things or that Christ is doing things or saying certain things than they are at saying the Holy Spirit did this, the Holy Spirit said this, the Holy Spirit is producing and generating this, that there just seems to be no restraint on the things that are blamed on the Holy Spirit.

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Mike Partyka

    Troy Day test the spirits just because someone attaches “god told me this” or “the Holy Spirit did this” in no way makes it credible. It’s like the opposite of the unpardonable sin. Attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.

  • Reply October 2, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Mike Partyka you are giving words like you know what you are speaking of BUT NO proof just Why should we trust you or any other apostle and take for granted what yall say

  • So basically we are saying that God no longer speaks or use special revelation. That cant be true because each pentecostal and apostolic church has been influenced by the prophetic and word of knowledge. We cant have pastors and teachers and not have prophets. We have to accept the whole word. We cant have tongues and not have prophets. We cant decide that a former military word Apostle is no longer relevant. So Saul has a dream and we accept him as an apostle because he wrote what later became scripture? I think i may be missing the point. Every pentecostal in this group label existential experience over scripture to some degree, lets stop pretending. The basis of our theology is built upon experience. Otherwise speaking in tongues, healing, miracles etc is null and void!

  • Reply October 5, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Michael Ellis Carter Jr. God speaks but does He involve the church in world politics – is the very question here

  • Reply October 8, 2019

    Steve Losee

    He speaks to specific situations re: 1 Cor. 12-14, but He doesn’t add to Scripture.

    • Reply October 8, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      are you referring to Apostolic governance. ?

    • Reply October 8, 2019

      Steve Losee

      I’d need that term defined, but I don’t think so. I believe in the 9-fold manifestation, but it’s just a normal part of a functioning Body,and NOT ever as authoritative a Scripture.

    • Reply October 8, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Steve Losee its from the article in OP where you quoted 1 cor 12 – its the only place mentioning it I thought you read it

  • Reply October 9, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Michael Ellis Carter Jr. you went silent on this one again 🙂

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