Who did Christ come to save?

Who did Christ come to save?
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Marc Jackson Joseph D. Absher Calvin was wrong Jesus died for ALLBut Calvin and the reformers were right on penal substitutionJesus the Eternal Son of God died as the Eternal Sacrifice for all sins  – past, present and future Pelagians area dead wrong. RandalWe are not saved through our works but by the grace of God through the eternal sacrifice of Christ
Randal W Deese The Histórico church doesn’t ascribe to Pelagianism nor Calvinism… They are both erroneous Doctrine’s
Marc Jackson Calvinism is a doctrine?
Randal W Deese Penal substitution compromises the deity of Christ and puts a rift in the TrinityIf Christ died for, and is our solution to, our sins against god the Father, then what about our sins against Christ? He’s just as god as the Father is. or our sins against the Holy Spirit? With penal substitution, God is pitted against God, either dividing God (and thus destroying the Trinity) or saying that Christ isn’t fully god.
Marc Jackson So you dont see sin as legal problem for the Trinity?
Randal W Deese Troy Day Penal substitution misunderstands the word “justice”A quick perusal of the psalms and prophets will reveal that the word “justice” is usually coupled with “mercy.” Justice really means to show kindness and deliverance to the oppressed, and to right the wrongs done to them. True justice is destroying our oppressors—sin, death, and Satan—not punishing us for the sins to which we are in bondage.
Joseph D. Absher I guess they never met him
Habakkuk Giah Jesus Christ came to save me while I was lost and going to hell
Marc Jackson Randal W what you say is not exactly true. The historico church aka historical church is not concerned with many important doctrines of the Bible. One thing it is concerned with is – Sola Gratia – salvation through grace alone. Salvation is NOT possible through our works the Bible tell us. If we could have save ourselves, no need for Jesus to come, but he did – no salvation is without Jesus sacrifice and grace alone Joseph D. Absher
Randal W Deese As usual, let me exhort you to think deeper.
Randal W Deese Orthodox Christians, affirm as clearly and unambiguously as any Lutheran, for example, that “salvation is by grace” and not by our works. Unlike medieval Catholicism, Orthodoxy does not hold that a person can build up a “treasury of merits” that will count in our favor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” and the unique Way to eternal life.Orthodoxy does recognize, however, the importance of our “cooperation” with God, what we term “synergy.” “Salvation,” as we usually understand the word, is only the beginning of a pilgrimage that leads us through this life, through our physical death, and into life beyond. Salvation, accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ, means freedom from the consequences of our sinfulness: separation from the holiness and love of the God who desires only that we be saved and enter into eternal and joyful communion with himself. If we were not continually tempted to fall back into sin, there would be no need for such a “synergy.” Then we could declare, with absolute confidence, “once saved, always saved!” Temptation and spiritual struggle, however, mark every day of our life. And the way we face and, by the grace of God, overcome those forces (demonic powers), is precisely through the “spiritual warfare,” the ascetic struggle that enables us to confront those forces day by day and overcome their destructive influence.This is why, in the same letter to the Colossians, the apostle can declare: “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, the Church” (1:24). We may not suffer as Paul did, risking our very life for the gospel, enduring torture, hardship, hunger and rejection by one’s own people. Nevertheless, our small efforts, of fasting, prostrations, intense participation in long liturgical services—like almsgiving and other acts of love offered to those in need—enable us also to share in Christ’s own sufferings, which he will endure in us and for us until he comes again in glory. That participation is essential; yet it is not the means by which we are saved.
Joseph D. Absher Sometimes it takes a little dying to see the truth
Marc Jackson No one sees the truth without dying for lying…
Randal W Deese Penal substitution misunderstands the Old Testament sacrificesThe Old Testament sacrificial system was not a picture of penal substitution. God was not pouring out His wrath on the animals in place of the Israelites. He didn’t vent His righteous judgment on the animals, sending them to hell in place of the Israelites. On the contrary, they were killed honorably and as painlessly as possible. Their life (i.e. their blood) was offered to God as a sweet smelling aroma. The resulting meat was good and holy—not just worthless carrion fit for dogs and vultures. Such is also the case with Christ’s sacrifice: it is a holy offering of blood to the Father, not a means whereby God can vent His wrath.
Randal W Deese Penal substitution misunderstands the word “propitiation”Propitiation should not be thought of in the classical pagan sense, as if our god were some angry deity who needed appeasing and could only be satisfied through a penal sacrifice. It’s really quite different. Propitiation (Greek hilasterion) is also translated “mercy seat.” The mercy seat covered the ark of the covenant, which contained a copy of the ten commandments—the law. While the law cried out against us and demanded perfection and showed us our shortcomings, the mercy seat covered those demands and our failure to live up to them. Was the mercy seat punished for our sins? of course not. Likewise, Christ’s blood was not the punishment demanded by justice, but rather the ultimate mercy seat, covering and forgiving our sins. This is why “propitiation” is sometimes more accurately translated as “expiation” in some versions of the Bible. (“expiation” implies the removal of our sins, while “propitiation” implies appeasing an angry deity.)
Marc Jackson Randal W Deese Does your last long comment consider purgatory or it just sounds like that to me at a first read?
Randal W Deese Orthodox don’t believe in the Doctrine of Purgatory
Marc Jackson What exactly are you saying then? Universalism ?
Randal W Deese You seem to be very uninformed about orthodoxy… Then, on top of that, you don’t read from Orthodox people what they teach or believe, so you’re very biased
Marc Jackson No need to attack my knowledge or person. Just answer the question and stick to the topic. What do you gain from ad hominem?
Randal W Deese Troy Day You need to practice what you preach… You do it quite often yourself
Marc Jackson Authentic salvation can come when a person doesn’t just realize what He did FOR them, but what He did BECAUSE of them. ~ Ed Brewer

 

37 Comments

  • Troy Day
    Reply September 12, 2018

    Troy Day

    ONE for ALL
    saved
    ONE and ALL

  • Troy Day
    Reply September 13, 2018

    Troy Day

    Walter Wallace Isaac Coverstone I foresee you two being quite the Calvinists

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 6, 2018

    Troy Day

    EVERYONE?

  • David Grooms
    Reply December 6, 2018

    David Grooms

    The lost only

  • Larry Dale Steele
    Reply December 6, 2018

    Larry Dale Steele

    Whosoever will

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 6, 2018

    Troy Day

    we were ALL lost – so does this mean ALL?

  • Jeanette Elizondo
    Reply December 6, 2018

    Jeanette Elizondo

    Who so ever will come !!!

  • Adon Kabasala
    Reply December 7, 2018

    Adon Kabasala

    Automatically me!!!!!

  • Jared Cheshire
    Reply December 8, 2018

    Jared Cheshire

    He came to seek and to save “those who were lost”, or “that which was lost”? If it is a “that” and not a “who”, what was “that”, who lost it, how did they lose it, and how did He get it back?

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 8, 2018

    Troy Day

    Jared Cheshire would that include ALL lost or just the pre elect?

    • Jared Cheshire
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Jared Cheshire

      Troy Day I don’t see anything about pre elect in the Bible. My point here is the scripture says “that which was lost” not who. The who becomes whosoever will.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      Some claim Rom 1, Eph 1 and so on where the word pre-elect is actually used. What about post-elect? like already saved but still needs to be water baptized?

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Isara Mo

      He came to save ” whoever believes in Him” not ALL PEOPLE OR EVERYONE OR A CERTAIN TRIBE OR NATION…
      ONLY those who believe in Him.

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Isara Mo

      John 3:16 says God so loved the world(I believe it is the whole world) and gave His only begotten Son so that WHOEVER BELIEVES shall not perish…
      The word “whoever believes” is selective not all inclusive..

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day pre elect?

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      what not clear @isara mo?

    • Jared Cheshire
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Jared Cheshire

      I see predestination not pre elect. Predestination is a forethought plan, it does not mean you have no choice but to follow the plan. There are so very many that choose to ignore that plan. Pre elect would be pre chosen. I don’t see that in that context.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The greek word for chose-before is namely fore-chosen or pre-elect

    • Jared Cheshire
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Jared Cheshire

      What context are you using that “choose”? I have heard it explained different ways.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      I am not using it Actually the ap Paul is 🙂

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day Pre elect(pre chosen) notion justifies the doctrine of foreknowledge of Adams sin and Lucifers fall: ALL WAS PROGRAMMED PRIOR to creation so that God could get his PRE CHOSEN ONES…for how else could He get them from the flock except by having Satan fall….and then Adam fall so that the WHOLE HUMANITY fall so that there was a REASON to get the few among the many…..no wonder we call it grace…for.it is not by self effort but by Gods pre determined plan …
      And if that is the truth(the pre chosen) theory, then God has no business to get angry, to be WRATHFUL…to demand a His sons blood to be appeased…(????)for He knew before the creation of the world that He has purposely planned it all…

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Troy Day

      not what Ephesians 1:4 says now is it?

    • Jared Cheshire
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Jared Cheshire

      Troy Day Ok a rephrase, what context do believe the apostle Paul was using it?

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 8, 2018

    Troy Day

    Calvin was wrong Jesus died for ALLBut Calvin and the reformers were right on penal substitutionJesus the Eternal Son of God died as the Eternal Sacrifice for all sins – past, present and future Pelagians area dead wrong. RandalWe are not saved through our works but by the grace of God through the eternal sacrifice of Christ

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day I agree

    • Isara Mo
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day Nevertheless, if they were wrong on one doctrine don’t you think they were also wrong on penal substitution..
      I read somewhere that the penal substitution theory is also a heresy…

  • Joe Absher
    Reply December 9, 2018

    Joe Absher

    “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
    – John 1:12

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 9, 2018

    Troy Day

    @isara mo can you define penal substitution? I’ve heard WAY too many definitions I believe one from Link too

    • Link Hudson
      Reply December 9, 2018

      Link Hudson

      I do not recall that conversation.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 10, 2018

      Troy Day

      I wouldnt have expected anything else

    • Link Hudson
      Reply December 10, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day you may also be confusing posters. I have been on here for years.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 10, 2018

      Troy Day

      Naah When was the last time I was wrong on posters?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply December 10, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day Probably yesterday. I might have commented on a penal substitution thread, but it is highly unlike that I wrote something along the lines of ‘this is the definition of penal substitution.’ I’m pretty sure you have the wrong poster in mind or the details confused.

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply December 9, 2018

    Louise Cummings

    He came to seek that which was lost. ?
    (Matthew 28:11.

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