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Pentecostalism: William Seymour
William Joseph Seymour was born in Centerville, Louisiana, on May 2, 1870 to former slaves Simon and Phyllis Seymour. Raised as a Baptist, Seymour was given to dreams and visions as a youth. At age 25, he moved to Indianapolis, where he worked as a railroad porter and then waited on tables in a fashionable restaurant. Around this time, he contracted smallpox and went blind in his left eye.
In 1900 he relocated to Cincinnati, where he joined the “reformation” Church of God (headquartered in Anderson, Indiana), also known as “the Evening Light Saints.” Here he became steeped in radical Holiness theology, which taught second blessing entire sanctification (i.e., sanctification is a post-conversion experience that results in complete holiness), divine healing, premillennialism, and the promise of a worldwide Holy Spirit revival before the rapture.
In 1903 Seymour moved to Houston, Texas, in search of his family. There he joined a small Holiness church pastored by a black woman, Lucy Farrow, who soon put him touch with Charles Fox Parham. Parham was a Holiness teacher under whose ministry a student had spoken in tongues (glossolalia) two years earlier. For Parham, this was the “Bible evidence” of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. When he established a Bible school to train disciples in his “Apostolic Faith” in Houston, Farrow urged Seymour to attend.
Since Texas law forbade blacks to sit in classrooms with whites, Parham encouraged Seymour to remain in a hallway and listen to his lectures through the doorway. Here Seymour accepted Parham’s premise of a “third blessing” baptism in the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues. Though Seymour had not yet personally experienced tongues, he sometimes preached this message with Parham in Houston churches.
In early 1906, Seymour was invited to help Julia Hutchins pastor a Holiness church in Los Angeles. With Parham’s support, Seymour journeyed to California, where he preached the new Pentecostal doctrine using Acts 2:4 as his text. Hutchins, however, rejected Seymour’s teaching on tongues and padlocked the door to him and his message.
Seymour was then invited to stay in the home of Richard Asberry at 214 Bonnie Brae Street, where on April 9, after a month of intense prayer and fasting, Seymour and several others spoke in tongues. Word spread quickly about the strange events on Bonnie Brae Street and drew so much attention that Seymour was forced to preach on the front porch to crowds gathered in the street. At one point, the jostling crowd grew so large the porch floor caved in.
Seymour searched Los Angeles for a suitable building. What he found was an old abandoned African Methodist Episcopal church on Azusa Street that had recently been used as a warehouse and stable. Although it was a shambles, Seymour and his small band of black washerwomen, maids, and laborers cleaned the building, set up board plank seats, and made a pulpit out of old shoebox shipping crates. Services began in mid-April in the church, which was named the “Apostolic Faith Mission.”
What happened at Azusa Street during the next three years was to change the course of church history. Although the little frame building measured only 40 by 60 feet, as many as 600 persons jammed inside while hundreds more looked in through the windows. The central attraction was tongues, with the addition of traditional black worship styles that included shouting, trances, and the holy dance. There was no order of service, since “the Holy Ghost was in control.” No offerings were taken, although a box hung on the wall proclaimed, “Settle with the Lord.” Altar workers enthusiastically prayed seekers through to the coveted tongues experience. It was a noisy place, and services lasted into the night.
Though local newspaper coverage spoke cynically about the “weird babble of tongues” of “colored mammys,” on street corners and trolley cars, the news intrigued the city. Whole congregations came en masse to Azusa Street and stayed while their former churches disappeared. Other Pentecostal centers soon sprang up around town.
Reporting on all this was Frank Bartleman, an itinerant Holiness preacher and rescue mission worker, who wrote to the Way of Faith in South Carolina that “Pentecost has come to Los Angeles, the American Jerusalem.” His reports, which were printed and reprinted in the Holiness press, spread a contagious fever of curiosity about the Azusa Street meetings all across the country.
n September, Seymour began publishing his own paper titled The Apostolic Faith. At its height, it went free to some 50,000 subscribers around the world.
Though many came to mock and scorn, many others heard messages in known earthly languages uttered by uneducated blacks and whites that convinced them of the reality of the revival. Soon whites made up the majority of members and visitors, and black hands were laid on white heads to receive the new tongues experience. Soon an avalanche of “Azusa Pilgrims” descended on the mission to receive what were thought to be “missionary tongues,” which would enable preachers to go to the far corners of the world proclaiming the gospel in languages they had never learned.
“Don’t go out of here talking about tongues; talk about Jesus.” —William Seymour
A list of Azusa pilgrims reads like a hall of fame for the new order of Pentecostal priests. From North Carolina came Gaston B. Cashwell, who later spread the Pentecostal message to the southern Holiness churches. From Memphis came Charles Mason who returned to lead the Church of God in Christ into the Pentecostal fold (now the largest black Pentecostal denomination in America). From Chicago came William Durham, who later formulated the “Finished Work” theology that gave birth to the Assemblies of God in 1914.
To Seymour, tongues was not the only message of Azusa Street: “Don’t go out of here talking about tongues: talk about Jesus,” he admonished. Another message was that of racial reconciliation. Blacks and whites worked together in apparent harmony under the direction of a black pastor, a marvel in the days of Jim Crow segregation. This led Bartleman to exult, “At Azusa Street, the color line was washed away in the Blood.” Seymour dreamed that Azusa Street was creating a new kind of church, one where a common experience in the Holy Spirit tore down old walls of racial, ethnic, and denominational differences.
Seymour’s dream was rudely shattered even before the “glory days at Old Azusa” came to an end. When his mentor Charles Parham visited Azusa Street in October of 1906, Parham was appalled at what he called “darky camp meeting stunts” and “fits and spasms of spiritualists” who invaded the meetings. Although Seymour recognized him the “projector” of the movement, the Azusa Street elders rejected Parham. For the rest of his life, Parham denounced the Azusa Street meetings as “spiritual power prostituted.”
Perhaps the most damaging challenge to Seymour came in 1909 when white female co-workers Florence Crawford and Clara Lum moved to Portland, Oregon, carrying with them the mailing list for The Apostolic Faith magazine. This cut off Seymour from his followers and effectively ended his leadership of the emerging movement.
Rumors circulated in the black community that Crawford may have left in a fit of jealousy. It was said that she had wanted to marry Seymour but was discouraged from doing so by C. H. Mason because the world was not prepared for interracial marriages. When Seymour decided to marry Jennie Moore, a black leader at Azusa Street, Crawford opposed it “because of the shortness of time before the rapture of the church.”
After the “glory years” of 1906 to 1909, the Azusa Street mission became a small black church pastored by Seymour until his death on September 28, 1922, and then by his wife, Jennie, until her death in 1936. It was later sold for unpaid taxes and demolished. Today, a Japanese Cultural Center occupies the ground. By the year 2000, the spiritual heirs of Seymour, the Pentecostals and charismatics, numbered over 500 million adherents, making it the second largest family of Christians in the world.
Today, practically all Pentecostal and charismatic movements can trace their roots directly or indirectly to the humble mission on Azusa Street and its pastor.
Vinson Synan, dean of the School of Divinity at Regent University, is author of The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition (Eerdmans, 1997).
Timeline
1867 National Holiness Association forms
1870 William Seymour born in Louisiana
1901 Agnes Ozman speaks in tongues under Charles Parham’s ministry in Topeka, Kansas
1905 Seymour accepts Parham’s Pentecostal doctrine in Houston
1906 At the house on Bonnie Brae Street, Los Angeles, Seymour speaks in tongues for the first time
1906-1909 Azusa Street revival
1907 G. B. Cashwell brings Pentecostal fervor to churches in the South
1908 Seymour marries Jennie Moore; the next year, Florence Crawford departs Azusa Street with the mailing list of The Apostolic Faith
1914 The Assemblies of God forms
1922 Seymour dies; his wife takes over leadership of the Azusa Street Mission
1943 American Pentecostal churches become charter members of the National Association of Evangelicals
1960 Episcopal priest Dennis Bennett speaks in tongues, inaugurating the charismatic movement
You Are There
Excerpt from a news story by a dismayed reporter of the Los Angeles Daily Times, April 18, 1906:
An old colored exhorter [Seymour], blind in one eye, is the major-domo of the company. With his stony optic fixed on some luckless unbeliever, yells his defiance and challenges an answer. Anathemas are heaped upon him who shall dare to gainsay the utterances of the preacher. Clasped in his big fist, the colored brother holds a miniature Bible from which he reads at intervals one or two words—never more.
After an hour spent in exhortation, the brethren present are invited to join in a “meeting of prayer and testimony.” Then it is that pandemonium breaks loose, and the bounds of reason are passed by those who are “filled with the Spirit,” whatever that may be.
“You-oo-po goo-ioo-ioo come under the bloo-oo-oo-boo-ido,” shouts an old colored “mammy” in a frenzy of religious zeal. Swinging her arms wildly about her she continues with the strangest harangue ever uttered. Few of her words are intelligible, and for the most part, her testimony contains the most outrageous jumble of syllables, which are listened to with awe by the company.
For more information on this topic, see:
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams Is this what we were discussing with you awhile back?
Stephen Williams
Not sure…
Jim Daniel
False. There were two outpourings before Azuza Street. The first was during the 1880s or 1890s in the mountains around Murphy, N.C. that led to the formation of the Church of God denomination from Cleveland, TN. After that, there was an outpouring in the Kansas City area at a Bible college.
The roots may go back further than that, however. The Cane Creek revival in Kentucky that led to the present day Independent Christian Churches (Stone-Campbell or Restoration Movement) involved some behaviors that seem to possibly ve connected to manifestations of the Holy Spirit along with some practices that were clearly very much flesh and emotion. They play down the possibilty of it being connected with any sort of spiritual ecstatcies because their official position now is that of cessationism. That was as far back as the first decade of the 1800s.
Varnel Watson
Jim Daniel Are you saying Vinson Synan should have include Murphy, N.C? I think it was Link Hudson who also mentioned the Russian molokans who spoke in tongues long before getting to the Azusa revival
Jim Daniel
Those are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a trail leading all the way back to the apostles and early church of believers who operated in the gifts of the spirit including the gift of tongues.
There was a group of believers during the 2nd century AD in the region of France and Spain called the Montanists, (I think that is the correct spelling) who were strong proponents of the use of the gifts of prophecy and tongues, especially through their leadership. They were all but eradicated by the Roman Catholics as heretics. The Catholics then seem to have destroyed anything that they may have written and quite possibly slandered them to justify the actions of the church.
Fr. Timothy Cremeens, PhD
The Montanists were not “eradicated” by the Roman Catholics, neither were they considered heretics BECAUSE they spoke in tongues or prophesied. Rather they were considered heretical because 1) they believed their prophetic utterances were superior to the writings of the NT, 2) they believed that Jesus would return again to Pompusa in Phrygia NOT to Jerusalem 3) that Montanus was an incarnation of the Holy Spirit and 4) when they spoke in tongues and prophesied they did so in a frenzied manner like the pagans and not like the Orthodox Catholic Church Christians who did so in a decent and orderly manner.
Varnel Watson
We’ve discussed before Speaking in Tongues in America Prior to the Azusa Street http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/speaking-in-tongues-in-america-prior-to-the-azusa-street-ourcog/
Jim Daniel
That was the Montanists of the 2nd century.
Jim Daniel
Also, there was indications that the early Quakers spoke in tongues.
Jim Daniel
Also, it was Cane Ridge, not Cane Creek. I apologize, Cane Creek is a falls in north Georgia and I keep mixing the two.
Varnel Watson
Yes also discussed http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/1796-the-foundation-of-the-great-cane-ridge-revival-of-logan-county-kentucky/
Link Hudson
Gottfried Sommer believes several movements merged. There was speaking in tongues among Methodist-type movements in South America and India that started about the same time as the Azusa Street revival.
There were also some Presbyterians in England in the 1800’s. That turned into something highly liturgical, and kind of like the NAR in some ways, but with 12 Gentile so-called ‘apostles’.
Larry Ray Talley
You gentlemen show a genius for Pentecostal history!! I wish I were younger, I would love to study your findings and maybe work on a comprehensive manual tying them all together. The research would be a challenging and thouroughally enjoyable exercise!!!!!
Varnel Watson
Yet A. J. TOMLINSON did not SPEAKING IN TONGUES until 1907 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/a-j-tomlinson-speaking-in-tongues-in-1907-church-of-god-of-prophecy-cleveland-tn/
Stephen Williams
Revival under Count Zinzendorf in 1727. Speaking in tongues occurred there. And tongues in Edward Irving’s church 1830.
Stephen Williams
But the unique mixture that emerged as Pentecostalism has Wesleyan roots (see Dayton), emphasized the “full gospel”, experiential spirituality and a strong premillennial eschatological thrust.
Varnel Watson
Zinzendorf 1727 was never proven was it?
Stephen Williams
Let me check my references.
Stephen Williams
See William DeArteaga, Quenching the Spirit p. 383; Van Johnson, Master’s Pentecostal Seminary, Matrix of Pentecostalism, Lecture Notes, 2014, p. 3.
Stephen Williams
Also see Richard Hogue, Tongues: A Theological History of Glossolalia, p. 193.
Varnel Watson
Dr. William DeArteaga us a frequent poster in this group and perhaps can shed some light personally on the Moravians – namely did they conenct speaking in tongues to the Holy Spirit Baptism in 1727?
Stephen Williams
Aren’t we talking about roots? They wouldn’t have been connecting tongues to HSB. Not on the radar.
William DeArteaga
Troy Day I read a litle on the Moravians in regard to their influence on the Wesleys, but never ran into thier speaking in tongues. That is possible, but I did not go into their literature deeply.
Varnel Watson
I agree. There you have it Stephen Williams Possible but never stated explicitly. Much like Irving and then the Great Cane Ridge Revival of Logan County, Kentucky – tongues were there but were they connected to HSB ??? Link Hudson http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/1796-the-foundation-of-the-great-cane-ridge-revival-of-logan-county-kentucky/
Joe Thomas
Read Joseph L. Thomas, “Perfect Harmony: Interracialism in Early Holiness-Pentecostalism, 1880-1907” to read the interracial story of this movement.
Stephen Williams
No, not HSB, but according to McGee, Zinzendorf believed tongues to be connected to the missionary effort.
Stephen Williams
Further, McGee, on page 99, citing A.J. Lewis, writes, “On one occasion, participants were ‘baptized by the Holy Spirit to one love”…and on page 32, states that famous Moravian preacher John Cennick spoke of the Spirit’s baptism “without which all other baptisms are but faint shadows” from a sermon in 1740.
Link Hudson
The New Charismatics II mentions speaking in tongues at a Methodist revival near the University of Georgia in 1901..
Vernon Soles
No.
Stephen Williams
“In 1722, the Moravian refugees established a new village called Herrnhut, about 2 miles from Berthelsdorf. The town initially grew steadily, but major religious disagreements emerged and by 1727 the community was divided into warring factions. Zinzendorf used a combination of feudal authority and his charismatic personality to restore a semblance of unity, then on August 13th, 1727 the community underwent a dramatic transformation when the inhabitants of Herrnhut “Learned to love one another.” following an experience which they attributed to a visitation of the Holy Spirit, similar to that recorded in the Bible on the day of Pentecost. It is said that the great revival at Herrnhut was accompanied by prophecies, visions, glossolalia (Speaking in tongues), and healings.” – Moravian Moment #129–The Moravian Pentecost http://moravians.net/joomla/about-us/34-moravian-moments/231-moravian-moment-129
Varnel Watson
Moravians were evangelical, missional and revivalists but speaking in tongues was never established. It is said that Herrnhut was accompanied glossolalia but I very strongly doubt they even connected speaking in tongues to the HSB in 1727. There is just not enough theological support for such doctrine out there for the period. If you know any others 1720s sources I wold love to examine them
Stephen Williams
Aren’t we talking about roots or antecedents?
Varnel Watson
OP is about the last sentence in the article: All Pentecostal trace roots to Azusa… What Pentecostal movement came out of the Moravians?
Stephen Williams
Moravians influenced Wesley- Wesley the Pent movement
Varnel Watson
Jim Daniel Did they connect tongues to HSB at Murphy?
Link Hudson
The first I’ve read of the ‘initial evidence doctrine’ in history was probably with Irving in the 1800’s
Stephen Williams
Tongues were the ‘standing sign’- Irving. Synan, Century of the Holy Spirit, pp. 22-25.
Varnel Watson
Does this contradict the article above? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/true-or-false-all-pentecostal-trace-roots-to-azusa-by-dr-vinson-synan/
Jim Daniel
It is my understanding that the outpouring at Murphy began with a group of believers seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tn.) has held the position that tongues is the initial evidence from their very beginning as a denomination and they came directly from that revival.
Interesting sidebar: While most of the church goes out of its way to deny that speaking in tongues is necessary to identify the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, I know of two published New Testament scholars with Ph. D.s that have said that the sign that they were looking for in Acts 8 in Samaria was speaking in tongues. That would make it unanimous that every time there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts, someone spoke in tongues. And these were not Pentecostal or Charismatics, so their opinions would not be seen by the world as biased. Unfortunately, neither one was willing to make that final step in receiving the fullness of God’s blessing.
Stephen Williams
It’s just that the Azusa narrative became the dominant one.
Jim Daniel
Azuza got all the press.
Stephen Williams
Exactly!
Varnel Watson
Link We’ve discussed before Speaking in Tongues in America Prior to the Azusa Street. Irvin did not quite make the list – scholarly source for your claim pls! Also if Jim Daniel has a source for connecting they tongues to HSB at Murphy will be helpful http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/speaking-in-tongues-in-america-prior-to-the-azusa-street-ourcog/
January 1, 1901– The initial phenomenon of speaking in tongues occurred at Parham’s school in Topeka, Kansas
January 6, 1900 – Frank Sanford’s Shiloh school reported that “The gift of tongues has descended”
1896 – Over 100 people baptized in the Shaerer schoolhouse revival conducted by the Christian Union in the North Carolina mountains
1887 – People falling in trances and speaking in tongues were reported at Maria Etter’s revival meetings in Indiana
1874 – Speaking in tongues occurred during healing meetings reported in New York
1873 – William H. Doughty and the Gift People of Rhode Island spoke in tongues
1854 – V. P. Simmons and Robert Boyd reported tongue speaking during Moody’s meetings
Link Hudson
Try Edward Irving on Wikipedia first. (UK) I’m sure you could find a scholarly source over there since you probably have more access to those kinds of books where you are than where I am. I could use Google scholar, but you could do that as well.
Link Hudson
Troy Day, Edward Irving from the 1800’s was in England. Have you read about that? The movement was called the Catholic Apostolic Church after he died? THey appointed 12 so-called ‘apostles’ who they did not replace, and the movement died out. There is a splinter group in Germany.
Stephen Williams
Irving’s Christology was Lucan as well. Very Pentecostal-like.
Link Hudson
Stephen Williams What are the characteristics of Lucan Christology. Irving believed Christ did His miracles through the power of the Spirit rather than through His deity. He was accused of saying ‘Christ’s sinful flesh’ and he lost his ordination for the Presbyterian church over this. I think it was Drummond who asked him where his authority came to baptize after he lost his ordination (weird thinking IMO.) They ended up reorganizing under Drummond and others who they considered apostles.
Link Hudson
After he died, the movement went really liturgical. Their aristocratic ‘apostles’ went around Europe and brought back aspects of liturgy. They divided up Europe by characteristics they thought matched tribes of Israel– strange from my perspective. They believed in apostles laying hands on people to ‘seal’ them. They’d lay hands on Anglican ministers and Roman Catholic priests to put their blessing on them. Drummond promoted the idea that apostles– himself and other– were necessary for the unity of the church. That kind of reminds me of NAR, but it was different in a lot of other ways.
When it started off, though, it seemed a bit more like a kind of Pentecostal or Charismatic movement. More Charismatic I guess since it happened in a Presbyterian church that believed in infant baptism.
Stephen Williams
Through the power of the Spirit…
Link Hudson
Stephen Williams I agree the Gospels show that He did miracles through the power of the Spirit. I think Pentecostals have a valid point on this. I don’t know if Irving tooks his teaching a bit too far or not.
Stephen Williams
Yeah, likely did. But definitely possessed a Spirit Christology.
Link Hudson
The splinter group isn’t Pentecostal or Charismatic the way we’d think of it. They just call their leaders apostles. They don’t do sermon prep. They use the apocrypha. That’s the splinter group.
Varnel Watson
Link What’s your point on Irving – source for their speaking in tongues connected to HSB?
Link Hudson
From Irvings ‘The Day of Pentecost, or the Baptism of the Holy Ghost’
“I have had fully in my mind-namely, for preventing the church from falling into despair upon the discovery that she possesseth not the baptism with the Holy Ghost, whose standing sign, if we err not, is the speaking with tongues (Irving 28).”
as quoted in,
https://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/49/
Link Hudson
Irving may have been the first person in history to believe in the classical Pentecostal initial evidence doctrine.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson This is old school interpretation. Have you read the many more who say old landmarkists were and are still are clueless about the Biblical HS baptism. Are you taking “standing sign” as initial evidence or you disregard the whole initial evidence doctrine? Also do you make difference between initial evidence and the gift of speaking in tongues?
Stephen Williams
Troy, initial evidence was Parham’s way of articulating it. Irving’s was standing sign, both are not biblical, but ways to articulate a biblical idea. How we articulate is not infallible.
Link Hudson
What is old school interpretation? I don’t know what you mean by ‘standing sign’ Landmark Baptists? What do they have to do with Irving? He was a Prebyterian in England.
Varnel Watson
You cited ‘standing sign’ above so I am asking you if you understand “standing sign” as initial evidence of HSB? You should also read pg 64ff about sign and gift (since you brought is as a source in the discussion) https://archive.org/stream/daypentecostorb00irvigoog#page/n117/mode/2up/search/tongues
Link Hudson
Troy Day So you mean did Irving mean the same thing by ‘standing sign’ as the Pentecostal movement would mean with the term ‘initial evidence.’ That’s how I took it.
Varnel Watson
I mean have you actually read the whole book like p64ff? Does this even sound like BHS and initial evidence to you?
Link Hudson
Troy Day, I have not read that whole book. I was going to tell you that I read in a biography about him many years ago that he believed that tongues was the sign of being baptized with the Holy Ghost. But I decided to do a web search to see if I could find a quote instead, and I posted that. I haven’t read Irving’s book.
Varnel Watson
I think you may have a point there. With old school interpretation above I was referring to old landmarkists aka bapticostal
Link Hudson
Who are you calling Bapticostals?
Varnel Watson
For the 3rd time “old landmarkists aka bapticostal”
Link Hudson
I dont’ get it
Link Hudson
whre does the ‘costal part come in?
Link Hudson
How are Landmark Baptist Pentecostal?
James Guthrie
Don’t forget the Sunderland conference under AA Bossy and the Keswick Movement both in England
Fr. Timothy Cremeens, PhD
A.A. Boddy, not Bossy, who was an Anglican priest to his dying day!
Stephen Williams
PAOC- “Azusa is not the birthplace of the PAOC! Stop perpetuating the myth. Ottawa Valley – McAlister via Horner. Montreal – Baker who came from Ottawa. Toronto – Hebden Mission and Keswick. Winnipeg – Argue, Methodists and Durham in Chicago. And the Canadian who went to Azusa was McAlister and that was after he already knew about speaking in tongues from Horner in the Ottawa Valley.” -Dr. Michael Wilkinson
Stephen Williams
So in short, Canada has a distinct narrative.
Gottfried Sommer
Von Below (noble family in Pomerania) revival started 1820, known for singing in tongues, Lars Levi Laestadius (1830) Finnland, the Laestadius still do speak in tongues. Even in the revival lead by Paavo Ruotsasleinen, speak Ing in tongues was known.
Mukti revival in India was before Azusa Street, influenced the Chilenian revival under Hoover.
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams Which myth do you mean here? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/true-or-false-all-pentecostal-trace-roots-to-azusa-by-dr-vinson-synan/
Stephen Williams
That the birthplace of the PAOC was Azusa.
Varnel Watson
The article states “Today, practically all Pentecostal and charismatic movements can trace their roots directly or indirectly to the humble mission on Azusa Street and its pastor.” PAOC did not start until 1919 so in most probability is directly or indirectly connected right?
Stephen Williams
Not according to Canadian scholars, eg. Wilkinson.
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams The origin of Pentecostalism is widely considered the 1906 Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles, California. Within months of the outbreak of revival at Azusa Street, Pentecostalism had reached Canada, and by 1910, there were Canadian Pentecostals on both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts, with sizable congregations in Toronto, Ontario, and Winnipeg, Manitoba. A majority of Pentecostals were found in the prairie provinces due in part to the large numbers of United States immigrants who brought their faith with them. Because of these influences, Canadian Pentecostals maintained close ties to their American counterparts Source: The Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada”. The New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements. Rev. ed. Edited by Stanley M. Burgess and Eduard M. van der Mass. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 2003
Stephen Williams
Have you read the Cambridge Companion to Pentecostalism? Have you read Anderson? The Azusa narrative became dominant not because it was THE origin of the movement but because it became the most publicized and popular centre.
Varnel Watson
Yes I have read them. Pls cite a source for your PAOC claim
Stephen Williams
I did. Michael Wilkinson is a PAOC scholar. I quoted him directly.
Stephen Williams
Canadian Pentecostalism and Winds from the North- both by Wilkinson.
Stephen Williams
Have you read the Wilkinson books? Or William Sloos’ article in Pneuma tracing the origins of the Hebden Mission back to Keswick Holiness in England. The facts are here in the North is that Pentecostalism emerged separately from Azusa. Ellen Hebden’s experience of Spirit Baptism cannot be traced to Azusa Street anymore than can Agnes Ozman’s.
Varnel Watson
Yes – as answered before. Keswick Holiness is one very limited stream and some do not recognize it as true Pentecostal because of the Calvinist element in it. I also mentioned the Molokans and other international groups. But none of this really proves the Canadian theory does it? Pls see my last comment here https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1264883633566649/?comment_id=1266671826721163&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D
Stephen Williams
If you would like more light shed on the subject, you could always chat with Wilkinson. Send him a private message.
Stephen Williams
So, would you say that Durham, the AG, PAOC, or any other ” Pentecostal” group that are not Wesleyan-Holiness are not to be recognized as true Pentecostal?
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams Guess we need to examine them when there is more time. So far the Irving, Zinzendorf and the Moravian could not be proven. I suspect the Murphy case cited by Jim Daniel is a bit shaky as well…
Stephen Williams
Did you see my post about Zinzendorf? McGee states there was tongues there
Varnel Watson
Yes you also cited William DeArteaga who stated clearly his position
Stephen Williams
Right here
Stephen Williams
Further, McGee, on page 99, citing A.J. Lewis, writes, “On one occasion, participants were ‘baptized by the Holy Spirit to one love”…and on page 32, states that famous Moravian preacher John Cennick spoke of the Spirit’s baptism “without which all other baptisms are but faint shadows” from a sermon in 1740.
Stephen Williams
Zinzendorf not out yet
Stephen Williams
Troy Day, what do you make of McGee stating that tongues occurred spontaneously during Moravian meetings!
Link Hudson
What about Irving cannot be proven? I provided a quote about his beliefs. But I can’t find a historical link between his group and the Pentecostal movement.
Stephen Williams
Yeah, I don’t know what Troy is talking about.
Jim Price
I have been under the impression that the Monroe County holiness group had the experience of speaking in tongues ( from which sprang the Church of God ) around 1890.
Varnel Watson
As asked Jim Daniel about Murphy / Monroe – no doubt they may have spoken in tongues but did they connect speaking in tongues to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. In other words did they explicitly understood and stated – we speak in tongues as initial evidence our receiving of the Holy Spirit. And even more importantly – is there an explicit documented source (not later on historical here-say) that proves both their claim and experience ????
Paul Hughes
My grandfather was exposed to Pentecostals being sent out of Houston into East Texas, as early as 1910, no doubt associated with the Charles Parham group (which had sent out Seymour to Los Angeles earlier).
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams The main thing is still the main thing – they may have spoken in tongues but did they connect speaking in tongues to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. In other words did they explicitly understood and stated – we speak in tongues as initial evidence our receiving of the Holy Spirit. And even more importantly – is there an explicit documented source (not later on historical here-say) that proves both their claim and experience ????
Stephen Williams
Likely not, due to the fact that they were not looking for “initial evidence” for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was were the likes of Parham. I am sure you are well aware that Palmer equated HSB with santification where as Oberlin and Keswick groups associated it with power for service. So, who was right, and how do you know you got it?
Charles Parham formulated initial evidence in the context of a “fundamentalist-like religious culture searching for rational responses” (Robeck)
Varnel Watson
There you go – and my point exactly. BTW you posted a partial page above, I was interested to read the whole page and 2-3 after if possible to post. Seemed like good history
Stephen Williams
I bought the book for a seminary course. Good resource.
Stephen Williams
Troy Day, McGee traces many precursors to Pentecostalism, but I think that initial evidence is a debated topic at the moment. For clarification, that’s how I knew I received it, so I am good with it!
Stephen Williams
One of my professors, thinks that Pentecostalism is more than a list of “ingredients” ( eg. HSB, spiritual gifts, Jesus is our Saviour, Healer etc etc) but it is how those ingredients are mixed and “baked”! In other words, when listing characteristics in front of a CMA student, the student didn’t see much difference. So, not just ingredients, but how they are baked!
John Duncan
Even Cashwell visited Azusa then went to Dunn, NC to bring Pentecost to the Southeast. I have never heard the “initial evidence” doctrine came from anywhere else – directly or indirectly.
Varnel Watson
Cashwel preached what he saw, heard and already in LA – which was the purpose of his trip http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostal-apostle-to-the-south-gb-cashwell-and-the-dunn-north-carolina-revival-of-1906/
Varnel Watson
Stephen Williams The only one with doctrinal affirmation baptism with Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues before Azusa (that I have found clearly documented) Frank Sanford and his Shiloh school which was visited by both Parham and AJ Tomlinson before they experienced speaking in tongues
January 6, 1900 – Frank Sanford’s Shiloh school reported that “The gift of tongues has descended”
January 1, 1901– The initial phenomenon of speaking in tongues occurred at Parham’s school in Topeka, Kansas – year later and very much copying the same style after Parham’s visit in Shiloh.
What is NOT certain IF Parham taught initial evidence ie. speaking in tongues as part of the baptism PRIOR to Shiloh Dr. Harold D. Hunter tells the story better than me in his article on the FORGOTTEN ROOTS OF THE AZUSA STREET REVIVAL http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostal-roots-of-the-azusa-street-revival/
Stephen Williams
Yes, Parham was certainly influenced by Sanford’s school and teaching.
Varnel Watson
To me Sanford is the first one who connected speaking in tongues with HSB in modern day America
Stephen Williams
Irving in England. 1830’s.
Varnel Watson
That to me is not explicitly clear and documented As pointed to Link Hudson before. Irving’s book on pg 64ff becomes very unclear what’s standing sign, initial evidence and gift of tongues
Link Hudson
From ‘The Collected Writings of Edward Irving’
“Beyond all question …
speaking in tongues was the sign of the Holy Ghost in the person who so spake … as the tongue or word of man is the
sign of the mind within him; so, when another Spirit, the Spirit of God, enters into him, He signifieth His presence by
another tongue from that which the person himself useth.”
according to this site:http://agchurches.org/Sitefiles/Default/RSS/IValue/Resources/Holy%20Spirit/Articles/SpeakinginTongues.pdf
Varnel Watson
Once again standing sign or initial evidence? Irving makes a great deal of difference in the other book you cited. And also presence in the person or Holy Spirit baptism?
Link Hudson
Troy Day This doesn’t touch on the ‘initial evidence doctrine’, but I thought you might find it interesting. The first article touches a bit on Plymouth Brethren attitudes toward ‘Pentecostalism’ and eschatology. The second article is from a critic of Irving who had been in the movement. Irving had some beliefs similar to Pentecostals, including some Holiness beliefs, but other leaders in his movement did not all agree https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/cbrfj/10_40.pdf
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/8_Bt/Irving.html
Louise Cummings
False. Most Pentecostals will preach the beginning there. But the Church Of God was before that. It wasn’t named Church Of God at that time. But after a while the same people and same movement came up with Church Of God. And this Name has stayed. But the Church Of God was before Azusa street revival.
Jimmie Wheeler
The Pentecostal movement came about in the upper room when peter and the people were given the gift of the Holy Spirit and spake in another language that was not their own.
Varnel Watson
Thanks for the Link Link Still seems Shiloh and Parham were the first ones to really connect it. But Irving was very very close to that too
Link Hudson
That’s the problem. If Shiloh and Parham were first, why believe it?
I don’t know why Pentecostals would want to have connections with Sandford, either, considering the accounts of starvation, etc. which were said to have been attributed to the Lord’s leading.
Link Hudson
Btw, a quote from Irving,
“In The Collected Writings of Edward Irving, he had written: “Beyond all question …
speaking in tongues was the sign of the Holy Ghost in the person who so spake … as the tongue or word of man is the
sign of the mind within him; so, when another Spirit, the Spirit of God, enters into him, He signifieth His presence by
another tongue from that which the person himself useth.””
from http://agchurches.org/Sitefiles/Default/RSS/IValue/Resources/Holy%20Spirit/Articles/SpeakinginTongues.pdf
Michael Hazlewood
false
Rickey Matthews
false
Tim Anderson
False
Coe Campbell
False, Sadly The Revivals in Kansas and N.C. Mountains are often overlooked.
Varnel Watson
How do you mean? Did they connect the speaking of tongues with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Bill Coble
Yes, 1896 Murphy NC revival did. Over 100 baptized w Holy Ghost w Speaking in Tongues.
Varnel Watson
Though they may have been speaking in tongues no one there connected it as initial evidence. This was done only at Azusa
Stephen Williams
Nope. Connected at Topeka. Seymour got his IE doctrine from Parham. Canadians trace beginnings to the Hebdens in Toronto. Hebden was influenced by Keswick Holiness- independent of Azusa. Hebden connected SB with tongues as IE.
Paul Hughes
A lot of the roots went through Charles Parham’s work in Houston, including William J. Seymour. My grandfather was Spirit-baptized near Livingston in 1915 when some young evangelists were sent out from Houston. He went on to plant several assemblies in Baytown and northeast of Houston. Raymond T. Richey set up his Bible school in Baytown.
Varnel Watson
Livingston TX?
Hannah Marie Smith
I was taught that the AG had no solid ties to Azusa… maybe a few ingignificant figures attended Azusa, but Parham did not
Paul Hughes
The late Dr. Stanley Horton described his grandmother’s involvement at Azusa St.:
http://ifphc.org/pdf/PentecostalEvangel/1960-1969/1962/1962_10_07.pdf
Varnel Watson
Parham attended and disproved greatly AG’s roots are more in Azusa than anything else. See the ministry of Cashwell
Phillip Aaron Powers
False. Church of God Revival in Murphy predates Azusa Street by 10 years
Coe Campbell
That’s what I thought.
Bill Coble
False. 1896 in Mountains of NC before Azusa.
Phillip Aaron Powers
10 years before California
Varnel Watson
Did anyone there connect speaking in tongues as initial evidence of the baptism of the Spirit? There has been no evidence presented to that extent because no one there connected it
Curt Stewart
Pentecost started on the day of Pentecost. I suggest Marvin Arnold’s book “Apostolic Church history outline”.
Phillip Aaron Powers
Yes, we know. We are talking about American Pentecostalism
Curt Stewart
Apostolic Church history outline gives detailed info. On church history both here in the U.S. and other nations. References are given to.
Phillip Aaron Powers
Again, I realize that. HOWEVER… We are discussing American Pentecostalism. The article title is a little misleading.
Curt Stewart
It gives detailed information on American Pentecostals.
Phillip Aaron Powers
Thanks.
Curt Stewart
You’re welcome. Love you.
Varnel Watson
Phillip Aaron Powers How so? The title comes from this statement in the article: Today, practically all Pentecostal and charismatic movements can trace their roots directly or indirectly to the humble mission on Azusa Street and its pastor.
Louise Cummings
People does Reece it Azusa St first. But it’s wrong because the Church Of God was before them. It didn’t start out with the Church Of God. But Quickly changed to the Church Of God, before Azusa St. started. Even tho it changed names at first. It still was the same Church.
Ron Culbreth
False. It is traced to the day of Pentecost.
Louise Cummings
I thought everyone knew that. I thought you meant in our time. We wouldn’t have it , it not for when the Holy Ghost coming on the day of Pentecost.
Varnel Watson
What happened at Azusa Street during the next three years was to change the course of church history. Although the little frame building measured only 40 by 60 feet, as many as 600 persons jammed inside while hundreds more looked in through the windows. The central attraction was tongues, with the addition of traditional black worship styles that included shouting, trances, and the holy dance. There was no order of service, since “the Holy Ghost was in control.” No offerings were taken, although a box hung on the wall proclaimed, “Settle with the Lord.” Altar workers enthusiastically prayed seekers through to the coveted tongues experience. It was a noisy place, and services lasted into the night.
John Crilly
False…..
Varnel Watson
Why do you feel that way? The exact statement made by the article was
Today, practically all Pentecostal and charismatic movements can trace their roots directly or indirectly to the humble mission on Azusa Street and its pastor.
Louise Cummings
Troy Day I thank God for Azusa St. Outpouring.
Jeremiah Burton
Modern day Pentecostal Theology does, but even Parham & Seymour needed the teaching of Acts 2 to inspire their teachings.
Jeremiah Burton
This was a great article…..thanks for sharing.
Varnel Watson
Do you agree or disagree with this statement? WHY?
Carl Dawson
I disagree. There were early groups that had stammering lips in Michigan and Ohio and Tennessee and North Carolina who joined with other groups after Azusa .
Varnel Watson
correct http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/historically-and-theologically-first-person-in-america-to-speak-in-tongues-with-holy-ghost-baptism/
Jared Cheshire
I disagree. All Pentecostals trace their roots back to the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Varnel Watson
what about all American Pentecostals ?
Jared Cheshire
There is neither Jew nor Greek, nor American for that matter.
There are stories I have heard of people with pentecostal experience further back than our founding of this country.
Joshua Tesillo
Yup that when the denomination started
Varnel Watson
this is correct – THE very reason the historian of Azusa and one of the most dedicated evangelist of Pentecost BARTLEMAN left was when denominations started splitting the young movement
Varnel Watson
Chris Westerman you seem to suggest that engaging in a bitter ‘culture war’ in order to preserve America’s formerly dominant Christian culture has been largely a failed strategy but I will submit that you may be too late for any of that
Anonymous
When I was on staff at a COG, Cleaveland, TN. The pastor was adamant that the COG had experienced and embraced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in other tongues before the Azusa outpouring.
Anonymous
not pentecostal enough? John Digsby Link Hudson
Anonymous
Who knows that it may be for propaganda to get the awareness of others.
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/vinson-synan-charles-r-fox-jr-william-j-seymour-pioneer-of-the-azusa-street-revival/
Anonymous
HISTORICALLY and THEOLOGICALLY, who was the first person in America to come up with the idea of Speaking in Tongues as part of the Holy Ghost baptism?
We know that Parham visited with Dowie where he borrowed the idea from Zion’s healing houses and established healing school in Topeka. But there was no speaking in tongues at Zion – so where did he take the idea of speaking in tongues come up? Philip Williams Jerome Herrick Weymouth J.D. King Dale M. Coulter Tony Richie though cog preached in tongues just around 1909 and not earlier https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/preaching-in-tongues-among-early-pentecostals/
Anonymous
Troy, Parham got the idea at Frank Sandford’s Shiloh In Massachusetts. He supposedly heard one of the students speaking in tongues at the prayer tower.
Anonymous
J.D. King identifying tongues as the initial evidence began at Topeka and Parham taught it at his School of the Prophets in Houston. He and Pennock laid hands on Seymour when they sent him to preach the message in Los Angeles. Parham headed to Zion Illinois to preach the message there. After this, Pentecost mostly spread from Los Angeles.
Anonymous
Philip, I know that Shiloh didn’t teach tongues as the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. However, it is true that Parham heard some tongues speech there.
Anonymous
J.D. King oh please Philip Williams is just singing his song with NO proof
YOU can NOT – I repeat can NOT prove Sanford connection 1 little bit
REFERENCE => https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/frank-sanford-and-his-history/
it is just like we can say Parham got it from ZION or Bartleman and Azusa got it from Irwing
REFERENCE =>https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/irwin-taught-baptisms-of-fire-dynamite-lyddite-and-oxidite/
Larry Martin and Bishop Bernie L Wade got into this when they were writing their books on PARHAM and there could NOT settle where he got it from
January 1, 1901– The initial phenomenon of speaking in tongues occurred at Parham’s school in Topeka, Kansas
January 6, 1900 – Frank Sanford’s Shiloh school reported that “The gift of tongues has descended”
1896 – Over 100 people baptized in the Shaerer schoolhouse revival conducted by the Christian Union in the North Carolina mountains
1887 – People falling in trances and speaking in tongues were reported at Maria Etter’s revival meetings in Indiana
1874 – Speaking in tongues occurred during healing meetings reported in New York
1873 – William H. Doughty and the Gift People of Rhode Island spoke in tongues
1854 – V. P. Simmons and Robert Boyd reported tongue speaking during Moody’s meetings
REFERENCE => https://cupandcross.com/speaking-in-tongues-in-america-prior-to-the-azusa-street-revival-of-1906-diamonds-in-the-rough-n-ready-pentecostal-series/
Parham could have gotten it from anyone AT THE SAME TIME Mel Robeck has explained many times and ways how the FIRST to speak in tongues @ Azusa were the Molokans – it is recorded in Apostolic Faith issue #1 and many other after it.
The Molokans claim to have spoken in tongues and recognized it as sign for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the early 1900s some 2,000 Molokans (mostly of the Jumpers/Leapers) immigrated to California (via Elis Island) after receiving a young boy’s prophecy to do so in their homeland. Among them was the family of Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship International’s founder Demos Shakarian who tells the story in his autobiography (Demos Shakarian, The Happiest People on Earth: The Long-Awaited Personal Story of Demos Shakarian (Old Tappan, NJ: Chosen Books, 1975).
The Russian settlers formed a community in Los Angeles near Boyle Heights and Oake’s lot (later Pecan Playground at 1st and Pecan Str.) around the Flats area slums were tent revival meetings took place during the Azusa Street Revival (1906-09) (Samarin, William. Tongues of Men and Angels. The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: The Macmillan Company, 1972). See also Pauline C. Young The Russian Molokan Community in Los Angeles in American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 35, No. 3, Nov. 1929 (University of Chicago Press, 1929).
REFERENCE => https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-molokans-claim-to-have-spoken-in-tongues-2/
Anonymous
Troy Day there are numerous instances of speaking in tongues reported over the centuries. What created the Pentecostal movement was the initial evidence doctrine which everyone should agree began with Parham, whatever his moral failures. That should keep us Pentecostals humble, probably as God intended.
Anonymous
just recently Philip Williams addressed J.D. King on this article by saying
I believe that Vinson Synan neglected the importance of the Latter Rain motif In Pentecostal history. Latter Rain thought predates Parham who prayed that the Lord would send the Latter Rain. Writing in the forties, decades before Synan, Methodist historian of America’s small sects Elmer T. Clark classifies all the Pentecostal churches as Latter Rain sects.
It seems that recent histories have limited Latter Rain teachings to the mid-century New Order of Latter Rain movement. Was a reason this was called New Order! Before the Dispensationalist rapture took over the Pentecostal seminaries, Pentecostals believed the opposite, that is, in the Latter Rain!
now Peter Vandever has already stated J.D. King is no historical theologian and I myself has suspected Philip Williams Pentecost stopped with his grandma SO from where any of them can claim DR Synan was wrong is a mystery for the ages to resolve
We may look some into the church of God claims 1986 Dale M. Coulter Tony Richie whereas Todd Shaw stated
The Church of God began as the Christian Union. They changed their name at the request of their leader as he believed that they had aligned themselves with the Church of God of the Bible.
HOWEVER I just recently researched some Baptist archives in Tellico Plaines / Reliance and there is absolutely NO proof for any of this as a historical NON-example and after speaking with Wade H. Phillips it is clear that the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) did NOT exist before 20th century.
https://www.amazon.com/Quest-Restore-Gods-House-Formation-Transformation-Reformation/dp/193593144X
AND Link Hudson may or may not be cog enough to know this though weVE discussed the earliest tongue speakers on Azusa being the #MOLOKANS https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-molokans-claim-to-have-spoken-in-tongues/
Anonymous
Troy Day This is literally in the book description that YOU provided. “Quest to Restore God’s House – A Theological History of the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee): Volume I, 1886-1923, R.G. Spurling to A.J. Tomlinson, Formation-Transformation-Reformation.”
Anonymous
Todd Shaw if you actually took time to read Wade he proves HOW
1. first off they did not consider tongues as evidence back then
2. they were not cog just yet AND if they were to be considered cog it would be cogOP not cog-cleveland as you attempted to state
3. very few spoke in tongues – like 2-3 not 100 at the shareware school house revival and NONE of them were among the Christian Union members – and NONE of them were ever part of cog – the Kilpatrick family is still out of cog to this day just 1 example 🙂
if you just took the time away from the historical clichés and read the book beyond its title – – – there is whole another world out there
Anonymous
Troy Day 1. It still happened. They didn’t know what this experience was, or how it fit into scripture, but it happened & has been happening throughout history. God would not limit Himself to one man, or one movement. “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:39)
2. Either you are unaware, or unwilling to acknowledge that the COG and the COGOP have a shared history until the movement split in the 1920’s. So they were one, and the same, until the split.
3. Few, or many, doesn’t matter. You made the assertion that all Pentecostal denominations & movements can be traced back to Azusa Street. That isn’t true. Why look through history with a closed mind? That’s like going shopping without taking money with you.
Anonymous
Todd you are reaching but have no case Apparently you are unware of your own history and trying to turn my proven points against the claim – it is not working you see 🙂 Dr SYNAN made the claim – not me, and he offered plenty of proof. You however cannot show a SINGLE prove that tongues were spoken as HS baptism in 1896 Appalachia – there is no such proof. If there was you would have presented it instead of the usual cliché mantras. Just read the book already and get yourself educated on the subject pls
Anonymous
no then Jerome Herrick Weymouth also said he don’t believe that. + THey preached upon the latter rain. It’s supposed to be the next great Holy Spirit outpouring and after that would come the rapture. Well when I was in the Assembly of God church. I used to hear a lot of sermons on the latter rain. Because there was the outpouring on the day of Pentecost And the Azusa Street revival and then in the last days there would be the Latter Rain outpouring.
to which Philip Williams began singing his regular song that
the rapture teaching taught a latter day apostasy, not a latter day revival. Why would God remove a church that is winning the world for Christ!
which is malarkey AS I’ve proven to him no less than dozen times early pentecostals were as pre-trib as they get as was his late grate Pentecostal grandmother #over4now https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/vinson-synan-charles-r-fox-jr-william-j-seymour-pioneer-of-the-azusa-street-revival/
Anonymous
Esther Yateesa if you just read what Peter Vandever has been saying you would have not answer with :
False.
However, I believe the formulation of the two distinctive Pentecostal doctrine are traced back to Charles Parham. Their catalyst was at Azusa led by Joseph Seymour.
ALSO Karsten Wille stated
This is a much debated topic. If it is true, does this mean the root of pentecostal faith is based on oneness pentecostals, therefore not trinitarian? Educate me guys, as I prefer trinitarian. to which Ivan Karel could not really answer with much evidence …
Anonymous
Thanks for the conversation. It is the case that spontaneous eruptions of Pentecostal-like phenomena occurred before the 20th century, and before Azusa Street, not only in the USA (CCOG) but also globally (e.g., Chile, India). I find it helpful to bear in mind that church leaders (e.g., Tomlinson, Phillips) or historians (whether Conn or Phillips, etc.) do not write without agendas of their own (having read both C and P). And, of course, the same can be said of theologians LOL.
Anonymous
Tony Richie Tomlinson did NOT speak in tongues until after Cashwell came to Cleveland – I believe the revival was next to the old YMCA or around there where they also handled the serpent when the Spirit fell upon them with power – the difference is Peter Vandever and J.D. King have never handled the serpent under the Spirit Philip Williams you see now Todd Shaw I may be getting old now having forgotten more than you know about cog 🙂 but as Jim Price once told me: Rev. James Slay of the Narragansett Church of God in Chicago was commissioned to write the book entitled, THIS WE BELIEVE in connection to the 1948 Church of God Declaration of Faith. During the forties, you could see him driving around Cleveland in a white and green Packard. His hair was much longer then and somewhat wavy. Later, he was heard preaching a sermon at the Narragansett Church of God in Chicago a sermon titled: “God setteth the door ajar and flings it wide open when necessary.” https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/narragansett-church-of-god-in-chicago-celebrates-70-years/
Anonymous
Tony Richie youVE actually now read Vol2 of Wade’s series /?
Anonymous
All Pentecostals trace roots to Mary’s House 😉
Anonymous
Mary did you know ?
Anonymous
is THIS the article you wrote about? Judith Smith where does it say anything close to what you are saying? A strawman is someone answering a question no one asked
Anonymous
Troy Day I answered a question to an article you posted. Why are you uptight about it?
Anonymous
Judith Smith article was posted by Dr SYNAN in our group while he was still alive Vinson Synan
Of all the outstanding black American religious leaders in the twentieth century, one of the least recognized is William Seymour, the unsung pastor of the Azusa Street Mission in Los Angeles and catalyst of the worldwide Pentecostal movement. Only in the last few decades have scholars become aware of his importance, beginning perhaps with Yale University historian Sidney Ahlstrom, who said Seymour personified a black piety “which exerted its greatest direct influence on American religious history”—placing Seymour’s impact ahead of figures like W. E. B. Dubois and Martin Luther King, Jr.
Anonymous
No, Parham. Seymour was a catalyst.
Anonymous
Danny Payton No, Parham what? Parham plainly denied AND rejected Seymour saying nothing @ Azusa had anything to do with the Pentecost Parham was teaching
Anonymous
Troy Day we’ll, seeing Pentecostalism as tongues being the initial evidence of the BHS that was duration proclaimed I 1901 at Parhams Bible s hool on Topeka. Seymour recieved instruction in this under Parham in Texas before going onto California. So that’s my understanding.
Anonymous
Danny Payton partially right as Philip Williams attested earlier
Anonymous
Troy Day didn’t read the thread. Just answered a question.
Anonymous
Danny Payton of course 🙂
Anonymous
Danny Payton this is pretty racist as a claim you see – what you just stated
Anonymous
you never gave your 2 cents there Peter Vandever Terry Wiles Paul L. King
Anonymous
Troy Day I grew up Pentecostal. But we never traced our roots to Azusa. Of course we recognized it happened there. But our churches were so Bible based we looked to the book of Acts and believed it was for all including men, women, sons and daughters.
Anonymous
Terry Wiles AG never traced our roots to Azusa? you recon how racist this could be interpreted any given Sunday – perhaps the reason for the article WHO know Vinson never talked much about it afterwards Peter
Anonymous
Troy Day lol. That’s the problem. Too much focus on man and not enough holding to the truth. Gods word is truth.
Troy Day
Neil Steven Lawrence YES the Latter Rain started before Azusa Street. BUT the letter rain did not experience MASS glossolalia like @ AZUSA There were here and there some but isolated baptisms with tongues even in Kansas as Peter Vandever has recognized AND for the most these early cases DID NOT recognize the sign as initial evidence too
Troy Day
Oscar Valdez I think William DeArteaga masterfully showed that disp. theology robbed Pentecostals from the very essence of the Holy Spirit restorationism we followed so eagerly Also Daniel Isgrigg did a masterful presentation @ SPS on the uneasy relationship with disp. which all @followers should review when he puts his PPW online
Troy Day
Robert Cox when you said
you mean bc the wyt guys came and took over and drove the Holyghost out?
not sure how you referred it to this so John Mushenhouse could respond BUT I was remembering a comment you did back in the day outing many as racists. Not sure if it was this one or another though