Does Pentecostal theology teach Christ as savior with our permission?

Does Pentecostal theology teach Christ as savior with our permission?
Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

217 Comments

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    What has our permission to do with truth? How far have Pentecostals sank?

    • Joshwa Bedford
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Joshwa Bedford

      Philip Williams many have made themselves self sovereign. When we are self sovereign God must work in our timing, not His. It’s the product of a “me-centered,” fallen world.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Joshwa Bedford bingo

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Joshwa Bedford

      “When we are self sovereign God must work in our timing, not His.”

      Profound statement.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      Philip Williams why assume Pentecostal theology teaches that?

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Joshwa Bedford to say that God’s sovereignty is limited by man’s freedom is to make man sovereign.

    • Joshwa Bedford
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Joshwa Bedford

      Kelly Crites amen brother

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Joshwa Bedford I know one thing is for sure, Jesus did not ask permission before he invaded my life and saved me. What a mighty savior we in Jesus!

  • Gerardo de Dominicis

    Arminianism, by definition, teaches that and Pentecostalism is an Arminian denomination and we can see the extreme and dangerous side of Arminianism in the third wave Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement where we see people teaching that God can’t do anything without our active participation and collaboration.

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Have you actually read Arminius or any of the articles at http://www.evangelicalarminians.org? What you say may describe some people who call themselves Arminian (mainly based on the fact that they’re not Calvinists), but is not in line with actual Arminian theology.

    • Gerardo de Dominicis

      Brian Roden if you don’t agree with the 5 points of Calvinism then you are an Arminian, but I think the big part of Christians are somewhere in the middle.

    • Joshwa Bedford
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Joshwa Bedford

      Gerardo de Dominicis best not to make a blanket statement like that; “Pentecostalism is an Arminian denomination.” I know many Pentecostals who are Reformed Charismatics or are Calvinists. Many reformers are 4 point Calvinists. Also remember that Calvin wasn’t a Calvinist and Jacob Arminius was not an Arminianist. People have over stretched there teaching and theology.

      Tongues for instance, Luther has experienced the gift and Calvin never discredited the gift. God was at work at the time of the Reformation and we cannot discredit that pivotal point in Church history.

    • Gerardo de Dominicis

      Pentecostalism comes (or has its roots) from the “holiness movement” and Methodism, both Arminian movements. Yes, there are Pentecostals from a Calvinist background but the “reformed” theology and approach is the exception not the rule in Pentecostal circles.

    • Joe Absher
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Joe Absher

      Love those podcasts

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Joshwa Bedford #facts amen my brother!

    • Joe Absher
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Joe Absher

      Good podcast presentation on the discipleship methods of John Wesley. Thank you

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Gerardo de Dominicis // if you don’t agree with the 5 points of Calvinism then you are an Arminian, but I think the big part of Christians are somewhere in the middle//

      Are you saying that if someone doesn’t agree with ANY ONE of the 5 points of TULIP, they’re Arminian? That is not accurate, as there are many “4-point Calvinists” or Amyraldians, who hold to all but Limited Atonement (instead, believing in a general atonement).

      Are you saying that if someone REJECTS ALL 5 points of the TULIP, they are Arminian? That is also inaccurate, as classical Arminian theology holds to Total Depravity (see http://evangelicalarminians.org/the-facts-of-salvation-a-summary-of-arminian-theologythe-biblical-doctrines-of-grace/)

      Arminian theologian Roger Olsen says that he vast majority of American Evangelicals are in reality most likely semi-Pelagian in what they actually believe about salvation.

    • Gerardo de Dominicis

      Brian Roden then they are not Calvinist 🤷🏻‍♂️

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Gerardo de Dominicis But not being a Calvinist doesn’t automatically make them Arminian. There are other systematics regarding soteriology besides those two.

    • Gerardo de Dominicis

      Brian Roden you are right.

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Troy Day

    maybe Wayne Scott or Charles Page can tell us

    • Charles Page
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Charles Page

      Phillips William’s first answer pretty well answered the question.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      Charles Page you think Pentecostal theology teaches that?

    • Charles Page
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Charles Page

      pentecostal theology is a multi-theological system
      It is the essence of first century Christianity rather than a latter day aberration! Latter Day Saints are primarily dispensational in their theology.

  • Wayne Scott
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Wayne Scott

    I’m from the South. (Louisiana). Down there “Pentecostal” was inseparable from “holiness” which meant Arminian like Wesley.

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      In other words, we had no concept of God saving someone without their permission and cooperation.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Original Pentecostals may or may not have been Arminian, but to a man, they rejected Calvinism. That was just something taught in those dead churches.

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Troy Day

    Original Pentecostals were most certainly Wesleyan Armenian There is absolutely no doubt about that We may not be certain of other things but we know for a fact they emerged from the Wesleyan Armenian tradition Charles Page Thomas Henry Jr. As for Wayne Scott he may be deep into legalism on this one Joe Absher

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    I’m Pentecostal but I’m not Arminian. Any salvation based on works places man as savior.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      Well you are not an early Pentecostal BUT Can one be a Pentecostal Calvinist? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/can-one-be-a-pentecostal-calvinist/

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. Do you really think that John Wesley preached works-based salvation?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day Pentecostal Calvinist = oxymoron

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Philip Williams But Charismatic (or at least continuationist) Calvinists are pretty common these days. Sam Storms, Matt Chandler, Matt Slick, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, etc.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Troy Day one can be Pentecostal and Calvinist. The question should be asked can one be Holiness and Calvinist? Not all Pentecostals embrace Palmerism.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams Pentecostalism isn’t opposed to Calvinism HOWEVER it is opposed to Holiness teachings that are mostly legalistic and works-based.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams Wesley wasn’t Pentecostal either.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Brian Roden his assumption is that all Calvinists are cessationists and such isn’t true.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      For those who are doubtful, study the reformed churches in England and Scotland where before Wesley they were recorded as prophesying, healing, and etc.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. No, but he believed in a second work of grace, which he called perfection. Others would call sanctification.

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Thomas Henry Jr. //The question should be asked can one be Holiness and Calvinist?//

      With the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd’s love for cigars and craft beers, probably not.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Brian Roden beers? There is scripture where God tells Israel to drink strong drink — beer.

      Are you pushing the women temperance Movement view on drinking that was adopted by American Holiness Churches????

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams it is the Hoky Spirit that works in us — sanctification and if we yield to the Holy Spirit instead of resisting him we won’t yield to the lust of the flesh.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. Brian Roden these Reformed may acknowledge a Scriptural support for continuation of gifts, but it is not something that they have experienced or possess.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Brian Roden I’m looking for cigars in scripture— i know you’re not eisegeting 1 Corinthians 6 to say it’s a sin are you?

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams that’s your opinion — judge not according to appearance

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. if you like to sin, you choose the right theology. Pentecostal preachers who fall into sin and don’t want to leave it becomes Calvinist.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. the Scriptures tell us to be holy. The Spirit will not continue to strive with one who doesn’t wish to be Holy.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams you can go to hell for lying. I met more undercover Pentecostal preachers caught in more sins than I have calvinists. I was a Calvinist long before being baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. You are really confusing HOLINESS with Pentecostalism. Not all Pentecostals are Pentecostal-Holiness believers

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams the same bible says if one PRACTICES SIN that he was never BORN OF GOD — 1 John 3

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Thomas Henry Jr. you think I don’t know a way of faith that I have known for more than 70 years? How long you been Pentecostal?

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams believers may struggle WITH sin but believers do not PRACTICE SIN AS A LIFESTYLE

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams since 1978.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams and yes you can be in a FAITH for years and not KNOW it. We see such play out in scripture clearly with the Jews and their leaders

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Philip Williams the Bible clearly says that those who practice sin as a lifestyle are not born of God.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Armenian? I didn’t even know they came from Eastern Turkey!

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 14, 2019

      Brian Roden

      I know some Arminian missionaries working in Armenia

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      Charles Page has seen them in person

  • Ed Boardman
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Ed Boardman

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcWXK8dbiOI
    🎥 The Pentecostal Heresy Refuted – YouTube

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    I’m not here to have a who has the better credentials contest. I’m here to CONTEND for the Faith. A faith that is both REFORMED and PENTECOSTAL minus the errors of the Holiness Movement that were legalistic and works-based and negated the sufficiency of the Cross.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. The important thing is that you are defending Holiness teachings. What’s your problem with the word?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    It is nothing but the Romanish works-based salvation repackage that still left men and women lost and hell bound

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m not defending Holiness Movement errors. I’m defending SCRIPTURE.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    The Holiness Movement is legalistic and works-based. Just like someone earlier pushing the Kentucky women temperance Movement teaching on drinking.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. Those were some of the best people who ever lived in America. I knew how they lived. Why defame them?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. do you know how badly alcoholism was destroying the families of America?

    Trying to censure the evils of drinking to help families is some kind of sin?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams that Movement didn’t know scripture and was legalistic. I’m thankful the Holy Spirit delivered some from it. Sadly, man in his sinful ways is always trying to do God’s work — God saves me
    He justifies me
    He sanctifies
    He will one day glorify me

    Romans chapter 8

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams alcoholism is not the same as drinking in moderation which the Bible permits. The Bible condemns drunkenness aka alcoholism as a sin

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams you aren’t about to start eisegeting with a false premise? We were doing so well my friend

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams alcoholism IS sin

    Drinking IS NOT a sin

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. I live with one who has an alcoholic problem. Do you think that I should have wine or beer here?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. so it’s not a sin for you? How does your behavior affect your weaker brothers and sisters?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams the Bible says drinking isn’t a sin PERIOD

    THE BIBLE says drunkenness/alcoholism is the SIN.

    What’s lawful for you if you never was an alcoholic is not lawful for the alcoholic. That’s Bible or are we trying to twist scripture to justify faulty holiness teachings that started with the Kentucky women temperance Movement?!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    All I got is Scripture …

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams as a Pentecostal you do believe the Holy Spirit is greater than alcoholism don’t you?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. just about you? No concern for your brothers?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams. You didn’t read as I expected.

    If it’s a sin for your brother the alcoholic then you don’t exercise your liberty around them so as not to become a point of stumbling. I REPEAT DRUNKENNESS IS THE SIN not DRINKING

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Gluttony is a SIN too so should one stop eating?

    Lying is a sin so should one stop talking?

    Fornicating is a sin so should all stop having sex?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. how about all this focus on yourself? Is that a sin or just immaturity?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    This is the fallacy of the women temperance Movement and the errors continue in the Holiness Movement that ignores scripture

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. yes, they acted out of love. So different from this selfish generation.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams i haven’t focus on me. I highlighted scripture while YOU are trying to push the women temperance Movement as biblical dogma

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams there was no love in that foolishness

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. you are pushing yourself

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    I knew you were going to justify a man-made dogma at the expense of the Word of God.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    “Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭8:9-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/1co.8.9-13.niv

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I have not and is your argument so weak you have to go to attacks?! You cannot stay on topic?!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams conformation bias is dangerous you really didn’t read my comment. That happens I forgive you in Jesus Name

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. if you could just hold back with your pompous hypocrisy.

  • Joe Absher
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Joe Absher

    Permission? Are you kindling me? I got on my knees and begged God to save me. I was hell bound for sure with no excuses and no help apart from Jesus Christ. His promise to receive and pardon and make new. You guys fuss about the dumbest stuff

    • Isara Mo
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Joe Absher
      ” You guys fuss about the DUMBEST stuff”
      Good old Joe…
      The Bible says redeem time because the days are EVIL…

  • Brian Roden
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Brian Roden

    Philip Williams //these Reformed may acknowledge a Scriptural support for continuation of gifts, but it is not something that they have experienced or possess.//

    I know for a fact that both Matt Slick and Sam Storms speak in tongues, so the last part of your statement is unfounded.

  • Brian Roden
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Brian Roden

    Thomas Henry Jr. I was just trying to make a joke about what holiness groups traditionally consider taboo that the YRR crowd enjoys.

    Guess my humor needed the gift of interpretation.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams. I haven’t been pompous…

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Brian Roden No problem. I’ve been on the road ministering all weekend and just literally got back in. Charge it to my tiredness

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams the fact remains… you really didn’t read my comment smh but went to name calling

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    You pompous hypocrite! You started this by judging and condemning people you don’t know.

  • Brian Roden
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Brian Roden

    Thomas Henry Jr. //conformation bias//

    The Scriptures actually do have a bias toward us being conformed to the image of Christ (see what I did with a one-letter typo?)

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I was taught that when you have to launch into name calling — you have no argument. You spoke of an oxymoron and I rebutted. You continue to result to name calling. I stand flat footed on Scripture… you judged those of us who were reformed and said only Pentecostals who were reformed left because of sin.

    My friend, I forgive you because I know Christ and his love — redemptive love flows through me.

    I condemned a dogma posited by the Kentucky Women Temperance Movement that has been picked up by Holiness Churches and taught as Bible doctrine. Such teachings has rendered the word of God powerless and taught for doctrine a legalistic commandment of men — Mat 15.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. and what false humility!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Brian Roden i can agree with that

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams still using character attacks instead of staying with the topic at hand. Love you brother!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Brian Roden I just drove through your state going and coming from Tulsa, OKLAHOMA.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. then why keep attacking those good women, you pious hypocrite?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m not attacking GOOD women. I’m attacking their misguided logic and FALSE TEACHINGS. If you calling them GOOD then Carlton Pearson must no longer be a false teacher?!

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. when it comes to self-righteousness, those women couldn’t hold a candle to you.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams the name calling says you taken this personal. Are you related to those misguided ladies of the Kentucky Women Temperance Movement who introduce this false teaching???? That might explain your anger here.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. and just what explains your prideful judgments?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m saved, #1

    I am Holy Spirit-filled, #2

    I’m biblically and politically conservative—so there is no way you will convince me that the KWTM preached truth

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams it is not prideful to point out heresy and heterodoxy

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams we are called to NAME false teachers and the Kentucky Women Temperance Movement pushed FALSE TEACHINGS PERIOD

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. are you a 5 point Calvinist?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams you are showing a disregard for scripture here

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams do you subscribe to any form works-based salvation?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. Calvinist do a lot of that. Is that your point?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams if you do then scriptures declare YOU ARENT SAVED. Matthew 7

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams Calvinist do not subscribe to WORKS based salvation—- you confusing Calvinism with works-based Arminianism

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. like this?

    “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/jas.2.14-17.niv

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams lol eisegeting I see. James does not support works based salvation

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    You got to do better. If you think it does then you contradict Paul in Romans.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    ““Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/mat.7.24-27.niv

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams James says if you want evidence of my salvation— then he can prove to YOU not GOD that he is saved by the WORKS THAT FLOW OUT OF SALVATION. We don’t work to be saved. We work BECAUSE (Eph 2) we ARE SAVED.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams eisegeting again— Arminianism believes in the false works based salvation that has to HELP THE CROSS OF CHRIST OUT. Roman Catholicism repackaged as Holiness legalism

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    In the book of Romans, Paul refers to the uselessness of the Law of Moses, but insist that we be obedient to the New Covenant that Jesus brought.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. to be saved.

    1. You must repent.

    2. You must obey Jesus.

    3. You must remain faithful.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams that new covenant has two commandments too — love God with all you are

    Love your neighbor as yourself

    You do these things that means salvation has been wrought in your life and works are flowing out of that salvation

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams that’s Catholicism not the Bible

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams you just explain why Pentecostal preachers are falling into sin, pornography and etc works based salvation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. how about loving Jesus by keeping his commandments. He certainly does say that in the Bible.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams again WORKS FLOW OUT OF SALVATION—-one does not WORK TO BE SAVED. You are pushing Catholicism repacked as holiness dogma.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. is that what you are doing? I know that the more they sin, the more they go to Calvinism.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams believe and be baptized— I can come and lead you into biblical salvation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. by quoting the words of Jesus?

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. you are obviously leading folks down the road to Hell,

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams WRONG… dude you going to make me really post all the sinners in the Holiness Pentecostal Movement who will see hell fires 🔥 according to your heretical teachings

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams you have twisted scripture like the Pharisees did in Matthew 15 pushing a Romanish works based salvation as Holiness dogma.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    From name calling to twisting scripture

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams IF YOU ARE RIGHT, but you aren’t, then we all should be Roman Catholics now. They taught a works-based salvation

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 14, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    There is a way (works-based) that’s seems right to humanity but the end thereof is damnation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. have you ever met Jesus?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams a long time ago. Led many to Christ, cast out devils, etc TO GOD BE ALL GLORY.

    I’m ready to lead you to Christ as Savior. Salvation is a free gift — no works required Unless any man should BOAST

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. How high do you stand in his sight? Is Jesus impressed with you?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I planned to hear him say Servant Well done. If he could used a racist like Charles Parham he can surely use a Pentecostal Calvinist like me who holds scriptures HIGH. Each day acknowledging the grace of God that saves a wretch like me. Wasn’t fit to live and wasn’t even ready to die. But God drew me unto himself— reconciling me with his grace!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Excuse me while I praise him for redemption in, with, and through Christ

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams glory to the lamb of God!!!!!

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams let me introduce you to the joy of my salvation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. you do think mighty highly of yourself. Is that Jesus’s view of you?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m humbled each day God thought enough to elect me unto salvation—I will not cease to praise Him for so GREAT A SALVATION

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. ohhh! That explains your pomposity, so typical of Calvinists.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams the early church was excite about their salvation to the point of giving their lives. I’m given mines tonight with all the verbal abuse you have dole out here as you pushed a false dogma as works-based salvation. Thanks for the persecution

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Calvinist: one who loves to blame God for everything bad, even your own sins.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams Calvinists don’t blame God for everything. SMH

    Still attacking

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    you poor persecuted man.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams they surely don’t blame God for their sins

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. those of your own freewill?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m tired. But continue your attacks… i share in the FELLOWSHIP of his sufferings

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams good night. I’m praying FOR your salvation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. oh, you poor persecuted Calvinist!

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I feel we are welcome to Teach Christ I would say Jesus Christ as our Savior with a Capital S, your permission. I think you would Word it a little different way. But I believe we would have your Permission to teach Jesus Christ as Savior.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams I’m praying FOR your salvation

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. don’t you Calvinist believe that God has already determined that?

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    Great Testimony Bro. Joe Asher.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams GOOD NIGHT! You do need to go study Calvinism because you don’t know the theology

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. yeah. Every Calvinist has his own version of his Scripture-twisting theology.

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    No way getting around teaching Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord. With or without Permission.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams GOOD NIGHT… stop twisting Calvinism. Only Arminianism twists dogma— the Roman Catholic and the Holiness Movement are two sides of the same WORKS-based coin.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. you actually think that your words are God’s own, don’t you?

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams GOOD NIGHT

  • Philip Williams
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Thomas Henry Jr. have fine sleep in your self-righteous soul.

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Philip Williams GOOD NIGHT

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Troy Day

    Arminius still believed God draws the sinner BUT I still dont know Can one be a Pentecostal Calvinist? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/can-one-be-a-pentecostal-calvinist/?

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Troy Day

    Philip Williams Thomas Henry Jr. what was the bottom line of yalls conversation? I am aware that Calvinists are too quick to put Arminius with Pelagius but Arminianism is not Pelagianism I am only aware of 2 writings by Pelagius I’ve discussed with Link Hudson and Joe Absher I can see why based on them Wayne Scott is staying out of this one – the writings leave him with no ammo

    Around 418 Pelagius was asked by Albina, Pinianus, and Melania, wealthy Roman converts to Christianity,
    to provide a written condemnation of all that had been alleged against him. In response he provided the following
    anathema in their presence. It is unclear whether this is the complete written statement or just a fragment. It is found
    quoted in Augustine of Hippo’s two part work “On The Grace Of Christ, And On Original Sin”.

    “I anathematize the man who either thinks or says that the grace of God, whereby ‘Christ Jesus came into the world to
    save sinners,’ is not necessary not only for every hour and for every moment, but also for every act of our lives: and
    those who endeavor to disannul it deserve everlasting punishment.”

    -Signed by Pelagius http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/arminianism-is-not-pelagianism/

    • Philip Williams
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day what’s your problem with that confession of Pelagius?

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      I’ve studied Pelagius quite extensively and find few problems. I love his adherence to biblical saving grace as described by Paul in Titus 2:11-14. Before reading him I’d defined it the same way. He was falsely accused by Augustine of denying the need for God’s grace solely because he rejected Augustine’s redefining it into irresistible grace which guarantees the unconditional acceptance of the elect.

    • Charles Page
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Charles Page

      Arminius was not a Pelagian rather he was a classical Arminian. There people today who hold to classical Arminian views. I believe that most people today who hold to Arminianism are Pelagian. The belief stand with the denial of original sin.

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      Pelagius and I understand the Bible to say that the HS delivered teaching of Christ is God’s saving grace (John 14:26, Titus 2:11-14).

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      The “not by works” part of Eph 2:8-9 means works of the Levitical law; not “works of obeying Christ.”

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Kelly Crites

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Wayne Scott works flow out of salvation which the verses that follow clearly explains

  • Wayne Scott
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Wayne Scott

    When Arminians read verses about God drawing people, they do not read it as “dragging.” They read it as God calling them to repentance.

    • Charles Page
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Charles Page

      I think the term “dragging” is consistent with double predestination and is an expression of semi-Pelagianism.

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      How is it not also consistent with single predestination?

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      And how is “dragging” consistent with semi-Pelagianism (which is actually what Pelagius taught)?

    • Wayne Scott
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Wayne Scott

      Jesus said, “If I be lifted up, I will draw (not “drag”) all men unto Me.”

  • Brian Roden
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Brian Roden

    Depends on how you define “force”

    Jonah is an example of influence and response, not cause and effect (see Arminian theologian F. Leroy Forlines “Classical Arminianism”). God didn’t mechanistically flip a switch and change Jonah’s mind (cause and effect), but used circumstances to convince Jonah to repent and obey the charge God had given him to preach to Nineveh (influence and response).

  • Kelly Crites
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Kelly Crites

    Brian Roden used circumstances? When you say circumstances do you mean when Jonah was disobeying and running the opposite way of where God wanted him to go and then God caused such bad storm that Jonah would fall into the ocean and a giant fish came and swallowed him up and forcefully took him and spit him back onto land right where God wanted him?

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 15, 2019

    Troy Day

    Wayne Scott NO need to duplicate my posts if yould like to engage in a theological discussion on legalism. If you dont waste your time to spam the group and instead stop to think for a minute you will for yourself how unBiblical your statement here is

    *I understand legalism to be “trying to be righteous by keeping a list of rules.”

    • Charles Page
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Charles Page

      I’m not sure that defines legalism, is that what you think. Abiding by rules in and of itself is no necessarily negative.

      The practice of expecting and condemning other for not keeping “your” rules maybe legalism.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 15, 2019

      Troy Day

      I dont think it defines or redifines it As usual Wayne Scott has copy pasted some ready-to-go out of the box topic from another group that does not fit Pentecostal theology at all. Legalism among before all things starts with the legality of the law – not just any rules. Not even man made rules but the matter of the LAW

    • Joe Absher
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Joe Absher

      I don’t know how anybody can come to a Pentecostal group and not have glowing remarks for Jesus Christ. Some people!

    • Brian Roden
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Brian Roden

      Charles Page If memory serves, that’s how Gordon Fee defined legalism: expecting others to abide by what God has told YOU is right or wrong through your conscience (as opposed to explicit commands of Scripture)

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply May 16, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    Where did you find the five points of a tulip.

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply May 16, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I don’t believe you can be a true believing Calvinist , and be Pentecostal. You might believing some of the things they believe , and be Pentecostal.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Louise Cummings I’m Pentecostal and Calvinist and there is no conflict in my faith

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Thomas Henry Jr. Yeah I’m reformed charismatic.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Kelly Crites i think many here are confusing Holiness with Pentecostalism. The former is based on Palmerism and works-based

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Thomas Henry Jr. I’m surprised how many Pentecostals believe we are saved by grace plus works. I didn’t even know that was a thing in Pentecostal theology.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Kelly Crites I’m surprised too considering there is a difference between Pentecostals and Holiness-Pentecostals the later of which is works based.

    • Kelly Crites
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Kelly Crites

      Thomas Henry Jr. Are Holiness Pentecostals, the “Oneness” Holiness Pentecostal?

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Kelly Crites oneness are Holiness-Pentecostals but most are Trinitarian like COGIC, COG & etc. The Assemblies of God is “finished work” Pentecostal. I find this thread troubling

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      Thomas Henry Jr. do you believe in some born to heaven and some to go to hell. Jesus died for everyone to go to Heaven. But He gave them a choice and the take the way of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. But they had a choice not to eat Of that tree. But they listen to the devil instead of God. The same as people today. They have a choice to go to Heaven. But if they listen to the devil they won’t go. But that’s isn’t Gods fault. They have a choice to go to Heaven. That’s what they believe. Also if you have been saved once. They never have to ask forgiveness again. You can do any sin you want to and still go to Haven. Is that what you believe?

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Louise Cummings you assuming God was blind to what Adam and Eve or he planned it? I believe like scripture whom God foreknew then He God also called – Romans 8. But no you are not correctly articulating Reformed belief nor do you seem to understand Paul in Romans 8

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      Thomas Henry Jr. yes I understand perfectly. Read the whole chapter. He predestination us all for Heaven. He knew you before you was ever born. But to the ones that are going to serve Him, it is never the person that is predestined, but rather the Plan. What makes one think I’m so special that He said He made me to go. I’m special. But my brother , well he wasn’t quite as special. He wasn’t in the predestine group. Well I hate it. I would like to see him there , but he wasn’t good enough. He just wasn’t special enough. Why do you need a preacher to lead you to the Lord , if He has already got it fixed. I’ll agree , He is all knowing. But it’s isn’t that He loved one more than than the other. He loves us all and paid a great price that no one would have to go to Hell. You do that as your choice. Not Gods. I would look into the whole chapter.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Louise Cummings the Bible doesn’t that its the plan… It clearly says that WHOM HE FOREKNEW is a person not a plan. Stop reading after that error

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      Well I am Church Of God. They didn’t have to teach me that , if I read the Bible. The Word Of God teaches it.

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      You can not be saved by works. That’s believing the law could save you. The law taught you what sin was. It took a Spotless Blood , Of The Man Called Jesus, to get saved. It is by Grace through Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus. Is the only through believing in Him, That Jesus Christ Is Lord. That’s the way to Jesus. It could never be by works , lest any man can boast. Is what the Bible says. You could never do anything to earn you way through works.

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 16, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      I love everyone.no matter what they believe. But I just want them to be sure things are right between them and God. And not just take it for granite. You might be a Christian. I’m not your judge. If you believe in the Shed.blood of Jesus. And that He is The Son Of God. And been born again. That’s the way to Salvation. I’m not saying you are not a Christian. And you are special. God Made you special. I was just making a point. Everyone is special to God. That why He sent His Son to die for us. He didn’t want any of His creation to go to hell. Everyone is special to God. I guess I could have not used it that plain as you and your brother. Because you both are special to God and to me. But I don’t want anyone else to be lost either. By teaching a false doctrine. Or I believe it a false doctrine.

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply May 17, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      Thomas Henry Jr. He foreknew is all before we ever got here in the world. No God is not Blind to anything. He Knows all things. We can’t hid anything from God. He knew where Adam was all the time. Just like He knows where we are. He is All Knowing. , All Powerful, and Omnipresent , everywhere at the same time. Nothing will ever be hid from God. Not even Adam. He knew where he was. And what he had done. That’s the reason He started making a Way for the Son Of God to be born in the world , to make a Way back to God. Through the seed of a woman , not of a man. He was The Word Of God Made flesh, The Lamb Of God. Because the blood of bulls and goats blood. Couldn’t pay for sin. It had to be a Spotless Lamb. His Name was called Jesus , because He was the only Spotless Lamb , that forgive men form their sin.

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply May 17, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Louise Cummings You still didn’t correct your statement when you said “Louise Cummings Thomas Henry Jr. yes I understand perfectly. Read the whole chapter. He predestination us all for Heaven. He knew you before you was ever born. But to the ones that are going to serve Him, it is never the person that is predestined, but rather the Plan.”

      But thanks for the dialogue. You still have not convince and will not that we can LOSE OUR SALVATION. You cannot lose that which you cannot earn and did nothing beyond believe to get.

      Only sinful mankind fights and argue for a system that leaves him or her in charge of their own salvation. Romans 8 is very clear.

      WHOM HE (GOD) foreknew THEM HE (GOD) also
      CALLS
      ELECTS
      JUSTIFIES
      SANCTIFIES
      GLORIFIES

      All we do is believe. God does the rest as it relates to salvation. Which is why Paul tells us to quench not the Holy Spirit of God. God works in believers to will and do of his God pleasure.

      You may have a hard time believing Paul the Apostle, but there is no ambiguity in that text in Romans whatsoever. There are more than enough Scripture to support it.

      Arminians tend to fight this true so I expect you to continue arguing without any scriptural merit.

      Grace be unto you!
      ++Thomas

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 16, 2019

    Troy Day

    Link Hudson as you see again grandma is putting them in their place 🙂

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