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John 6:37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me
How can one entity give multiple persons to another entity without the giving and receiving entities be different persons?
Varnel Watson
Robert Franzen Billy Monroe Poff Jevan Little HOW would this verse work without distinct persons? HOW can one entity give many persons to another entity without the giver and receiver being two distinct persons ?
Jevan Little
The father has a Divine will/mind. The Son has a human will/mind.
The Son can function as a human being, distinct from God.
Billy Monroe Poff
Can’t be done with just 1 entity. That’s elementary school common sense.
Miller Isaac
Then the bible would say 3 entities not 1 God
Billy Monroe Poff
Miller Isaac, I have no clue why you can’t grasp this. Or maybe it’s that you just don’t want to because you would have to first say you were wrong. . The trinity can easily explain there being 1 God composed of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Just the same as YOU are a trinity. You are a spirit that has a soul that lives in a body. You are only 1 person that has 3 distinct and separate parts. Your spirit is not your soul and your soul is not your body. There are 3 that make up the 1. And YOU were created in the image of God so therefore He also had to have a Spirit Soul and Body, which He does! It’s called the trinity. 3 in 1. It’s really very simple. The trinity perfectly explains why the Bible says there is only 1 God and yet it makes CLEAR DISTINCTIONS between the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Yet your oneness theology cannot explain it without having to try to twist or dance around the MULTIITPLE verses everyone has given you
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little OK granted – but how do they give to each other if not 2 distinct persons ?
Jevan Little
Troy Day I just answered that. God (Divine) gave to His human (God incarnate) Son.
Varnel Watson
that denote 2 distinct persons – just like you giving something to Miller Isaac and Billy Monroe Poff watching over yall
Miller Isaac
Troy Day blindness is a choice.
Varnel Watson
Miller Isaac it has proven a bad choice for you
Miller Isaac
Troy Day censorship
Varnel Watson
Miller Isaac will you be saying something theology related or just more spam?
Jevan Little
Or 2 distinct beings. Human and Divine
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little did you mean persons?
Jevan Little
Troy Day no.
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little yes you answered and then I asked – how do they give to each other if not 2 distinct persons ? They must be!
Jevan Little
I answered THAT. My answer to the topic answers THAT question you asked.
Miller Isaac
Jevan Little lol soo blindness propaganda and censorship!
Varnel Watson
still NOT clear how do they give to each other if not 2 distinct persons Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day Father and Son, both divine.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams but how does one person give something to another person except if they are 2 distinct persons?
Jevan Little
Troy Day how do they not if they are 2 beings?
Jevan Little
What is required? Dont say persons. Be specific
Jevan Little
Troy Day define person
Philip Williams
A person is a distinct individual as is each one of us. That’s because the Father through the Son made us in their own image.
Thus, the importance of the individual derives from faith in Jesus. Valuing the individual is the same as love.
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little pls give me a direct link to your answer I dont remember you answering this question Thanks
Jevan Little
Troy Day I repeat, my answer to this question is my first post.
Jevan Little
Define distinct individual.
Varnel Watson
now we need to define distinct and individual – next you will ask us to define what a person is
Jevan Little
No..not distinct and Individual. Distinct individual I already asked what a person is…his aswer is distinct individual which means nothing to me
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little to OP you answered
The father has a Divine will/mind. The Son has a human will/mind.
To which I asked
OK granted – but how do they give to each other if not 2 distinct persons ?
MEANING – your answer fails to address distinct person
WHAT do you mean by human/divine will?
DOES this denote one human and one divine person in the Trinity?
I would submit such claim to fall into Arianism Philip Williams Stephan Webb Billy Monroe Poff
Billy Monroe Poff
So Jesus is basically a schizophrenic with multiple personalities?? ?
Varnel Watson
yeah I didnt want to be the first one to put it this way
Billy Monroe Poff
Troy Day that’s basically what the oneness theology boils down to
Varnel Watson
well, we cannot explain the Trinity in human terms and condition – good starting point for debate Philip Williams
Jevan Little
That would be your God. 1 being with distinct personalities. Yikes. Btw the Son doesn’t have distinct personalities. Where did you see that?
Billy Monroe Poff
Jevan Little, you said, “God (Divine) gave to His human (God incarnate) Son. So you divided them into two. God (Divine) and human Son. So if there are two but yet you say that it is the same one and not another distinct person than that implies that the one has two personalities
Jevan Little
Billy Monroe Poff 2 what? I never said persons.
Billy Monroe Poff
In order for party A to give something to party B, it had to be understood that party B doesn’t currently have it but party A does. So how can party B receive something from party A that he didn’t have until party A gave it to Him if party A and party B were the exact same party?? You make absolutely zero sense
Stephan Webb
Jevan Little That would render every work of Jesus ineffective. Also, please do explain the very clear divine claims by Jesus in the 4th Gospel?
Varnel Watson
this question makes lots of sense to me as IN the past 2 weeks I’ve tried to ask about the statement of JESUS in the 4th Gospel – JOHN makes no mistakes in the distinct 2nd Person of the Trinity being DIVINE – 1 Jn even calls for antiChrist anathema on the ones who deny the divinity of the Word in flesh
Stephan Webb
John is DEEP! There is a clear claim to divinity throughout with the ‘I AM’ statements, but you must tie in the farewell discourse prayer of 17, and the Paraclete statements. Clear Trinity, and divinity of Christ!
Stephan Webb
My final work in grad school was on εγο ειμι
Varnel Watson
wishing Miller Isaac start getting deeper into it Stephan Webb LOVE the 7 εγο ειμι in JOHN You should PM me the text so we can publish it here for discussion if you wish
Stephan Webb
It’s on the absolute statement in 8:58…but I’ll send it to you
Jevan Little
No my answer doesn’t fail. It’s the answer to your question.
Also I asked a few times what a person is with no answer. What is it about 2 persons that fulfils the ability to give and receive?
Since Father and Son are distinct in Oneness I don’t see why the Father can’t give to the Son. Just saying the word person over and over isn’t an explanation
Jevan Little
Stephen Stephan WebbWebb. What would? Prove it.
Jesus is God incarnate. Why do I need to explain those claims?
Stephan Webb
Jevan Little so…he prayed to himself in John 17, promised to send ANOTHER comforter, and made himself equal with himself through the έγο ειμι statements. I’ve got it now…clear as mud.
Jevan Little
Stephan Webb he prayed to the Father
Jevan Little
He didnt make himself God. He is The God, incarnate. It’s clear when you don’t throw mud, try it
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little Miller Isaac the BIBLE never uses the words entity or oneness – This alone speaks volumes to Jesus-only
Jevan Little
So? It doesn’t use the words, trinity, God the Son or persons. In fact there is no Greek word for the modern Trinitarian versions of “Person”
Person comes from Persona, which means mask of an actor.
Persona comes from prosopon, face…
Jevan Little
Speaks volumes to the 3 Godders…btw we are not Jesus only. We are Oneness.
Stephan Webb
You still haven’t addressed…if Jesus prayed to the Father, how does His claims of divinity fit? He is more than human, and he prayed not to himself. Jesus did not have a human will/mind. If so, he would not have been tempted in every manner as we are, yet without sin. If so, he could not have been a sufficient sacrifice upon the the cross.
Stephan Webb
But I’ll leave it at this…the blood of Jesus saves us all, Jevan. I think we believe in the same Jesus despite differences in Oneness or Trinitarian doctrine.
I’ve seen Oneness folks never change their mind, and I’ve seen them decide there are grounds for the Trinity. The latter never happened through any way other than the Holy Spirit.
Jevan Little
It doesn’t. His prayers where from a genuine human nature. He prayed through His human will
Stephan Webb
Jevan Little see my last post. We will agree to disagree.
Jevan Little
Stephan Webb please read my topic. It explains a lot
Stephan Webb
Jevan Little I’m not unversed in Oneness doctrine and arguments, from laity and academic perspectives. But, I’ll re-read all that is here…
Jevan Little
Stephan Webb thank you
Jevan Little
Chalcedon says he did have a human mind. And you all call us heretics…lol
Stephan Webb
Jevan Little or you can try to keep arguing after an extended olive branch. I called you nothing…
Jevan Little
Stephan Webb not you, Troy and some others. I’m just responding to your posts ?
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little and you know that I have stayed with the topic but when you get rude spammers like Miller Isaac and the other guy what do you do? NOW to Chalcedon and the heresy – it is not me, us or whoever here – Modalism was called heresy A Damnable Heresy by the early church There was plenty of reason WHY
What makes a difference between classical Trinitarianism and Oneness theology is not simply persons/modes, but how the incarnation defines Father/Son. Trinitarians argue that Jesus was the Logos of God and that the Logos of God was incarnate while Oneness adherents simplify it to say that it was God incarnate. Trinitarians agree since the Logos is God, but uniquely so in relation to the Father and Spirit. Oneness theologians see this distinction as anti-biblical pointing out that we don’t see Father, Son, Spirit until the incarnation. BTW I demonstrated you have not yet answered the question in OP
Jevan Little
Troy Day does Jesus have a human will?
Jevan Little
Btw we have always seen God the Father and Holy Spirit in scriptures
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little The main problem comes in the incarnation IF we accept oneness incarnation we must admit GOD changes – well, He does NOT I believe you already admitted to that The Trinitarian model does not allow for changes within the perechoresis of the unchanging GOD –
the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.Again, this is why the Nicene Creed makes the important point that the Son was “begotten not made” [emphasis mine]. If this were a once-for-all begetting in time, then we would have to maintain with the Arian heresy that there was a time when the Son did not exist. So, describing the Son as eternally begotten guards against such false teaching. We also believe in the eternal generation of the Son, based on the eternality of the Father and the Son. In other words, because the Father and the Son are both eternal, the generation of the Son must, necessarily, be so as well.
The Latin term Filioque describes the Holy Spirit as proceeding from both the Father and the Son, (not from the Father only). In the Nicene Creed it is translated by the English phrase “and [from] the Son”: I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father ⟨and the Son⟩.
Jevan Little
Oneness doesn’t teach God changed. You created a strawman
Varnel Watson
Then explain how oneness god changes in the incarnation ? is the SON eternally begotten? Is the Spirit eternally proceeding from both the Father and the Son – you are NOT answering these questions for some odd reason
Jevan Little
Troy Day I just told you there is no change
Varnel Watson
How does the Son become the Son?
Jevan Little
Troy Day Yhwh became human while remaining God too by adding a human nature to Himself. His Deity is unchanged