Henry Volk [11/30/2015 8:54 AM]
I haven’t read the book, but I had listened to about all of the lectures from the conference. I think for the most part he and the other presenters were on point. However, I think his mostly-right conclusion is predicated on a faulty premise.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 8:54 AM]
here’s some more reviews http://cupandcross.com/5-more-reviews-of-macarthurs-strange-fire/
William Lance Huget [11/30/2015 1:08 PM]
B.B. Warfield influenced JM. John rightly attacks charismania, but throws the baby out with the bathwater (cf. earlier Charismatic Chaos). There is no exegetical basis for cessationism.
Henry Volk [11/30/2015 1:10 PM]
What William said.
William Lance Huget [11/30/2015 2:46 PM]
William Lance Huget [11/30/2015 2:46 PM]
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 3:26 PM]
Link Hudson [12/01/2015 1:14 AM]
Does he have a coherent argument in this one? The last one posited different time periods where gifts were active, assuming that the last days when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh fit into his theory of how miracles were distributed in the Old Testament, and that God was bound to act according to his theories about how God did miracles in history.
John Kissinger [12/01/2015 7:06 AM]
James L Alldredge [12/01/2015 8:31 AM]
The Pentecostal Restoration needs to become a Pentecostal Reformation, we have allowed false doctrine and practice to obscure and corrupt the message of pentecost. In the original pentecostal church the enemy offered a compromise with prosperity and popularity but those who promoted it were rejected and rebuked by the Apostles and the Spirit. Unfortunately, we have not followed their example. Macarthur is an enemy of pentecost, but it is often from one’s enemies that one’s weaknesses are revealed.
Ilya Okhotnikov [12/01/2015 9:05 AM]
John Kissinger [12/01/2015 11:07 AM]
James L Alldredge This was argued consistently in my brief 1999 book. It is fixing to come out in a 2nd expanded edition for the 2016 Azusa anniversary http://www.amazon.com/Pentecostal-Primitivism-Preserved-Donev-D-Min/dp/1477557539/
John Kissinger [12/02/2015 8:55 AM]
Did this with Hanny Setiawan Dennis Balcombe and @Marius Lombaard back in the day. Wish I knew Link Hudson Peter A Vandever and Joseph Castillo to include them at that them but it’s never too late for another round http://cupandcross.com/strange-fire-not-in-a-global-pentecostal-context-of-ministry/
Link Hudson [12/02/2015 1:54 PM]
John Kissinger I would have been honored.
What I’d say about ‘Strange Fire’ is that if having church differently from what the Bible teaches is analagous to offering strange fire in the tabernacle, then who is really offering strange fire? I Corinthians 14 is the only long chapter in the New Testament that tells us what to do in church. It allows for regular members of the congregation to sing and speak and use their gifts to edify others. The rule is that all things be done unto edifying.
Speakers in tongues are specifically allowed to speak if there is an interpreter. Prophets are specifically allowed to speak, “Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. The passage also says ‘For ye may all prophesy one by one….’ Paul presents all prophesying as a positive thing in the passage and encourages believers to prophesy.
If certain Reformed preachers want to redefine prophesying to refer to pulpit preaching of the word of God, as John MacArthur has deon in the past, then do these preachers actually obey their own interpretation and have two or three preachers or sermons per meeting? Are all allowed to preach one by one? I don’t accept the popular formed redefinition of ‘prophesy’ away from the Biblical understanding, but it seems that those who use this definition typically do not apply scripture within their own framework of interpretation when it comes to this passage.
If the ‘regulative principle’ is the right approach to church meetings, then we should follow what the Bible actually teaches directly about what to do in our gatherings. We should certainly allow tongues and interpretation, prophesying, and ‘regular believers’ to teach and edify the congregation. I can’t find the one-sermon, hymn sandwich meeting in scripture.
As far as my international experience with Peter Wagoner’s apostolic network, I don’t recall anyone being publicly touted as an apostle during my time in Indonesia, which included just short of 9 years between 1997 and 2007. There may have been believers who studied the issue out in scripture hwo realized that there were church planters, for example, who had this gift. The idea that you could name principalities after problems and then cast those principalities out by commanding them in the name of Jesus was rather popular. That was the area where Wagoner’s influence seemed the most obvious and to me, rather concerning.
John Kissinger [12/02/2015 1:55 PM]
perhaps is not to late too have P2. – have you read the book?
Link Hudson [12/02/2015 1:56 PM]
I was going to add that comment. I haven’t read the book, yet. 🙂 I saw his sermons from the conference.
John Kissinger [12/02/2015 5:13 PM]
yeah – that could be a little problem Rick Wadholm Jr