IS THERE a distinction between Israel and the Church?

IS THERE a distinction between Israel and the Church?
Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

IS THERE a distinction between Israel and the Church
and if so what is it?

Ricky Grimsley [01/30/2016 9:06 AM]
I think romans 11 explains that we are not israel. We are all different branches with the same “root”

John Kissinger [01/30/2016 9:11 AM]

Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 9:48 AM]
Basic Grammatical Historical Interpretation of scripture yields an Israel that was the people of God who had unconditional physical land, Kingdom and monarch promises.

When the majority rejected their King the people of God became the body of Christ composed of Jews and Gentiles.

However unbelieving Israel with land, kingdom and future king and future expectation of coming to belief in the Land persists.

Israel has land – the Church has no land.

Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 10:00 AM]
“Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Romans 11:25-29 ESV

Ricky Grimsley [01/30/2016 10:01 AM]
I personally believe now that the opposite is true. Blindness is coming on the gentiles that israel can be saved.

Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 10:13 AM]
“And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.””
Genesis 17:7-8 ESV

25 Comments

  • Troy Day
    Reply March 21, 2019

    Troy Day

    Link Hudson on of the most mis understood and mis interpreted approaches toward Mat 24 + Lk 21

  • Philip Williams
    Reply March 21, 2019

    Philip Williams

    No distinction in the eyes of Jesus.

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Troy Day

      oh come on now 🙂 other sheep I have as well

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day the shepherd of Israel’s flock are all Israel.

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Troy Day

      they eventually may become that BUT when Jesus spoke they were still sheep of another flock he had

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day Yes, those like Cornelius. Remember what the angel told him.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 22, 2019

      Link Hudson

      God is still provoking disobedient Israel to jealousy and they are still beloved for the sake of the patriarchs.

  • Philip Williams
    Reply March 21, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Romans 11 mentions Gentiles coming in to Israel. The Covenant was never based on biology and never will. Even the Old Covenant required circumcision and many Gentiles entered into Israel.

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Troy Day

      Romans also argues of ALL Israel saved in one day – something Augustine + Luther took pretty seriously 🙂

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day no. Not ‘and then, all Israel will be saved.’ That’s not what it says, but rather, ‘in this way all Israel will be saved.’ That is, by coming in to Israel. No other reading even makes sense.

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Troy Day

      about 99% translations say
      and in this way all Israel will be saved.
      https://biblehub.com/romans/11-26.htm

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 21, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day that’s right, but not ‘and then(!) all Israel will be saved.’ This points to the fact that bringing in the full number of Gentiles into Israel is the way that all Israel will be saved.

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 22, 2019

      Troy Day

      not if you believe they will be already taken in the rapture

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 22, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Where does Romans 11 call believing Gentiles grafted in Israel?

    • Troy Day
      Reply March 22, 2019

      Troy Day

      The natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17).

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 26, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson ‘until the full number of Gentiles come in’ [to Israel] is the way that all Israel will be saved.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      But it does not follow that they necessarily become Israel. ..’that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy’ Paul writes. James interprets Amos to mean God is taking from rthe Gentiles a people for Himself. If they were to become Israelites how would that be an argument against requiring Gentile circumcision?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 26, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson oh my! Does anyone actually read Romans?

      The Old Covenant though Moses ends with the death of Christ and the New Covenant also begins there. It’s the end of the Old Covenant that also ends the requirement for circumcision in the flesh to become part of Israel. Remember the New Covenant was promised to Israel, not to the Gentiles.

      Yes, as James mentions in his reference to Amos, Gentiles are grated into Israel. Actually Gentiles were being grafted into Israel from the time of Abraham by means of outward circumcision. The biological, racist, or cultural understanding of Israel is a modern one and completely contrary to the identity of Israel found in the Bible, which then meant one circumcised in the flesh.

      The first Christians were certainly Jews. What do you suppose happened to their descendants? When did their children cease to be Jews in the sight of God. Christianity began as a Jewish sect and Christians have always been the Israel of God.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Philip Williams James said this to Paul in Acts 21, and Paul went with the suggestion and paid the expenses of some men who were going to the temple to dispell the rumors:

      “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. . 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

      Acts 15 does not say Gentile Christians become Jews. James said, “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.” (Acts 15:14.)

      James and the Jerusalem Jewish Chrsitians were in favor of circumcising Jewish babies, but sided with Paul against Gentile circumcision… because of what they percieved the Spirit to be saying. Paul warned against circumcising Gentiles, opposing Judaizer activities in Galatians, but he circumcised Timothy who was the son of a Jewish mother.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Philip Williams There is also the cultural background. Jews may have been discussing the issue of the concept of a righteous Gentile. The Talmud records that a generation or so later, that Jewish scholars concluded that Gentiles could be righteous as sons of Noah, if they kept certain requirements that were similar to what the apostles wrote in Acts 15, no fornication, no idolatry, not eating meat off of live animals (compare to things strangled and from blood) and a few other requirements.

      Biblically, the covenant with Noah could be the basis for some of what we see in Acts 15. God gave Noah even creeping things to eat, so the Gentiles, as descendants of Noah, but not Israel, could eat them. But Noah was not allowed to eat blood. The Gentiles are to abstain from things strangled– animals killed without proper letting of the life’s blood of the animal, and from blood. Leviticus has a long list of sexual behaviors for which Gentiles were expelled from the land. And God created all men and made a covenant with our ancestor Noah, so we should worship him and not idols.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson oh believe me, I well know the Noahide teachings. Many years ago, I exposed the infamous James Tabor as a secret Noahide, pretending to be a secular Professor.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson Paul on circumcision:

      “No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.”
      ‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:29‬ ‭

      “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.”
      ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7:19‬ ‭

      “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”
      ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭

      “For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—”
      ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭

      “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,”
      ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭

      And so on. None that of Paul’s actions that you mention in any way contradict these teachings. But rather,

      “To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.”
      ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9:20‬ ‭

      Paul, the Jew, expressly declares himself not under the Law. Likewise, Peter ate with the Gentiles, which as his vision shows, meant eating things the Law declared as unclean. Mark says that Jesus declares all foods clean (under the New Covenant). Just how much does this issue need to be declared through the Scriptures, that the Law ended with the death of Christ!

      But if the Law doesn’t end there, why don’t the Jews still not stone their disobedient children and the Sabbath breakers as the Law requires?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Philip Williams your last question is a moot point. The Old Testament is full of stories aboutIsrael not keeping the Law.

    • Philip Williams
      Reply March 27, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson think, do you, that God requires today’s Jews to stone adulterers and rebellious children?

  • Troy Day
    Reply March 22, 2019

    Troy Day

    ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 11:26 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
    καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται Ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ Ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ. http://probible.net/romans-11-26/

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