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In short, here are some succinct differences to remember about the two events:
At the Rapture, Jesus comes for His saints. At the Second Coming He comes with His saints.
At the Rapture Jesus doesn’t come all the way to earth. At the Second Coming, His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives and He will reign on earth.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes with a blessing for His saints. At the Second Coming He brings judgment for those who have rejected Him.
The Rapture can happen at any moment, but we know the Second Coming happens seven years later.
THE BIBLE SAYS THAT JESUS WILL RETURN
I don’t think that I need to go to great lengths to back up the idea that the Bible says Jesus will return. Some lengths but not great ones.
• Matthew 24 and 25 are an overview from Jesus Himself. • Luke 21:27, “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Jesus speaking) • John 14:3, “And if I [Jesus] go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” • Acts 1:11, “…This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Angels at Jesus’ ascension) • Acts 7, Stephen’s survey of the Old Testament and the pattern of God’s representative being rejected first then accepted later, just like Jesus. • Revelation 19:11-21, Jesus returning on a white horse with armies. Now, here is the kicker. The reason that we have to ask the question is this: The above commonly quoted passages are not all talking about the same single event. To misquote Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride, “You keep on using that verse. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
OF RAPTURES AND RETURNS
Again, going to some lengths but not great lengths, here is how I see it. The rapture is not the same thing as the Second Coming. The reason it is confusing is because they both involve Jesus coming back, but in different ways and for different reasons.
THE RAPTURE IS A REUNION
So much to say, so little space. Please study this out for yourself. Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” I believe this is what Jesus is talking about in John 14:3. I believe this is what the angels are referring to in Acts 1:11. I believe it is what Paul is also talking about in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 when the dead are resurrected, but the living are “changed.” The living skip death and go right to resurrection bodies. When will the rapture happen? We don’t know. It could happen at any time. There is no sign or event that has to happen before the rapture happens. That isn’t the case for the Second Coming. But the rapture isn’t the event referred to when it comes to knowing the day and hour. The only thing that we know in terms of timing for the rapture is that it happens before the events that lead up to the Second Coming. Call it pre-trib, or pre-70th week of Daniel (see studies on Daniel 9:24-27), or pre-Revelation 6-19, this timeline makes the most sense to me when all the relevant scriptures are taken into account. The rapture is a reunion.
THE RETURN IS A REIGN
Jesus is referred to as the Son of Man, “…Coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” (Matthew 24:30), and “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory” (Matthew 25:31). From Luke 21:27, quoted above, and this Second Coming to rule and reign, no one knows the day or the hour when this is going to happen. And yet, this is the event that people claim to know when it will happen.
By my count in these two chapters of Matthew alone, Jesus says no less than four times that no one knows when this will happen (Matthew 24:36, 42, 44 and Matthew 25:13). He helps to make this clear with a number of parables. One thing that is clear is that the Second Coming, the return of Jesus, is to reign.
THEN WHY DID JESUS MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL?
If no one can know when Jesus will return with power and great glory, then why did Jesus go so over the top with all of the signs we are to look for regarding His return? Why did He warn us not to be deceived, tell us what the deceptions look like, and even point out the specific prophecy of the “abomination of desolation” (read Daniel 9-12) as a major landmark before His return? Because Jesus knows that we are prone to spend too much time trying to figure out when He will do what we want Him to do, that we won’t spend enough time doing the things He has called us to do.
REPRESENTATIVES AND REPRESENTATIONS
What has Jesus called us to do? I think Acts 1:4-8 illustrates our situation best. Jesus is trying to tell His disciples that the Holy Spirit is going to come and equip them for ministry as promised. But all that they are interested in is when Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel, also as promised. Sound familiar? Jesus has to redirect their focus, and ours, back to what we are supposed to be about.
“It is not for you to know times or seasons for which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:7-8, NKJV). We tend to make this a one-or-the-other situation. Either we should forget about being out there in that dirty, old world of sinners and watch for the signs of the times, or we should forget about all that end times bologna and get busy feeding, clothing and sheltering people. The Biblical reality, the Jesus reality, is that it is both. We are to watch for the signs so that we have a general idea of the little time we have left to be witnesses, to be representatives and representations of Jesus, to a lost and hurting world of sinners in need of the Savior.
WHAT DAY AND HOUR SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED WITH?
According to Jesus, knowing the day or the hour isn’t important. It isn’t even the point. The point, according to Jesus in Matthew 24-25, is this: • Be ready, unlike those in the days Noah. • Be faithful, unlike the self-serving servant. • Be wise, unlike the unprepared wedding party. • Be responsible, unlike the fearful and lazy servant. In other words, be a student of God’s word while being a servant of God’s people with the power of God’s Spirit. The better we do that, the more people will be prepared for that future unknown day and hour. For now, the day that we should be concerned with is today. The hour is now. “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). Who will you represent Jesus to today?
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire is missing the rapture and mixing it with resurrection because of simple lack of knowledge on BIBLICAL events Philip Williams Neil Steven Lawrence RichardAnna Boyce here it is what we must remember In short as some succinct differences to remember about the two events:
At the Rapture, Jesus comes for His saints. At the Second Coming He comes with His saints.
At the Rapture Jesus doesn’t come all the way to earth. At the Second Coming, His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives and He will reign on earth.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes with a blessing for His saints. At the Second Coming He brings judgment for those who have rejected Him.
The Rapture can happen at any moment, but we know the Second Coming happens seven years later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gne00JHnUCE&feature=emb_title
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day There is no WORD Rapture in entire Bible
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire actually there is The Greek word HARPAZZO means to grab to rapture as in 1 Thes 4 Do you need a lengthier explanation on paorusia and harpazzo I will be quite happy to provide in due time today
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day Its the second coming we are all waiting for nothing else. Anything else is unbiblical
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire At the Rapture, Jesus comes for His saints. At the Second Coming He comes with His saints.
At the Rapture Jesus doesn’t come all the way to earth. At the Second Coming, His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives and He will reign on earth.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes with a blessing for His saints. At the Second Coming He brings judgment for those who have rejected Him.
The Rapture can happen at any moment, but we know the Second Coming happens seven years later.
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day Which scripture is that which the LORD comes with His saints. And from where.
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day when does this event in Rev 19:14 happens and it doesn’t indicate anyone coming down to earth.
Rich Palmer
Wilfred Bwire so you believe all born again Christians will be here for the entire tribulation?
Wilfred Bwire
Rich Palmer Yes that’s what the scripture says no single scripture says anyone will escape tribulation the only thing believers will escape is the wrath of GOD which happens shortly after the church is taken as evident in Tev 15
Rich Palmer
Wilfred Bwire ok let me get this straight. You state believers will escape the wrath of God. Do you believe the tribulation is part of the wrath of God?
Wilfred Bwire
Rich Palmer Tribulation and wrath of GOD are not same thing.
Rich Palmer
Wilfred Bwire so then what do you feel the tribulation is?
Wilfred Bwire
Rich Palmer Tribulation starts from daniels 70th week the first 3 and half weeks and great tribulation the second leg . Then after only those who takes the mark of the beast the wrath of GOD comes upon them Rev 15
Brown Nnama
Troy Day Harpazo means to kidnapped or to abduct, rapture is a false teaching, not in the Bible at all
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer in revelation 13:7 power was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. The saints are still on earth during the great tribulation, the saints will be taking away immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer tribulation is not the wrath of God at all. In John 16:33 Jesus said, in me you shall have peace, but in the world, you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world. In revelation 2 the church at Smyrna was cast into prison by the devil to suffer tribulation for ten days, but encouraged them to faithful unto death.
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama so a few things. Those verses do not negate a “rapture.” After the rapture, more people will be saved. These people are also considered saints. The beast will have the power to wage war on them.
Matthew does not tell us the saints will be taken immediately after necessarily. It says the aunts will be gathered. This still does not negate scriptures supporting any sort of rapture.
Rich Palmer
Wilfred Bwire so the breaking of seals, the blowing of the trumpets, the pour of bowls are not part of God’s wrath and judgement? Is that what you are saying?
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama so you don’t considered the blowing of trumpets, the breaking of seals, and the pouring of bowls a part of Gods wrath and judgement?
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer tribulation is the severe persecution from the world system of government ruled by the Antichrist against our Faith in Christ, it is only the faithful believers in Christ Jesus who will hold unto their faith, and refused to worship the beast and his image just like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the land of Babylon.
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama I’m not disagreeing about persecution. I’m asking you do you believe the trumpets blown, seals broken, and bowls poured out during the tribulation are a part of God’s wrath and judgement.
Wilfred Bwire
Rich Palmer The Holy bible indicates when the wrath of GOD starts and what its specifically when it starts Rev 15 whole chapters it’s not much and middle of it when the wrath starts and in Rev 16 it’s all describes the specifics. And that’s the wrath of GOD nothing else. Actually the wrath of GOD it’s all the bowls for those who will take the mark of the beast and none will he saved as none repented REV 16 read to the end
from the wrath of GOD unlike the great tribulation MULTITUDE which nio man could count will be saved Rev 7:9-17 and also Rev 20:4-6 many are saved from the great tribulation and going to heaven. I hope you read and get the point bro.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer there no place rapture is mean in the Bible. (2) Any body that missed the harvest of the Lord has no second opportunity. (3) How can God or the Bible called those who missed your rapture because of sin saints? (4) go and read the parable of the ten virgins, immediately the door was closed, no second opportunity. (5) read also the parable of the good seed and bad seed in Mathew 13,
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer you don’t understand the meaning of the seal, the seal is the secret of what will happen from the beginning of the great tribulation, to the time the saints will be taking away to heaven, down to the time God will pour out his wrath upon those who were left behind. From seal 1 to seal 5 is the great tribulation, from seal 6 the judgment of God was revealed, still in the seal 6 the saints was taking to heaven, then seal no 7 is the seven trumpet of the wrath of God that will be poured upon those who were left behind, because the saints were taking away in seal no 6. Revelation 7:9-end.
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama why are you avoiding answering my question and then want a response to yours?
Jone Varea
Rapture is a well fabricated lie
Varnel Watson
the BIBLE is NO lie but you may be as well
Willard Onellion
Troy Day since the PreTrib Rapture is not taught in the Bible then I agree with Jone Varea
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea so you believe all born again Christians will be here for the entire tribulation?
Ray Levick
Troy Day The problem is that the Lord is coming down with angels and saints and fan fare.What next? He picks us up and then they all go back up again????
As he was coming DOWN he comes down for the General Judgement. In John 11:25 Martha says “ I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the LAST DAY
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer yes, except those who will die before the great tribulation.
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer yes we all will go thru tribulations but God’s people will come victories just like when Israel came out of Egypt after the plagues…they were never harmed…..read Rev 7:13,14 …these are they that came out of the great tribulation…Rev 7:1-4 before the tribulations happen God will seal his people and they will come out victories
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea if you use revelation 7 the question becomes do you believe revelation to be in a chronological order of events?
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer not really in few cases
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer but look at ancient Israel and how they came out of Egypt victories after the plagues into the land of milk and honey
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea when do you consider not to be an order of events and why?
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea I understand Israel went through persecution.
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer mind you the lord will seal his people at the end time before the tribulation
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea what do you define as the tribulation?
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer read rev 7:13,14 they came out of the tribulations. …they are the ones that did not worship the beast and the image they were sealed by God and came out victories
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea that’s not what I asked you. I asked you if you felt revelation was in chronological order and if not, why?
Jone Varea
Rich Palmer if you follow the events of the book you’ll notice a few are not in order…. but the events do not contradict
Jone Varea
The events may be shown to John at different times…or it may be the way John wrote the events
Rich Palmer
Jone Varea such as?
Jone Varea
What is your point….is it connected to the tribulations
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire The English term rapture comes from the Latin word rapere which means “to seize.” The translator of the Latin Vulgate chose this term to translate the Greek verb harpazo (to catch away) in I Thessalonians 4:17. The term advent comes from the Latin word adventus which means “arrival.” The Latin Vulgate uses this term to translate the Greek term parousia. Prior to the mid 1940s, pretribulationists generally viewed the Greek words parousia (“coming”), epiphaneia (“appearing”), and apokalupsis (“revelation”) as technical terms specifying distinct phases of the return. They interpreted parousia as Christ’s appearance in the sky including the Rapture of the church to meet Him in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). By contrast epiphaneia and apokalupsis referred to the return of Christ to earth with His saints following the Great Tribulation (2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Peter 1:7) The Greek word harpazo has the strong-number 726 and appears 14 times in the New Testament (NT) (Mat 11:12; 12:29; 13:19; John 6:15; 10:12,28,29; Acts 8:39; 23:10; 2Cor 12:2,4; 1Thess 4:17; Jude 1:23 and Rev 12:5). The English word “rapture” is derived from the Latin translation of the Greek harpazo (=to seize, catch up, snatch away, rapture; e.g. in 1Thess 4:17). The Vulgate uses the word “rapiemur” for “we are being raptured”, which is derived from the Latin verb rapio (I seize, I snatch away,I remove, I kidnap, I save, obtain by robbery) and rapto (participle of seize, kidnap). The Latin verb raptare or rapere means to rob, snatch away, seize, snatch, capture, drag away and raptura is the participle of to seize, to kidnap. In Acts 8:39 rapuit (= robbed, seized, raptured) is used accordingly and in Revelation 12:5 raptus (rapture, abduction) is used. So the corresponding Greek and Latin word for “The Rapture” has been in the Bible for 2,000 years, and is not a modern invention, as some theologians wrongly assert. The word therefore means nothing other than being taken hastily or with haste, as if a child were hastily taken away (raptured, protected) from an approaching car, or quickly snatched or torn out of a flowing river. The chosen ones are also suddenly torn out of this world (raptured), just before the danger arises and can cause damage.
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day Rapture and second coming are same thing no difference and the first RESURRECTION are all same thing.no difrrence
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day Great analysis!
Brown Nnama
Troy Day Harpazo and rapere means to kidnapped or to abduct, please make research very well, or you consult your English dictionary.
Christian Isaac
Brown Nnama depends on context?
Varnel Watson
Brown Nnama you are right my brother Doesnot depend on context The BIBLE context is clear
Stacy Turbeville
No. It all happened on the last day of the Old Covenant Age initiating the New Covenant Age. The New Covenant Age wasn’t in effect until the city and Temple were done away with (Daniel 9:24-27, 12:1-7,13/ Hebrews 9:8).
Varnel Watson
you agree with this ? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Jesus’s Second Coming is a baptism of fire. Only those who are pure in heart will survive this Second Coming which destroys everything that isn’t of God.
David Allen Stryker
Darbyism is false.
Varnel Watson
thank for this is NOT Darbyism but the BIBLE
Jerry Gabo
Rapture and second coming are two different events. Second coming has 2 stages. First stage “caught up”(rapture/latin rapturo)of His church in the air. Second he comes for his nation Israel together wd his saints to reign a thousand yr.
Wilfred Bwire
Jerry Gabo You very Wrong Read you Bible very Well. Rev 20:4-6 says when will Rapture happen who will go to Millennium and after Millennium what happens after in Rev 20:7-8
Jerry Gabo
Wilfred Bwire you are very much wrong reread your bible very well. 1thes 4:13-18; 5:9, 1cor. 15:51-53 then Eze. 36:16-38; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21 rapture and second coming have diff places in Gods world plan.
Wilfred Bwire
Jerry Gabo Rapture and second coming are one thing and for you info the is nothing in Bible called Rapture. We are all waiting for the second coming of Jesus which will happen after the great tribulation
Neil Steven Lawrence
Wilfred Bwire I have read your comments. You have totally ignored Troy Day analysts of the two different words for rapture & 2nd coming. You are “ever hearing but never coming to the knowledge of the truth!!!!!” Rev. 14:14f is another reference to the Rapture which few quote, and one you know nothing about. How stupid is the picture you and other post-tribbers imagine: Jesus will call ALL the saints up in the Rapture and then one second later everyone will come down in the 2nd coming. This is schizophrenic !!!
Wilfred Bwire
Neil Steven Lawrence What you all cant figure out is REV 20:4-6 you can’t whats the first RESURRECTION.
Varnel Watson
there you go Jerry Gabo you can tell Wilfred Wachira is lost or maybe even left behind
Richard Ramey
Jerry Gabo
2 seperate gatherings do not match jesus stories about the event.
Wheat & tares.
Fishes in net.
Seperate sheep from goats.
10 virgins.
Kings wedding robes.
All show one time event of gatheting saints.
All are about the same event.
SK Kujur
Those who can’t see the difference are certainly see His second coming after the tribulation.
Wilfred Bwire
SK Kujur And thats the biblical trueth.
SK Kujur
Wilfred Bwire The truth of the Bible is in its place, the question is whether we are able to see and understand it, or whether we are arguing over it.
Wilfred Bwire
SK Kujur if we read the word and digest by our helper the HOLY SPIRIT will convict us into understanding the truth and set us free.
SK Kujur
Wilfred Bwire What do you think I am reasoning with the knowledge of words? Or with the help of that comforter? Try to recognize God’s grace, everything will be correct.
Varnel Watson
everyone is welcome to be left behind
Nancy Sampson
The second coming is the rapture I believe
Wilfred Bwire
Nancy Sampson Absolutely
Varnel Watson
false belief NOT the Bible
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer there no place it written in the Bible, that left behind still have second opportunity, no place it is written in the Bible that the saints will be taking away before the great tribulation. Act 14:22 for we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. But we are not appointed to the wrath of God.
Robert M. Wilkins
Rapture is bad theology. Ty John Nelson Darby.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer please which question? Come again
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama tribulations are mentioned many times in the Bible. This does not necessarily pertain to the great tribulation.
Yes I do understand what the seals are. Of course the seals tell us what happens. They each are a judgement against the Earth.
You now just admitted to a mid tribulation rapture. In the middle of the seals being broken God then takes the saints to Heaven and then finishes opening the seals. If there’s no rapture, who’s actually left behind?
Kihoshe Assumi
Rapture and Second coming are two different incidents, believers are caught up in rapture and believers are descendent at second coming with Christ for Millennial kingdom.
Wilfred Bwire
Kihoshe Assumi nothing like that in scripture it’s all same thing no. Difference. Read Rev 20:4-6
Kihoshe Assumi
Wilfred Bwire it seems you don’t understand the Bible.
Wilfred Bwire
Kihoshe Assumi please educate me which scripture states the two are different. And when do both occur. Coz as per my knowledge of scripture Rev 20:4-6 puts it all clear l.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer may be it very difficult for you to understand me, there 7 seal in revelation 6. First to fifth seal is during the great tribulation, in seal no6 the saints was taking away to heaven revelation 7:9-end. Then seal no 7 which is the seven trumpet of the wrath of God did not happened during the great tribulation, it happened after the great tribulation, immediately the saints is taking to heaven.
Juanita War
Jesus will come as a Bridegroom to snatch His Bride, the Church, from danger at the catching up/rapture. He’ll come as conquering King and executor of Judgment at the Second Advent.
Wilfred Bwire
Juanita War Which scripture states that JESUS will come secretly and snatch His bridegroom.
Juanita War
Wilfred Bwire John 14. Biblical Jewish marriage custom of the bridegroom fetching his bride. No one knows the day or the hour, only the Father of the groom who will say, son, it’s time to bring the bride home. Parable of Jesus coming as a thief in the night, unexpected, only 5 were ready.
Wilfred Bwire
Juanita War So which marriage does the bridegroom comes secretly the bridegroom us seen by all and marriage have to seen by all. Nothing in secret.
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu
Wilfred Bwire you’re entitled to your own theology, only you have the right to change it, so go and educate yourself and believe what you wanna believe. Challenging others for the sake of accepting yours has no benefit because it looks like you’re lost.
Wilfred Bwire
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu am not challenging anyone to accept anything I have directed them to read the scriptures that disprove their theories am no fan of theology I speak scripture and thats the WORD of GOD which they they are not ready to accept and be set free.
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu
Wilfred Bwire yes that is from your point of view, that they needed to be freed from their belief, exactly what Iam saying. You’re confused. For your information, Theology is the study of God, anything about God is Theology.
Wilfred Bwire
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu theology is full of carnality you need the HOLY SPIRIT to teach you all things about GOD not theology.
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu
Wilfred Bwire , you mean the study of God is full of carnality? On the other hand how can one have revelation about God without the Holy Spirit?Word Check yourself. I think you don’t understand the meaning of the Word Theology. Please take a hike
Wilfred Bwire
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu you dont need theology to know the word of GOD and its mistry, theology is not entertained in knowing the scriptures. Theology misleads. Only the HOLY SPIRIT is advised to teach us ALL THINGS IN SCRIPTURE. AND BIBLICALLY NO SCRIPTURE ADVISES US TO USE THEOLOGY TO STUDY SCRIPTURE, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHI CAN NEVER BE WRONG. SHALOM.
Meresiana Cika Bainivalu
Wilfred Bwire hahahaha you’re contradicting yourself. My dear you can stop right there because you don’t make any sense. When you study scripture that is theology. You don’t get it, but your conclusion is your theology or understanding about God. You can be right or wrong, who cares. That’s you and how you view God. When you say you don’t need theology that is exactly your Theology, get it?Okay I rest my case, it seems we are talking on different wave lengths.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer what is tribulation and what is great tribulation? What is multitude and what is great multitude? They are all the same, the only different is that one is much more than the other, so it is called great tribulation because it will be much more than what we have be experiencing.
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin
The word rupture is not in the bible is manmade doctrine they teach that christ will come and start stealing people in secret but the bible teaches that when Jesus come every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7
Wilfred Bwire
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin Amen.
Nancy Sampson
Yes I agree with you. This nonsense about pilots suddenly disappearing and planes falling out of the sky and driverless cars because the people have been ‘raptured’ is make believe. Please God when Christ comes all will know about it.
Varnel Watson
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin The Word Trinity is NOT in the BIBLE are you NOT trinitarian heretic? Wilfred Bwire Nancy Sampson The word rapture in Greek is harpazzo and IS in the Bible at least 16 times related to the rapture of the church
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin
Wilfred Bwire one subject at a time pls
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin
Troy Day
Wilfred Bwire
Nancy Sampson Yes all will no about it nothing secrect. GOD works in the light we all know who works in the dark.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer make more search in the Bible, and you will discover that there is a different between the great tribulation and the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the severe persecution from the world system of government ruled by the Antichrist against our Faith in Christ Jesus, while the wrath of God is the punishment or judgment of God against the sinners and the unbelievers, just as it was in the days of lot in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Bob Jones
Yes
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama God allows this great tribulation. He gives power over to the world system and then opens his seals to judge and bring wrath upon it. It’s literally described just as that.
A tribulation can just mean a difficult time of persecution. The great tribulation is where God turns over power to the world and then opens his seals to judge and punish it. War, famine, death, terror etc.. This is described as the worst the world has ever seen by Daniel. Why? Gods seals bringing judgement and wrath.
Ofelia Isidro Labro
Sir Troy there are 2 phase of 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, 1st in the AIR or Clouds ☁️, 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 2nd bodily/visibly Acts 1:11 and many more verses, thank you ?
Varnel Watson
you got that right
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer no my brother, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the severe persecution from the world system of government ruled by the Antichrist against our Faith, read Mathew 24:21, Acts 14:23, Romans 8:35-end.
Leo Leeder
Yes! They are seven years apart.
Varnel Watson
you got that right
Jackie Marmolejo
No
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama
Matthew 24:21 completely coincides with Daniel 12:1
Matthew 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.”
Daniel 12:1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.”
It tells us at the Tribulation those saved will be rescued. Not after.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day that’s not true
Frank M Snyder Sr.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1630732974?tag=duckduckgo-ipad-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
Richard Ramey
2 different gatherings of saved, a second chance for eternity only to those at end time (no one else in earth’s history) does not line up with jesus own stories about the event he was explains about.
Wheat & tares.
Fishes on net.
Seperate sheep & goats.
10 virgins.
Kings wedding robes.
All show a one time gathering of saints and I be time seperate of wicked
Philip Williams
“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” Hebrews 9:28
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce claims NO repentance is needed whatsoever PLUS more free calvin stuff
Alan Yusko
yep..
Varnel Watson
Wal Ters when the WORD is given with sufficient explanation to make conclusions contrary to your occult beliefs and ALL you can respond is one word fake news false accusation without ANY proof, you may need to examine if your belief is not unBiblical if not heretical For it is clear you aint got nothing else to say
Wal Ters
Troy Day Eisegesis. Period.
this is just one word comment, I know, but a lot of study and prayer behind.
EISEGESIS. PERIOD.
Steve Conley
It is the Greek word “parousia” that is used 17 times in the NT of Christ’s singular future coming, His second. It means arrival and continuing presence. It is present in those texts that are associated with the catching up of the church and those texts speaking of Christ coming in glory and power to pour out His wrath upon the wicked.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
It is at Christ’s arrival upon the first day of His parousia that He gathers His own to Himself.
The second coming is a huge event that lasts through the millennium, but the rapture is just our ride into the clouds.
Varnel Watson
The term parousia refers to the Second Coming of the
Lord, but the Second Coming is not just one event taking place at a particular
time. Rather it is made up of a series of events. We can understand which event is
referred to only by a careful examination of the context in which the terms
parousia or erchomai (to come) occur . Coming were mentioned above in the definition of parousia: epiphaneia and apokalupsis.
The third is phaneroo, meaning, “to make apparent, manifest, known, show openly Revelation, uncovering, unveiling, disclosure. One of three words referring to the
Second Coming of Christ . . . The other two words are epiphaneia, appearing . . .
and parousia, coming, presence . . . Apokalupsis, a grander and more
comprehensive word, includes not merely the thing shown and seen but the
interpretation, the unveiling of the same. The epiphaneiai (pl.), appearances, are
contained in the apokalupsis, revelation, being separate points or moments
therein. Christ’s first coming was an epiphaneia (2 Tim 1:10); the second, an
apokalupsis, will be far more gloriousThe Greek word used in this verse translated
“coming,” is parousia. Paul goes on to specifically describe the events involved in this
parousia. The Lord Jesus “will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the
archangel, and the trumpet of God.” Vincent points out that this is the only place in
Scripture that uses the phrase “descend from heaven” to speak of the Second Coming.
The word parousia, on the other hand, has voluminous uses by the Fathers. It is
used to communicate: (1) presence in general, seven times; (2) the universal presence of Logos, six times; (3) presence of the Holy Ghost, three times; (4) arrival, appearance,
personal visit or advent in general, nine times; (5) of entry into corporeal life of pre-
existent souls, three times; (6) of Jesus’ First Advent (Incarnation), twenty-five times; (7)
as a coming judgment by Chrysostom in his Homily 28.1 in John; (8) in both the first and
second advents, five times; (9) in the future (second) advent, twenty-five times; (10) the
advent of Christ’s kingdom, foretold by the prophets, one time; (11) of the advent of the
Holy Ghost, four times; and (12) of the advent of antichrist, one time.29 Of the citations
dealing with the “future advent of Christ,” some seem to deal with the Rapture, some
seem to deal with the Second Coming, and some could be either/or.
From these many varied uses of parousia by the Fathers it is clear that it was not a
term specifically reserved for use in conjunction with the Rapture, as Paul chose to use it.
It appears to be an all inclusive term to represent all the events surrounding the Second
Coming (Advent) of the Lord Jesus Christ (including the Rapture of the Church). This
was also the conclusion of both James F. Stitzinger, in his article, “The Rapture in
Twenty Centuries of Biblical Interpretation” and Gerald B. Stanton, in his book, Kept
From the Hour
Steve Conley
Troy Day You said, “It appears to be an all inclusive term to represent all the events surrounding the Second
Coming (Advent) of the Lord Jesus Christ (including the Rapture of the Church).” That is a true statement, however, it is inconsistent with the primary underpinnings of pretribulationism.
There is only one future parousia of Christ, His second. It is on the very first day of His parousia that the rapture takes place. In the list below Christ’s parousia begins with point #8
The proper order of events in the seventieth week is:
1) The covenant confirmed (Dan 9:27).
2) The beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8; Rev 6:1-6). [Note: nowhere does it say that the beginning of sorrows begins in the seventieth week, but we assume it to. Jesus does, however, connect it to the great tribulation with the word “then”, and the GT begins in the middle of the week. With certainty, we can say that “the beginning of sorrows” ends when the great tribulation begins. And with certainty we can say that the generation that sees the beginning of sorrows events will witness Christ’s arrival after the GT (Matt 24:34).]
3) The abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-4).
4) The unprecedented persecution of the elect and ethnic Israel in the great tribulation (Matt 24:9-29; Rev 6:7-11).
5) The apostasia, the falling away, a notable departure from the faith takes place (Matt 24:10-11, 24; 2Thes 2:3)
6) God uses a great earthquake to cut the great tribulation short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22, 29; Rev 6:12-14; Isa 2:19).
7) The cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark, that heralds the arrival of Christ, which initiates the day of the Lord, appears (Joel 2:31; Isa 13:6-11; Matt 24:29; Acts 2:20; Rev 6:12-17).
8) Jesus appears in the clouds of Heaven with the mighty angels to reveal Himself to all the world (Matt 24:30; Rev 1:7; 2Thes 1:7; 1Cor 1:7; 1Pet 1:7; Luke 17:30).
9) Christ raises the dead who are his (1Cor 15:23; 1Thes 4:15-17; Dan 12:1-2; Rev 20:4-6).
10) Christ changes the living believers who survived the great tribulation (1Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:21).
11) Christ gathers us all to himself in the clouds via the angels (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31; 2Thes 2:1).
12) Christ escorts us to the Father’s house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17).
13) The 144,000 are sealed (Rev 7:1-8).
14) God begins to pour out His wrath in recompense upon those Beast worshiping earth-dwellers who persecuted us unto death (Rev 8, 9 16-19; 2Thes 1:6-10; 1Thes 5:2-3; Isa 34:8).
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley why are you copy pasting the same thing? I read it already it didnt make sense the first time and makes even less theological sense that I read it again now What you present is simple circular logic Your idea is true because the idea behind your idea is true which is true because your idea is true Dancing in circles is NO way to do theology Just spit your heresy up already and be done I gave you the clear GREEK behind the pre-trib Rapture backed by most early Church Fathers Now deal with it – if you dont understand ask questions BUT pls deal with it
Varnel Watson
when the WORD is given with sufficient explanation to make conclusions contrary to your occult beliefs and ALL you can respond is one word fake news false accusation without ANY proof, you may need to examine if your belief is not unBiblical if not heretical For it is clear you aint got nothing else to say
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley somewhere in your many copy pasts today you changed your original stance from whatever it was to now copy stuff that proves PRE-trib rapture of the church; So basically you ended up saying exactly what Ive been saying ALL week Thank you
Steve Conley
Troy Day, I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem very confused.
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley Actually I do and I have 2 doctoral degrees to prove it So how about you? Seems you are lost
Steve Conley
Troy Day Good for you. However, all that work and money seems to have only indoctrinated you deeply into the pretrib dispensational system. You can still be recovered from it. Nothing is impossible with God. I spent 30 years teaching it before the Lord opened my eyes to see around the filter that system placed upon my understanding of the Scriptures.
Can you recognize the difference between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord?
What do the Scriptures say concerning the timing of both of those in relation to the cosmic sign of the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars?
Since you have two doctoral degrees one would assume that you have intimate knowledge of all the pertaining texts so it is unnecessary for me to provide them. But perchance your PH.Ds are in recreation and leisure studies or animal husbandry, maybe I should give you the references. Na, you can ask if you need them.
Can you answer these 2 elementary questions? Your answers will largely determine the veracity of your eschatological model.
Varnel Watson
Oh WOW Steve why am I NOT surprised one bit You wake up early before the sunrise without any theological ammo left and ALL you can do is attack me as a person, my education and smear me with your snarky remarks. Guess what that does not change that I still got 2 earned phds on top of you and still believe pre-Trib rapture and can actually prove it with the BIBLE in its original – that was my point and you missed it again
YES I can answer your 2 questions, and 20 and possible ALL questions you may have on eschatology but to what avail? You openly deny the BIBLE in its original tongue when presented to you, you reject the Church Fathers in their trinitiran approach toward the eschatological advent of our King and pre-Trib rapture of the church So before I spent more time answering your so called questions, can you tell me what is the end game? What is your online interrogation game of 2, 12 22 or 200 question going to change for you? Will you continue to be stubborn in your ignorance of the BIBLE? Obviously my answers will not change your mind. Obviously I already answered many of your and others questions with the Bible, original Greek, church fathers church history and end time eschatology SO before I invest more time today, what is your end game here and why are you playing it as you are still planning to be left behind?
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer to rescue means to be delivered, to be delivered means to be preserved, it does not mean that the holy one will be taking out of the world. In Daniel 7:12 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the rivers, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times and half, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things be finished. So the holy people, which are the saints are still on the earth. In Mathew 24:21-22 For then shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh be saved, but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. From hear also you will see that the holy people which are the elects are still on the earth.
Rich Palmer
Brown Nnama it’s a direct reference to Daniels 70th week (the tribulation)
Varnel Watson
Rich Palmer and the church taken bedfore it
Steve Snyder
Yes makes perfect biblical sense
RichardAnna Boyce
Hebrews 9:27-28 Whereas the benefit of Christ’s first coming was to bear the sins of many, the benefit of His Second Coming is for salvation. Obviously what the author means by salvation in this context is something different than the atonement for sins that Christ provided in His first coming. This salvation needs to be seen in light of the broader context of Hebrews, an eschatological salvation wherein the faithful share in the dominion over creation with Christ (cf. 2:5-8). Yet, just as the eternal inheritance in 9:15 was conditional, so here the author seems to imply that this “salvation” is conditional (or limited to a smaller circle than all the redeemed). It is for those believers who eagerly wait for Him (from the verb apekdechomai, used seven times in the NT in regard to the Second Coming of Christ; see esp. Phil 3:20 and 1 Cor 1:7). This term is contrasted with the “many” who benefit from His bearing their sins. In this Second-Coming salvation Christ will “smite the nations” (Rev 19:15), deliver the world from the bondage of Satan, and bring in a new order of righteousness in which faithful believers will reign with Him and receive their inheritance in the “greater rest.” Thus they “inherit salvation,” to use the words of Heb 1:14. Part of the secret to faithfully enduring in the Christian life is to be eagerly awaiting the return of our Lord Jesus.
Rich Palmer
Troy Day yes when the trib begins the church goes
Claro Magallanes
No, there is no difference for the coming of the Lord is the rapture according to Paul.
Brown Nnama
Rich Palmer Daniel 70 weeks is not great tribulation, read revelation 13:1-end, Daniel 7:1-end. Daniel 12:1-end. Mathew 24:1-29. Luk 21.
Sam Addison
There’s no rapture…only the second coming! John Darby made up the rapture doctrine.
Varnel Watson
such fake news Whoever made that needs to repent right the way Deeply misinformed and degenerated
Mark Wayne Moyers
Yes
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire I cant find the comment where Meresiana Cika Bainivalu told you you are confused but this is like the 5th person telling you the same thing today You should take heed in the word of the LORD Draw back a bit, take time to study, come back when you are ready for this test and please stay rapture ready
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day I really dont care if a billion people cannot accept the true WORD of GOD including you. Because you have believed false doctrine and would not accept the truth in the scriptures. REV 7:9-17 Disqualify pre trib Rev 20:4-6 as well. GOD is no Author of confusion let all men liars and GOD be true. So chose GOD and His word over people. In short Great tribulation is coming soon 17th Sept 2020 starts the last 7yrs of tribulation and all of us will be hear the man of lawlessness will be here terrorizing everyone not covered in the second leg of the stated years and none will be Raptured until the years are completed. One day you will remember. Shalom.
Larry Shannon
Who invented the Rapture?
Answer Wiki. Around 1590, Francisco Ribera’s futurism philosophy from his work “In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij” persuaded people to place some historic events in the future. That work created the initial concept of the “Rapture”.
http://www.renewedminds2purehearts.com/uploads/5/8/3/6/5836053/rapture_doctrine.pdf
http://freestockphotos.com/COMING1/DarbysInvention.htm#:~:text=John%20Nelson%20Darby%20%E2%80%93%20Invented%20the%20doctrines%20of,many%20Evangelical%20leaders%20of%20the%20late%2019th%20century.
SK Kujur
God’s secret plans are not for those who want to know and understand him according to the wisdom of words. But for those who truly love him and walk according to his will. Rapture is not an invention of anyone, you can name anything from your understanding, but do not mistake it to be a theology of humans. Read carefully and understand what is the meaning of the holy words, see for yourself where you are standing.
1 Thessalonians 4: 17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Wilfred Bwire
SK Kujur And this is second we will meet the LORD JESUS when He comes again. First He came as a lamb to die He is coming again the second time to take us home. Simple and clear. Shalom.
Michael Hodgson
There is no rapture
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson You are absolutely right, for those who cannot see and understand this truth.
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur for all
Michael Hodgson
And yes I am correct
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur show me the Rapture in the Bible
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson It is true that the word Rapture is not in the Bible, (the word Trinity or Oneness is also not in the Bible). But you decide yourself what word would you give to this event?
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur so where is the actual Rapture event in this passage
Michael Hodgson
And when iis it according to this passage
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur what are the 2 requirements to be “raptured” according to this passage
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson If you are understanding this event, then you will gradually understand the remaining things. The words of the Bible are not found in one place. By linking different words, a particular thing is understood and concluded. So, I will not be able to explain it in one place and one line right now, but for this you also have to search and investigate yourself.
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson
Please read this :
Hebrews 11: 5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur okay I’ll check that out but just if you would from this passage that set before us right now according to this passage that you posted what are the two requirements necessary in order to be raptured
Michael Hodgson
Paul States it right in the passage that you provided
Michael Hodgson
We which are …..
Michael Hodgson
Do you see it friend
Michael Hodgson
So my question is would everyone today qualify for the rapture
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur friend?
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson Wait a while, I have to go somewhere. I will return and try to give you the right answer.
Michael Hodgson
Are you there I’m trying to have a conversation with you
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur okay well it’s very late in the evening I may not be here when you get back I was just wondering if you can tell me the answer to my questions have very simple straightforward question again I’ll ask it what are the two requirements that the apostle Paul laid out in the passage that you provided in order to be raptured what are the two requirements that each person must qualify for it follows the following words now we who…..
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur such a simple question I would think a man like yourself with such a vast understanding of end time events would be able to answer that for me
Michael Hodgson
You’re really just need to keep reading the sentence now we who
Michael Hodgson
Areee
Michael Hodgson
What are the next three words friend it will literally take you three seconds to answer
Michael Hodgson
Now we who are …..
Michael Hodgson
I sincerely do not understand why you can’t answer I’m very confused and disappointed
Michael Hodgson
Even hurt
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur woww
Laurie Lombard
Michael Hodgson
You are 100% correct Michael.
Sunday Okafor
Yes at rapture the believers who are holy serving their Lord will be taken but second coming all eyes shall see him I Thessalonians 4 v13 to 18 for brethren
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson My brother, the word of God I presented to you, if the reference is wrong then tell me again. Now why do you ask me, you know, or should be because it is in those verses and in the links related to it. Forgive me if you see this as someone’s personal knowledge and reasoning. May be you are on the wrong track. Remember, the word of God is not for this at all.
Michael Hodgson
SK Kujur ready,???
Michael Hodgson
Here is the answer to my question to show you how simple it is it’s not a mystery my friend it requires you simply reading the text…. now we who are alive and remain
Michael Hodgson
ALIVE AND REMAIN
Michael Hodgson
Why the word REMAIN?
Michael Hodgson
STRANGE WORD DON’T YOU THINK WHO SPEAKS THAT WAY TODAY WAS THE BIBLE WRITTEN IN ENGLISH OR WAS IT WRITTEN IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE IF THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE WAS NOT ENGLISH COULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THIS WORD REMAIN MEANS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE
Michael Hodgson
REMAIN???
Michael Hodgson
There is no rapture
Michael Hodgson
Too many movies
Varnel Watson
actual BIBLICAL theology you need to learn from ASAP
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day the movies are about biblical theology is that what you’re telling me
Michael Hodgson
Hmm
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day which part of the movies is biblical help me understand friend
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day
Michael Hodgson
Friend
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day thought so
Varnel Watson
Michael Hodgson what are you talking about? The post is about theology NOT movies Get with the schedule Stay rapture ready my friend
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day I am trusting God for Grace to be tribulation ready
Michael Hodgson
Let’s talk theology
Michael Hodgson
Great Tribulation ready
Michael Hodgson
May the Lord Jesus prepare me and all of his elect
Michael Hodgson
Are you tribulation ready Great Tribulation ready I am not Rapture ready
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day
Michael Hodgson
If I was Rapture ready what would that look like what would I have to do or not do in order to be Rapture ready and not be left behind?
Varnel Watson
Michael Hodgson I can tell you are not Rapture ready Which basically makes you ready to be left-behind
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day well I wouldn’t want to be left behind what can I do to be Rapture ready
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day
Varnel Watson
Michael Hodgson read Rev ch 2-3 The instructions are pretty clear If you need help finding it in your BIBLE ask a pastor with 30+ yr experience like Steve Conley or RichardAnna Boyce You can start with entire sanctification instead of just positional rectification The BOOK is pretty clear
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day so just so I understand and that I’m clear study and read very carefully Revelation chapters 2 and 3 and if I’m not sure ask a Bible teacher with at least 30 years of experience and believe very carefully what they tell me and then something about entire sanctification could you just please clarify that for me what do you mean by entire sanctification
Varnel Watson
Michael Hodgson Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day thank you how do I become entirely sanctified
Michael Hodgson
I suppose if the Rapture happened tonight and I found myself in a PG-13 movie I probably would get left behind?
Michael Hodgson
Or if I was listening to secular music
Michael Hodgson
Or if I was in a political conversation about the upcoming presidential election?
SK Kujur
Michael Hodgson Alive & Remain = Those who have been raised with Christ, remain in the same state (in Christ) until Christ’s coming. Now you keep your perspective.
I will say what I understand. What is different in which translation, keep them separate, as many people differ in that translation.
Wright Mwazeru Chisambi Calvin
They will be no secret rupture but when the saints will be taken up to heaven 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. every eye will see Him. Rev. 1:7.
Varnel Watson
there will be pre-Trib rapture ONLY opponents call it secret It was never called this by the Church Fathers It will be NO secret for the ones who will be left behind either They will ALL know it happened but it will be too late
Varnel Watson
YES indeed
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley been dealing with the sand storm our way this week so sorry for the delay I am surprised that after 30 yrs pastoral work you switched to pre-wrath My education and experience in eschatology to quickly recognize your low-level questions I’ve been asked this before and have answered quite a bit here in with RichardAnna Boyce as early as 2016 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/day-of-the-lord/
I have however been familiar with the pre-wrath system that you push It is a man made system not bible I call it 3/4 rapture b/c in your view it occurs pre-wrath blah blah The BIBLE makes no such distinction as you make hence your system is unBiblical and possible heretical I answered this in my 2018 topic Pre-wrath rapture? It’s basically, just another fake-news theology http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pre-wrath-rapture-its-basically-just-another-fake-news-theology/
The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal
I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half and so on
I find this problem with the 3/4 preWrath particularly disturbing with pre-wrath position that maintains that Christ comes (parousia) to rapture His church, and then ascends to bring the church before the throne of God. Christ then is somehow “spiritually present” to bring judgment upon Antichrist’s dominion which rules the whole world. The problem is, if the parousia can be defined as Christ’s spiritual presence, then we can say that just like #NAR Kingdom now theology we are living today during the parousia and why not even the Millenium! This is especially true in light of passages where Christ says, “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).
THANK YOU
Michael Hodgson
Or if I was in an argument with a friend?
Michael Hodgson
Would any of these things cost me to be left behind?
Michael Hodgson
If you’re not sure I guess I could direct my question to those pastors knowing they have at least 30 years of biblical expertise I’m sure they graduated from seminary I have many degrees many letters after their names surely as a result they would be able to answer my questions am I correct?
Michael Hodgson
Denise Ann
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day
Michael Hodgson
Troy Day does revelation 3:10 discuss the wrath of God or the tribulation
Steve Conley
You would do better to read original sources instead of other people’s work critiquing teaching you know nothing about. You appear to be all mouth and no substance. Or, as they say in Texas,
—— ALL HAT, NO CATTLE! ——
You reference a man who has passed on to be with Christ as the originator of this teaching. He is not even the originator of the name given to that system of the Biblical eschatology, “PreWrath”. I appreciate Van Kampen, although I never came across his work until I had already moved from the errors of pretribulationism.
You can’t even enter into a dialog by answering the two simple questions I gave you yesterday. Are you afraid that your false, decrepit pretrib system will be exposed to be the lie that it is? Is that why you won’t answer two simple and easy questions?
After 30 years studying and preaching pretribulationism, God was merciful to me, removing the blinders that prevented me from seeing the truth. I had studied the works of the most prominent writers and speakers within the pretrib movement. I defended pretribulationism with rigor. Years ago, I wouldn’t so much as give someone who believed as I do now the time of day. But our wonderful Saviour opened my eyes to see that I was wrong about so much within the sphere of eschatology. I repented and now I am preaching the truth trying to undo the harm I had caused.
After recognizing that the day of the Lord, and the eschatological wrath of God in it, cannot come until after the events which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, I began to reexamine each of the supporting pillars of pretribulationism. The first to fall was the idea that the eschatological wrath of God begins with the events of the first seal. My reasoning went like this:
(Troy, since you know all the eschatological passages thoroughly, having 2 PHDs and all, there is no need for me to take up extra space and provide you with references. Oh, I forgot to ask you about what field of study those degrees were in. Animal Husbandry? Culinary Services? If it was anything to do with eschatology, you need to demand a refund. Maybe you should contact the authorities, a serious crime was committed.)
The Scriptures are very emphatic that the eschatological wrath of God takes place in the period known as the day of the Lord. There are many references to precursors (events which must happen first) of the day of the Lord. One of these precursors is the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and repeated by Peter. They both say that this cosmic sign comes before the day of the Lord. In Rev 6:12-17 we see the cosmic sign and the arrival of the day of the Lord described by John at the opening of the sixth seal. If the eschatological wrath of God doesn’t take place until after the events of the sixth seal then it is not taking place in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th seal events. That wasn’t too challenging for you was it?
Next, if I remember correctly, I believe it was the idea that the great tribulation and the day of the Lord are the same that was shown to be a pretrib fabrication. Since the day of the Lord and the wrath therein comes after the cosmic sign, we should ask if there is a reference to the cosmic sign in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus tells us all about the period He called great tribulation? Yes, there is. Does the passage describe the relationship of the great tribulation to the cosmic sign? Yes, it does. Well, what does it say? Matt 24:29 says that the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days. The “tribulation of those days” is that great “tribulation” that Jesus says is unprecedented and called “those days” in Matt 24:21-22. So the cosmic sign takes place after the great tribulation, but before the day of the Lord and the eschatological wrath of God therein. That means that the great tribulation is something other than the period of God’s eschatological wrath.
Well, if the great tribulation isn’t the period of God’s eschatological wrath, what is it then? Let me tell you. The Olivet Discourse is Jesus’ answer to three questions. The first concerns the destruction of the temple (“when shall these things be”), the second and third are answered together because they both take place upon the same day (“what shall be the sign of thy coming [parousia] and of the end of the world [aion = age]”). Matthew only records Christ’s answer to the last two questions. Luke records the answer to the first.
When Jesus begins speaking in Matt 24:4 He is answering concerning the sign of His parousia (coming). He begins with a warning about not being deceived and then He describes a period He calls the beginning of sorrows, but says the end is not yet. (Please note that all these events that Jesus is speaking of take place within a single generation Matt 24:34.) Christ then connects the events that He calls the beginning of sorrows with the period that comes next with the use of the word “then” in verse 9. In that verse, He begins to describe the violent persecution of those who identify with Christ that He later calls great tribulation. He says that they will be delivered up to be afflicted [from thlipsis = tribulation, persecution], killed, and hated. In the next verse He indicates the violent persecution will be so severe that many will be offended, that is, they will depart from the faith, and betray one another.
Next, He says that the false prophets and the false Christs will deceive many. In verse 24 He indicates that the deception will come through lying signs and wonders performed by these deceivers. The wickedness of that day will be so great that Christ says the love of many will grow cold. Yet He says that there will be physical deliverance (salvation) for those who endure through this persecution unto the end (of the age). He says the end (of the age) will come when the Gospel has been preached in all the world.
In verse 15 Christ begins to provide more details about this period of persecution. The use of “therefore” connects the verse with the previous description of these days of persecution. He describes the event that will signal the beginning of this period of unprecedented persecution that He calls great tribulation. It is the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of. He says that when they see him, the Beast, the man of sin, stand in the holy place, those in Judaea should flee to the mountains immediately for then will be unprecedented great tribulation. In fact, He says that it will be so bad that He will cut it short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth in verse 22.
So we see that the great tribulation that comes before Christ arrives at the end of the age is characterized by the persecution of the elect and supernatural deception. Whereas the day of the Lord is characterized by the plagues of God’s wrath in the trumpet and vial judgments. They are not the same.
Please forgive me for poking fun at you in the first of my post.
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley not sure who you are addressing in this comment but I for one have read most church fathers in the original I am old school and my professors in seminary back then made us read church fathers in greek and latin before quoting them So nice guess but wrong again As to the NT passages, I dont know about you in your so called 30 years which perhaps were in texas where churches have no websites and I cant find you being in ministry no where BUT beyond that I’ve translated the whole NT from Greek one time for each of my degrees Once from TR and once from NA as prerequisite so I will take you on ANY NT passage if you even know Greek HOWEVER what I am not going to do is argue with you on the just recently man-made heretical 3/4 rapture theory you call pre-wrath No Biblical author knew it No church father knew it You are better off with pre-Trib As to Mt 24 🙂 from your 30 yr experience you should have learned this is a text for the Jews – Jesus spoke to Jews there end of story Like I said try again but pls NO pre-wrath heresy that some one paid recently to be developed Good luck proving it
Antonio Regio
Yes, definitely.
Anonymous
this is a good one – very well said Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey
Anonymous
Troy Day Yeah, it’s a good one. His name is not attributed? He points out something I’ve recently been emphasizing – that “those who are alive when Jesus comes..” will be glorified instantly and not even taste death. They will be the only generation in human history to experience this. This is a great blessing, showing one more facet of Yahweh’s grace. Post-Tribbers will of course go kicking and screaming “I was wrong!!!!!!!” “I was wrooooong!!!!!!!!” 🫵💪🧐
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence tell us more about this for Brett Dobbs to get it
Anonymous
No.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs tell us more about this for Link Hudson to get it
Anonymous
Absolutely! They are separated by at least seven years. Could be a brief transition period after the Rapture.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess tell us more about this for Link Hudson to get it
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess yes, Troy day has not been able to produce any scripture these many years to support a pretrib rapture. So far he has tried to use John being told ‘come up hither’ and redefining apoatasia. Also, there is suppose some secret in the Greek of II Thessalonians that he has not articulated. Can you share some scripture that puts tge rapture before the tribulation?
Anonymous
yup — 7 years’ difference.
Anonymous
Yes, please.