Is Romans 7 about a Christian?

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Mike Wambolt ROMANS 7 is used to prove that Paul was still a sinner after his new birth. Not so.ROMANS 7… Gives us a description of what occurs when the mind of an unconverted sinner is under the conviction of the law. Paul said, ” For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died, he continue his narrative 7:9…   Rom 7 to be  a description of an unconverted state because he has already  said that christian has been already freed from sin ( Rom 6:18-22 )The man in Rom 7 was not free from sin and therefore he was not a Christian. Paul also stated there is no condemnation  to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, for the law of the Spirit  of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.Yet the man in Rom. 7 was under condemnation and therefore needed to be saved by Jesus ( Rom 7 24-25 ) And Paul said, ” to be carnally minded is death ” Rom 8:6, yet the man in 7, I am  carnal, sold under sin. Rom 7:14 therefore the man in 7, did not have eternal life and finally, Paul said that as a converted man he lived with a good and pure conscience (  Acts 23:1,Acts 24:16, 2 Tim 1:3,) The man in 7 described  as deeply disturbed by his conscience Rom 7:16. Therefore the description given in Rom 7, was not of the converted life of Paul’s narrative .      
Cory Sessler That’s interesting. Thank you for the insight.      
Clarence Bro Cope Excellent discourse.Let me add another point.  Romans 7 is the basis for the heresy called antinomianism, which essentially teaches that the problem of man is not his sin, but the Law.  God’s righteous judgment is presented as the thing that needs to be delivered from, not the sin that brings on damnation.In trying to reconcile the gospel, which is perfect liberty from sin, the antinomian tries to reconcile the problem of sin against the wrong enemy.  This passage is proof text for the antinomian to say that salvation comes about, not by God removing the sin, but by God removing the Law.In essence antinomianism is a direct out growth from the lie in the garden – ye shall surely not die.  All false gospels try to conform their understanding not to the omnipotence of Jesus Christ to remove sin, but to the idea that sin is no longer deadly to the Christian.Any doctrine that ends up with sin remaining in the life of a believer and the sin no longer being deadly, is a direct result of the lie in the garden.If all God could do was to allow man to remain in sin but to pretend He does not see it, then the gospel is not that Jesus has freed us from sin, but that Jesus freed us from the Law.It is a reframing of truth to make God the culprit and make man the victim of God.  Where have we seen this before?  How about here:Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.That was Satan taking the onus of breaking God’s commandment off of Adam and placing it on God.  With that lie, God and His commandments were framed as the guilty one, and salvation was framed as needing to be delivered from His judgment.      
Lisa Hamilton Clarence Bro Cope Thank you for sharing this! I have always known this, but was not sure how to explain it.
Yahshuah’s Tabernacle Good WORD by the Truth and Spirit. This is a great point that we must apply the whole WORD of GOD and be accepting of HIS Sovereign will in order to abide in HIS covenant. HE is a covenant making GOD!    
Justin Jackson Clarence Bro Cope for clarity… to be perfect as I believe I’m called to be, Are we now free to carry out the laws of God without excuse With the promise that where sins abound His Grace is sufficient as we grow into spiritual maturity?Just want to get it all the way right. I’m open to what must I do to be saved
Clarence Bro Cope //Are we now free to carry out the laws of God without excuse With the promise that where sins abound His Grace is sufficient as we grow into spiritual maturity?//There are two ways to try to follow God.  The first way is by way of listening to God voice through the Spirit.  De 28:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.As long as you are listening to God’s voice through the Spirit, you will not sin because His Spirit will always warn us if something we are considering is contrary to God’s will.  If a man stays in that place, he will cease from all sin.But what if a man will not listen to God’s voice?  How does God handle that contingency?  For that God came up with plan “B” – the Law.Paul said the Law was added because of transgression. Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.The Law was not given to make us righteous,  It wasn’t given for those who listen to God’s voice and obey.  It is given only for those who refuse to listen and obey.1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;The law only acts to constrain the actions of those who refuse to be controlled by God’s voice.I found that when I listen to God’s voice through His Spirit, God never fails to warn me if anything I am contemplating doing is outside His will.The Holy Spirit’s job is to lead us into ALL truth. Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.I know that at the TOP of God’s list of what He wants us to know is what constitutes sin.  As long as we seek Him, and obey what the HS tells us, we will not sin against God.As for grace, in order to be in a state of grace, you MUST accept what grace is given to produce.  If you reject what grace is given to do, you will not receive grace.  Grace is applied if se fail or screw up, but it is not a get-out-of-jail card.  God will overlook our failures if we return to repentance and re-commit ourselves to the goal that grace is given for.  Here is what grace is given to do:Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Grace is given so you can fulfill what God expects of you.  And that is “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”If you accept the goal of grace, which in short is holiness and not sinning, God will work with you and bive you as much help as you need.  It is given so you can meet the goal – deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world”.As long as your target is ceasing from sin and you do not waver from that goal, God will help you in any way that He can.What He cannot and will not do is to simply allow you to remain in your sin.  That is not an option.  Jesus died to deliver us from sin, and to destroy all sin in the world. Joh 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of GodThe short answer if you are serious about ceasing from sin and living a life with God, is that you must do a few things.(1)  Forsake your sins, as best as you can.  He will show you more as time progresses(2) Submit your life and control of it into His hands as Lord.  He then takes control and starts His remaking of you into His image.(3) Start reading the Bible.  If there is something you don’t understand, don’t try to figure it out.  Just ask the Lord to make it clear, and then KEEP ON GOING”.  He is not looking for instantaneous perfection, just continual progress.(4) Start going to church.  Look around.  The Spirit will guide you.  As long as you continue to grow, He will leave you there.  If you stop growing, He will probably take you elsewhere.(5) Talk to other believers.  Ask questions.  You will get conflicting things told to you.  Don’t worry.  The HS will sort out what you are getting in.  He will take what is good and put it in its place.  If it is not good, He will blot it out.Remember that God’s promise is that the HS will guide us into ALL truth and knowledge.  When you first start out it may seem overwhelming.  Don’t be afraid.  He will get you through every thing that comes along.  When I first was converted, I was almost overwhelmed by the many conflicting things I was told.  I finally reasoned it out.  I am an idiot.  I know nothing.  As such I do not have the ability to sift out the junk.  So I made a covenant with the Lord.  I said, “Lord I am not going to try to figure these things out.  I am too stupid.  I am going to accept whatever comes into me, either conscious or subconscious.  I am not going to figure it out because I am an idiot.  So Lord, once it gets in there, YOU have to sort it all out.  Keep what is good, throw out what is not.”And then I simply lived my life and trusted Him to guide me into all truth.I developed my ABC’s prayer:(a) I don’t know what is going on here.(b) I don’t need to know what is going on here(c) I trust you Lord to lead me through.I prayed that prayer tens of thousands of times, and He always came through.If you have any questions, I would be willing to talk to you privately over the phone.
Justin Jackson Clarence Bro Cope I appreciate the patience and concern shared. I’ve already taken what you shared and applied it. I trust the Lord to lead me through. Thank you and God bless you.
Cory Sessler I gave to admit it is a confusing text. I need to study this out more. It’s another pillar of osas. It would make more sense that he was speaking about himself before he came to Christ, but I can also see how it could be speaking of the struggle during the time you are mastering over your sin and the sufferings you go through during this time of testing. Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,I Peter 4:1 NKJVBeloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you;I Peter 4:12 NKJV
Greg Bruner You are correct Mike Wambolt
Loyd Ayres The text applies to anyone who has a “body of death.”That would be everyone. The application of the text is different depending on whether you are a believer with a “body of death” or an unbeliever with a “body of death.”
Greg Bruner It applies exactly as Mike Wambolt stated
David M. Hinsen I’ve always thought he’s describing Adam.  If you read Romans through disregarding chapter numbers and verses, the way it would have been read, it flows in such a way that makes me believe he’s looking back to, and being more descriptive, of the Adamic state.      
David M. Hinsen Describing Adam, but applicable to all those in the Adamic state.
Joey Felts It seems to me he was speaking of himself before Jesus delivered him but yes, applicable to all who are in an unconverted state    
Kevan Dale Keane Whatever Romans 7 is speaking of, its main point is Christ alone can deliver from the flesh, and the Law can’t. It may well have described Paul’s life as an unbeliever, but even if you built the case that he spoke of his own struggles, he’s talking about a specific sin–coveting, and how only Christ could deliver him, and by the time he wrote Philippians he’d learned to be content with what he had.
Loyd Ayres Read the last verse in the chapter. The chapter has application to everyone with a “body of death.” Wisdom determines the application.
Robert Williams WHO IS THIS MAN IN ROMANS CHAPTER SEVEN?”O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”No other chapter of the Bible has intrigued me more than the seventh chapter of Romans.It has been a bone of contention amongtheologians and a stumbling block to manyhonest inquirers.Unfortunately, this perhaps “hard to be understood” passage has become an antinomian stronghold of sorts, ostensibly justifying a sinning “Christianity.” In fact, Romans seven has become to the antinomian what evolution is to the atheist.It has been well stated that evolution is nothing more than scientific permission to reject God. Likewise, Romans chapter seven has been wrested into theological permission to continue in sin.–Shared
Shirley Mitchem He is a man going thru- spiritual warfare for the flesh does war against the spirit – and visa versa -if we remain strong – in the Lord. the enemy canot overcome us
Frank Telford Pride is a sin many Christians fall victims too after their conversion. Even Paul was given a thorn in his flesh to keep him humble.
Clarence Bro Cope //The text applies to anyone who has a “body of death.”That would be everyone. //It does not apply to me.  I no longer have a body of death.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God,If all things are of God, where can that body of death come from?  Is God dead?I believed the Bible and the Bible says were are set free from sin.  To be set free took a lot of suffering, but I never wavered concerning what was promised.  I was promised freedom from sin.Here is the promise:1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.And here is the fulfillment:1Pe 5:10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.After I suffered a while, God perfected me just as He promised.
Loyd Ayres If you still have a dying physical body you still have a “body of death.”
Clarence Bro Cope No, sorry, my body is all of God.  It cannot be a body of death.  God  is not dead.
Clarence Bro Cope Let me spell it out for you defenders of sin.I do not sin.  I used to sin, but I ceased.  The fact that I stopped from sinning entirely will be used to condemn any excuse you might want to blaspheme God with.You see, if even ONE man can cease from sin, then ALL men MUST cease from sin.That is why my testimony is so hated.  It strips you of your fortress inside of which you hide from God.2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;I am the destroyer of your fortresses.
Frank Telford Is lying to yourself a sin?
Clarence Bro Cope Agreeing with what God has said cannot be a lie.
Clarence Bro Cope All I do is agree with God all the time.  He has never told me to sin, so…..I don’t.
Shirley Mitchem Loyd Ayres no – th is meant spiritually      
Loyd Ayres Shirley Mitchem whatever it means it is referring to our physical body which is our main source of temptation.  
Shirley Mitchem I know . but being as how the Lord delivered me overnight from drugs and alcohol- I am a true witness of His grace and mercy-and i do go thru -much warfare at times – just as Jesus did in  Matthew 4- but heaven will be worth it all
Clarence Bro Cope //Pride is a sin many Christians fall victims too after their conversion. Even Paul was given a thorn in his flesh to keep him humble.//It cannot be pride to agree with what God has said.Paul’s “thorn” could not have been sin.  If it was then God is guilty of forcing a man to sin, which in all honesty is just plain stupid.  God can not force a man to what He Himself has forbidden.    
Frank Telford Where did I say the thorn was sin?
Clarence Bro Cope We are in a discussion of whether or not Romans 7 describes a Christian experience.  Were you suggesting his thorn was athlete’s foot or psoriasis?
Frank Telford Twisting my words is a sin.
Clarence Bro Cope No, sorry, I simply accepted what you said.  Why would you bring up the thorn in the middle of a discussion about whether or not a Christian sins?  Of what significance would it be?  I did not twist your words.  I knew precisely what you were getting at.      
Brian Lakins Simply Paul speaking about being under the Mosaic Law, and Romans 8 is going on “therefore” to Paul’s experience in Christ.
Darren White I’ve had some of my biggest debates on Romans 7. People always trying make Paul a struggling sinner.  That would go against everything else he taught… Just saying      
Loyd Ayres The chapter applies to all men who live in a mortal physical body.
Darren White Loyd Ayres that was not Paul’s context
Clarence Bro Cope It does not apply to me.  I do not sin against God.
Loyd Ayres Darren White yes it is. Read it with an open mind not an indoctrinated mind and you will see it’s application to all men.
Loyd Ayres Clarence Bro Cope you may not sin but you still have a physical mortal dying “body of death.”    
Clarence Bro Cope Loyd Ayres, consider for a moment what you are saying.  You are making the claim that your death is more effectual to free you from sin than was the death of the Son of God.It is the highest claim of self righteousness that Jesus death was unable to set you free from so, so it takes your death also.I did not have to die to be free of sin.  Jesus’ death was sufficient to free me.  
Darren White Loyd Ayres sir, with all do respect… I’ve been debating this for over 30 years… It only took me one time to realize Paul was not talking about himself or Christians…. We can go verse by verse if you want 😊
Loyd Ayres Clarence Bro Cope I believe “when Jesus died for my sin I died to my sin.” You are mixing metaphors. Being set free from the power of sin Jesus crucifixion has already accomplished. Being set free from a “body of death” waits for the resurrection.
Clarence Bro Cope //you may not sin but you still have a physical mortal dying “body of death.”//That is only a temporary thing.  I am waiting on my new body, version 2.0.1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Loyd Ayres Darren White do you have a physical “body of death?”
Darren White Loyd Ayres sir, whatever you may want to say might be true…. But its not the context of the chapter
Clarence Bro Cope Loyd Ayres //“when Jesus died for my sin I died to my sin.//If that was true, you would be proclaiming the fact that you no longer sin against God, instead of defending your sinning against God.If you are still sinning, you are not dead to your sin.I would wager a lot of money that when you get down to it, you are thinking that Jesus death did not remove the sin, it just removed the punishment.  That is the heresy of antinominism.Jesus death did not simply make our sins no longer sinful, but provided a way for us to live in total victory over sin.NOT SINNING AT ALL is the gosple.
Loyd Ayres Darren White “body of death” IS the context.  
Darren White No sir, you missed the point! One of the First keys in the Chapter is verse 1…. Who is he talking to and why?
Loyd Ayres Darren White final statements are culmination statements. Read it.
Darren White Remember,  he was opposing those which were trying to make the Gentiles live according to the law  
Darren White But it has context
Darren White Who was he trying to make the point to?
Darren White And why?
Loyd Ayres Darren White whoever the audience is or whatever the reason is the SUBJECT is a body of death.      
Darren White Loyd Ayres no sir    
Darren White Flesh,  mosaic Law failure      
Loyd Ayres Darren White have you taken the time to read the final statement at the end of the chapter?
Darren White Loyd Ayres never took the time… Lol      
Darren White Loyd Ayres it was part of a larger context      
Darren White Romans 7:5[5]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Darren White WERE IN THE FLESH!      
Darren White Watch the transitions    
Loyd Ayres Darren White I expected more from you. You spoke of context. “In the flesh” here clearly means having “ the mind of the flesh.” It is not talking about the physical body.
Darren White Loyd Ayres lol…. What do you think he was talking about in that verse? A dead body… Lol      
Darren White Romans 7:5[5]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.      
Darren White Did they die
Darren White Sorry read what you said wrong… Sorry. But yes…. Before the time of the Holy Ghost….  Read the context
Darren White Before the ability to be born again!  During the time of the Mosaic Law…..
Clarence Bro Cope JTBTDA, being born again is not a NT concept.  It has always been.  Just saying.      
Darren White Clarence Bro Cope don’t understand that
Clarence Bro Cope Just an aside.  Just stirring up the pot a little.
Darren White Clarence Bro Cope lol…. This is a thick pot… 😊
Clarence Bro Cope //always trying make Paul a struggling sinner//Paul was perfect.  When He attained unto perfection we do not know for sure, but how I know is this. 1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.Paul included himself in the company of the perfect, twice.    
Doug Gibson Romans 7 is easy to understand.  We have to read what leads up to the question “7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin?”  Paul’s answer talks about what happened before his conversion and how he was slain by the law.  But he rewords the same question because he wants to drive the point home what he just finished saying.  So he asks again because people will continue to find fault with the law (such as Calvinists in particular)  “13 Has then what is good become death to me?”  If you put the two questions in two columns on a page or a chalkboard and then compare Paul’s explanation they will be found to be identical.  The second question and answer is merely a reiteration of the first one.  Paul is stressing the effect of the law on an unsanctified and unregenerate heart.    
Robert Kraus Romans 7:11 says he died to sin  
Desirie Victoria But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.Romans 7:23-25 Here Paul speaks about being in captivity to the law of sin which is in his members in verse 23. In verse 24 he says oh wretched man that I am. Then asks “who can deliver me from this body of death?”What body of death? The body of death is speaking of the law of sin he found in his members. The bondage to sin! He is captive here. But he asks, who can deliver him. Then he answers his own question. The answer is he can he delivered from this body of death (bondage to sin) through Jesus Christ our Lord! Then if you keep reading he again makes it clear in Ch. 8 that those who are in Christ are no longer captive or bound to the law of sin and death! So no, believers do not still have a “body of death.” The context here has nothing to do with whether or not our physical bodies are perishing. He is speaking of the problem of sin and gives a clear answer to the problem.Clearly the description of the man who is still captive to the law of sin in his members is not a man in Christ. When Romans 8:1-2 tells us “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”Then goes on to describe that freedom from sin and what it means to now live in the Spirit and have victory over sin.
Shirley Mitchem AA-men
Andrew Beardsley Funny how not a trace of evidence can be found for Roman’s 7 being a Christian before Augustine      
Andrew Beardsley Joey did you read my article yet?
Andrew Beardsley https://m.facebook.com/therealpelagius/photos/a.1964338047138539.1073741828.1940699626169048/1964338013805209/?type=3&refid=18&ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_comment&__tn__=%2As-R      
Don Konz A huge part of the problem is that churchgoers have never heard anything contrary; the myth is promoted by almost all high profile preachers and teachers in the Christian community! Money scammers, spiritual impostors and wolves now guard the chicken house. Anything goes! We believers need to be grounding our faith on nothing but the WORD of God, NOT teachers in the Church!
Andrew Beardsley We need to go beyond the modern church and beyond Augustine      
Clarence Bro Cope We need to go beyond the church and Augustine, all the way to Jesus.  If we learn how to listen to God, we will be sipping from the well spring all our days.
Darren White Many new age teaching teaches that…  Just saying
Clarence Bro Cope It is what the Bible teaches.  There are safeguards, but the safeguards are not what you think.1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Shirley Mitchem Clarence Bro Cope AA-men
Elijah Guadarrama Sounds like a Christian to me unless a believer is not to thank God through Jesus Christ?? Hmmm sounds like a Christian believer to me thanking Jesus!!Romans 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.  
Clarence Bro Cope What question was Paul thanking Jesus for? He was thnking Jesus for having been set free from the body of death.  Since the body of death was the result of sinning, one can only conclude that being set free from it meant that sin was not continued.
Andrew Beardsley You just cited a verse that is not what we are talking about. Verse 25 is back to Paul acting as a Christian. Vs 7 until 25 is not.      
Elijah Guadarrama Who do you think Paul is talking about? Surely not another person. Paul is talking about his experiences. To say that it’s not a Christian is like saying Paul didn’t write Romans 7 which would be absurd.
Andrew Beardsley I was ask to explain the verse “There now therefore is no condemnation for those who are in christ who walk not in the flesh but after the spirit.””There is therefore now”The state of what I just said Has changed?What kind of change accounding to paul? According to Paul “no condemnation”.No condemnation where before there was, this condemnation described in the same Chapter of Roman’s 7. The part which you and others may think describes a saved state of Paul. But “there Is now therefore” denotes a change of state that has taken place”To those who are in chirst”The state which we have changed to and have become like. “”Who walk not after the flesh”They walk not in the flesh as described before earlier in Roman’s 7. “But according to the spirirt” But follow the Holy spirits guidance.
Andrew Beardsley Well the early church says convicted unsaved jew. Where that’s Paul or Paul Is describing someone else doesnt really brother me.
Don Konz In a general sense the bible being promoted today essentially needs to condone all for sinful living while being a Christian, for the sad reality is that most churchgoers are not truly born again and therefore still enslaved by their sinful nature. Like many other scriptural passages Rom 7 has been distorted to fit the sinning Christian. But you cannot use one or a few scriptures to negate many others on the same topic. Jesus came to set the captives free…free from their sinning and from all power of sin, which could never be accomplished by the Law. The old man is alive to sin and dead to God. The new man cannot still be alive to sin and simultaneously alive to God. We are either alive to God and dead to sin, or else we are alive to sin and dead to God. God’s intention was to create a NEW MAN… the old being crucified with Christ and no longer lives. These are not theoretical but life transforming and experiential. Totally changed inside and out! God will do it for all who will obey Him sincerely Jn.14:15-23.
Ricky D Dotson O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?Only Jesus can bring us back to the Father. With repenting of our sins and believing God is faithful in forgiving our sins.The wretch man he is talking about is us, all have sins and come short of the glory of God. Only by Jesus dieing on the cross and rising the third day have we any hope.My hope is in Jesus.
Andrew Beardsley Who shall deliver him?? He hadn’t yet been delieved.. this was the entire point…
Robert Williams Most avoid Romans 7:1-4 like the plague. Very sad indeed….Divorce, fornication NOR adultery dissolves a marriage or Paul’s analogy in Romans 7 would be faulty. Let’s examine…In this passage “Romans 7” Paul is teaching an analogy. The hearers understood that like a marriage being binding…………the Law holds sway over us. Freedom from a marriage comes through DEATH. Freedom from the penalty of the law came through Christ.Paul was using an exact analogy. Death=freedom from marriage, Christ=freedom from the penalty of the law.If Death is not the only thing which provides freedom from a marriage, then the analogy falls apart. The analogy would then possibly lead people to believe maybe there was another way to gain freedom from the law other than Christ. Yes, Paul wasn’t going into depth concerning marriage, but what he was doing was teaching a very important point—-death and death alone is what frees from the marriage bond. Christ and Christ alone frees us from the penalty of the law. It is the perfect illustration.Analogies have to “fit” in order to be understood. If Paul didn’t mean what he said in regards to the marriage bond being permanent until death—even in the face of adultery/divorce, then it is a ‘faulty’ analogy and there is some other way besides Jesus (Him being only one means of freedom from the law)…………Think about it………….Nothing said in scripture is without meaning.–Shared
Jeff Thomas Apostle Paul was a Christian in Romans 7. If he wasn’t, then why would he care if he does wrong. Sinners do t care when they sin. They care when they’re saved.
Andrew Beardsley That’s not true… they sin knowing it’s wrong. And you cant just say this is an unsaved jew… it’s a convicted Unsaved jew.. meaning God is Revealing himself and a person who being convicted
Joey Felts Many sinners are saddened by their sinful state. Especially a convicted Jew who knew Gods law
Clarence Bro Cope Every soul who sees Romans 7 as descriptive of their walk are sinners under conviction for their sins, but who are not intent on being free.
Gene William Steele Paul often rebuked and at times even condemned sinners, and sin, in the churches. But how can he do this? According to Matthew 7, and even Romans 2, if Paul had any of the spirit of Christ in him, he should remove the plank first from his own eye, then he could see clearly to remove the sin from all the churches. Was Paul such a hypocrite that he sinned everyday, supposedly like a mad man (chief of sinners?), and yet had the audacity to rebuke others? “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” Was Paul condemning himself with every Epistle ?
Clarence Bro Cope No, he was not.  Judgment per se is not outlawed.  What is outlawed is hypocrisy.  You cannot judge another for something you yourself do.  That is why Jesus said to first remove the plank from your own eye.If one wants to judge over sin, he first has to stop his sinning.  Then he will see clearly to judge others.
Gene William Steele Exactly
Gene William Steele From “Greek Grammar- Beyond the Basics” by Daniel B. Wallace, under ‘The approach to this book’ page 9-2) Humility needs to be exercised where the data are insufficient or where the language is capable of many interpretations. For example, although we would reject the probability that the present tenses in Rom 7 are historical presents (since all undisputed historical presents in the NT are in the third person), we cannot, on syntactical grounds, reject the notion that the “I” refers to Paul’s presaved state. Other issues besides syntax (notably the strong possibility of figurative language) are at work here.
Andrew Beardsley So are you for or against this being about a unsaved convicted jew?
Andrew Beardsley Ah I see. Interesting      
Justin Jackson Wow! I’m so thankful for this. #Understanding
Gene William Steele “…. Huttunen suggests that Epictetus’ use of the first person presents a good analogy for Paul’s employment of “I” as a rhetorical device.”17 “It has been recognized at least since the time of Origen and Chrysostom that Paul uses a variety of rhetorical figures and techniques in this discourse, including dialogue with an imaginary interlocutor (in diatribal format) as has been amply demonstrated by S. Stowers” (A rereading of Romans: Justice, Jews, and Gentiles).18 Quintilian, a younger Roman contemporary of Paul was a prominent Roman professor of rhetoric and is known for teaching his students “impersonation” or “character making” (prosopopoiia)19 “…given ancient reading and writing practices, Paul’s education level, and the nature of Graeco-Roman education and rhetoric, it is almost certain that Paul received instruction in and employed prosopopoiia.”20 A classic example of this usage can be found in the book of Sirach where Wisdom is personified and made to speak to the people and to the reader:””A prosopopoeia (Greek: προσωποποιία) is a rhetorical device in which a speaker or writer communicates to the audience by speaking as another person or object…Prosopopoeiae can also be used to take some of the load off the communicator by placing an unfavorable point of view on the shoulders of an imaginary stereotype. The audience’s reactions are predisposed to go towards this figment rather than the communicator himself.”http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/…/romans-7.php…Sin and the Misinterpretation of Romans 7
Andrew Beardsley Your link didn’t work      
Andrew Beardsley https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/…/romans-7.php  
Gene William Steele W Scott Taylor – The “personification of sin” is an obvious tell of a hypothetical composite person is being inhabited for the purpose of demonstrating that the Apostle understands the inertial of the selfish purpose of life confronting the full up demand of the law.
Justin Jackson I’ve always believed that His Word is literal. That we are to be perfect as He is… mental slavery is real. #Free #The #Mind      
Gene William Steele Verses 13-14Was then that which is good made death unto me [first person singular]? God forbid [“Let it not be so!”]. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual: but I [first person singular] am carnal, sold under sin.Wait a minute! Hold the phone!Was the Apostle Paul carnal at the time that he penned the book of Romans? Literally? Still just body and soul? Still sold under sin? Or had he “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine” which was delivered unto him? And had he thereby been “made free from sin” like every other believer in Christ? Whom he served “in newness of spirit” which he had received “and not in the oldness of the letter”?  
Gene William Steele From “Half Hours with St.Paul” by Daniel Steele- The seventh chapter of Paul’s Epistle to theRomans is still quoted by some persons as a proofthat the hereditary propensity to sin, called by theologiansoriginal sin, must continue in the heart of thebeliever so long as he lives. pg.70″2. Our next objection to such an exegesis is that it makes the gospel as great a failure as the law in its reconstruction of human character. But this idea is flatly contradictory to the whole tenor of the New Testament. ” pg.71″5. The best scholarship discredits this chapter as thephotograph of a regenerated man. The Greek Fathers,during the first three hundred years of church history,unanimously interpreted this scripture as describinga thoughtful moralist endeavoring without the grace of God to realize his highest ideal of moral purity. Augustineat first followed this interpretation, till in hiscollision with Pelagius he found verses 14 and 22quoted by his opponent to prove that the natural mancan appreciate the beauty of holiness. To cut him off from these proof-texts he deviated from the traditionalexegesis, and championed the new theory that this chapter is a delineation of the regenerate. Calvinianannotators have quite generally followed him, withnotable modern exceptions, such as Moses Stuart andCalvin E. Stowe. The trend of modern scholars,whether Calvinian or Arminian, is now toward theview of the Greek Fathers. Among these are Meyer,Julius Miiller, Neander, Tholuck, Ewald, Ernesti, Lepsius,Macknight, Doddridge, A. Clarke, Turner, Whedon.Beet, and Stevens of Yale.” pg.74https://archive.org/stream/halfhourswithstp00stee…ManageHalf-hours with St. Paul, and other Bible readingsARCHIVE.ORG
Gene William Steele Joseph Beet says this-” Now between Romans 7:13-14 we have no hint of a change: indeed, Romans 7:14 explains Romans 7:13, and therefore cannot be separated from it by an event which completely changed Paul’s position. But in Romans 8:1 the change takes place before our eyes, and is written in characters which no one can misunderstand. The words “made me free from the law of sin” proclaim in clearest language that the bondage of Romans 7:23; Romans 7:25 has passed away.””Again, Romans 7:14-25 absolutely contradict all that Paul and the N.T. writers say about themselves and the Christian life. He here calls himself a slave of sin, and groans beneath its bondage, a calamity-stricken man. Contrast this with Galatians 2:20, “I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me;” and with 1 John 3:14, “we know that we are passed out of death into life.” If the words before us refer to a justified man, they stand absolutely alone in the entire New Testament.”And regarding the present tenses he writes this-The past and present tenses are distinguished, not only in time, but as different modes of viewing an action. The past tense looks upon it as already complete; the present, as going on before our eyes. Consequently, when the time is otherwise determined, the tenses may be used without reference to time. In the case before us, the entire context, foregoing and following, tells plainly to what time Paul refers. He is therefore at liberty to use that tense which enables him to paint most vividly the picture before him. This mode of speech, common to all languages, is a conspicuous feature of the language in which this epistle was written. So Kuehner, Greek Grammar § 382. 2: “In the narration of past events the present is frequently used, especially in principal sentences, but not unfrequently in subordinate sentences, while in the vividness of the representation the past is looked upon as present. This use of the present is also common to all languages. But in the Greek language it is specially frequent; and in the language of poetry appears not merely in narration but also in vivid questions and otherwise, frequently in a startling manner.”https://www.studylight.org/commen…/jbc/romans-7.htmlManageRomans 7 Commentary – Beet’s Commentary on Selected Books of the…STUDYLIGHT.ORG
Shannon Bobo Read the previous chapter that will destroy that idea example Paul says in chapter 6 verse 13 Romans 6:13-16 King James Version (KJV)13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. And verse  16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Justin Jackson Joey Felts 2 things: Are we to now obey all the laws and commandments?And can you PLEASE open this post to be shared?
Shawn Mann https://m.facebook.com/notes/shawn-mann/romans-7/10153395947406531/?ref=bookmarks
Andrew Beardsley Romans 7. Reasons why it’s not a Christian state. 1. Context and statements of Roman’s 6 and 8 are completely opposite of Roman’s 7 after the first 7 sentences. 2. No historical evidence for the modern view at all prior to Augustine.  In fact even Augustine held to it and Early Christian ideas of free will until he rejected both Fighting pelagius.3. There are historical present texts in the bible written completely in the present in greek and are still about past completed actions. 4. The Term there is now.. shows a Change of state. Words have meaning.   There was condemnation and now there isn’t.Can someone please make a sentence where ” there is now” doesnt mean a change in state?  I am interested to discuss this logically.Paul was describing Christian’s in roman 6 to the first part of Roman’s 7. Now what’s the fate of the Wicked? Paul says to Live in the flesh is Death?? How can we not see that’s exactly what Roman’s 7 after 7 is about?? It’s a person who is condemned… but he goes on to Say this.. but there is now no condemnation?What condemnation is he speaking of?  If this is true why was Paul condemning himself as a Christian in Roman’s 7?? Why does Paul speak of himself as in Captivity… Why Roman’s 6 and Romand 8 says we are free from captivity??
Elijah Guadarrama It’s not Rocket science the apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and yes it’s a Christian inspired by the Holy Spirit who wrote Romans 7 unless people doubt the Holy Spirit is not the Holy author ? LOL give me a break
Andrew Beardsley There is no doubt that a Christian wrote it. That’s a straw man attack.
Elijah Guadarrama No it’s a fact that doesn’t need to be disputed
Andrew Beardsley That’s not the arguement. The arguement is was Roman’s 7 verse 7 and one about an Unsaved convicted Jew or was Pual writing from his Christian state.
Elijah Guadarrama Romans 7 is about a Christian coming to conversion and about Paul’s struggles so this original post gets debunked
Andrew Beardsley Comparing scripture with scripture determined that is a lie    
Andrew Beardsley I had your view it was the view the modern church teaches. Came straight from Augustine.
Andrew Beardsley It’s funny how never again Paul speaks like this about his Christian state and even worse Actaully preaches against it in Roman’s 8
Andrew Beardsley That’s a nice contradicting theology you got there as for me I’ll believe Paul 🙂  
Elijah Guadarrama Paul wrote it case closed
Elijah Guadarrama Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to  be an apostle, separated to the gospel of GodRomans 1:1
Andrew Beardsley Paul did write it and if you paid attention to Paul you would know this isn’t the state of a Christian.
Elijah Guadarrama Romans 1 sets the order because there was no such thing as chapter numbers or verse numbers that does not exist in the original manuscripts      
Elijah Guadarrama It was just 1 scroll
Andrew Beardsley the Shift happens in Verse 6. Before this time he describes Christian’s.  Paul now is going to Explain what a convicted Unsaved jew looked like….  Condemned…
Andrew Beardsley You missed it because you didn’t compare Roman’s 7:7 to the end of the chapter with Roman’s 6 and 8.
Andrew Beardsley The early church did not believe this Daul  nature of Man junk.      
Andrew Beardsley So if you come to the text and infer that because of Augustine then your going to twist paul.
Elijah Guadarrama Paul says it verse 7 …… “I would have not known” who is the i in the picture ?? I rest my case
Andrew Beardsley Your thinking modern.  You should be trying to understand it from 1st century christianity.
Elijah Guadarrama No I’m thinking as it says it. When God says “In the beginning” what do you think He is saying ? Do you think that is thinking modern or does it really mean the beginning? The answer is obvious
Andrew Beardsley Assuming that a passage which is contradictory applies to saved paul is indeed modern thinking since the first 400 years of church never even thought like this.
Joey Felts Paul is speaking of one who needed deliverance, not of one had been delivered. Romans 8 speaks of one who has been delivered
Shawn Mann Romans 7 describes the struggle of someone trying to obey God in their own strength and ability, without the Holy Spirit, while not yet being delivered from sin by Christ
Andrew Beardsley Correct without the Holy spirit a state not possible for a saved Christian.  That’s probably not what you meant but still.
Andrew Beardsley I was ask to explain the verse “There now therefore is no condemnation for those who are in christ who walk not in the flesh but after the spirit.””There is therefore now”The state of what I just said Has changed?What kind of change accounding to paul? According to Paul “no condemnation”.No condemnation where before there was, this condemnation described in the same Chapter of Roman’s 7. The part which you and others may think describes a saved state of Paul. But “there Is now therefore” denotes a change of state that has taken place”To those who are in chirst”The state which we have changed to and have become like. “”Who walk not after the flesh”They walk not in the flesh as described before earlier in Roman’s 7. “But according to the spirirt” But follow the Holy spirits guidance.
   
   
 

15 Comments

  • Troy Day
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Troy Day

    Joe Absher Scotty Searan Ron Raney Post your question here brother Scott Lencke didnt you have a good write up about that somewhere?

  • Joe Absher
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Says “opps page can’t be found”

  • Roger David
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Roger David

    If Mike Wambolt wrote the article I probably agree with it … though I also can’t access it at this time to confirm that.

    • Joe Absher
      Reply July 9, 2018

      Joe Absher

      Sometimes I ask Mr Day a question. Then he busts me out.
      Does imputed righteousness mean just a legal term or is it an actual investment in the spirit and soul of a man. Of course it is. Born again of the incorruptible word of God. Receive with Meekness the engrafted word. All these verse declare the work of Christ and the life giving power of his word. Is the promise of a new heart rhetoric and poetry or real and substantial change?

  • Ray E Horton
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Ray E Horton

    Says “Page can’t be found.”

  • John Duncan
    Reply July 9, 2018

    John Duncan

    Not according to Dr. Douglas J. Moo, Dr. Gordon Fee or me.

  • Troy Day
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Troy Day

    what do they say John Duncan? Most reasonable commentary I;ve seen is Rom 7 is directly about Paul before Christ and Paul after Christ proceeding into Rom 8 – this is set in Rom 5

    • John Duncan
      Reply July 9, 2018

      John Duncan

      They say PAUL is speaking in Romans 7 about his experience under the the law. Moo adds that it is also about Israel under the law.

    • Troy Day
      Reply July 9, 2018

      Troy Day

      Yes I tend to go that way too This is very Pentecostal – Wesleyan sanctification However, Luther Calvin and the reformers took a different rout

    • Roger David
      Reply July 9, 2018

      Roger David

      I would say this view is the only one that makes sense in the context of Romans 6-8. Declaring that this is the normal christian life doesn’t make sense at all.

    • John Duncan
      Reply July 9, 2018

      John Duncan

      I had a conversation with BH Clendennen and he saw Romans 7 as the struggle against the flesh we all experience.

  • Joe Absher
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Does imputed righteousness mean just a legal term or is it an actual investment in the spirit and soul of a man. Of course it is. Born again of the incorruptible word of God. Receive with Meekness the engrafted word. A new creation. All these verses declare the work of Christ and the life giving power of his word. Is the promise of a new heart rhetoric and poetry or real and substantial change?

  • Joe Absher
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Joe Absher

    “3¶Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    John 3:3
    Jesus Christ hears the cry of the humble, asking for mercy and forgiveness and sees that faith. He approves their request and grants mercy and cleansing and pardons them. Jesus takes the sin and the “want to” sin.
    The saved are justfied by faith in Jesus Christ. A new man is born. The spirit that was dead in sin comes alive to God by faith. It’s a miracle. Old things are passed away all things are become new. He is born from above. The new man is created in Righteousness and true holiness.
    Repentance is a moral upheaval. A thorough breaking up and a tearing down. The power and curse and rule of sin is broken. The will is transformed. Sin is not the master. Jesus is the Master. The things I used to love I now hate. The things I used to hate I now love. Jesus loves righteousness and hates iniquity. And he lives in me. It’s no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. I hate sin, what it did to me, my family, my friends, the people I love. The devil uses sin to deceive men and to destroy lives. Sin corrupts the beliefs and defiles a man. Sin pollutes the mind and strips the dignity and maligns character of a man.
    When a man is born again love is his rule, honesty is his course, faith is his defining virtue. Faith in Jesus Christ the righteous. The new man takes every opportunity to approve and build up the things that are right and holy before God. The things that make for peace and reconciliation.

  • Troy Day
    Reply July 9, 2018

    Troy Day

    imputed righteousness means both a legal term and an actual investment

    • Joe Absher
      Reply July 9, 2018

      Joe Absher

      Thank you. Mr Jacobus is good at the details

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