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Roger Lewis
Typically when using a quote credit is given. Who wrote this? What’s the book? Thanks.
Varnel Watson
Wouldnt that be nice IF ppl on the internets cited their bibliography but this is all they post It is by Francis Chan – is he a Pentecostal? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-francis-chan-pentecostal/
Roger Lewis
Depends on who you talk to. I heard him on one video and it didn’t sound like it. Certainly doesn’t believe in IPE.
Varnel Watson
IPE? We;ve discussed this before back in the day and there was something where he speaks against tongues, but I have to find it
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN9gmCKO3zU
Roger Lewis
Troy Day initial physical evidence.
Brian Roden
I’d say he’s more simple continuationist (broad Charismatic) then Pentecostal (IPE)
Varnel Watson
I dont see him even being Charismatic BTW Classical Pentecostals do not recognize IPE – we call it initial evidence IPE is a term proposed by non-Pentecostals and bapticostals WHICH allows for OTHER non-physical evidence(s) to become evidence of the baptism This is NOT Biblical
The Bible clearly teaches of 1 evidence of the HSB which is tongues – both physical and non-physical spiritual To mark tongues as IPE is to allow other non-physical evidence(s) to be also initial, which is a complete nonsense
One baptism – one evidence #THERE
Gerardo de Dominicis
Troy Day he is/was a reformed pastor. Now reformed ministers don’t consider him reformed anymore but more of a “charismatic”.
Brian Roden
Troy Day A/G fundamental truth #8 has said “initial physical evidence” for decades. I’d have to check with the FPHC to verify exactly when that specific language was adopted, but it was pretty early.
Brian Roden
From https://ifphc.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=history.main
Almost immediately, leaders were faced with a doctrinal dispute — whether or not to abandon traditional Trinitarian theology in favor of a modal monarchian view of the Godhead (also called the “New Issue” or Oneness theology). In 1916 the General Council approved a Statement of Fundamental Truths, which affirmed Trinitarian orthodoxy and resulted in the departure of Oneness advocates. When questions arose in 1918 whether Spirit baptism could occur without speaking in tongues, the General Council declared its teaching of tongues as “initial physical evidence” to be its “distinctive testimony.”
So it seems the phrase “initial physical evidence” has been in use by the A/G since 1918. And IPE is just shorthand for that. So the statement that “IPE is a term proposed by non-Pentecostals and bapticostals WHICH allows for OTHER non-physical evidence(s) to become evidence of the baptism” seems to be historically inaccurate. Now maybe those groups have tried to take advantage of the word “physical” to make that argument, but to say they proposed the term is not correct.
Brian Roden
Page three of this 1918 edition of the The Christian Evangel (later retitled The Pentecostal Evangel), in the section “Deeper Work Necessary,” uses the phrase “initial physical evidence”
Roger Lewis
Troy Day I can agree with his statement, “I don’t speak with tongues, but I have the Holy Spirit.” Every born again believer has the Holy Spirit.
Varnel Watson
I cant agree with his statement, “I don’t speak with tongues, but I have the Holy Spirit.” AG has NOT gotten everything right And it was not so called by early Pentecostals – the Bible says tongues were both physical and spiritual evidence. Both spoken tongues and tongues of Holy Ghost fire
Roger Lewis
Troy Day so let get this. A person saved but not spirit baptized does not have the Holy Spirit?
Varnel Watson
Back to the Muslim ecample Roger Lewis Does the world see us that way?
Roger Lewis
I think there’s more in the church world that define anything we do to be attractional in this way than people in the world. But then we don’t know till we ask them do we? We don’t have to ask the church world for their opinion because they give it all the time.
Roger Lewis
I typically like Francis Chan, but he can be almost legalistic at times these days since he left his church and is on this new journey. Sometimes it feels like he thinks those who continue to do church the way we do are just not getting it.
Varnel Watson
I agree on Francis Chan. I dont care too much about his theology clothed in much marketing and commercialism BUT he seems right on this one – at least to me
Varnel Watson
Roger Lewis this is not really an OP about the Holy Ghost baptism and I am a stickler for OPs. There are plenty of others OPs where these questions should be raised I am not sure why Brian Roden decided to hijack this one but oh well
A saved person needs to receive the Holy Spirit baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues like they did in Acts in order to claim being filled with the Holy Ghost and endued with power #there
Brian Roden
I’m sorry you think I was trying to hijack the thread. I was just trying to point out, with historical evidence, that a claim made about terminology was inaccurate.
Varnel Watson
Sure Maybe wrong choice of internet words
Roger Lewis
Troy Day you posted the video “I don’t speak in tongues but I have the Holy Spirit.”
Varnel Watson
Only to answer the question IF he was Pentecostal which he is not IMO From that one we are back to the quote from his book as per OP
Roger Lewis
Troy Day I think his statement is rather silly and shallow.
Varnel Watson
oh wow – as referred to the church too?
Roger Lewis
Troy Day not sure what you mean, but what church “advertises” doughnuts and giving away an iPad to get people to come? Maybe one here and there, but it’s stupid to characterize “the church” that way. We serve snacks and coffee. I don’t do it “to get people to my events.” We do it because it seems to be a nice thing to do. Sometimes we give things away to attract unchurched people. It’s bait. Jesus calls us fishers of men. If Francis doesn’t want to do that, fine, but he needs to spend his time encouraging and equipping rather than criticizing. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.
Varnel Watson
Are you kidding? I know MANY churches which “advertises” doughnuts and giving away an iPad to get people to come Just do a simple Google search https://www.google.com/search?q=church+ipad+giveaway&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS823US823&oq=church+ipad+giveaway&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.152j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Roger Lewis
Troy Day how many would that be out of 400,000 churches in America? And why do you care? Take care of your own the way you feel God has called you and let the same God deal with others. Let them advertise their doughnuts and giveaways. How does that hurt you or keep you from reaching people the way you feel is correct? Unless you’re jealous or afraid they might catch some of yours.
Varnel Watson
well I care because I posted the OP and was interested in other’s response This is not an OP about myself or how do I feel but about a Pentecostal response to a posted question I’d say 25% of churches in America roughly do giveaways or ruffles I know for a fact Terry Wiles does it
Roger Lewis
I doubt it’s the high, but who cares. So, do you want my response in tongues? ? Just having a little fun. Don’t get mad at me.
Varnel Watson
BTW as of 2010 there were only 350,000 religious congregations in the United States and quickly declining Of those, about 314,000 were Protestant and 24K Catholic This numbers have obviously decreased since 210, so your 400K number is more like 275,000 today
On the tongues thing:
I cannot demand your response in tongues because God gives the utterance not me or you
At the same time you cannot indulge me by giving your response in tongues for the same reason – about this time I usually ask what is a non-Pentecostal like you doing in a group like this 🙂
Terry Wiles
Troy Day lol. You think you know. But you don’t.
Varnel Watson
aint that how you got your iPad mini?
Roger Lewis
Troy Day shoot, I got an iPad Pro.
Varnel Watson
I got pro cover if you want it 🙂
Roger Lewis
Troy Day I am as Pentecostal as they come, my friend.
Terry Wiles
I got several unsolicited phone calls.
Varnel Watson
that’s because you dont have the app Roger Lewis how bapticostal would you say you are?
Roger Lewis
Not at all. A/G as long as I can remember.
Varnel Watson
Good for you Dont say that anywhere 🙂
Roger Lewis
Troy Day say what? That I’m Pentecostal or A/G?
Roger Lewis
I assume we’re all Christ followers first then whatever church we fellowship with.
Varnel Watson
that your church believe in the Holy Ghost baptism
Roger Lewis
Troy Day too late. I done messed that one up.