GAP THEORY CREATION

GAP THEORY CREATION
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Ricky L Bagwell What does the gap theory have to do with salvation? And    I know exactly when satan fell. He fell when God kicked him out. The problem I have is that everyone that I have heard try to explain the gap theory says that God recreated the earth in six days. I don’t buy it and I won’t teach it. What I have experienced is that people have left the church because they have been taught a simple GOD CREATED THE EARTH IN SIX DAYS AND RESTED ON THE 7th. Now some teachers are trying to bring in preadamic
Ricky L Bagwell Teaching and it confuses people. Salvation folks that is where it is at. Through Jesus Christ not a gap theory
Drew Banacos The gap theory is a joke. It’s pure speculation. We have no evidence in science or revelation that suggests that this is likely.
Ricky L Bagwell I am with you Drew. Drew in your thoughts why do you think people spend so much time trying to prove  the gap?
Drew Banacos It might be how some respond to scientists that observe that the earth appears older than 6-literal-day creationists espouse it to be. It seems like an attempt to explain why the earth is old even though there were 6 literal days of creation. Another theory I’ve heard is to make each creation day 1,000 years (based upon some random passage in the Psalms). This is an attempt to extract science from the Bible. But the Bible isn’t meant to be a science textbook. It is the inspired Word of God. It’s function has nothing to do with answering questions about cell division, physics, etc. I think some Christians are afraid evolutionary theory leads to atheism or that at least it’s blasphemy because God created. I find neither of these accusations helpful. Atheism as a conclusion about God’s existence seems to be more connected to philosophy than science. At least logically it is. I know there are people who are atheists because they think being Christian requires that one views the Bible as answering every question about science.
Wahyu How old do you believe the earth is? When did dinosaurs live? How are we able to see light from stars millions of light years away?
Troy Day John Conger Roger David Ricky Grimsley Alan N Carla Smith Tom Steele The pre-Adamic race GAP theory explains it all:1. Where lost souls come from? 2. Where the demons come from? 3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? 5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? 6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? 7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? 8. Age of earth? 9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark? 10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?Just try to explain the above without pre-Adamic race GAP theory and you will see for yourself…   http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamic-race…/
Drew Banacos To answer #5, Ancient Near Eastern literature, including the Hebrew Scriptures, are full of parallelism and repetition. It doesn’t mean that there are literally 2 creations. It could be possible but we have no proof that even suggests that the gap theory actually pertains to reality. As I’ve already said, this theory is a lot of speculation.
Pete Fiske There is no pre-Adamite world [http://creation.com/pre-adamites-and-human-fossils] or Lucifer’s flood [https://answersingenesis.org/…/what-about-the-gap-and…/] in Scripture, That is pure-D nonsense made up by compromisers to evolutionary thinking, which needs ‘millions of years’ to be viable. The Bible teaches an earth of less than 10K years.
Wahyu I believe in the gap theory but my question is for those who don’t. I would like to hear coherent arguments….and not just the lazy “gotta take it in faith”
Linda Brown Bilbrey Maybe you can show us where you got your definition of faith? Never heard it described as lazy!
Brian Crisp I believe I’m the gap theory as it explains a lot.
Troy Day Calvinists dont. As well as people who think God predestined them to be something He did not
Timothy Ross Actually the Reformed movement are the ones who taught it originally it lost popularity about 70 years ago in most circles.
Ricky L Bagwell Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Romans clearly states by the sin of one man being Adam sin came into the world so if you believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God then the possibility of the sin of man could not exist before Adam. And as for as dinosaurs, sure why couldn’t they be here before Adam after all the fish and mammals and reptiles and so on came before man. God made man told him to name them. Don’t have any problem with those critters. Don’t think He put them in the Ark. God only put on the ark what He wanted. Not what Noah wanted.
Pete Fiske Dinosaurs weren’t here before Adam because both Adam and all land animals,  including dinosaurs,  were created on Day 6 of Creation Week (Genesis 1).
Ricky L Bagwell Pete Fiske yep
Wahyu So carbon dating is wrong? On what basis? Wasnt satans sin the first? What about light?
Ricky L Bagwell Yes carbon dating is for from accurate. A study was done and six pieces cut from one piece and given to six scientist all six came back different some with thousands of years defference it’s been along time since studied this. I believe it came from dr Carl Baugh. The way I read Genesis 1 is that God created something out of nothing. Just a big ball of water and that was in the beginning. The whole key word here is God “created” meaning to bring something new into existence. And if there where a gap then Would have to recreate the earth which would mean to make something old into new, therefore somewhere in between these verses based on a “theory” it would have to read that God recreated and it just isn’t there.
Wahyu The argument against carbon dating is if the deterioration is static or accelerates. Still doesnt back up the young earth creation idea. And the light?
Pete Fiske I’ve studied all forms of radiometric dating in my geophysics classes when I was working on my MSc in physics education.  C14 (radiocarbon) dating is never used by evolutionists to datw anything older than 50,000 yrs (because C14 has a Half-Life of 5,700 yrs & there’s only 10 Half-Lives in a molecule of C14 [composed of 14 Carbon atoms]). May I ask, do u know what you’re talking about?
Wahyu Lol need attention much?
Ricky L Bagwell In the first 4 days God is bringing an order to creation. On day 5 and 6 He brings life to creation.
Rico Hero Ricky L Bagwell What does the gap theory have to do with salvation? Rico:Great question, Ricky!This is the connection of the Gap Theory and salvation: It gives the Bible validity as the Word of God and this encourages people to hear his Word, get faith, and be saved (Rom.10:17 NKJV).The preaching of Creation 6000 years ago made the Bible seem like a myth to me– to so many people as well. To hear that God created everything 6000 years ago, and he was the light separating day from night in day 1, day 2 ,and day 3, until he decided to create the sun and moon in day 4, was enough for me to reject the Bible before actually reading it. If it wasn’t for someone showing me the truth God revealed regarding Creation, I may not have bothered to hear Gods Word.  If this is true with me, it certainly is true for many who still think the Bible is a myth because of the preaching of a young earth. 2 Peter 3:5New King James Version (NKJV)5 For THIS they willfully forget: THAT BY the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of water and in (surrounded by)  the water,Yet, in Gen. 1:2, the earth is not standing out of water.1 In the beginning God created (brought into existence) the heavens and the earth( earth defined as dry land in v10).2 and the earth (dry land) was ( from the verb, to BECOME, not to be) without form (tohuw, A WASTE) and void (bohuw, EMPTY), and darkness was upon the face of the waters.(Gen.1:1-2 KJV)As you can see, the earth, darkness, and water are already in existence before day one. Day one starts with light.  “and the evening and the morning were day one ”
Ricky L Bagwell Let me ask this question because I really like this conversation. And then I will continue. Who made the light and who put time into existence? Like I said I don’t remember a whole lot about the carbon dating other than the constant inaccuratcy
Rico Hero The light in day 1 came from the sun that was created long ago in the beginning. When God started the restoration work , the spirit hovered over the destroyed earth (Gen.1:2). When he said let their be light to divide night and day, he re-set the rotation of the earth ( the rotation of earth is how we get night and day.).In day 2 he restored the atmosphere , the firmament or an expanse dividing the water and clouds or waters above the firmament.The 3rd day he restored dry land so that the earth once again stood out of water and restored plant life .The 4th day he made (not create) the sun and moon to give seasons (by restoring the circuit of the earth is how we get seasons).The 5th day sea and birds. The 6th day animals and man
Ricky L Bagwell You know Ricco I don’t have a problem with time. Man can put as many years on the earth he wants don’t really matter whether it’s 6,7,8 thousand are millions and even billions. The problem is the existence of man here on earth before adam
Drew Banacos Based upon these posts, it seems like the gap theory is an attempt to explain why the earth is old even though there were 6 days of creation. Another theory I’ve heard is to make each creation day 1,000 years (based upon some random passage in the Psalms). This is an attempt to extract science from the Bible. But the Bible isn’t meant to be a science textbook. It is the inspired Word of God. It’s function has nothing to do with answering questions about cell division, physics, etc. I think some Christians are afraid evolutionary theory leads to atheism or that at least it’s blasphemy because God created. I find neither of these accusations helpful. Atheism as a conclusion about God’s existence seems to be more connected to philosophy than science. At least logically it is. I know there are people who are atheists because they think being Christian requires that one views the Bible as answering every question about science.
Troy Day Actually, a pre-Adamic race GAP theory also explains it all:1. Where lost souls come from? 2. Where the demons come from? 3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? 5. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? etc. Do you have answers to those Drew Banacos
Drew Banacos I’m not entirely sure what you mean by #1. I really don’t know what #5 means. There is no mention of a flat earth or a globe in Genesis 1. The rest of the questions can only be answered through a lot of speculation which is why I have no conclusive answers. The gap theory may be compatible with these questions as it would offer an easy answer. But that doesn’t mean we have any reason to believe that the gap theory is true. Again, what do we have in revelation or science that even points in this direction?
Rico Hero RickyYEC have the view that everything was created 6000 years ago so when they read in Romans that by one man sin entered the world, they do not factor that the world that then was had its own rules. they just think evolution, which is a false theory.After  the restoration of the earth and creation of life again, it was good until Adam transgressed Gods Law and brought sin and death into the world. Adam, this one man, brought sin and death into the restored earth that God made good and  had no sin.
Troy Day Henry Volk Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers, a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitchcock. It gained widespread attention when a “second creative act” was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible. In 1954, a few years before the re-emergence of Young Earth Flood geology eclipsed Gap creationism, influential evangelical theologian Bernard Ramm wrote in The Christian View of Science and Scripture
Ricky L Bagwell God created the heavens and the earth, period.  Not me not us not theologians not science. I love this conversation. But the bible is not written based on a theory it is truth. Please don’t replace the words written with our on intellect. The young earth, old earth, gap theory are all theory’s. That means that is what you think it says are you idea of what it says. There is no theologian that can prove that God recreated the earth that is why it has always been a theory. Pray read mediate look carefully at what the word says. God is an awesome God and is created of all the universe we have to be careful with theory’s because it looks some are trying to be smarter than God. That’s why I read what I see and believe it. Genesis 1 read it and show me recreate.
Timothy Ross The Hebrew word meaning refers to a time of judgement in formless and void when one looks up those two words.That is one point many use.
Ricky L Bagwell God made the earth out of water then He made the light then He made stars and land and animals and man. He made the sun for us. I know about Scofield and Dakes and I don’t by it because it was a theory based of what the thought. Let me ask you all one last thing. Could God have created all in one day.
Troy Day same questions to you Ricky 1. Where lost souls come from? 2. Where the demons come from? 3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? 5. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? etc. Do you have answers to those???
Ricky L Bagwell I can answer these it will take me a little while that’s a lot of questions. It will good for me thanks get started right away and I will do the best I can.
Ricky L Bagwell Now do you have a answer to my auestion
Ricky L Bagwell Sorry question
Wahyu I believe scientific discoveries support scripture but scientific theory does not. Look at the prophecies of tyre, Alexander the great. Look at the scripture about the rivers In the ocean. But to completely dismiss science only makes us look like fools
Drew Banacos Scripture doesn’t talk about science.
Wahyu The man who charted the currents of the ocean did so because scripture spoke of the rivers in the ocean. Isaiah spoke of the circle of the earth…not science? How about things that are seen being made up of things unseen?
Timothy Ross Drew Banacos I agree science,math ,health are not what the Bible is trying to talk about.
Ricky L Bagwell Nobody asking to dismiss science but it can’t overrule Gods pefect plan I science proves to man to be right then good I use science to prove God to be right. But disapprove science to prove man to be right
Rico Hero RickyI certainly agree that God created the heavens and the earth. He most certainly did create the heavens and earth rather quickly for in Isa. it says he did not create the earth empty. I also cannot ignore the Apostle Peter saying the heavens were of Old or the most straightforward and literal interpretation of Genesis that shows it to be a restoration. I also agree to pray, read carefully what the word says.And yes, our God is an awesome God
Ricky L Bagwell Amen brother: then if you say it is a restoration then that says that the very words written are a lie
Timothy Ross The idea is the verses that state form and void refer to a cosmic judgement in Hebrew words.
Ricky L Bagwell And there are no lies are misinterpretation in Gods word.
Ricky L Bagwell I ask a question does anybody that believes in the gap theory believe that God, had it been according to His plan, could have made the creation happen in 1 -24 hour day
Ricky Grimsley God spoke the world into existence in an instant. The recreation took 7 days because God wanted it to perhaps to institute the sabbath. He could have done what ever he wanted.
Ricky L Bagwell My question still hasn’t been anwserd
Ricky L Bagwell Bible dosent say recreation it say creation
Ricky L Bagwell Totally different meaning
Ricky L Bagwell He created in 6 days rested on day seven that is what He says
Ricky Grimsley When did he create the angels then. In job it says they watched.
Ricky L Bagwell Ricky Grimsley Don’t know the time He created them when He created them.
Timothy Ross Ricky L Bagwell let me tell you another idea you might be blown away by. God spoke it all into existence in on day one and everything else was a process and time went from old to very young within the days progressively as shown in scripture. What I mean it was spoken to look and be old in age but in the eyes of God it is young.This is another idea or interpretation some may hold.
Ricky L Bagwell Timothy Ross
Ricky L Bagwell Timothy Ross so who’s right God are man
Timothy Ross Ricky L Bagwell God said  Let there be light… And the light was who the Lamb of God the vehicle of creation the Son and the Agency of the Spirit did the work. The known Universe like stars and sun and moon day 4.Before this is no time as we know it.
Ricky Grimsley Look “by one man sin entered our world” but satan had already sinned and messed up the original world.
Ricky L Bagwell Exactly
Ricky L Bagwell Rick Hero you questions dissapeare
Rico Hero RickyThe written word defines earth as dry land and the written word shows that the earth, darkness, and water were already in existence before day one. day  one began with light. “and the evening and the morning were day one ”, so how can restoration be a lie.
Ricky L Bagwell Can you resend them please
Rico Hero got to go take dog for one last walk. Good night brother!
Ricky L Bagwell In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. No dry land here looks like only water.
Ricky L Bagwell More to come
Ricky Grimsley The earth became without form and void
Ricky Grimsley Isaiah 45:18 KJVS[18] For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.
Ricky L Bagwell Transliteration: bohuwPronunciation: bō’·hü Part of Speech: masculine nounRoot Word (Etymology): from an unused root (meaning to be empty)Outline of Biblical Usage:emptiness, void, wasteKJV Translation Count:3 Total void 2, emptiness 1Strong’s Definitions: בֹּהוּ bôhûw, bo’-hoo; from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:—emptiness, void.
Ricky Grimsley Jeremiah 4:23-27 KJVS[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. [24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. [25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. [26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger. [27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.If you try to make this noahs flood then you have many inconsistencies to rectify.
Ricky L Bagwell This deffently not Noah’s flood there’s nothing in the scripture about a flood
Timothy Ross Science has shown a meteor hit the earth wiping out what ever was hear which fits Genesis beginnings. I believe in a different take on the Gap then most Gap folks. I am not saying it was millions of years ago or anything but it does fit the scriptures and what some call science. That a meteor hit and cause a global chain reaction that split the continents during that time.And the possible Ice age was possibly apart of it. I think the earth is at least 360,000 years old or younger. I believe modern society as the Bible speaks starts as 4004 bc.. I contend that there was 6,000 years before that of something we are not told in the Bible.  I am not really a Gap person in the traditional thought but believe some of the ideas and mix it with some of the other interpretations and try to have my own thoughts.
Ricky L Bagwell 23. Graphic picture of the utter desolation about to visit Palestine. “I beheld, and lo!” four times solemnly repeated, heightens the awful effect of the scene (compare Isa 24:19 34:11 ).      without form and void–reduced to the primeval chaos ( Gen 1:2 ).      24. mountains– ( Isa 5:25 ).      moved lightly–shook vehemently.      25. no man. . . birds–No vestige of the human, or of the feathered creation, is to be seen ( Eze 38:20 Zep 1:3 ).      26. fruitful place–Hebrew, Carmel.      a wilderness–Hebrew, “the wilderness,” in contrast to “the fruitful place”; the great desert, where Carmel was, there is now the desert of Arabia [MAURER].      cities–in contrast to the fruitful place or field.      27. full end–utter destruction: I will leave some hope of restoration ( Jer 5:10, 18 30:11 46:28; compare Lev 26:44 ).      28. For this–on account of the desolations just described ( Isa 5:30 Hsa 4:3 ).      not repent– ( Num 23:19 ).
Ricky Grimsley Exactly. Its an account of the state of the world before the six day creation. Showing that the once perfect world had been destroyed and was now” without form and void”
Ricky L Bagwell These scriptures has nothing to do with Genesis 1 this is a prophecy about Jeruselum
Ricky L Bagwell Palistine
Ricky L Bagwell Jeremiah is a prophet  he describing destruction to come
Ricky Grimsley When where there ever be “no man”?
Ricky Grimsley “No birds”
Ricky L Bagwell If you where to describe these scriptures there nothing destroyed by water and there is a remnet. Now if the gap theory says that the earth was totally destroyed and re done then there wouldn’t be a remnant
Timothy Ross That is were some guys like me are reinterpreting what the Gap idea is.
Ricky L Bagwell There will always be man some will be in heaven some in hell. And the only time from the one and only creation in Genesis wail the earth be totally destroyed by fire and there will come a new heaven and a new earth it will not be a recreated one it will be new. When that day comes we will be there living
Ricky L Bagwell Every thing will flee from Palestine at that time
Ricky L Bagwell Including the birds. To me the entire book of Jeremiah needs to be red and studied before taking a a few verses and try to fit them some where else he is the weeping prophet because he always brought news of distraction and punishment he was beatin many times over but always stud up to share Gods word
Ricky Grimsley And this…2 Peter 3:7 KJVS[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.Sounds like and old earth and new earth?
Louise Cummings Read 2: Peter10–13. It says the old one will melt with a fervent heat both the earth and the elements will melt with fervent heat : both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. ( read the rest of the chapter. ).
Ricky Grimsley The old one was destroyed with a flood. This one will the destroyed with fire. Then there will be a new heaven and new earth.
Ricky Grimsley Plus when dis satan sin and what was his sin?
Timothy Ross In the beginning Satan who may not be the Devil or Lucifer sinned as some scholars teach there was four ages ruled by the Angels in the times before Adam. It looks as Hell was created for the Devil and His angels in Genesis mentioned the word Abyss.
Ricky L Bagwell Satan sinned when he came against God he was one of the highest ate the highest order of seraphim. They have free will he thought he  better than God. The exact time of fall I don’t really know. Being that Lucifer was a spiritual being it could have happened at any time before Adam. I will have to check again but the fallen angels are Locke up in hell awaiting judgment like I said I will have to go back and recheck that  but satan sin was rebellion.
Ricky L Bagwell 2nd Peter 7 is referring to the coming destruction. It’s talking about the days of old the way things where but they have changed and will not be destroyed by water but by fire. The verses are also telling us that sin will never go unpunished the final punishment will be of fire. Sure I believe in an old earth but not necessarily in years because frankly I just can’t put actual years maybe I like just along time ago whether 2 years are two million.
Troy Day So to sum it up again – This is NOT a young earth discussion here Henry Volk and Pete Fiske has already built a strong  case for that otherwise. This discussion raises questions like 1. Where lost souls come from? 2. Where the demons come from? 3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? 5. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? etc. Do you have answers to those? Please share! As John Conger and Ricky Grimsley has pointed our, it is virtually impossible to give a straight Biblical answers to the above question without involving the Genesis Gap theory at one point or another http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamic-race…/
Pete Fiske Absolute rubbish! False doctrine that leads already scientifically illiterate and theologically naive Christians astray.  What About the Gap & Ruin-Reconstruction Theories?  https://answersingenesis.org/…/what-about-the-gap-and…/
Henry Volk Gap theory is a good place to get your feet wet, but theistic evolution is where it’s at. 😉
Timothy Ross Dr Hough Ross has some interesting research and made Dr Ken Hovind look silly on the John Ankerberg show .
Henry Volk Is Ross Intelligent Design of Theistic Evolution?  I can’t remember lol 😅
Ricky Grimsley I dont believe in darwinian evolution but we are evolving now through directed evolution. If god does not intervene there is no telling what the transhumanists have in store for us
Ricky L Bagwell God will intervene and all better be ready
Ricky L Bagwell It will be when He decides
Pete Fiske The ‘Gap’ theory is heresy Ricky, I’ve shown you from bother science and Scripture, why it can’t be true. If you want, we can go down that route again.
Ricky Grimsley Actually i feel like like God “face palms” himself when people think the world is six thousand years old.
Ricky L Bagwell John Lennon said something like that once
Ricky Grimsley
Troy Day Evolution and older earth cannot explain where Satan comes from. All their supporters at one point have to deny the fall of Satan and at another even his very existence. This cannot be a Biblical position. It’s humanistic!
Pete Fiske No Troy Day, earth is thousands (between 6K and 10K yrs) old, not 4.6 billion, or even close to that. Unfortunately, too many Christians have been snookered by the secularist evolutionary idea of ‘deep time’, or millions of supposed years. There is no objective,and independent scientific evidence, let alone any scriptural evidence for that.
Timothy Ross I have a propose teaching a young earth gap teaching that settles it possibly.
Rico Hero Ricky L Bagwell :In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. No dry land here Rico:No dry land here because the earth becomes empty and wet. God named the dry land earth (v10). Earth means dry land. So what happened to cause the earth or dry land to become empty, to be covered with deep water and with darkness? If you say that is how God created. How can you have the earth, water, and darkness before the  first day of creation?The first day begins with light, not darkness. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.”And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day. (Gen.1:3-5 NLT)
Henry Volk Genesis 1 & 2 are theology not science.  Problem solved. :^)
Rico Hero The theological problem for YEC is having the earth, water, and darkness as uncreated 🙂
Troy Day http://www.reasons.org/…/nobel-winning-dna-research…
Pete Fiske Hugh Ross,  founder and president of Reasons to Believe is a theistic evolutionist, who, like other Creation Compromisers before  him (Chalmers,  Scofield,  & Dake) has sold out Biblical truth and scientific integrity for pseudo-theological quackery.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske lol He did not sale out He came to Jesus by seeing the process of Genesis. He makes some very good argument against Yec based on the Yom with many other theologians with His science research of many others.And many of his people are Pentecostal by the way isn’t ironic don’t you think.
Peter Ciple Could someone please define GAP theory in a nutshell please. Thanks.
Rico Hero The Gap Theory is defined as having an undetermined amount of time between Creation In The Beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth( Gen.1:1) and the destruction of the earth, when the earth becomes empty and wet, covered in deep water and darkness (Gen.1:2). 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth( earth  is defined as dry land in v10).2 and the earth (dry land) was ( from the verb, to BECOME, not to be) without form (tohuw, A WASTE) and void (bohuw, EMPTY), and darkness was upon the face of the waters.(Gen.1:1-2 KJV)In Genesis 1:3 is the start of restoring the earth and new creations by God in 6 literal days 6000 years ago. The Gap theory accepts the Apostle Peters creation account that the heavens were of old and earth standing out of water2 Peter 3:5New King James Version (NKJV)5 For THIS they willfully forget: THAT BY the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of water and in (surrounded by)  the water,But in Genesis 1:2, the earth is not standing out of water. So what happened to cause the earth or dry land to become empty, to be covered with deep water and with darkness?The Gap Theory has no connection to evolution. Gap Theorist reject Theistic Evolution. Theistic Evolution does not read Genesis in a literal sense and they see God using evolution to bring about man over time. From a monkey like creature to modern man. The Gap Theory simply sees the pre-Adam life existing on earth and destroyed by God in Genesis 1:2 and the restoration and new creation of man 6000 years ago. No Evolution.
Peter Ciple Ok thanks for the information Rico Hero.
Pete Fiske The only reason for the make-believe ‘gap’ is to appease some not well thought out reason to sound “more scientific” to try to squeeze millions of supposed years into Scripture,  when it doesn’t fit!
Pete Fiske Troy,  good buddy,  there’s no special creation account in 2 Peter 3 that’s any different from the one and only Creation Week faithfully recorded in Genesis 1. The ‘gap’ is non-existent in Scripture,  and incompatible with science.
Timothy Ross The Gap theory was the standard interpretation until about 70 years ago among most teachers.It lost favor for Theistic Evolution and Yec folks in recent history. I find error in all three theories and Have come up with my own thoughts.
Troy Day In short: Gap theory is a theory about a gap
Peter Ciple Thanks.
Bibliata Net Thomas Newberry Reference Bible of 1890 published in LondonSeveral weeks ago, in a discussion on GAP THEORY, someone asked about the resource on the picture above. This is indeed the Thomas Newberry Reference Bible of 1890 published in London. It was not the first work to print or cite GAP THEORY, but was the first one to popularize it the English speaking world. It used traditional Jewish resources written/printed in Hebrew by rabbinic sources. This debunks the hypothesis that DAKE or SCOFIELD were the first ones to propose or popularize the GAP THEORY in English. The Newberry Study Bible was out of print for a long time, but just recently was put back to print and could be freely purchased. There’s also a free PDF copy of the first print available    http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/thomas-newberry…/
Ricky L Bagwell 29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Rico Hero I had a look at the PDF copy.There is no reference to a Gap or a pre Adam life in the Newberry Bible of 1890. A google search turn nothing on Newberry  teaching a Gap. But Ken Ham does mention in one of his articles against Gap Theory, saying NewBerry implies or allows for it ( a gap) .
Rico Hero According to the National Center for Science and Education,                                  snip                                                                                                                           Gap Theorists Before DarwinIt was definitely Thomas Chalmers, a divinity professor at the University of Edinburgh, who popularized the gap theory. He first lectured on it in 1814 and attributed it to Episcopius:My own opinion, as published in 1814, is that it [Genesis 1:1] forms no part of the first daybut refers to a period of indefinite antiquity when God created the worlds out of nothing. The commencement of the first day’s work I hold to be the moving of God’s Spirit upon the face of the waters. We can allow geology the amplest time . . . without infringing even on the literalities of the Mosaic record. . . .[Bixler, 1986, pp. 86-87]
Ricky L Bagwell https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1583144698644805&id=100008478699854
Ricky L Bagwell All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation: The scoffers base their message on the idea that things have always been they way they are right now, and that God has not and will not do anything new in His plan for creation.i. “The argument of the false teachers is essentially a naturalistic one – a kind of uniformitarianism that rules out divine intervention in history.” (Blum)3. (5-7) The error of scoffers.For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.a. For this they willfully forget: The scoffers presume upon the mercy and longsuffering of God, insisting that because they have never seen a widespread judgment of God, that there will never be one. But they willfully forget God’s creation and the judgment God poured out on the earth in the days of Noah.i. A literal belief in Creation, in Adam and Eve, and in Noah’s Flood are essential for a true understanding of God’s working both then and now. To deny these things undermines the very foundations of our faith. Sadly, today it is many Christians who willfully forget these things, thereby putting themselves in the place of scoffers.
Ricky L Bagwell 2nd Peter 3-5 is talking about in the days of Noah.
Ricky L Bagwell I believe that the earth is old, matter of fact real old, because in Rev. 1: 8 says that God is the alpha and omega he is the first and the last. And that means He is the beginning and the end. He is the Almighty One.And the reason I know the earth is old is that in Rev. 21: 1 John says he saw a new heaven and a new earth.I believe there was dinosaurs. But what does that have to do with a gap. God put on the ark what He wanted. Most likely what would fit. Why even believe in a gap. I truly know that Dakes was wrong about pre-adamic belief some take the scripture in Genesis 1: 28 where it says to replenish to mean replace when it means to fill. Fruitful means to increase and multiply means to become many are to great and numerous. And if you pay close attention to the order. It is 1. Be fruitful. 2. Then multiply. 3. Then replenish.1.fruitful- to cause to bear fruit, grow to show fruitfulness.2. Then he says to become many, become numerous. To make great, enlarge, DO MUCH.3.then God said to fill, to be full, to consecrate, to be filled, be armed, be satisfied, accomplished , complete.Strong’s Greek 6509, 7235, 4390.`Elohiym barak `elohiym amar parah rabah male“erest kabash radah dagah yam `owph shamayim chay ramas `erets.This is the scripture written in Greek.
Ricky L Bagwell And also there was a question about when did demon come into existence, they came when lucifer was coasted out. The word devil and demon are the same, daimonizomai this the Greek word also meaning devil also referred to as evil spirits.Spirit means breath are to breath on. The fallen angels are in chains locked up in hell awaiting judgement. 2nd Peter 2:4.And yet the definition of angel is messenger.The spirits of the Angels linger in our world since the day the devil and his angles where cast down. They are sin, the sin that gets in our minds are hearts and our souls. One of the ways that the manifest is by drawing our thoughts away from his word and to get us to believe other than what the word says. The devil can deceive the smartest and the most intelectual man on earth so we must resist the devil if you do then he will flee. Don’t let him distract you. We fight not against flesh and blood but against the principalities of and the evil darkness. Do not let theory draw you away
Rico Hero Brother Ricky L BagwellThe promise of his (Jesus) coming(2Pet3:4) is preceded by divine signs:19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath:Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,And the moon into blood,Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. (Acts 2:19-20).When the scoffers  questioned the promise of His (Jesus) coming and argued against it because “all things continue as they were from the begining of creation” (2Pet.3:4). They implied no changes or signs as described in Acts 2:19-20 and other places that will singal the great and awsome day of the Lord— who will then set up a literal kingdom here on earth 1000 years. (ps. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis does not believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ. He is amillennial. In his “7 Cs” preaching, Ken Ham goes from the Cross to Consummation. No reign of Christ 1000 years before consummation.) Uniformitarianism in geological science is the shaping of the earths surface by gradual processes, such as erosion that produced places like the Grand Canyon, and by small sudden changes, such as earthquakes, of the type acting today rather than divine acts. To try and infer this as what the scoffers were argueing is simply not the case.The Apostle Peters response to these scoffers who saw no signs of the promise of his (Jesus) coming– “for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”(2Pet.3:4) is to point to Gods word, which they willfully fogot, that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of water (2Pet.3:5). This is in stark contrast to the Genesis creation account that took place 6000 years ago, because you have the earth covered in water and darkness before the start of creation on the first day 6000 years ago. Genesis 1:2 describes the first universal flood that destroyed the world that then existed. Noahs flood did not destroy all life because of the arc. After the 1000 year reign of Christ, there will be a rebellion and the earth will be once again be renovated, but this time by fire. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.(2 Pet.3:7).4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.Satanic Rebellion Crushed7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.(Rev.20)
Pete Fiske I see you’re a Dake follower.  Finis Jennings Dake was a false prophet whose theological commentaries in his Bible and his pseudo-theological rag, “God’s Plan for Man” are literally riddled with error!  Dake blindly carried on the shameful traditional of carrying on the evolutionist compromise of the “Gap” theory to a uninformed and therefore unsuspecting Body of Christ.
Rico Hero Pete FiskeBrother, I am not sure why your attacking Dake here. He is not mentioned nor are any of his notes mentioned here this post. If you have an issue with something I said on this post lets have it. Also, I am curious as to your thoughts on Ken Ham who is amillennial. Are you also
Pete Fiske Ken Ham isn’t an amillennialist, that’s just the false impression you get from not really studying what Ken is saying and then correlating that with what Scripture teaches here. FYI, I’m a pre-Tribulation believer,  since this is what the Word teaches,  and since the Word of God is my Authority,  I believe what it says. The reason I attack Dake is because more than any other Charismatic teacher (I attend an Assemblies of God church) this charlatan has promoted this false doctrine of the heretical “gap” in Charismatic and Pentecostal theological circles,  more so than any other teacher (in his case,  falsely so-called).
Rico Hero Ken Ham is an amillennial because In his “7 Cs” preaching, Ken Ham goes from the Cross to Consummation. No reign of Christ 1000 years before consummation. What scripture teaches here (2Pet.3:4-5) is completely different than what Ham teaches. Uniformitarianism is not taught here. Ken Ham tries to make a connection to evolution but it seems more of a deflection than truth. As for Dake, he believes in the 1000 year reign.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske He is a cessationist worth not my time.
Ricky L Bagwell I am not sure what you are saying here. But let me see if I get it right. You are saying that God did not create the earth from the beginning . Are or you saying that God did and then destroyed twice with a flood are are you saying that God took a world that already existed that was already populated flooded made a new earth and then destroyed it again. I am confused. I am really kind of a simple pastor. In a few short words can you explain so you can help out?
Brian Crisp I believe when you study closely the gap theory explains a lot. Demons are not the same as fallen angels and as far as life before Adam is very possible and also other life along with him.
Timothy Ross I believe the demons were from the offspring of the spirits of the Giants as do many Jews.
Brian Crisp Yes that is what it appears to be.
Timothy Ross Some people believe demons were the spirits of the creation before Adam.I mention the possibility if both when teaching on the subject.
Brian Crisp Yeah there is a possibility of both. I mean demons do come in different shape, sizes, characteristics, apperence etc
Timothy Ross The reason I say what I did Jeremiah 4 talks about cities in the ancient times before Adam 4004 bc.
Brian Crisp I would say that race of beings joined in with Lucifer when be fell and they were wiped out.
Rico Hero RickyYes. Two universal floods. The first one in Gen.1:2You see water in Genesis 1:2, right?You see the Spirit hovering over the water in Gen.1:2, right?What did God do next? He said let there be light in Gen.1:3, right? When did the first day start? It started with light.  And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day.So what did God do the first day?He allowed light to shine on the waters of Genesis 1:2 and seperated the light from darkness. And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day.Do you see God doing anything else the first day? NoSo when was the water that covered the earth in Genesis 1:2, created? How about the earth that was covered in water in Genesis 1:2?When was it created? Remember, the first day started with light and God seperated the light from darkness.The water, the earth covered in water and darkness were already there before the first day. So how can this be? How can you have water and the earth covered with water and darkness before the first day of creation?You simply cannot have uncreated water and earth and darkness.
Ricky L Bagwell So, you must not believe that God created the universe. Because if you did then you would see the beginning more clearly. The gap theory is leaving out 1 major verse. That is Genesis 1:1 in the beginning GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. I don’t understand how those that believe in some gap theory can’t get it. Once again GOD CREATED. He created. So why does  the gap theory go back and want to recreate. If the gap theory believes that God recreated, then the gap theory is calling God a liar. When GOD separated the light from the darkness He called the first day. There was no one here before the fist day. If so there is simply no evidence, only that of which very few theologians have tried to teach. Why is so important to disprove the word of God.I had a lady come to my church and left angry because all her life she had been taught since a child that God created the earth In 6 days and then some Sunday school teacher tried to convince an interesting class that it was recreated and she won’t come back. I have to correct it all mind the wounds and try to patch it up. Because some gap theory that started in the late 1800s. Then Dakes and scolefield. Wow people are falling away because of a theory. To me theory is of satan because it has not been proven.
Rico Hero I believe God created everything in the beginning, in Genesis 1:2 He destroyed the earth and in Genesis 1:3 he began restoring it. Thats what it says
Timothy Ross Yes that is what it says period.Note Genesis 1:1-5 was before time.Time did not begin till day 4.
Rico Hero Timothy RossTime is the movement from past to present to future.Earths time was restored the first day when God “separated the light from darkness” ..”and evening passed and morning came, marking the first day”.Are you allegorizing the first three days? Are you Catholic?
Rico Hero Ricky, yes. God made the water and the earth that was covered in water before the first day
Ricky L Bagwell I am done with gap theory it is heresy. Against the word of God. I will ask you one more question. Are you Pentecostal?
Pete Fiske The “Gap” theory, as popularized by false prophet, the late Finis Dake, is false doctrine, as there is no “gap” in Genesis 1:1-1:5, Jeremiah 4, or 2 Peter 3:5-7. Attempts to read a ‘gap’ into those verses is flawed eisegesis (reading things into the text that aren’t found there). And as both Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18 state…”Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.””I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.”
Mary Ellen Nissley Amen.
Timothy Ross FALSE PROPHET LOL
Ricky L Bagwell I am with Pete Fiske, well said.
Pete Fiske Thanks Ricky.
Brian Crisp Gap is not heresy. Whenever one doesn’t understand it agree with something that throw that word around. You cannot disprove the gap theory. It makes sense but because you don’t agree with it doesn’t bother me as we will find out one day. I can tell you this world is way older than 7000 years old. But if you believe that then that’s OK as it has no bearing in anything.
Ricky L Bagwell During this conversation I have researched which included talking with some bible scholars and they agree that there is no gap theory and that it stemmed from 1 mans belief. It has tried to raise its ugly head so many times and it has failed. Gap theorist have tried to prove to so many and it has no bases or foundation. To much speculation. To much personnel intelect. To many ideas.A group of great men of God has researched and done study’s and they don’t see it. If it is so true then why isn’t it explained in all bible commentaries. For as I know it is only in 3. And they where done by three different men.I was raised in both baptist and Pentecostal.  And neither one with the exception of a few believe this theory. So may people are led to Christ by through death, the burial and resurrection of Jesus. Then they were taught the scripture in Sunday school from Genesis to revelation and now the theorist are wanting to change it. Sounds like something our government wants to do. I will pray for the gap theorist to get understanding through the Holy Spirit and not through men.For now I am out of this conversation.Please try this, Trust in God and lean not on your on understanding. In Gods Love Rev. Rick Bagwell.
Timothy Ross Great men who? Do they have the Holy Ghost if not no thanks
Brian Crisp There are many more than that that have commentaries and writing on it. Matter of fact most Pentecostal preachers I know believe in the gap theory.
Pete Fiske Commentaries are written by men, God’s Word clearly teaches a “young”earth less than 10K years old.  It doesn’t matter how many Pentecostal preachers believe in a mythical “gap”, its not what God’s Word teaches.  In Genesis 1:1-5 the text speaks of all the creative acts of God on chronological (calendar) Day One.
Brian Crisp I wasn’t saying that commentaries are the gospel it was in response to an earlier comment that said only Dake believed it. The bible does not say how old the earth is.
Pete Fiske Genesis 1-11 and the genealogical information in Matthew and Luke tell us the earth is approximately 6,000 -7,000 years old (no ‘gap’ of millions of years needed! )
Brian Crisp That’s not what it says. How can God make something then all if a sudden in the next verse there is void darkness disorder etc.
Brian Crisp I believe in the gap you don’t so why argue. It has no bearing on salvation or anything.
Pete Fiske Yes Brian that is what the text of Scripture says. There’s absolutely no reference, either direct or implied,  of a pre- Creation Week existence or status of the earth.  Not understanding the original Hebrew words or how they apply in liturgical context leads to your misunderstanding,  and the collective misunderstanding of so many Christians,  who are unwittingly helping Satan spread this heresy of the ‘gap’, designed to lead people astray.
Pete Fiske And yes, it does have to do with salvation as the mangling of God’s Word to include a mythical “gap” allows people, not with a lot of theological or scientific training,  as I was when I was 14,  to unilaterally reject Christianity as silly,  and therefore the need for Salvation through Christ as a made up story.
Brian Crisp Your wrong. It’s not heresy how can it be because you been taught different or you don’t agree.
Brian Crisp Has no bearing at all on salvation. Salvation is in Jesus not creation or the timing of it.
Pete Fiske Brian you’re not giving me any coherent and objective evidence from Scripture or science,  just your “feelings”-based mere assertion…a vacuous denial (vacuous because you have not provided any evidence) which by themselves don’t mean anything.  And even worse, fact-free and thus vacuous denial in the face of objective evidence is more than just ignorance,  its stubborn pride! You don’t want to be shown to be wrong,  as I have done.  You remember what God says about human “pride”, don’t you  Brian?
Pete Fiske Brian,  do u preach out of the Dake Annotated Bible?  Just wondering.
Brian Crisp Nowhere does the bible give us the age of earth. I believe in the gap you don’t and that’s OK. I believe Jesus is only way to Heaven and I trust you do so that’s the main thing.
Brian Crisp I have one but never preached from it.
Pete Fiske Brian Crisp, rejection of God’s Word in Genesis leads to a slippery slope of unbelief,  which can, and has, lead to rejecting Salvation through Christ alone.  Its a sinister yet brilliant tactic Satan uses.
Brian Crisp It’s not rejection to believe in the gap
Pete Fiske It’s rejecting God’s revealed Word to teach damnable false doctrines like the non-existent ‘gap’.  That’s on YOU if you spread this heresy…a spiritual cancer of lies amongst God’s people! Take heed Brian, God is not mocked!
Brian Crisp Lol . Do you even know what damnable doctrines are? Don’t believe so because gap theory right or wrong won’t be. For instance some believe pre trib others believe mid others post. The two wrong ones are not teaching heresy they just wrong.
Pete Fiske Wrong doctrines can be spread innocently,  that’s a mere mistake due to ignorance,  which we all have some measure of. But once a person has been given enlightenment based on the truth of God’s Word,  and the objective evidence from say, science,  and they (you) still reject it, and in your case,  potentially teach it, then it becomes a case of willfully spreading false doctrine,  which is spreading heresy.
Brian Crisp Not true but whatever
Pete Fiske Yes, TRUE!  Apparently you’ve chosen to wallow in your lack of knowledge,  that’s called blatant ignorance (being dumb on purpose)!  If you want to be ignorant and believe in demonic heresy like the  supposed “gap”, that’s your business.  But, as a supposed ‘teacher’ of the Word of God,  you have NO RIGHT to lead any of thd precious souls whom you preach to astray with such false doctrines as the “gap”.
Brian Crisp Lol you get more and more ridiculous each time. Your hatefulness leads to nothing. It’s impossible to lead folks to Jesus with hatefulness.
Brian Crisp No need to keep going with it as I feel more and more sorry for you. You show lack of wisdom and maturity.
Pete Fiske Have you even read the volumes of content filled biblical truth I’ve written,  or were you in way over your head? You’re familiar with Romans 3:4 aren’t you? It doesn’t say:  “Let Dake be true and every man a liar. “
Brian Crisp I know the bible and you are using it wrong like Satan does.
Pete Fiske You should feel sorry for yourself for not yielding to a messenger from the Lord Jesus Christ,  me, who was sent to teach you to repent of your sin, adherence to  & spreading false doctrine (the “gap” heresy). U are pathetic.
Brian Crisp You ain’t been sent by God as you are not of His character.
Pete Fiske You can’t lead people to Jesus Christ teaching false doctrine.
Brian Crisp Right and that’s you.
Pete Fiske As usual, due to your incredibly pathetic lack of understanding you just don’t get it. “It” being that if a person is seeking God, but comes from a background where there’s never been any strong Christian influences,  where the spirituality seeking young person has never really been exposed to any sound Biblical teaching,  where they may have been immersed in secularist-based scientism (look up that term) instead of sound,  theistic based scientific training,  which affirms the Bible’s correct account of Creation,  minus a heretical attempt to make the biblical text conform to the unbiblical idea of supposed “deep time” (millions of years) via an unbiblical gobbledygook false doctrine known as the ‘gap theory. ‘  There’s thousands of such young spiritual truth seekers,  of which I was one, who are sharp enough to realize that the idea of billions of supposed years embedded in the false doctrine of the “gap” theory is nothing more than an unbiblical compromise to evolutionary thinking.  Pastors who fail to see this, and ignorantly partake in teaching this heresy  be held accountable by God! And believe me dude, you’d rather be held accountable by me than the Lord!
Pete Fiske Brian, REPENT of the sin of teaching this heresy (the gap theory), the Lord will be faithful and just to forgive you.
Pete Fiske No Brian,  that be you, Bro! If you just chose to believe this pseudoscientific and unbiblical nonsense (the gap theory) then you wouldn’t be so dedicated (yet pathetic at defending) to it. I think you’re lying about supposedly not teaching it to your unsuspecting congregation
Brian Crisp You ain’t saved. How do I know you may ask because I know atheist with more Jesus than you. I tried being nice and kind etc but you have demons and need deliverance.
Rico Hero Brother RickyYes, I am Pentecostal. I was born into Greek Orthodoxy. I enerted ministry in Orthodoxy and practiced Greek Orthodoxy. I left Orthodoxy over doctrine differences, but I recall that even after leaving Orthodoxy, I was still practicing Orthodox rituals on a daily basis out of habit. After about two months, it dawned on me what I was doing so stopped the Orthodox rituals.You (and Peter Fiske) are doing the same thing, my brothers, and are simply acting out against the Gap theory because of your conditioning as YEC. You guys are acting out of habit because of what you been taught and not because God said different. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (earth is defined in v10 as dry land)And the earth (dry land) was  ( from the verb to BECOME not to be) without form (tohuw, a WASTE), and void;(bohuw,EMPTY) and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.(Gen.1:1-2 KJV).
Ricky L Bagwell I like you Rico I would really like to sat at a table and talk about a lot of things. Yes I have been taught, and I am against the gap theory. To me a simple definition of gap is a hole are space where something is missing. That is why I don’t buy the theory. It’s because something is missing. God is all perfect He has a reason for everything. And if  it were proven then I will have to be taught all over again. I believe God created time, and He created matter and that He always existed. He created the earth.
Ricky L Bagwell What concerns me and I don’t remember who said it I have tried to find it in this conversation. I probably shouldn’t but I going to step out. Four words this person said that sticks with me. How could God have.
Pete Fiske What About the Gap & Ruin-Reconstruction Theories?Because of the accepted teachings of evolution, many Christians have tried to place a gap of indeterminate time between the first two verses of Genesis 1. Genesis 1:1–2 states: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened during this gap of time, but most versions of the gap theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of animal fossils) between the Bible’s first two verses. This version of the gap theory is sometimes called the ruin-reconstruction theory.Most ruin-reconstruction theorists have allowed the fallible theories of secular scientists to determine the meaning of Scripture and have, therefore, accepted the millions-of-years dates for the fossil record.Millions of years of deathSome theorists also put the fall of Satan in this supposed period. But any rebellion of Satan during this gap of time contradicts God’s description of His completed creation on Day 6 as all being “very good” (Genesis 1:31).All versions of the gap theory impose outside ideas on Scripture and thus open the door for further compromise. [http://bit.ly/1dZD9QU]https://answersingenesis.org/…/what-about-the-gap-and…/
Troy Day Pete Fiske When did Satan sin and failed from heaven?
Pete Fiske Troy Day there’s approximately 100 years between the Creation of man and the fall of man. Genesis 5 tells us that Adam was 130 when Seth was born. Genesis 4:25 tells us that Seth was a replacement for Abel (whom Cain slew/murdered). Ezekiel 28:13 tells us that Lucifer was still good in verse 13 and was in Eden, the Garden of God. Verse 15, which is accepted theological as chronologically after verse 13,  states that iniquity was found in Lucifer, and and a parallel reading of Isaiah 14 tells us what Lucifer did once iniquity was found in him, namely he rebelled with 1/3 of the angels and all of them were kicked out of Heaven. Now, it doesn’t take a lot of “theological rocket science” to put together a sequential picture,  a step-by-step series of events that tell us sometime after Creation Week (Genesis 1) Lucifer was in Eden, the Garden of God, and was still the anointed cherub (Ezekiel 28:13,14) until the pride he had in his own beauty and power corrupted him (Ezekiel 28:15, Isaiah 14). He then led a rebellion (chronologically before Adam and Eve fell from God’s grace…Genesis 3) and was exiled to earth with his army of fallen angels. At some point after that,  Lucifer, who had now become ‘Satan’ (Accuser) took the form of a talking snake,  and tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God, and fall from Grace. Now since God commanded Adam and Eve to ” be fruitful and multiply,  and FILL (Hebrew ~ Mal’e) the earth…” (Genesis 1:28) its likely that the corruption of sin had begun to adversely affect (and infect) Adam and his large family (of which Abel and Cain were only 2 of his sons.) So its likely that by the time Cain and Abel were strapping young men, probably in their early 20s (when most of the criminal behavior in humans occurs statistically) when the first murder happened.  Again, we go to Scripture to  cross-reference,  and in reading Genesis 5  we see that Adam was 130 (Genesis 5) when Seth was born, and that Seth was a replacement for Abel whom Cain murdered (Genesis 4:25). So just “when” did all of this drama take place? Within the first 130 years after Creation!   Remember that Adam lived to be 930!
Mary Ellen Nissley Pete Fiske  This is a FANTASTIC post! MANY Scriptural PROOFS that the gap theory is false!I shall be using this study you have done.
Pete Fiske Anything I can do help
Rico Hero Ricky L Bagwell The things God revealed about the Pre-Adam world are to explain the missing time that is implied between Genesis 1:1-2, and explain why Satan is found already fallen in the Garden of Eden. ps.I see from you r profile that you are a Texan. I live in beautiful Vancouver Canada. We had a youth group from Texas visit the Union Gospel Mission here in Vancouver a few years ago and I really liked the way they kept repeating, “you all”. :  ) I would be happy to oblige in sitting at a table with you and talk about a lot of things. You are welcome to come visit as my guest.
Rico Hero Pete Fiske What About the Gap & Ruin-Reconstruction Theories?Because of the accepted teachings of evolution, many Christians have tried to place a gap of indeterminate time between the first two verses of Genesis 1. Genesis 1:1–2 states: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”Rico:It is not because of evolution. No Gap Theorist Christian believes in evolution. In fact, Ken Ham on August 1, 1980 wrote an article  called the Gap Theory (Part A), and in this article he acknowledges this.He writes, “ It is only fair to say that gap theorists are opposed to evolution”So why is Ken Ham unfair here by saying,  “because of the accepted teachings of evolution, many Christians have tried to place a gap of indeterminate time between the first two verses of Genesis 1. Genesis 1:1–2” ?The reason Fundamental Christians accept the Gap is because it is the most literal and straightforward interpretation of Genesis 1:1-2.Ken Ham:There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened during this gap of time, but most versions of the gap theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of animal fossils) between the Bible’s first two verses. This version of the gap theory is sometimes called the ruin-reconstruction theory.Most ruin-reconstruction theorists have allowed the fallible theories of secular scientists to determine the meaning of Scripture and have, therefore, accepted the millions-of-years dates for the fossil record.Rico:It was God himself that defined the earth as dry land, not Gap theorist. Gods word says the earth (dry land) became a waste and empty and covered in water and darkness. Furthermore, you have the earth, water and darkness in existence before the first day of creation., so it is strange to me in deflecting this truth by trying to make Gap Theorist into evolutionist. Ken Ham:Millions of years of deathSome theorists also put the fall of Satan in this supposed period. But any rebellion of Satan during this gap of time contradicts God’s description of His completed creation on Day 6 as all being “very good” (Genesis 1:31).Rico:It is not a “supposed period” and many passages speak of a pre-Adam world. There is no contradiction between the world that then existed and was destroyed because of Lucifer’s rebellion made it bad and the restoration of the earth (dry land) in 6 days, that made it good.
Pete Fiske Rico Hero, yes indeed the supposed Pre-adamite world is hypothetical,  ans totally not found in the Scriptures anywhere.  And who are ‘you’ to criticize Ken Ham?  He has a MSc in Education , where’s your Masters?
Rico Hero Pete FiskeIts easy to say that the Gap is not found in scripture, but is hard to show that it is not there. I made the case as to the most straightforward and literal interpretation for it. You wish to show why this is wrong, lets have it. As for Ken Ham, You dont need a Masters,my brother, to point out that he wilfully forgot that Gap theorist are not evolutionist. Also I am concerned why you pay attention to an amillenial. Are you one as well?
Bibliata Net Pete Fiske 100 years? Where are you getting this from – the Koran?
Pete Fiske An exegetical premise drawn from the literal reading of several scriptures (Genesis 1, 4:25, 5:2-5; Ezekiel 28:13-15,; Isaiah 14), and knowledge of theology and science. I, unlike some of the folks here, don’t fall into the Hosea 4:6 category.
Troy Day Jim Price made a very good case about extra-Biblical sources that influence our theology on daily basis. Pete Fiske claim is a good example of that. No where the Bible talk about 100 years between the Creation of man and the fall of man. Literally no where! It is an extra Biblical source. At the same time Gap theory when discussed honestly holds a great number of valid Biblical references and helps explain major biblical doctrines John Conger Ricky Grimsley has made a great case in defense of its authenticity
Ricky L Bagwell Looked like Pete Fiski was giving us a number to look at. Do you have a exact number to the exact time. Notice the question mark behind 100. He doesn’t know the exacts a neither does anyone else. It appears to me that gap believers care more about how God and when God and why God did what he did than believe that He just does it and except it for what it is.Look! I would love to have all the scientific anwsers to convince. But I don’t. I was born in a small town raised in a small school where prayer was allowed. Accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. And never once in 56 years have I heard such unexplainable unprovable talk. You cannot out smart God. I have seem some in this conversation appear to put themselves on the same level as God. Maybe your not but it sure gives the impression. This seams to be an endless chatter.
Wahyu I believe the issue is in witnessing. How do you address dinosaurs etc
Ricky Grimsley Its possible that dinosaurs and people lived together until the flood. Messing with animal DNA as well and humans was being done as well. The bible does say that “all the earth had corrupted its way”?  Other non-canonical books tell the story that way?
Pete Fiske Yes dinosaurs were created on Day 6 of Creation Week,  along side with man. All things were created during Creation Week in Genesis 1, and extraneous philosophical mumbo-jumbo about a supposed ‘gap’ in Genesis 1 is designed to serve and placate the scriptural and scientific lack of knowledge (ignorance) of Gappists who won’t bother studying scripture and then allowing the literal context of the text form their worldview and theology. Why is it so hard to accept a 6,000 – 7,000 year old earth?  Because like that false prophet Dake,  he was scared to be viewed as “unscientific” for not accepting the false idea of billions of years!  The Bible doesn’t need or teach billions of supposed years,  and neither does science,  properly understood.
Wahyu If you (with your great knowledge of science) can prove that the earth isn’t millions arent billions year old and dinosaurs are only 6000 years old then why don’t you? You could revolutionize the world and lend huge credibility to scripture.
Pete Fiske John, thanks for proving my point,  that Gappists cling to the fallible ideas of fallen men (secularist evolutionism-believing scientists who like in the 19th century,  believed the earth to be millions at first,  now 4.56 billion supposed years old) instead of using the literal truth of God’s Word in Genesis 1-11,  which clearly teaches no gap, therefore no millions of supposed years of evolutionary based ‘deep time. ‘Just FYI,  I once was an agnostic evolutionist and godless drunk who initially rejected Christianity as  a weak minded religion for scientifically illiterate bumpkins when I heard the “gap theory” being taught,  when I was 14, by  a teacher using the Dake Annotated Bible.  It destroyed what little faith I had because I immediately recognized that this “gap” teaching was a last stitch attempt to make Genesis fit with millions of years (evolutionary) beliefs.  It was a slippery slope for me after that!  If the Genesis account of Creation had to changed due to ‘science’, then why should I believe in the Gospels (on which a literal Genesis is built)?As far as evidence for dinosaurs and humans coexisting,  first off, what objective evidence from science can you in detail quote me that shows they didn’t coexist?  Just FYI,  I know all about radiometric dating techniques,  of which radiocarbon dating is but one. And I know about Index Fossiling as well.
Wahyu Youre the one saying its wrong. Im just saying with that level of arrogance you should be able to prove what youre saying. The way you speak down to anyone that disagrees with you reminds me of someone else. ….
Pete Fiske Why do people always attack when corrected (like I’ve been doing to expunge this unbiblical gobbledygook from Christian thought)? My goal is to see truth be taught,  not personal and selfish pride that I’m so much smarter,  which it seems that I am, due to the time spent studying God’s Word and scientific evidence.  The lack of humility in admitting your erroneous belief in a non-existent ‘gap’ actually shows a level of arrogance that God hates.
Wahyu So can you prove dinosaurs are only 6000 years old or not? Or are you going to just keep demeaning others over and overcontinually saying how dumb everyone is for believing different than you?
Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley were there dinosaurs on the Ark?The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs “ruled the Earth” for 140 million years, died out 65 million years ago, and therefore weren’t around when Noah and company set sail on the Ark around 4,300 years ago.However, the Bible gives a completely different view of Earth (and therefore, dinosaur) history. As God’s written Word to us, we can trust it to tell the truth about the past. (For more information about the reliability of Scripture, see Get Answers: Bible.)Although the Bible does not tell us exactly how long ago it was that God made the world and its creatures, we can make a good estimate of the age of the universe by carefully studying the whole counsel of Scripture:1. God made everything in six days, and rested on the seventh. (By the way, this is the basis for our seven day week—Exodus 20:8–11). Leading Hebrew scholars indicate that, based on the grammatical structure of Genesis 1, these “days” were of normal length, and did not represent long periods of time (see Get Answers: Genesis).2. We are told God created the first man and woman—Adam and Eve—on Day 6, along with the land animals (which would have included dinosaurs).3. The Bible records the genealogies from Adam to Christ. From the ages given in these lists (and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth around 2,000 years ago), we can conclude that the universe is only a few thousand years old (perhaps just 6,000), and not millions of years old (see also Did Jesus Say He Created in Six Literal Days?). Thus, dinosaurs lived within the past few thousand years.  https://answersingenesis.org/…/were-dinosaurs-on-noahs…/
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley Romans5:12…”Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”
Wahyu Still waiting on the proof. All youve done is state what you believe and why
Ricky Grimsley Are you really saying that that scripture means adam was the first sinner?
Pete Fiske The Bible itself teaches an earth that is thousands not billions of years old. Radiometric dating techniques are based on faulty premises,  including and perhaps most prolifically that rock specimen dated are from what’s called a thermodynamically closed or isolated system.  Nothing in nature fits that definition so leaching occurs which corrupts dates arrived at.You probably have no clue as to what I’m talking about,  but both science and scripture refutes the idea of billions of supposed years. In any case, you should be taking your lead crom God’s Word,  not unbiblical and false ideas invented by fallible men (like the mythical gap) who want to make Scripture fit their fallible ideas.
Pete Fiske Lucifer was the first-ever sinner,  and then he corrupted 1/3 of all the angels,  and Adam and Eve.  In what order isn’t given.  One thing is for sure,  it was after Creation Week and before the events of Genesis 3.
Wahyu So what scientific evidence do you have that dinosaurs are 6000 or less years old
Ricky Grimsley So how did satan sin it certainly sounds like people were his downfall. What people did he use for all his sins if adam was the first sinner. Ezekiel 28:16 KJVS[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Pete Fiske Ricky, the KJV uses archaic English and is therefore not the best source of Biblical liturgy that you can use. I prefer the NKJV & when we then read through Ezekiel 28:13-16 we see nothing as simplistic error you made in your attempt at exegesis.  Again, you and other slavish Dake disciples, who for whatever reason have chosen to rewrite Scripture,  whether due to your lack of Biblical understanding or deliberate intent to corrupt the context of Ezekiel 28,  are rewriting the Bible,  making it say stuff it isn’t saying. Look dude,  Lucifer was a good angel in Eden, the Garden of God,  after Creation Week.  Hence,  no pre-Adamite world or Lucifer’s flood fairytale.
Wahyu Haha yeah Ricky Grimsley geesh your feeble attempts at exegesis. How pathetic
Pete Fiske Exactly!
Ricky Grimsley It is what it is
Wahyu Pete Fiske you’re not a pastor are you
Ricky L Bagwell Pete Fiske  I know I said that I would not debate the subject Y.E are O.E. But am going a different direction. Pete if I may ask you a Question and ask if you agree.rd Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;   1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.   2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;   3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.   4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.   5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Pete Fiske Brother,  you nailed it on the head. We’re seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy as we speak . Look at all these Brethren who don’t hold to sound doctrine from God’s Word,  and believe in the mythical gap!  Look how illogical their poor arguments are, yet look how vociferously they cling to these false doctrines.  Its amazing!  Its also sad.
Ricky L Bagwell Thanks Pete
Ricky L Bagwell I know that when Job was not understanding what he had done and seemed he didn’t get support from his friends and family. And when God had enough He said where were you Job. None of us where there. And I just don’t understand millions of years. I can’t tell that you are a quite a bit smarter than I am in that area and because I haven’t been to collage and have a degree I find it hard to compete with such knowledge. But I do have some wisdom. I am for what the world cause the new earth. But also to me 6000 years seems to be old. So would it be ok to say a 6000 year old earth with a new heaven and earth coming? And please  I ask this humbly and not with any sarcasm
Ricky Grimsley Lol i dont build my life around young earth or old earth but i can have discussions with learned people and not be laughed at. If you feel that i have to believe in a young earth to go to heaven then you are entitled to your opinion but i think it is ridiculous. The gospel is about jesus born of a virgin, living sinless, dying and resurrecting to set us free from sin, death and the law and to give us healing from sickness, and returning again to receive us unto himself not some petty disagreement where two sides look at the same scriptures in different ways.
Mary Ellen Nissley Ezekiel 28:13 should settle the matter.
Pete Fiske You would think,  right?
Ricky Grimsley Ezekiel 28 convinces me of the gap theory. Look at lucifers sins. They involve people.
Pete Fiske NOT the sin for which he (Lucifer turned Satan) was initially cast out of Heaven.  Even if your premise were accurate,  that doesn’t involve pre-Adamite people since Ezekiel 28 faithfully recorded in Verse 13 that he (Lucifer) was still good in Eden before he fell. Eden wasn’t created until Creation Week (Genesis 1 and 2). You can’t make theology up as you go Ricky just to preserve the false doctrine known as the ‘gap’ theory.
Mary Ellen Nissley Verse 13 says Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, before he sinned.
Ricky Grimsley No it doesn’t. It just says he was in the garden and also he was also perfect before iniquity was found in him. Two separate statements. Not a sequence.
Pete Fiske And when was Eden created Ricky? During the Creation Week of Genesis 1,  which is an overview (semi-detailed summary) of all the high points of what happened in terms of creative events in that first six day calendar week, approximately 7,000 yrs ago.Apparently God saved the knowledge of the origin of Satan to later revealed truth via his prophets Ezekiel (chapter 28 for the general description and place where Lucifer was, which was Eden) to the more detailed account of exactly how Satan conducted himself and his first official acts of rebellion against our Creator,  which was to corrupt 1/3 of the angels and to lead them in a failed rebellion against God’s authority.  (Isaiah 14).Again, no heretical ‘gap’ in which the Oz-like mythical pre-Adamite world supposedly existed is either directly mentioned or even vaguely inferred.
Ricky Grimsley It just say satan was there. We all know that. It doesnt satan was ever good while he was there. In fact God told adam “dress and to keep the garden”.  Obviously satan.
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley apparently you haven’t read the text of Ezekiel 28, or you’re just fibbing (is lying too strong of a word?) Let me help you, I’ll post Ezekiel 28:13-15, and then,  this time, you read it!”You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.14 “You were the anointed cherub (good angel) who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.15 “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till the day iniquity (sin) was found in you”.Scholars agree Ezekiel is one of the those books that is considered to be sequential, that means one verse that precedes the other happened before. Hence, verse 13 happened before verse 14, and then verse 14 before verse 15, So, as Ezekiel 28:13-15 reveals, Lucifer was a good angel in Eden, the Garden of God, the same one Adam and Eve inhabited, and for a while, he was a good angel, till sin was found in him. If we read Isaiah 14:12-14 in parallel with Ezekiel 28 on this point, we see a little more detail:“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,[b] son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’The fact that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, and was good, till his own pride got the better of him, is indisputable from Scripture. Now, “how long” was he in Eden? As I’ve shown, from parallel cross-referencing of related Scriptures (Genesis 4:25, 5:2-5; Ezekiel 28:13-15, Isaiah 14:12-14) that  Adam and Eve were in Eden for at least 100 years, as Adam was 130 when Seth was born to him (Genesis 5:2) as a replacement for Abel, whom Cain murdered (Genesis 4:25). Study the Word, minus the heretical and false commentaries of the late false prophet Finis Dake, and you’ll be OK.
Mary Ellen Nissley Eze 28:13  THOU HAST BEEN IN EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee IN THE DAY THAT THOU WAST CREATED.Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ricky Grimsley Whats your point. He was in the garden. We all know this. He wasnt created there. He wasnt in perfection there. Adam wasnt created there either.
Pete Fiske Lucifer fell while in Eden (Ezekiel 28:13, 15) which means he was a good angel from the day he was created sometime during Creation Week (Genesis 1) probably on Day One or Two. You see Ricky, all things in the universe, including the angels,  were created during Creation Week.  Everything that God did, every creative act and event was carried out on each chronological calendar Day,  including the earth itself,  which was a shapeless chaotic mass made up of ionized gaseous (plasma) water. This was the state of the earth before it was a solid planet.  And during that chaotic (to us) series of creative events,  when God was creating all of the basic 108+ known atomic elements from the plasma mass made of two atoms of hydrogen and atom of oxygen (H2O), all on Day One,  God created electromagnetic energy (of which visible light is only one part [whose carrier particle is the photon]) thus forever separating light from te initial darkness. These are the events that happened on Day One,  when properly understood according to the text and in the light of scientifically correct understanding. The so-called “gap” is extraneous to the actual literal context of the text of Genesis 1,  and has been inserted in the text of Genesis 1 by scientifically illiterate teachers like Scofield, Ramm, and Dake,  and initially by Chalmers,  who all in ignorance believed they were doing the Scripture a service by inserting a supposed mechanism (a supposed ‘gap’ of millions of years) that would,  in their minds alone,  clarify Scripture on the age of the earth,  which they felt compelled (by Satan) to do, since they felt 19th century “science” (i.e. Cuvier, Lyell, Buffoon,  and Darwin) had done.”My people perish for lack of knowledge.(wisdom)~ Hosea 4:6 I call that compromise of Biblical truth with the fallible ideas of fallen men…HERESY!”Let God be true and every man a liar.”  ~ Romans 3:4
Rico Hero Pete FiskeGods literal word says the first day began with light. You are simply ignoring that the earth, water, and darkness were already in existence begore day one.
Pete Fiske OK,  on Day One God created light (electromagnetic energy), amongst His other creative acts. That’s not a reference to a supposed ‘recreation’ as Dake so ridiculously said and wrote about.  There never was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by an equally mythical ‘Lucifer’s flood’. Its nowhere in God’s Word.
Ricky Grimsley the angels werent created during creation week. They watched creation. Job 38:6-7 KJVS[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; [7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? There is no evidence that satan fell in eden. I dont see where you get it from.
Ricky Grimsley If you pastor Pete Fiske, i hope you treat your congregation better than us. To believe that you have cornered the market on doctrine and question the salvation of others who disagree is pretty cultish imo.
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Lucifer and the other angels were created during Creation Week.  Job 38 merely mentioned that they ‘watched God’ create. So, how long was Creation Week?  Six 24 days is 24 X 6 = 144 hours of creative work for God. If the angels (and it doesn’t say for sure) were created on Day One,  they would’ve had over 100 hours of viewing and rejoicing time!  😉
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley we have to believe in only ONE true way God created,  there can’t be more than ‘ONE’ correct way He created.  So yes, Genesis 1, which exclusively and without doubt teaches a young earth,  is justifiably “cornering the market”. That means we have to eliminate false doctrines (cheap knockoffs) on true Biblical doctrine. And the cheap knockoff here is the ‘ gap’ theory.
Ricky Grimsley Sounds like straining at a gnat to me.
Pete Fiske Proclaiming truth of what Scripture teaches isn’t straining at a  gnat,  but accepting the truthful record of what, when,  and how God something,  in this case creation of the heavens and the earth. You can’t continue treating this important topic as something to laugh at or ignore
Brian Crisp Lucifer fell wat before Eden. There was existence prior to Genesis 1. God Himself has always been. Guess what is one of His characteristics Creator. He creates all the time that what He does. He wasn’t twiddling His thumbs with nothing to do or not having beings to rule over before Genesis. Genesis is our start not His.
Pete Fiske Where in Scripture or science,  or the Philosophy of Science can you point out that there was an earthy existence before Genesis 1?As far as “what God was doing before He created the universe in Genesis 1?”… that’s something we’re not told. God is self-existing,  which means He doesn’t need to have a universe,  or intelligent beings to play with. As far as “twiddling His thumbs” goes, that’s as coherent a guess as the mythical ‘gap’ you blindly adhere to.
Brian Crisp Lol OK I guess you have all the answers.
Pete Fiske How in the Lords name can you say that Lucifer fell “before” Eden when  the Holy Spirit told us through revelation to Ezekiel,  in Ezekiel 28:13, that Satan was still good and in Eden,  the Garden of God,  BEFORE he fell into sin in verse 15?
Brian Crisp He was in Eden we all know that.
Pete Fiske No (eyebrows raised) God and His infallible Word has all the answers!  I have just shown myself as “workman approved,  diligently studying the Scriptures”, not false doctrines taught in human written commentaries,  like Dake’s  false commentaries, and then continue to cling to these false doctrines, and in your case,  teaching them to others.  That’s serious business,  as God warns not to mislead his people!
Brian Crisp You may believe your right but that’s OK. You are entitled to your opinion that’s what you have not biblical evidence of age if earth etc.
Brian Crisp I study and been a student if the Word for a long time. I been in church 80% of my life so I am no rookie and never taught false doctrine.
Pete Fiske Being a veteran of church attendance doesn’t make you correct 100 % of the time.   God never lies (Romans 3:4) and as I’ve shown objectively (that means factually whether anyone accepts the facts or not) from both Scripture and Science,  there is no “gap”, which means that this “gap” you so slavishly cling to (for what reason is beyond me) is false doctrine,  which means, in confirmed contradiction to what you just claimed,  YES YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO FALSE DOCTRINE!  What is worse, without sufficient study and wisdom,  you’ve blindly swallowed it. “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”  –Hosea 4:6
Pete Fiske DO THE MATH (from Day One of Creation Week to the Flood is 1,656 years). Now, according to the genealogical information in both Genesis 10 (The Table of Nations) and Genesis 11, basically from Noah’s son Shem to Abraham, and count the years. Then factor in the genealogical information from both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, and calculating that a biblical generation is approximately20 years,  you can calculate an approximate age of the earth,  which doesn’t add up to millions of years,  and which adds up to a date roughly 6000 to 7000 years of age.
Brian Crisp You are very arrogant with your philosophy which I don’t use. I use the word. Actually I got more than church attendance I have Holy Ghost anointing and like I said believe what you will but going around claiming you are right with no proof because there is none.
Pete Fiske Brian Crisp (( You are very arrogant with your philosophy))No Brian, I’m very factual, as I do my homework on an issue before pontificating on it. I feel sorry for you since facts and truth mean so little to you, coming from someone who has the responsibility of teaching God’s Word, that is, the factual truths contained therein, you seem to have so little respect for that truth, that’s appalling! Mushy and mindless ‘feelings’ just won’t get it, I’m afraid, and not showing yourself to be the diligent student of God’s Word:”Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”~ 2 Timothy 2:15(not Dake’s word, let me emphasize that point!) is part of why we Christians are losing our youth (millennials) [https://answersingenesis.org/christi…/church/already-gone/] to evolutionists and other anti-Christian secular leftists (falsely calling themselves ‘progressives’). Its all because we’re sending Christian kids, or at least, churched kids from churched backgrounds into these secularist dens of iniquity, like lambs to the slaughter, into secularist-dominated colleges, philosophically and theologically unprepared to deal with the onslaught of godless left-wing philosophies, including evolution. ((I have Holy Ghost anointing and like I said believe what you will but going around claiming you are right with no proof))ALL I’ve been giving is proof, and evidence, from both Scripture, and a bit from science, all of which completely refute, in fact, expose the mythical *gap* as not only completely ridiculous, but outright dangerous! Why? Because it shows spiritual truth seekers, as I once was, who may be steeped in evolutionary thinking, as I was, that the Bible needs to be ‘updated’ on the age of the earth, as if God didn’t know what He was talking about when He gave us either directly proclaimed doctrines about important things, such as marriage being the union of man and woman, preferably, for life (Genesis 2:22-24), and not the sexual union of two people of the same gender, which He clearly, and without vagueness, refers to as an abomination (Leviticus 18:22), and unnatural (Romans 1:26-28).(( because there is none))I think you’ve been outclassed and overwhelmed by the level of Biblical scholarship that I have demonstrated, which totally demolishes every so-called Biblical reference or supposed inference to a supposed *gap*. Look dude, I’m not the sharpest nail in the tool pouch, nor am I infallible, but the level of scholarship God has permitted me to show you (and others) is for a purpose, to enlighten you as to the false doctrines taught within the Body of Christ, especially in this case, where it concerns the Creation and age of the earth, which is less than 10K years, DEAL WITH IT, AND REPENT OF YOUR STUBBORNNESS AND DESIRE TO REMAIN IN IGNORANCE!
Pete Fiske Brian Crisp DO THE MATH (from Day One of Creation Week to the Flood is 1,656 years). Now, according to the genealogical information in both Genesis 10 (The Table of Nations) and Genesis 11, basically from Noah’s son Shem to Abraham, and count the years. Then factor in the genealogical information from both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, and calculating that a biblical generation is approximately20 years, you can calculate an approximate age of the earth, which doesn’t add up to millions of years, and which adds up to a date roughly 6000 to 7000 years of age.
Brian Crisp To be honest I read like 5 words of your last post and quit because it’s nonsense. I have been patient and kind with you but you keep showing ignorance and arrogance.
Brian Crisp I believe what the bible says not you.
Pete Fiske If that were true Brian,  you wouldn’t believe in the supposed ‘gap’, which is not found anywhere in the 66 books of the canonical Scriptures.  You do know that there’s 66 books in the Bible, don’t you?
Brian Crisp Tour theories are not in the bible.
Pete Fiske I get everything out of the Bible.  You can read Ezekiel 28:13-15 for yourself,  if you can read,  that is. Being a Spirit-filled Christian means more than “feelings” & emotional reactions while you park your brain at the front door of the Church,  and accept Kindergarten level theology,  false doctrine taught by false prophets like Finis Jennings Dake.
Pete Fiske What about Lucifer being “in Eden,  the Garden of God” in Ezekiel 28:13 are u having a problem with?Lucifer being in Eden before sin was found in him is kinda hard on your pre-Adamite fairytale world,  isn’t it?
Brian Crisp You have hate in your heart. You can’t be if God with hate in your heart. I bet you think your smart behind your keyboard and not having to be face to face with anyone. I mean you acting this way in church if you go will make noone want to be in your presence. You need to repent of all this as it is wrong.
Pete Fiske Still waiting for you to show us ‘where’ in Ezekiel 28 it shows that Lucifer fell ‘before’ Genesis 1.
Pete Fiske Brian Crisp, I will meet you face-to-face,  in any venue,  including your church,  in front of your flock ( a completely hostile crowd) and still be able to prove the gap heresy wrong.
Brian Crisp You are ridiculous. I am laughing at it I mean it’s that pathetic. No you won’t because your forum is on Facebook where you get away with talking your Babel.
Pete Fiske You’re chicken Brian. You won’t debate in public because you know I would wipe the proverbial floor with you and the “gap”.
Brian Crisp Lol OK sure.
Pete Fiske If you wouldn’t be chicken Brian,  you wouldn’t be hesitant in having a public forum on this where someone (me)  would present real evidence from science and scripture demolishing the mythical gap in Genesis.
Pete Fiske ((You have hate in your heart))Not for you Brother, I love you as a Brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,  and desire to see you enlightened from this Kindergarten level theology that you seem to have embraced.  The “gap theory” is wicked and evil false doctrine implanted in the Body of Christ by Satan to lead many people astray. Its unbiblical compromise and all of this resistance on your part speaks that the Lord has not yet granted you the wisdom and humility to see that I’m right on this one. That’s not for the sake of ‘being right’ , but for your edification.
Brian Crisp You have shown nothing but hate this whole time which speaks volumes about your character.
Pete Fiske Brian I hate the false doctrine that has bewitched you (and others like Timothy Ross) and I with all deliberate intent,  wish to see this cancer removed from the Body of Christ!
Brian Crisp Your way off base
Pete Fiske No, it seems as you’ve been beguiled by a spirit of ignorance.  Anyone who has a semblance of theological knowledge can see that I’m correct on these points,  theologically speaking.  This has past the point of just ‘who’s right’? …this is a matter of Biblical Authority!  You’re not entitled to hold these erroneous views and teach them to your people!  That’s a matter of spreading false doctrines!
Brian Crisp Not at all.
Pete Fiske The facts don’t bear your denial out.
Brian Crisp You don’t have facts.
Peter Ciple I’m not so sure about this GAP Theory. I don’t believe the earth is billions of years old.
Pete Fiske So what the heck do you need a “gap”  for then? It ( the supposed gap) isn’t even inferred in Genesis,  or in any of the other 65 (minus Genesis) books of the Bible.
Peter Ciple If there is any GAP then it would be what we do not know about. And, there is a gap in our brain for not being able to use our brain 100%. But, do we really need to know this now? We can always ask Jesus when we get to Heaven. So, we must get saved, first of all.. There was no big bang. “Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could.” (Sound of music extraction). But because of evolutionists saying that the earth is billions of years old, this Gap theory was developed. But carbon dating is so inaccurate. Why do we never get the first hand results when they do it? Why do they not tell us about it? Because they tested a living mollusk and found it dead for numbers of years! So in the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. So He would have created Heaven first. Then the earth. Then everything else. PS There are layers of Heaven. He is in the one most above all the Heavens. So some things would have been going on there. The earth’s heaven would be another thing. So if earth’s heaven is the sky within the firmament then that is Genesis – IN THE BEGINNING. Wouldn’t it? Day one was Heaven and earth, light -day,  darkness – night. Yet Day two, He created the firmament and called it Heaven. So doesn’t this make you then ask, how if God called the firmament Heaven on the second day, how would there then be a GAP? But why should we worry so much about it? It is only to dispute evolution. But evolution is a big hoax and it is already disputed in itself.
Pete Fiske Peter Ciple ((But, do we really need to know this now? We can always ask Jesus when we get to Heaven.))That is a copout Peter! Let me point you to what God tells us through both of our namesake, the Apostle Peter…”But sanctify the Lord God[a] in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear”~ 1 Peter 3:15((There was no big bang. “Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could.” (Sound of music extraction). But because of evolutionists saying that the earth is billions of years old, this Gap theory was developed))That’s the jest of it, Brother. The “Gap” theory was invented in the fertile imagination of Thomas Chalmers, a Scottish theologian, in the early 19th century, in response to the so-called “scientific” movement of the day, the idea of an earth ‘millions of years old’ as told by the so-called “Scriptural Geologists”, the early Uniformitarians:  https://answersingenesis.org/…/where-did-the-idea-of…/
Peter Ciple I do not believe in evolution either.
Peter Ciple God was always there, He is always there and He is coming back.
Ricky L Bagwell gapplaynoun \ˈgap\Popularity: Bottom 50% of wordsSimple Definition of gap: a space between two people or things: a hole or space where something is missing: a missing partI believe  I understand the gap theory now! Outline of Biblical Usage:emptiness, void, waste this the def. of void I Genesis 1:2vain 4, vanity 4, confusion 3, without form 2, wilderness 2, nought 2, nothing 1, empty place 1, waste 1. This the def. of without form.Wow! As illiterate as I am on science. This defines the gap theory quite well.THERE WAS NOTHING THERE!God took nothing and made something. God is the only one that can do that.
Wahyu The fact is there are a lot the bible only alludes to or barely  speaks about.  To say someone who disagrees with you about these things is a heretic is beyond arrogant.  There is so much weer don’t know.  Even Paul said so.  He warned against pointless bickering.  None of us can prove anything either way.  One day we will know even add we are known
Pete Fiske Getting finer points of Christian doctrine correct,  so we can obey the command of 1 Peter 3:15, so we can give coherent and correct answers to objections to the Faith, and lead others to Christ,  instead of away from Him, as the mythical “gap” does,  is essential to saving souls and  salvation of the spiritually confused,  as I was when I was 14.  Hence this is NOT pointless bickering.
Pete Fiske The continued and therefore perpetual spreading of false doctrines like the non-existent gap,  is the deliberate spreading of lies in the name of Scripture, and is indeed heresy.
Ricky L Bagwell My point exactly John, and I am sorry if I sounded arrogant. That was not my intention. Don’t much like being called a heretic though. I apologize. It was not my intent.I agree it is pointless bickering.Deu. 29:2929 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.2nd Timothy 2: 14-18Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.Guys I am out God Bless you all
Rico Hero Pete FiskeI read all your posts this thread. You clearly hate the Gap theory and are calling out those teachers who teach it as “false prophets”, “which they felt compelled (by Satan) to do”. (your words in quotes).Yet, the hatred that you have for the Gap and for these teachers cannot be justified in the word of God. Gods literal word says the first day began with light.3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.”And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day. (Gen.1:3 NLT).Each day begins with light:”And evening passed and morning came, marking the second day.” (Gen.1:6NLT)”13 And evening passed and morning came, marking the third day.” (Gen.1:13NLT)”19 And evening passed and morning came, marking the fourth day.”(Gen.1:19NLT)”23 And evening passed and morning came, marking the fifth day.”(Gen.1:23NLT)”And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.”(Gen.1:31NLT)You completely ignore the earth, water, and darkness are already in existence before the first day– which began with light.The Lord will rebuke you
Brian Crisp Amen
Pete Fiske No Bro Rico, the events described in Genesis 1:2-5 are all first-time,  out of nothing creative events where God created the initial mass of the universe, including earth.  This happened on Calendar Day One of Creation Week.  On the first day He also created “light” (electromagnetic energy,  which includes ultraviolet,  infrared,  radiowaves, x-rays,  and every electromagnetic energy wave with each corresponding wavelength, including the narrow spectrum we call ‘visible light’.)The Lord can forgive ignorance in an ordinary believer Rico, but not so easily to those that knowingly teach this kind of false doctrine (the gap heresy) to God’s people.  (2 Peter 2).
Rico Hero Pete Fiske The Aglican priest by my place is in a civil union with a man. I said to him but God said ” do not be decieved, homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.”He simply rejected this scripture as actually saying this.But Look: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECIEVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor HOMOSEXUALS,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.So why cant he see this? He said that he loves his partner and cant believe what God said here.PeteI understand your position and want for the first day to start with darkness, but it starts with light.God said, let there be light. And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day.Why are you rejecting Gods word here and making the first day to start with darkness?LOOK: 3 Then God said, “LET THERE BE LIGHT,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.”AND EVENING PASSED AND MORNING CAME, MARKING THE FIRST DAY. (Gen.1:3 NLT).Why cant you see this?
Wahyu Still waiting in Mr Fiske to prove dinosaurs are just 5 to 6000 years old
Brian Crisp You gonna be waiting a long time. He got nothing
Wahyu Lol I’m kinda seeing that
Pete Fiske Where’s the evidence that confirms an old earth billions of old?  And when did the dinosaurs live , Einstein?
Pete Fiske When did the dinosaurs live Brian? How can Satan have been corrupted before Adam was created when Ezekiel 28 tells us that he was still a good angel in Eden? (Ezekiel 28:13)Its this kind of rampant ignorance of both Scripture and scientific evidence that accounts for the weakness of the Church today, why young people are leaving in droves,  and the lack of humility and snarky demeanor to defend proven false doctrines like the non-existent gap proves why Christians are losing the Culture War and why fhe Church of today’s America is sick.  Look into the mirror Brother,  IGNORANT PREACHERS LIKE U ARE THE PROBLEM!
Wahyu Lol aren’t you the one here demeaning others and touting your great scientific understanding.  So I’m asking you to show us your scientific evidence of what you are teaching.  Is a very simple request.  Surely with that about of arrogance this should be easy for you
Brian Crisp He is a troll evidently lives to spew hate as gospel like the wesboro folks.
Mary Ellen Nissley guys, guys… let’s be careful here. Whoever is the most biblical, let’s act the most charitable, okay?
Pete Fiske Me a ‘troll’? I’m just a person with an educated opinion debating an idiot who preaches false doctrine (YOU).
Brian Crisp You prove me right with every venom you spew.
Brian Crisp I have been nice and all for all this time. I told you over and over let it go but you come back running your hate behind your keyboard with your evil tactics.
Pete Fiske Mary Ellen,  thanks for being wise (seeing through the LIE of the gap theory) and for being gracious.  It’s sad that Brian and John cannot be as humble and wise as you and see this error in their thinking and repent (to turn away) from it.
Wahyu Pete Fiske you need Jesus
Brian Crisp You are not humble, wise or of God. May God have mercy on you.
Brian Crisp Yes he does.
Pete Fiske Scientific evidence?  That’s all I’ve been doing!  Didn’t you read when I mentioned the fallibility of radiometric dating techniques?  You don’t have the cognitive ability to understand anything but a brief mention of this. How in-depth would you like to get?
Pete Fiske If u had Jesus Christ, who is Lord,  you wouldn’t be believing false doctrines like the non-existent gap theory.
Wahyu All you’ve done is say how normal widely accepted scientific means are false.  So I’d just like to see your great knowledge of science show me a6000 year old earth.  Also you’re vitriolic arrogance and condescending,  none of which are fruit of the spirit.  Just saying
Ricky Grimsley I must admit i laugh at people that bring the salvation of others into question over a discussion where the answer isnt implicitly stated in the bible. Pretty juvenile. Why bother being in a discussion group.
Wahyu Exactly
Pete Fiske John, I have a BSc in engineering from an accredited university.  I also have a MSc in Physics Education from another accredited university.  I have taught physics,  chemistry,  engineering mechanics,  calculus,  and physical science. I used to be a hardcore agnostic evolutionist who believed in millions of supposed years,  and I could explain why I believed in that from the “accepted” (by the secularist scientific establishment) science,  so-called.  It was the actual evidence itself that actually began to give me doubt about my former faith in evolution and billions of supposed years. After I got saved,  it wasn’t long before the Holy Spirit,  who is my teacher (Luke 16, Isaiah 11:2)  began to show me from Scripture the case for an earth only thousands,  not 4.6 billion supposed years old.  It just so happens the objective evidence from science backs up God’s Word,  which is my ultimate Authority.   (Romans 3:4)
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley, I don’t know if you’re saved, only you and God can answer that question.  Chances are that if someone perpetually refuses all rebuke, after having been shown dozens of times that they’re wrong (as you are about Dake and his damnable false doctrines,  including the gap theory) it makes one wonder if you’ve really been saved.
Ricky Grimsley Im finding it hard to be nice with your ridiculous petty assumptions. What makes our disagreement here “damnable” as you say.
Wahyu Umm all haven’t answered my question.  Is someone as smart as you dodging a question?
Ricky Grimsley
Wahyu Haha He after all has lots of degrees. Because God chooses the smart people to confound the dumb
Ricky Grimsley Lol good one
Ricky Grimsley Im probably also doomed for hell because of my pre-wrath rapture view and open theism too. Lol.
Wahyu Oh yeah you are a heretic for sure
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley singing the praises of the Dake Cult…”Let DAKE be TRUE, and everyone else a LIAR!”  ~Dake Annotated Bible, Rule 1
Pete Fiske John, I have indeed answered the question, its you who are avoiding the obvious, and trying to deflect by throwing a vacuous question back at me. Also, you’re guilty of this…”For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions”  ~ 2 Timothy 4:3
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley ((Im finding it hard to be nice with your ridiculous petty assumptions)All that’s ridiculous here is your petty responses, as you’ve taken what was a kinda substantive theological debate, and turned it into an insult fest, in which you and I will be at war with ever more obnoxious memes, unless you can pull your head out of the proverbial sand, and answer my challenges to the Satanic false doctrine of the supposed *gap* that you have yet to show, from Scripture first, then science, how it is/was feasible. I await a coherent and somewhat substantive response on your part.
Pete Fiske John Conger ((Im probably also doomed for hell))For all anyone knows, you might be. Its possible to attend church all of your life, and still be unsaved, and never having accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. http://www.precious-testimonies.com/…/AreYouReallySaved…((because of my pre-wrath rapture view))The pre-Tribulation view of the Last Days is Biblically sound.http://christinprophecy.org/ ((and open theism too))Open theism is just another false doctrine Satan has floated into theologically naive “Christians”, likely the same sheeple  he floated the “Gap” heresy to. https://carm.org/dialogue-open-theist((Lol))There’s nothing funny about being  as ignorant of what Scripture, and science for that matter, says about reality.
Pete Fiske John Conger mocking that which you don’t understand, or worse, even try to understand, like why the Bible doesn’t teach a “gap”of millions of supposed years, just to accommodate evolutionary thinking, is another example of the pitiful state of American Christianity’s Biblical wisdom, or the lack thereof.
Wahyu Pete Fiske where did you show the proof that dinosaurs are only 5 to 6 thousand years old? please repost
Pete Fiske John Conger when did God make man and land animals? Let me help you.24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.Genesis 1:24-31Once you’ve clarified in your mind ‘when’ God created all land organisms, including man, then we’ll talk about how neither radiometric dating, nor the fossil record proves that there’s a supposed 60 million year GAP between dinosaurs, and when our supposed ape ancestors decided to evolve from the rest of the ape family.
Wahyu lol thats your proof? haha ok. thanks mustve missed all those scriptures. thought you were telling us all how smart you are at science? i remember it  well. you wee telling us how we didnt know what we were talking about and that you knew how science was wrong. i asked you for your scientific evidence of dinosaurs living 6000 years ago and so far i have seen none. just you espousing your great knowledge and demeaning others. if you cant show us then im just going to take my wise rebuke from you and go to my room and think about what ive done
Ricky Grimsley Lol
Pete Fiske To you bluntly telling the objective truth is “hateful” because I am deliberately popping your blissful ignorance bubble.
Wahyu Haha control issues much? Let it go
Ricky Grimsley Some people have to be right no matter what. Jesus said “John 13:35 KJVS[35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” He did not say “by your belief on the age of the earth.”
Pete Fiske John Conger, the reason you’re not dealing with the issue is because none of you “baby” Christians can deal with the meat of the Word, which shows no ‘gap’ of millions of years.  You can’t get your nose out of the emotional attachments you have to the #DakeCult.
Wahyu Lol what Ricky said above
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley you’re missing the point all together! Its out of love that I hammer this theological truth (of a young earth less than 10K years old) to you!  To be able to prove yourself as ‘workman approved rightly divided the word’. That can’t be done unless you read the Word of God in its proper literal context,  which in Genesis doesn’t include a make-believe ‘gap’.
Ricky Grimsley According to you
Ricky Grimsley Probably i was never saved according to you. I have never believed the world was 6000 years old.
Ricky Grimsley Good luck with that.
Timothy Ross I am not YEC for many reasons. It can not be shown emphatically number one.
Pete Fiske Maybe you’d like to elaborate on that bit of fact-free mere assertion?
Pete Fiske
Wahyu You are mischaracterizing geologists and lumping them as evolutionists. I have a buddy i fly with who is a devout christian and geologist. Probably even knows more than the great Pete Fiske. To say geologists who assert the age of the earth to be older than 6000 are evolutionists is dishonest and you should stop that crapm be honest or log off
Pete Fiske I had to take two geophysics classes for my MSc, lots of geology majors in them. I dare say that most of them were evolutionists who believed in millions of supposed years.  The term for an evolutionary geologist, and I’ll give you the benefit of the freakin doubt this time,  is Uniformitarian geologist, that is one who believes in billions of supposed years of deep-time,  and that life evolved from non-living organic molecules, then from lower species.  Some of those guys believe in God,  that ‘God’ and not natural selection and deleterious mutations created life, slowly over millions of alleged years.  They would be called “Theistic Evolutionists” (TE). Ya see, one doesn’t have to be a biologist to be an evolutionist.  Oh yes,  lest we forget,  there are some PhD and MSc level geologists who are young earth creation scientists. (Dr Andrew Snelling, Dr Don Patton,  Dr David Catchapoole, Dr Tas Walker, Dr Steve Austin, etcetera. )((I have a buddy who is a devout Christian and a geology who knows more…))John,  you’re trying to be a “prick”, and doing a decent job at it. I never said I was a geologist,  just took some geophysics classes for my MSc in physics education.  But I do know about how evolutionist geologists (Uniformitarians) claim to determine old age of millions and billions of supposed years.  I’ve already mentioned that in a previous post. If you had a longer  attention span, you might have read, even remembered what I said.  Look up ‘radiometric dating techniques’ (there’s approximately 20 different methods) and then have the intellectual fortitude to look up the RATE Project at www.icr.org/rate .  Then just remember that the Bible is our final philosophical and theological authority,  not evolutionary geologists.  And one more thing, remember that we don’t have to make Scripture fit the fallible ideas of fallen men (millions of supposed years), hence,  we don’t need to have a make-believe “gap”.
Wahyu As much as you want the bible to say 6000 it just doesnt. I pointed out your flaw, asked you for scientific evidence to back up your arrogance and was being facetious in pointing out you condescending tone. Guess the view up there is way too high to see us lowly ignorant ones
Pete Fiske John,  I’m not trying to be condescending to you,  you’re doing it all by yourself!  I’m really trying to have a serious discussion with you, but its hard when only one person (in this case me) even remotely understands what the heck we’re talking about.
Wahyu Smh
Pete Fiske :-D. (Y)
Pete Fiske What’s wrong John? Is typing www.icr.org/rate to much of a task?
Wahyu Wow.  I question if you really are this hung up on yourself or if your ego is this fragile that you feel the need to talk down to others in order to make yourself feel better.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske The Bible if read in proper context does not teach as a science book number one as the modern Young Earth folks teach.And further Day 1 through 3 are not creation of the universe if taken literally. Day 4 is the start of what is the known creation in the Milky way? Sun, Moon, Stars. Genesis chapters 1-12 are to be read as a Covenant between God and the covenant Man Adam. Concerning the Gap Teaching it has some theological merit before Finis Dake  historically LOL… All Dispensational Teachers usually held such thought from its inception. And since the Pentecostal movement was apart of the Dispensational thought more then Covenant Theology that is why the Gap gained popular reviews.And note Darwinian Evolution is not the only teaching among Evolution teaching note in the times of the 1700’s or even the 1800’s.And let’s talk TheologyAugustine of HippoIn line with earlier Greek thought, the 4th-century bishop and theologian, Augustine of Hippo, wrote that the creation story in the Book of Genesis should not be read too literally. In his book De Genesi ad litteram (On the Literal Meaning of Genesis), he stated that in some cases new creatures may have come about through the “decomposition” of earlier forms of life.[19] For Augustine, “plant, fowl and animal life are not perfect … but created in a state of potentiality,” unlike what he considered the theologically perfect forms of angels, the firmament and the human soul.[20] Augustine’s idea ‘that forms of life had been transformed “slowly over time”‘ prompted Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Santa Croce University in Rome, to claim that Augustine had suggested a form of evolutionJump up ^ St. Augustine 1982, pp. 89–9020.Jump up ^ Gill 2005, p. 251
Pete Fiske Of course the heretical “gap” had some traction before Dake and Scofield,  as Chalmers dreamed it up, with Satan’s help, after he read the writings of the late 18th and early 19th century amateur geologists,  the early uniformitarians,  Charles Lyell,  and company. From around 1814, the so-called “gap theory” was introduced  to Christian theology for the first time,  as a compromise to the ‘science’ of the day (a.k.a. Lyell,  Buffoon, Cuvier,  etc.)As far as the days of the Creation Week in Genesis 1:1-31, they are all literal 24 hour days packed with creative events in which God created the Heavens and the earth.
Ricky Grimsley Again why is it satanic that God did something before 6000’years ago. Everlasting to everlasting sounds longer than 6000 years ago b
Pete Fiske Why do you keep falling back to 6,000 years?  That’s a strawman fallacy ( look that up so you won’t be thinking ‘scarecrow’) as I’ve never said the Bible dogmatically states the earth is just 6,000 years old on the dot. So, if I can repeat what I said,  for the sake of a substantive conversation,  I said Scripture teaches earth is approximately 6,000 – 7,000 years old.  Definitely less than 10K years old.  The only reason someone would find that concept “strange” is if they’ve been psychologically conditioned to believe that earth has to be “billions of supposed years old.” I was so conditioned by *science* when I was but a sensitive lad of 14. So are many high-on emotions,  but low on brain-power ‘Christians’, most of whom are easy prey, like the sheeple they show themselves to be,  for evolutionist snake-oil salesmen speaking ‘authoritatively’ that the earth has to be billions of supposed years old.  These emotionally-driven and cranially-lacking ‘Christians’ then scurry to whatever non-biblical sources they can find that will tell them not to worry,  because there’s a ‘gap’ of millions of supposed years in the Bible and that’s ‘all they need to know’. Just *trust* some false prophet like ‘Brother Dake’, and ‘don’t you dare question his Kindergarten level theology’ or you’ll lose your salvation!
Ricky Grimsley Lol if condescension was a sport you would be in the major leagues no doubt.
Pete Fiske Ricky, what part of “there’s no gap in the Bible” are your neurons having an issue processing?  This ain’t rocket science theology,  of course,  this isn’t Kindergarten level theology (Dake style) either!
Ricky Grimsley Dont forget to be christlike b
Pete Fiske Don’t forget to throw your Dake Bible away! (Y)
Ricky Grimsley Lol its not like i dake’s commentary as gospel. Its just a resource.
Pete Fiske A resource is something valuable and positive,  in a Biblical sense,  something the Believer can draw truth from. Dake’s theological commentaries are peppered with false doctrines (beginning with the so-called ‘gap’ – heresy #1 in his long playlist of heresies).
Ricky Grimsley When you get to heaven Dake will put his arms around and say “im glad you made it pete but I told so about the gap theory. Jesus will explain it to you here in a minute.”
Timothy Ross Yec has no support…. Archeology does not support it the Universe is not young which is a farce at least from leading scientist.The Bible is not a science book either.And I find this to be a secondary issue.
Pete Fiske Everything that you just listed are cop-out bullet points designed to divert attention from the real issues in this debate.  First,  as a science educator,  I can tell you that that while the Bible isn’t a science book (science books are revised every 3-5 years) it does indeed touch on scientific topics,  including how God created.  Secondly, archaeology doesn’t disprove the truthful Biblical doctrine of YEC, it actually helps it. So I challenge you to backup that otherwise fact-free statement with an objective citation. And lastly,  the age of the universe isn’t a problem for an earth that’s thousands of years old.  It all depends on which clock we’re looking at since based on Einsteinian Mechanics,  time is relative to gravity and velocity. Please do your homework before commenting as this comment lacks coherence.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske Einstein would never believe in a Young Universe or Earth lol…
Pete Fiske Einstein wasn’t a Christian,  nor was he a religious in any sense of the word (he was born a Jew in Ulm, Germany,  but rejected his Judaism at an early age). You act as if Einstein is a “final authority” on the age of the earth,  yet he never dealt with theological issues like this at all. Einstein was a final authority in theoretical physics,  of which we owe him a lot in terms of our understanding of how relativistic mechanics works. The only philosophical reference he made to the universe was that he introduced a mathematical “fudge factor” that Einstein introduced into his electrostatic theory in order to keep the universe from “expanding”,which would’ve proven a finite universe that had a Creation event.
Bibliata Net Good questions Ricky Grimsley and Timothy Ross Discourages are just one small proof against YEC and for Gap theory. It just makes good biblical sense
Timothy Ross Maybe for you. But if one is going to really be serious about this matter they will not teach the lies that Ken Ham and Kent Hovind talk about Dino’s walking with man lol. The Bible does not say this nor does it talk about the issue either way.It is a mystery and not clearly spoken in the Bible. I hold a middle ground view that Dino’s existed pre Adam and after Adam dragons existed in the Bible  54 times mentioned and other creatures related to what we call Dino’s today. I believe the earth age is not known and really does not matter.But find no real evidence for the YEC that teaches less then 10,000 years. My Catholic Bible’s show the earth has to be at least 360,000 years old based on Artifacts that are carbon dated.They have tablets in Samaria from that time.
Bibliata Net YEC trusts in the Flintstones theology John Conger
Timothy Ross Библията Тв lol.
Bibliata Net Sure – why not? Toward theology of the purple dinosaur
Wahyu Ah you cant use carbon dating!  Havent you been listening to the great one?
Bibliata Net I’m watching purple dinosaur on TV – must be true!
Pete Fiske There isn’t any “gap” in Scripture.  Dake was a false prophet.
Ricky Grimsley Lol give it a rest. What did he ever prophesy to be a false prophet. Lets just agree to disagree and leave all the name calling to the children.
Wahyu Gees Louise
Wahyu I never read where the gap theory was an abomination how ever pride is prov. 6 …
Ricky Grimsley Lol
Pete Fiske LOL! 360,000 year old archaeology?  That’s ridiculous at face value! ‘Catholic’ Bible as an authoritative source for Evangelical Pentecostals?  So the Vatican’s heretical theological paradigms govern your opinion and guide you in “truth”, instead of GOD’S Words in Genesis 1-11,  which make absolutely no mention of any supposed “360,000 year old archaeological artifacts.” Speaking of which, what in God’s 7,000 year old Creation are you referring to anyways?  Be specific!  Give citations and a logical and coherent paragraph detailing your assertion,  not just a mere assertion couched in flowering verbiage designed to impress the rest of the Biblically naive here you falsely believe in the mythical “gap”((the earth has to be at least 360,000 years old based on artifacts that are carbon dated))Oh my Lord, where to begin here?!! Um, Timothy, there’s not a DARN thing, human artifacts or fossils that are carbon dated (via Carbon 14 dating) that would possibility give a date even remotely close to 360,000 years!  Carbon 14 (C14) dating is based on the measured Half-Life of the C14 molecule (an atom consisting of 14 Carbon atoms). The Half-Life is a measure of deterioration of 1/2 the parent element (C14) deteriorating into the daughter element (Carbon 12 – C12) a measured time span of 5,750 years. Even if you ask an evolutionist who works with C14  (isochron or radiometric) dating (there’s approximately 20 more techniques used based on a similar concept), they would tell you,  as I will, from the very procedure itself,  that there can only be 10 Half-Lives when using C14. Why? Because after 10 Half-Lives,  each 5,750 (measured via the technique) years, a period of 57,500 measured years [5,750 X 10 = 57,500] ALL of measurable carbon in an “artifact” (better called specimen) that is carbon in the form of C14,  will be GONE! Therefore,  if an ‘artifact’ would be 360,000 years old,  there would be no tracible carbon left in it after that much supposed time. That’s assuming this particular radiometric dating technique worked flawlessly,  which it does not!((They have tablets from Samaria from that time))Its really hard for me to keep a straight face after reading that one Brother. For one,  no archaeologist that studies human history would tell you that the advent (beginning) of human civilization began with writing about 4,000 BC in what is today Iraq,  back then called the SUMERIAN,  NOT SAMARIAN civilization! By vacuous and false old-earth reckoning,  360,000 supposed years ago, by the storyline evolutionist snake-oil salesmen tell us that our supposed  partial ape (hominid) ancestors were still in caves, not building cities and civilization! Now Brother,  please don’t think I’m making fun of you, I’m giving you FACTS,  objective (which means true whether anyone believes them or not) facts. You can checkout anything I said from any objective source,  and prove me right. On the radiometric dating techniques you can go to www.icr.org/rate and look up “radiocarbon dating” and “C14”. My goal is to equip you Brother,  with real truth and facts, to fulfill God’s command in 1 Peter 3:15.
Pete Fiske My friend,  mocking the fact of a Biblical accurate young earth teaching isn’t funny in the slightest.  Doing so in defense of an even more ridiculous sounding (to the secularist academic mind) idea, like a non-existent “gap” makes you look like a fool.
Pete Fiske As you’ll see Timothy,  they give the dates for the origin of Sumerian civilization at 4,500 – 4,000 BC.www.britannica.com/place/sumer
Pete Fiske John, if  you bothered to deal with the evidence as I’ve presented,  you’d know that after a timespan of supposed 360,000 years,  there would be no measurable carbon (in the form of C14) left in the specimens (artifacts) Timothy naively mentioned. So, be careful and think before you attempt to mock, as it’ll be you who looks foolish here.
Pete Fiske God hates pride, as well as ignorance in His people.”My people perish for lack of knowledge. ”  ~ Hosea 4:6
Wahyu Knowledge puffs up
Wahyu All you’ve said over and over is that carbon dating is wrong.  Still shown no evidence of 6000 or even 10000 year old dinosaur bones
Timothy Ross John Conger Catholic Scientist are the best in the field and they scoff at the Yec folks many times.
Pete Fiske John Conger why is it that you can’t read? Apparently you’ve seen the post where I just got through explaining in detail why radiocarbon (carbon) or C14 dating doesn’t work.  I also posted a link: www.icr.org/rate …for anyone still having questions to follow. If you respect knowledge,  if you truly respect God & His Word, you would read what I’ve posted about  Ezekiel 28:13-15,  straight out of the  Word of God,  which completely destroys fhe false of the ‘gap’  & pre-Adamite world myth.  As far as carbon dating dinosaurs goes, since no residual carbon (in the form of the molecule consisting of 14 carbon atoms,  C14,  or its residual byproduct,  C12, a molecule consisting of 12 carbon atoms) remains in any rock or fossil specimen believed by evolutionists to be millions of years old (old earthers believe dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago). If Carbon dating worked flawlessly, and it doesn’t,  all of the residual carbon (either in the form of C14 or C12) would’ve evaporated in 57,500 years,  that’s just a given in nature,  an object fact if fossil and rock specimens were a truly closed system.  Decay rates for C14 into C12 shows that every 5,750 years , 50% of all C14 deteriorats into C12, that’s one half-life (5,750 years). 10 half-lives or 57,500 years,  and all carbon,  both C14 & C12 has deteriorated away. Evolution and old earth believing geo-scientists (uniformitarians) therefore don’t use carbon dating when dating dinosaur fossils,  which they believe lived 65 million – 120 million supposed years ago. They employ different radiometric dating techniques which are similar to radiocarbon dating in principle, but have different (longer) half-lives.   www.icr.org/rate
Wahyu I get the issues with carbon dating but saying its wrong doesn’t prove you’re right.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross, Catholicism is heretical,  the Vatican is no longer our spiritual authority (Sola Scriptura) as the great Reformer,  Martin Luther said.  Protestantism is the foundation for all Evangelical Christianity,  including Pentecostalism. I’m dismayed by you’re  trashing of YEC scientists and educators like Kent Hovind, who holds a doctorate in education,  and Ken Ham who holds a Masters of Science Education from Australia,  not to mention the late Dr Henry Morris,  who had a PhD in Hydrologic Engineering,  and other highly credentialed creation scientists,  most with PhDs from world-class universities.  http://creation.com/creation-scientistsAnd lest we forget,  these YEC Scientists are all Bible-believing Christians,  a few of them Charismatic Pentecostal.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske Catholicism is not heresy if they do not hold to the works righteousness ideas. Note Hough Ross is a more qualified science guy then Hovind reasons to believe. Many Christians involved with that ministry that are scientist.Luther is heretical also if we go by many people’s standards today he taught water regeneration.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross the Catholic church has long since left the Christian reservation.  Roman Catholicism follows the Pope,  not Jesus Christ.  They hold Mary on an equal footing with Jesus Christ,  and pray to ‘saints’ which the Word of God actually says is anyone who’s Born-Again. What’s more, this current pope just got through making waves in the religious community by saying that the biblical doctrine of salvation only in Christ  (John 14:6) was against Catholic teaching.  Imagine that,  we Christians have known that since the 16th century! As a Christian,  you don’t realize that?
Pete Fiske Timothy, its “Hugh” Ross (not Hough) and while he holds a PhD in astronomy (as does YEC astronomers Dr John Hartnett , Dr Jason Lisle,  Dr Danny Faulkner), his old earth belief doesn’t make him superior to YEC Creation Scientists who hold equivalent degrees.  What’s more, Ross debated Dr Danny Faulkner on the John Ankerberg Show on does astronomy and the Bible support YEC vs OEC, and lost!!
Pete Fiske John Conger, ((knowledge puffs up))So that means that Christians should lack knowledge (be ignorant) or lacking knowledge because you think its evil (being stupid)? Really ‘good’ testimonial there, Bro!  :O’My people perish for lack of knowledge.’  ~ Hosea 4:6
Wahyu You should pray for maturity.  Long way to go sir. I was referring to your arrogance. Not a flaw in the scripture
Pete Fiske I’m just over 50, I’ve studied Scripture (& science) for the better part of 25 years,  I have shown myself as ‘a workman approved,  rightly dividing the Word. ‘ (2 Timothy 3:16). I’ve grown past the ‘baby Christian’ stage, where you apparently still are, to where something as obviously ridiculous as the mythical “gap”, peddled by compromising ‘teachers’  can fool me.
Ricky Grimsley Lol
Wahyu Wow. And Pete FiskeFisk stood in the back of the room beating his breast and saying “I thank God that I’m not as that publican”
Pete Fiske John Conger you’re not even remotely good at mockery,  it just reinforces your persona as a clueless idiot.
Pete Fiske Why are you laughing Ricky Grimsley, don’t you have anything substantive that you can comeback with?
Ricky Grimsley Whats the point. We both know each others argument and we disagree. Anything more is just tempting us to ridicule each other. Perhaps lets just agree yo disagree. Perhaps you could ask David Lewayne Porter how to disagree in a more loving , productive manner. If mockery is what you want id have to take some nails out of my flesh on the cross. Neither of us need that 😉
David Lewayne Porter The point of all disagreement is(should be) enlightenment,  knowledge, and growth/understanding. It is not about being right unless the Bible calls us right/correct. The Bible does not line up with us, We must line up with The Bible.
Ricky Grimsley But we all believe that we line up with the bible. None of us hold to beliefs that are unbiblical to us. Look at the wide range of belief we have in this group even.
David Lewayne Porter True,We tend to interpret from our own experience, instead of what is actually in the printed text. (Whether we can or can’t be lost, I think Paul covers it best with these words,  “2 Corinthians 13:5-6Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.”We are to stay ready and live as though we could be lost, yet give no place to actually be lost.
Wahyu I think as reasonable mature adults we can accept that we don’t know it all . When we believe that there’s no possible way we could be wrong then we have changed from wise to fools
Troy Day False. There are plenty of gaps in Scripture: Ezekiel 22:30 I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap… Ricky Grimsley
Pete Fiske Except Troy that word “gap” in  Ezekiel 22:30 is the Hebrew word ‘perets’ which means “breach” or opening and is used in the context of ‘standing in the gap’ in prayer, in this case, for Jerusalem’s sins right before God sent Nebuchadnezzar to Jerusalem as part of His judgment to destroy the city.  Now it needs to be said that this isn’t even remotely related to the mythical “gap” of millions of supposed years that false prophets like Finis Dake inserted into Genesis 1, literally out of thin air.  Notice I said no such ‘gap’ of time is found in Genesis,  not mentioned or inferred.  And if you know anything about Biblical scholarship,  you should know the proper context of each verse, paragraph,  and chapter must be maintained so we can get a clear picture of what God is trying to tell us. By simply pulling one word out of a totally unrelated verse, and saying “SEE HERE’S A GAP!” is nothing more than presenting the reader with a red-herring.
Troy Day You are preaching to the choir, brother
Ricky Grimsley Lololol troy day drops mic
Troy Day The true problem is people dont wanna get in the gap, dont wanna know the gap, dont wanna recon the gap. But the gap’s still there. God put it there and this one time it aint Dake’s fault 🙂
Pete Fiske The true problem for you Gappists is that no matter how much y’all howl and thump your heretical Dake Bibles,  filled with all sorts of heresies,  you can’t make a ‘gap’ of millions of years appear outta thin air,  and then quote godless evolutionists as your “backup”, when their writings are in of themselves,  full of holders,  and not expect to get slammed for it.
Ricky Grimsley Ok we got it move along.
Pete Fiske No man, it isn’t that simple, just “move along” as if nothing happened or this didn’t mean anything. Someone makes a biblically inaccurate therefore misleading reference,  whether in ignorance or in malicious intent,  either way needs to be corrected.
Stan Wayne What –
Timothy Ross Библията Тв I am not scared at all…I am done with this debate. I find Pentecostals who are YEC are ignorant about the context of the Bible.
Pete Fiske You’re leaving the debate because I’ve refuted everything you’ve posted and you cannot truthfully refufe the facts I’ve posted.
Timothy Ross It is not about debate for me.I am tired of people reading the Bible as if it answers all the questions on every subject which is does not.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross, that’s a copout! Scripture tells us how we got here, why we’re here, and approximately how long we’ve been here. It is God’s infallible Word,  and what you’ve been doing is promoting secularist or other non-Biblical sources as your authority on the issues debated here, most predominantly,  the age of the earth, which both science and scripture harmonizes on being less than 10K years old.
Ricky Grimsley Pete Fiske you cant correct it because we disagree. You evidence doesnt convince me. Your claim that it’s a salvation issue has bo merit either.
Pete Fiske There’s only one set of evidence,  the disagreement arises with just how to interpret the evidence.  I come to the table with 2  science degrees,  20 + years of Biblical research,  and the experience of having been on both sides of the philosophical fence (agnostic evolutionist who believed in millions of supposed years , now saved Biblical Christian who correctly ‘divides the word of truth’ ) and correctly interprets the Creation Model,  and the so-called “young” age of the earth (as if 7,000 years old were ‘young’!)
Ricky Grimsley It doesn make you right. John piper has countless hours of bible study but he cant figure out Calvinism is wrong. Some people just cant see. The point is its ridiculous that you think i could go to hell over it.
Pete Fiske Salvation is through Christ alone (John 14:6), but godly wisdom and confidence in His Word comes by “hearing His Word”, which is how the Holy Spirit builds our faith (Romans 10:17). Having faith in His infallible Word allows a person to see that all of His Word must be accepted, even when that flies in the face of our own subjective beliefs and understanding. And if that flawed understanding includes an erroneous belief in the false doctrines of this world, of which “millions of years” is but one facet, then we must have the humility to realize that God is always right,  even when He says in His Word that earth is less than 10K years old,  in spite of what other fallible and finite humans (whether they be in secularist academia or waving a Dake Bible around,  preaching false doctrine) might say or believe. “Let God be true and every man a liar.”   ~ Romans 3:4
Ricky Grimsley We all have flawed understanding. Again i have the answers i need. Its not like God said “behold 6137 years ago i created the earth. You can say how many science degrees you have but you dont agree with mainstream science but where does that leave you. We should agree to disagree. You havent provided any new evidence that i havent heard before as i have not to you. We just disagree.
Pete Fiske Ricky Grimsley, you feel comfortable iin your lack of knowledge (ignorance) don’t you?  You shed new light on the term “ignorance is bliss”. But God hasn’t called us to perpetual naivete,  but to wisdom (Proverbs 4:7) and warned us against being the ignorant sheeple the Body of Christ largely is today (Hosea 4:6 – perhaps the major reason we’re losing the Culture War).You said that I disagree with “mainstream science”, which once more shows that:1. You don’t know what you’re talking about;2. In your ignorance you’re leaning on the fallible ideas of fallen men (millions of supposed years belief) & not the authority of the Word of God (which teaches an earth that is thousands not billions of years old. )This “mainstream science” I’m disagreeing with isn’t science,  but scientism (metaphysical naturalism) which is the purely philosophical interpretation, that’s an opinion in case you didn’t know, by secularist evolutionism-believing scientists who today dominate academia (university science and philosophy and other departments). I work and have worked in such  environments and can testify that even though there’s Biblical Christians such as myself working in the midst of this modern-day “lions den”, we don’t control the departments.  Also we don’t (anymore) control the state and national curriculum development boards, nor the textbook publishing companies that poison the minnds and hearts of the largely unprepared young people we send, as lambs to the slaughter,  into these dens of secularist iniquity,  to have their Faith destroyed by activist evolutionist snake-oil salesmen professors who indoctrinate the kids into believing this pseudoscientific poison of ‘deep time’ (millions of supposed years.) It’s not “mainstream scientific evidence”, which actually teaches the millions of years paradigm.  It’s the prevailing (and perverse) secularist philosophical paradigm (evolution and millions of supposed years) that dominates their thinking,  that contradicts with God’s Word,  which teaches an earth that is thousands not billions of years old.
Bibliata Net Thomas Newberry Reference Bible of 1890 introduced the gap theory. Not Dake or Scofield. You are way off on this one http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/thomas-newberry…/ This debunks the hypothesis that DAKE or SCOFIELD were the first ones to propose or popularize the GAP THEORY in English. The Newberry Study Bible was out of print for a long time, but just recently was put back to print and could be freely purchased. There’s also a free PDF copy of the first print available online.
Timothy Ross This is from a Charismatic Baptist.Pete Fiske are you guilty?Up until recently I had remained neutral in my position of a Young Earth verses an Old Earth view. Since it’s not a fundamental Biblical doctrine pertaining to salvation, I didn’t take sides in the issue; however, I can no longer remain neutral. I’m generally slow to figure things out, and it took me awhile to see the truth, but I clearly see it now. After reading this article I am confident that you will too. Basically, proponents of an Old Earth view believe that the earth was created by God—did not evolve—has existed for millions (if not billions) of years—and that the human race is young, having only been in existence for 6,000 years (since 4,004 BC). Dr. Curtis Hutson (1934-1995) and Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951) believed this and so do I. This is often called the ‘Gap Principle’ (that is, a time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2). However, I do not, nor have I ever, believed the bogus fraud of Evolution. Nothing has evolved. Proponents of a Young Earth (i.e., Ken Ham, Henry Morris, Kent Hovind, John Whitcomb) regularly (and very dishonestly) portray Old Earth supporters such as myself as believing Evolution, using legitimate arguments against the lies of Evolution in a wrongful and unscholarly attempt to discredit the legitimacy of an Old Earth. The Bible teaches a very old earth, millions and likely billions of years old. The fallacy of a Young Earth goes 100% against valid science, which has led many unbelievers to reject the Gospel on the basis of the woeful ignorance of many churches. Consider the following powerful statement by Pastor Max D. Younce…“Should one desire a continued, concentrated study of the years from the flood to the birth of Christ, they would arrive at approximately 2,345 years. Thus, from Adam to Christ is close to the figure of 4,000 years. Add another 2,000 plus from Christ to the present, and you have man on the earth for only 6,000 years. Therefore, the Gap Principle, as documented in Scripture makes evolution an absolute impossibility.  The Gap Principle made it possible for me to lead many people to Jesus Christ as their Savior, who had been influenced by the evolutionary philosophy.” [emphasis added] SOURCE:  The Truth About Evolution; Or, Don’t Let Satan Make A Monkey Out Of You, by Dr. Max D. Younce.I realized recently that the unsaved world laughs at Christians who hold to a Young Earth view, in particular concerning the matter of dinosaurs. It discredits a preacher when he goes against legitimate science, because most people are thinkers and they know bogus teachings when they hear it. It is simply absurd to claim that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,000 years ago.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross, the unsaved world laughs at gap theory proponents as well, as do folks like me who were once evolutionists who believed in millions of supposed years,  and are now Biblical Christians who believe in the truth of God’s Word which clearly teaches a young earth.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske look I am not a Gap person tho it was more exegetically sound then YEC looking at the whole of the Bible and history. But I hold a view that teaches a Old Universe and Young Earth possibly.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross why are you groveling at the feet of secular fundamentalists (evolutionists) who laugh at the idea, the historical fact of dinosaur and human coexistence,  while they laugh and shake their puny fists at God and His Word? You’re guilty of taking the fallible and false theories of fallen men (millions of supposed years) and elevating them above God’s Word, which teaches a young earth less than 10K years old.
Timothy Ross http://www.swordbooks.com/demonologycd.aspx This book is worth a read . The Origins of Satan are in it.
Ricky L Bagwell …JESUS…He is the visible image.. of the invisible God.. He existed before anything else was created.. and He is supreme.. over all creation…Even the winds and the waves obey Him…He is great.. and He performs the miraculous.. HE IS GOD.. all by Himself…Is there anything.. too hard for The Lord..?…He is able to do far more than we can ever ask or imagine…EVERYONEwho calls upon the name of The Lord.. shall be saved…Do not worry about anything.. but pray about everything.. make your request.. known to God…And His Gloryshall be seen upon you THANK U LORD GODTHANK U JESUSHALLELUJAHLuke 1. Colossians 1. Matthew 8. Psalms 86.Genesis 18. Ephesians 3.Acts 2. Philippians 4. Isaiah 60.IT’S TIME TO PRAYJoin the LIVE world wide prayer meeting via webcast 7-8:30 ( est ) every Tuesday eveningMeet us at: tscnyc.orgGOD ANSWERS PRAYER
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross you’re not pulling out of the debate because you find YEC Christians *ignorant*, as I’ve shown most YEC teachers like myself,  hold advanced degrees,  either MSc or PhDs (where’s your advanced degree)?Let it be known that you’ve failed to answer even ONE OF MY REFUTATIONS to the things you’ve posted. I’ve tried to be respectful of you, even though you posted some of the most ridiculous sounding things I’ve read here (360,000 year old human artifacts in ‘Samaria’, where it actually was Sumer, 6,000 years ago [www.britannica.com/place/sumer]).
Timothy Ross My studies is in the Bible and I do not have to show any evidence to what the Bible is about. Unless you want to talk scrolls and manuscripts. It is a book about Covenant Creation not creation literally. I have a Doctorate in Biblical Studies. I believe in context not pretext Biblical Theology and Dogma is Systematic theology.I am also a certified life coach.You want to talk context of scripture is one things but to teach the Bible as a science book is a insult to the purpose of the Bible.The Bible is not about science or math or health.I am open to a literal creation story but day 4 shows the flaws in such a interpretation at least from the YEC VIEW.I believe in a literal Adam as the covenant people. Eve was named later after she broke covenant.I do not respect Ken Ham or Hovind they are apart of a big problem with fundamentalism.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske my Bible notes say they have tablets that geologists date up to 60,000 years old to 360,000 years in the New American Bible Saint Joseph’s Edition. These are Catholic Geologist.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross being a “life coach” hardly qualifies you to be a science commentator, which you’re being when you comment on the Bible and dinosaurs,  and archaeology.  I teach physics and higher math, I also worked as a design engineer at a local shipyard.  I’m a former agnostic evolutionist who believed in millions of supposed years,  I’ve studied science my whole life!  I’ve also studied the Bible and theology for over 20 years, I think I’m somewhat more qualified than you on these matters.  But the point is truth, and that is my goal,  to enlighten you into accepting sound Biblical teaching and doctrine.  The question is, do you have the wisdom and humility to receive it!
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross, there are no 360,000 year old human artifacts like scrolls,  and unless you provide scholarly links to provide documentation for this incredible story,  I’ll discount it as nonsense!  Even if your claims on this were true,  how did this Catholic pseudo-scholar date these scrolls to be 360,000 years old?  By what objective method?  Specify.
Wahyu Wow Pete Fiske kinda pompous arent we?
Pete Fiske Look Brother, it pains me to see how theologically and Biblically naive you all are. Its this very ignorance (lack of knowledge and wisdom) that the Lord warned us against over 2,000 years ago: “My people perish for lack of knowledge. ”  ~ Hosea 4:6And the very thing that God told us to get because ot was the “principle thing”…wisdom (Proverbs 4:7) you all lack! God has sent me to you to warn you to repent of your adherence to this false doctrine, promoted and popularized in modern Pentecostal circles by the late pompous windbag,  the late Finis Jennings Dake.
Wahyu Really? Thats the most ignorant thing ive heard in a long time. With all the problems and difficulties we all face thats what God sent you to tell us????? If youre going to claim to speak for God then you better bring some power with it or shut up. Claiming to speak for God is something to be feared and reverenced and dont forget what God commanded us to do to false prophets
Bibliata Net We are all here to learn from the One 🙂
Pete Fiske John Conger ((Really? Thats the most ignorant thing ive heard in a long time.))So God’s message to His people, who tend to be high on emotion and low on education is “ignorant”?  (With all the problems and difficulties we all face thats what God sent you to tell us?????))YES! When you consider how many people the Gap heresy and millions of years has led astray. ((If youre going to claim to speak for God))All I’ve done is quote the Bible, and provide corroborating evidence from theology, and science. Anyone who quotes Scripture correctly quotes God directly, as Scripture was given by divine inspiration:  “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”~2 Timothy 3:16((then you better bring some power with it or shut up.))Satan would like that, wouldn’t he?((Claiming to speak for God is something to be feared and reverenced and dont forget what God commanded us to do to false prophets))Read my previous paragraph for reference.
Ricky Grimsley We all are quoting scriptures. We just disagree in what they mean. If you want to believe that ” everlasting to everlasting” means that God sat around and twiddled his thumbs until 6000 years ago thats your right. I just dont believe that. Trying to question people’s salvation over this issue is out of line in my opinion. Especially since smarter and holier people than us have disagreed about this since before i was born.
Wahyu No one is smarter than Pete Fiske
Ricky Grimsley Saul of tarsus was pretty smart too but he couldnt see he was wrong till God opened his eyes.
Pete Fiske Well since you haven’t bothered to challenge anything I’ve said on a point-by-point basis John,I would have to conclude that I’m at least smarter than you.
Pete Fiske Apples vs Oranges Ricky.God opened Paul’s eyes to the truth of who Jesus was, no such luck with God confirming that which is a Satanic lie…the mythical “Gap”.
Pete Fiske Timothy Ross:  Pope Francis Says Quran and Bible Are the Same… http://www.usapoliticstoday.com/pope-francis-to…/
Timothy Ross what does that have to do with anything LOL.
Pete Fiske That Catholicism is theological and therefore morally vacuous in its beliefs.
Timothy Ross Pete Fiske No then you are to quit believing in the Trinity then and the Canon Rome does not dictate Catholicism in history lol…And many other teachings that they taught that are in your Bible as well lol…
Pete Fiske The Triune Concept of God predates Catholicism and once more, as usual, you seem to ignore the verified content of what I’ve posted,  in this case,  the damnable heresy of this apostate pope, which he so blatantly pontificated,  that Christ isn’t the only way to Salvation and that no one can be saved outside of the authority of the Catholic church.  Do you believe that crap, or the words of the Lord in John 14:6?

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