DUAL Covenant Theology

DUAL Covenant Theology
Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

Joe Absher Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s”
Billy Monroe Poff But they still believe the Gentiles can be saved through Christ?
Joe Absher Billy Monroe Poff  I believe so,  “Jesus is for gentiles” I think. I could wrong but let me find the ” paper” I’m thinking of. I believe it’s “inaccurate” but before i get into trouble let me let me go over the material. God willing.
Gerardo de Dominicis A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship.
Roger Throckmorton Yes, but, I don’t understand it! I just don’t see it.
Gerardo de Dominicis He says that Jews can be saved by observing the Torah without believing in Jesus, because God made an eternal covenant with them.  This doctrine contradicts many bible verses but the book of Hebrews addresses this topic very clearly.
Jed Foster That’s a pretty grotesque theology.
Joe Bender But Jesus t.d aught in the temple  to the Jews not Gentiles. Where.do people.come up with these things
Troy Day I am very surprised that Hadee is teaching covenant theology which is NOT compatible with dispensationalism that he also teaches. Dual covenant may be something in the area of Tom Steele
Tom Steele Dual covenant theology, in a nutshell, is the idea that Jews are “allowed” to operate under the old covenant as a still legitimate covenant and do not need a path to salvation that goes through Jesus/Yeshua. So far as I know, Hagee has denied teaching this point of view, though it seems to me that something I read in a book of his a long time ago alluded to it. Maybe he used to teach it and has recanted. I really don’t know, I don’t actually follow him much these days. In a way, the concept does make some sense. The Israelites had a legitimate covenant with God prior to Yeshua coming as the Messiah. But it also has many, many flaws. I cannot endorse it any more than I can endorse “Replacement Theology”, which basically claims that the Church replaced Israel, Christians replaced the Jews as God’s covenant people, and the “new covenant” is completely separate from the “old covenant”. None of this is Scriptural either. The Bible plainly says that the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the sign of the new covenant is that God will put the Torah in the mind and write it on the heart of the one entering into the covenant (as opposed to the Torah being written on tablets of stone). Thus, the human heart becomes an “Ark of the Covenant” housing the Torah and we are able to obey His Torah out of our undeniable love for the Father. Dual covenant theology may make a little bit of sense, but it presents a post-Messianic path to salvation without the Messiah, and this is a very dangerous position to put oneself in. Much like the hyper-grace antinomian nonsense of today is a dangerous place to put oneself in. The logical thing to do is to accept Yeshua as your Master and Messiah AND obey His Torah out of your love for Him, as you are “saved from sin” and sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Any theological view that does not have one accepting Yeshua for salvation AND obeying the Bible, starting with Torah, is a dangerous path to walk. When people do that, if they are wrong, there is a place they will spend eternity, and it won’t be the Kingdom of Heaven. So do the smart thing, accept Yeshua AND obey Torah. If you truly love God, that shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. If you are truly in covenant, it’ll be very easy because He already put His Torah in your mind and wrote it on your heart (Jeremiah 31:32, Hebrews 8:10).
Joseph Kidwell Tom Steele, I have nothing to add. I agree 100%.
Tom Steele Hmmmm… someone in this group agreeing with me, that’s a first, LOL. 🤣🤣🤣
Joe Absher From “Are there two ways of Atonement”
Joe Absher An answer from Dr Goldberg (Moody)  to assertions from the Jewish scholar Rosenzweig “The Star of Redemption” that the Jewish people have no need to be converted or born again. As a people already in covenant
Troy Day How would the Jews be saved then? Billy Monroe Poff
Billy Monroe Poff If I am understanding the dual covenant theology viewpoint, (which I don’t subscribe to), they believe that their salvation is found within the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham…
Troy Day but does this involve faith in Jesus or just works?
Billy Monroe Poff Since the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, I’m assuming it’s ALL about keeping the ‘law of Moses’, while having faith in God’s promises to Abraham.
Randy H Johnson Our western civilization thought process is what keeps us from understanding this perspective (even though I don’t personally buy it).  We think in terms of individuals being saved or lost.  Eastern thought thinks collectively, of the people as a nation, rather than individuals (so for them, in a manner of speaking, there is no individual salvation apart from the larger community).Paul does say that at the return of Jesus, “all Israel will be saved”.  He deals with the problem of unbelieving individuals by saying “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”The reason dual covenant theology is false is because eventually God is going to reveal Jesus to Israel and all Israel is going to believe in Jesus as the Messiah (I assume whether they are living or dead at the time).  I compare this with Joseph revealing himself to his brothers when they came down to Egypt for food.Israel (as a nation) rejected Jesus as the Messiah and had him crucified, just like Joseph brothers sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites.  They meant it for evil, but God turned it around for good.  Just as Joseph saved Israel from famine in Egypt, Jesus will save Israel when He returns.  This requires a level of thought and abstraction that we are not used to practicing in our Greek influenced western frame of thinking.
Troy Day Billy Monroe Poff did you ask this because Hagee  prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem
Billy Monroe Poff I wasnt able to watch the dedication of the new embassy. I came across this article about John Hagee speaking at the event and that’s where it came from… http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/false-teacher-john…/…
Troy Day https://www.cnn.com/…/pastor-robert-jeffress-john-hagee…
Timothy K. Wiebe Abraham was saved under the old covenant, but there was NO new covenant at the time.

22 Comments

  • Philip Williams
    Reply June 11, 2019

    Philip Williams

    One of John Hagee’s positions, depending on who he is talking to. Essentially it’s denial of Jesus as being necessary for Jewish salvation.

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 12, 2019

    Troy Day

    Philip Williams planing to touch this subject a bit more in the days to come Especially with his book on Jerusalem – says a lot Billy Monroe Poff asked this subject few months back then your question followed shortly and you repeated it 1-2 times under Hagees videos

    Joe Absher responded Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s”

    and Gerardo de Dominicis promptly said A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship.

    I did not see a comment by Link Hudson – must have not visited Hagees church just yet but maybe soon

    Billy Monroe Poff May have asked this because Hagee prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem At least it was about that time

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 12, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day I talked Michael Brown about this when Hagee wrote ‘In Defense of Israel’ with the absurd claim that Jesus never claimed to be Israel’s Messiah. He went down to talk to Hagee and said Hagee denied what he had written. But I have the book. Hagee has never publicly corrected his claims in the book. That was just a way of having his cake and eating it to.

      Hagee has denied the essential tenet of Christianity. All who accept him may as well accept the liberal Christians, have themselves denied Christ! Brothers and sisters, do you understand what you are doing by accepting John Hagee as a Christian? You are denying Christ.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      Philip Williams I was thinking of his Jerusalem Countdown work Maybe we need to post some of it and crank it up for discussion – not sure where you see the Dual covenant though What exactly did he say about it?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day he denies in his book that Jews need salvation from Jesus! He claims Jesus never intended or claimed to have been their Messiah! The Lord’s wrath is going to be exceedingly great upon Hagee and all who are involved with him.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      yeah – seems like we are gonna need to pick up on this again Billy Monroe Poff pointed to this one back in the day but I guess we are not with the subject just yet ?

    • Billy Monroe Poff
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Billy Monroe Poff

      I remember hearing something he said about the two covenants .. One with Israel and one with Christians… That was the first I had heard of that theology and that’s why I posted it. I don’t remember much about the post now…. My memory is slipping in my old age…lol

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      YAP I remember it – we need to pick it up soon

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 11, 2020

    Troy Day

    Kyle Williams Ray E Horton this was first brought into the group by Billy Monroe Poff “Dual-covenant or two-covenant theology is a school of thought in Christianity regarding the relevance of the Hebrew Bible, which Christians call the Old Testament.” (Sourced from wikipedia’s page on Dual-Covenant Theology)

    I have noticed some what of a trend in most charismatic churches today and I see it spilling over into many of our Pentecostal churches today, this trend is a form of Dual-Covenant theology known as the Hebraic Roots or Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM.)

    I am confused as to how and why this has become almost the norm in churches today especially good bible believing Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. I have seen it in many non Denomonational charismatic churches in my region and even sat in on some classes taught at a local Assembly of God.
    There is A UPC Church down the road, in which the pastor, who often refers to himself as Rabbi, conducts Hebrew Roots classes and they as a church observe many of the Jewish feasts and festivals. Some even go as far as keeping the dietary codes laid out in Torah. They classify themselves as Torah observant. Is there any biblical support for such a doctrine? Some would say that Galatians 5:3 supports this. But that’s bad exegesis.

    The Apostle Paul spends much time in writing to the Galatians explicitly on this subject, as I read it.
    “STAND fast therefore with liberty where CHRIST hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to the whole law. CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, WHOSPEVER YOU ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE” Galatians 5:1-4 KJV

    This seems to be an explicit warning against dual covenant theology, dosen’t it? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=dual

  • Ken Van Horn
    Reply May 12, 2020

    Ken Van Horn

    All the covenants of God remain active and are eternal. There remains yet another covenant Christ will establish with Israel at His Second Coming (Jeremiah 31:32, 2 Sam 5:3).

    Gentiles are not obligated to obey the Abrahamic Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant because we are not physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    A Jewish believer in Jesus remains obligated to obey the Mosaic Covenant (Acts 21:20ff), even though obeying the LAW cannot save him.

    Jesus is is the WORD made flesh which means He is the LAW made flesh, the PROPHETS made flesh, and the WRITINGS made flesh. Want to know how Christ will judge you at the judgment seat? Look at the Law; it clearly lays out the principals of justice and the rewards and penalties for everything we do in the flesh, whether it is good or bad (2 Cor 5:10).

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      Ken Van Horn Billy Monroe Poff would ISRAEL be saved through JESUS or through Abrahamic Covenant ?

  • Troy Day
    Reply May 12, 2020

    Troy Day

    do we still find this heretical? RichardAnna Boyce Billy Monroe Poff

    • Billy Monroe Poff
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Billy Monroe Poff

      Troy Day I believe it depends upon the level that one would be inclined to take it to. To have a good understanding the Hebrew roots of Christianity is a good thing. But to fall into the legalistic practices thereof could lead to being on shaky ground. But I would say that each one should purpose in their own heart that whatever they do, they do it unto the Lord thy God. For His glory alone.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      Billy Monroe Poff well we’ve discussed before with Gary Micheal Epping and others BUT simply theologically separation of Israel from the NT church does not really fit. When you come to the point that one nation is saved under one covenant and the NT church under the blood covenant of Jesus THEN we end up with different divine entities offering salvation WHILE we know Jesus is the only mediator and sacrifice So just for that dualism is thrown out as heretical and I personally dont see a NT church going through the Tribulation surviving and getting saved during or after it By the time GOD send his wrath it is all a done deal for me

    • Doyle Rogers
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Doyle Rogers

      You wrote ” theologically separation of Israel from the NT church does not really fit.’ According to the Scripture Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, (gentiles ) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
      Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
      Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I ( the gentile church )might be graffed in. ……………………………………….. We share the same roots,……… what separates us is the fruits of the branches that are grafted in . GRACE VERSES THE LEVITICAL LAW.. ………………..Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
      Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
      Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN,, so making peace;
      Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
      Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
      Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      Doyle Rogers what are you saying? Does ISRAEL need another Savor besides Jesus? Are they not saved by the BLOOD from His Sacrifice on Calvary? What are you saying?

    • Doyle Rogers
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Doyle Rogers

      ISAIAH POTRAYED JESUS AS…….Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and AS A ROOT OUT OF A DRY GROUND. …………………. Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. ………………. NOT OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI BUT OF JUDAH . AN ETERNAL PRIESTHOOD THAT EVIDENTLY EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLDS WERE CREATED..

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      Doyle Rogers you just contradicted yourself with your own previous comment? what are you saying IS all ISRAEL going to be saved in ONE day without Jesus ?

    • Doyle Rogers
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Doyle Rogers

      YOU ASK ..what are you saying IS all ISRAEL going to be saved in ONE day without Jesus ?…… MY ANSWER……..ALL HUMANITY WAS PARTENTUALLY SAVED …IN ONE DAY (.THE DAY JESUS DIED UPON CALVARY’S CROSS..IF THEY WIII RECIEVE IT) BOTH JEW AND GENTILE … If you will read the book of Hebrews you will understand what I am posting…………….. What I am posting is there is a far greater Priest hood that exist in Which JESUS IS THE HIGH PRIEST. (that .continued with David (AND THE TRIBE OF JUDAH ) as prophet priest and king . It does not negate the Levitical Law but rather fulfills it. .

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      Doyle Rogers that is NOT what I asked you

    • Doyle Rogers
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Doyle Rogers

      What more can I say . I said that all humanity both Jew and gentile have to depend upon the blood of Jesus for their salvation . The Messianic prophet Isaiah in the OLD TESTAMENT ( WRITTEN UNDER THE LAW ) made this very clear..

    • Troy Day
      Reply May 12, 2020

      Troy Day

      bro Billy Monroe Poff will you pls explain to our bro Doyle Rogers the danger of dual covenant teaching He seems to be talking about something else perhaps not grasping this one well Just clarifying the stance on this one

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