DUAL Covenant Theology

DUAL Covenant Theology
Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

Joe Absher Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s”
Billy Monroe Poff But they still believe the Gentiles can be saved through Christ?
Joe Absher Billy Monroe Poff  I believe so,  “Jesus is for gentiles” I think. I could wrong but let me find the ” paper” I’m thinking of. I believe it’s “inaccurate” but before i get into trouble let me let me go over the material. God willing.
Gerardo de Dominicis A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship.
Roger Throckmorton Yes, but, I don’t understand it! I just don’t see it.
Gerardo de Dominicis He says that Jews can be saved by observing the Torah without believing in Jesus, because God made an eternal covenant with them.  This doctrine contradicts many bible verses but the book of Hebrews addresses this topic very clearly.
Jed Foster That’s a pretty grotesque theology.
Joe Bender But Jesus t.d aught in the temple  to the Jews not Gentiles. Where.do people.come up with these things
Troy Day I am very surprised that Hadee is teaching covenant theology which is NOT compatible with dispensationalism that he also teaches. Dual covenant may be something in the area of Tom Steele
Tom Steele Dual covenant theology, in a nutshell, is the idea that Jews are “allowed” to operate under the old covenant as a still legitimate covenant and do not need a path to salvation that goes through Jesus/Yeshua. So far as I know, Hagee has denied teaching this point of view, though it seems to me that something I read in a book of his a long time ago alluded to it. Maybe he used to teach it and has recanted. I really don’t know, I don’t actually follow him much these days. In a way, the concept does make some sense. The Israelites had a legitimate covenant with God prior to Yeshua coming as the Messiah. But it also has many, many flaws. I cannot endorse it any more than I can endorse “Replacement Theology”, which basically claims that the Church replaced Israel, Christians replaced the Jews as God’s covenant people, and the “new covenant” is completely separate from the “old covenant”. None of this is Scriptural either. The Bible plainly says that the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the sign of the new covenant is that God will put the Torah in the mind and write it on the heart of the one entering into the covenant (as opposed to the Torah being written on tablets of stone). Thus, the human heart becomes an “Ark of the Covenant” housing the Torah and we are able to obey His Torah out of our undeniable love for the Father. Dual covenant theology may make a little bit of sense, but it presents a post-Messianic path to salvation without the Messiah, and this is a very dangerous position to put oneself in. Much like the hyper-grace antinomian nonsense of today is a dangerous place to put oneself in. The logical thing to do is to accept Yeshua as your Master and Messiah AND obey His Torah out of your love for Him, as you are “saved from sin” and sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Any theological view that does not have one accepting Yeshua for salvation AND obeying the Bible, starting with Torah, is a dangerous path to walk. When people do that, if they are wrong, there is a place they will spend eternity, and it won’t be the Kingdom of Heaven. So do the smart thing, accept Yeshua AND obey Torah. If you truly love God, that shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. If you are truly in covenant, it’ll be very easy because He already put His Torah in your mind and wrote it on your heart (Jeremiah 31:32, Hebrews 8:10).
Joseph Kidwell Tom Steele, I have nothing to add. I agree 100%.
Tom Steele Hmmmm… someone in this group agreeing with me, that’s a first, LOL. 🤣🤣🤣
Joe Absher From “Are there two ways of Atonement”
Joe Absher An answer from Dr Goldberg (Moody)  to assertions from the Jewish scholar Rosenzweig “The Star of Redemption” that the Jewish people have no need to be converted or born again. As a people already in covenant
Troy Day How would the Jews be saved then? Billy Monroe Poff
Billy Monroe Poff If I am understanding the dual covenant theology viewpoint, (which I don’t subscribe to), they believe that their salvation is found within the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham…
Troy Day but does this involve faith in Jesus or just works?
Billy Monroe Poff Since the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, I’m assuming it’s ALL about keeping the ‘law of Moses’, while having faith in God’s promises to Abraham.
Randy H Johnson Our western civilization thought process is what keeps us from understanding this perspective (even though I don’t personally buy it).  We think in terms of individuals being saved or lost.  Eastern thought thinks collectively, of the people as a nation, rather than individuals (so for them, in a manner of speaking, there is no individual salvation apart from the larger community).Paul does say that at the return of Jesus, “all Israel will be saved”.  He deals with the problem of unbelieving individuals by saying “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”The reason dual covenant theology is false is because eventually God is going to reveal Jesus to Israel and all Israel is going to believe in Jesus as the Messiah (I assume whether they are living or dead at the time).  I compare this with Joseph revealing himself to his brothers when they came down to Egypt for food.Israel (as a nation) rejected Jesus as the Messiah and had him crucified, just like Joseph brothers sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites.  They meant it for evil, but God turned it around for good.  Just as Joseph saved Israel from famine in Egypt, Jesus will save Israel when He returns.  This requires a level of thought and abstraction that we are not used to practicing in our Greek influenced western frame of thinking.
Troy Day Billy Monroe Poff did you ask this because Hagee  prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem
Billy Monroe Poff I wasnt able to watch the dedication of the new embassy. I came across this article about John Hagee speaking at the event and that’s where it came from… http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/false-teacher-john…/…
Troy Day https://www.cnn.com/…/pastor-robert-jeffress-john-hagee…
Timothy K. Wiebe Abraham was saved under the old covenant, but there was NO new covenant at the time.

8 Comments

  • Philip Williams
    Reply June 11, 2019

    Philip Williams

    One of John Hagee’s positions, depending on who he is talking to. Essentially it’s denial of Jesus as being necessary for Jewish salvation.

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 12, 2019

    Troy Day

    Philip Williams planing to touch this subject a bit more in the days to come Especially with his book on Jerusalem – says a lot Billy Monroe Poff asked this subject few months back then your question followed shortly and you repeated it 1-2 times under Hagees videos

    Joe Absher responded Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s”

    and Gerardo de Dominicis promptly said A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship.

    I did not see a comment by Link Hudson – must have not visited Hagees church just yet but maybe soon

    Billy Monroe Poff May have asked this because Hagee prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem At least it was about that time

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 12, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day I talked Michael Brown about this when Hagee wrote ‘In Defense of Israel’ with the absurd claim that Jesus never claimed to be Israel’s Messiah. He went down to talk to Hagee and said Hagee denied what he had written. But I have the book. Hagee has never publicly corrected his claims in the book. That was just a way of having his cake and eating it to.

      Hagee has denied the essential tenet of Christianity. All who accept him may as well accept the liberal Christians, have themselves denied Christ! Brothers and sisters, do you understand what you are doing by accepting John Hagee as a Christian? You are denying Christ.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      Philip Williams I was thinking of his Jerusalem Countdown work Maybe we need to post some of it and crank it up for discussion – not sure where you see the Dual covenant though What exactly did he say about it?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day he denies in his book that Jews need salvation from Jesus! He claims Jesus never intended or claimed to have been their Messiah! The Lord’s wrath is going to be exceedingly great upon Hagee and all who are involved with him.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      yeah – seems like we are gonna need to pick up on this again Billy Monroe Poff pointed to this one back in the day but I guess we are not with the subject just yet ?

    • Billy Monroe Poff
      Reply June 13, 2019

      Billy Monroe Poff

      I remember hearing something he said about the two covenants .. One with Israel and one with Christians… That was the first I had heard of that theology and that’s why I posted it. I don’t remember much about the post now…. My memory is slipping in my old age…lol

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      YAP I remember it – we need to pick it up soon

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.