Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
Does President Trump Precede the Antichrist?
Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
56 Comments
Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply.
Leave a Reply to Bob Wizenhut Cancel reply
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
Varnel Watson
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gop-tax-bill-headed-for-quick-passage-in-house-senate-on-tuesday/2017/12/19/61f83dac-e4cf-11e7-9ec2-518810e7d44d_story.html?utm_term=.e1c8acad7c14&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1
Ira Huth
https://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/12/1038166-soon-trump-backed-tax-bill-passed-comcast-makes-huge-50b-announcement/
Varnel Watson
now Ira Huth IJR’s owner Skatell co-founded the Media Group of America is also became digital director for Australia’s #Liberal Party Go figure
Ira Huth
Brother Troy Day Just trying to compare Apples to Apples with IJR and the Liberal, secular socialist Washington Post. Below is a news feed from Fox News same topic. I won’t dare post from CBN, I certainly don’t want to be shunned, for the appearance that I’m Kingdom Now. In addition jeopardize my Salvation.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156441011776336&id=15704546335
Varnel Watson
I dont think you are Kingdom-now but CBN sure is
Ira Huth
Brother Troy Day I posed a previous question that I believed you never answered. My question was if Pat Robinson is Kingdom Now, would that effect his Salvation and being able to operate in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Varnel Watson
I am on Comcast and they’ve been in the news lately for problems with delivering internet packages per subscription. The college where I teach in the area also suffered from internet outage for hours at the time recently. Comcasts infrastructure change was long needed for them to keep in business. Wonder if they will be the first ones to employee the recently revoked net neutrality? What an easy way this turns to be to control free speech by giving large tax break to greedy communication companies
Street Preacherz
Hate to state simplest thing but don’t they all precede the “antichrist”
Varnel Watson
immediate preceding may be meant here Like now is Trump, now is antiChrist Ricky Grimsley like pre-wrath is Trump then wrath is antiChrist
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi seemed appropriate for today !
Nelson Banuchi
Wouldn’t surprised, but I wouldn’t necessarily bet on it.
Varnel Watson
Bob Wizenhut may – he is usually all in
Bob Wizenhut
Hard to disagree with anything said there. So Troy Day, do you believe God can use someone hated by many to fulfill His prophecy?
Jeanette Elizondo
He is also liked by many one being me !!
Bob Wizenhut
I don’t think Troy is very fond of him and I know that Nelson Banuchi ins’t. In fact, Nelson was, maybe still is, on a campaign to catch the President in a lie so that he can demonstrate that our President is just as immoral as previous Presidents. Sad but true.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-trump-really-saved/
Bob Wizenhut
I’ve never assumed he was saved. I’m having surgery on Wednesday. The surgeon is skilled. I’ve never even inquired on whether he is saved. I went to see my mechanic today. I trust him. But I’ve also never asked myself whether he is saved. I guess I just have a general distrust of the motives of those that go around asking if this person or that is saved. Jeanette Elizondo – what do you think? Should we demonize those that God raises up for His purpose just because we suspect that maybe they aren’t saved?
Jeanette Elizondo
If God can use a DONKEY I am sure He can use MY President Trump for such a time as this !!!
Varnel Watson
Did God save the said donkey at the end?
Bob Wizenhut
Troy Day – would it have been appropriate to be asking if President Obama was saved 8 years ago? Of course not. Just because President Trump isn’t the first black President doesn’t mean we should show him the same respect.
Bob Wizenhut
Troy Day – of all the times I’ve heard someone talk about the donkey you are the first one to ask if the donkey was saved. Does it matter? We know it was an ass. Isn’t that all that is important? And we know that President Trump can be an ass. So why do we need to ask if he is saved? In both stories the real story is the power of God working through an ass.
Bishop Bernie L Wade
Looks like it will be good for book sales….
Bob Wizenhut
Bishop Bernie L Wade – is he writing a book?
Varnel Watson
whos writing a book again now?
Bishop Bernie L Wade
Troy Day not sure whonit is, but there was a guy who looked like that who claimed to be a gr8 prophecy preacher. He was from Cleveland, Tennessee’s
Varnel Watson
got ya – Perry is writing many books #rightON
Bishop Bernie L Wade
Troy Day not a fan
Varnel Watson
oh well may be you can meat Terry Wiles in the Amazon jungle or Jesus – all the same to me š
Nora Neel-Toney
This needs to be made to share. A powerful word
Varnel Watson
it is shareable – you click to go to the article and share from there
Nora Neel-Toney
Troy Day ty
Joe Babcock
God most certainly is on Trump’s side. 1 Thess 4:16 says clearly “Trump of God…” This is at the Rapture… (Tongue in cheek)
Varnel Watson
been trying to tell ya Link Hudson
Bob Wizenhut
Maybe a better way to say it is that clearly God’s hand has raised up and protected Trump, that God is using Trump to bring glory to himself. But I don’t really look at it as God being on Trump’s side as I don’t know what exactly that would be. I don’t know that Trump’s primary objective is to bring glory to God, even if many of his policies are consistent with Biblical principles. I think of Trump more like King Jehu.
Joe Babcock
…And the Rapture precedes the Antichrist. ???
Varnel Watson
as well as the Tribulation Link Hudson
Link Hudson
In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture takes place at the parousia. In II Thessalonians 2:8, that wicked one is destroyed at the Lord’s parousia.
See verse 15.
I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(NKJV)
II Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
(NKJV)
Varnel Watson
The parousia includes both the pre-Trib rapture and the Second advent. Very clear and easy to understand in the Greek
Link Hudson
Troy Day if it were so easy to understand in Greek why wasn’t the default position of Greek speakers for the first centuries AD? You were supposed to post some evidence for whatever ypur views are on this.
The B Greek discussion had some people arguing along the lines of trying to makes the Greek work with pretrib–just like pretribbers do with the narrative and didactic aspects of the NT.
If the presence/visitation/parousia were to last 7 years would He be visible in the sky the whole time. Doesn’t the actual meaning of the word parousia present problems for your view.
It doesn’t surprise me that pretribbers can put together some line of arfument for the problems with the viewpoint. It is just how strained and incredulous those arguments are–and the lack of a real Biblical reason to go with pretrib in the first place? Where is the clear argument for it that would cause one to be motivated to stretch the interpretations if other passages to fit it?
Varnel Watson
yeah Not explaining to you again and again and again Go back and read the dozen times I’ve already explained If you cant get it you just cant get it. Truth is, it actually was the default position of the early church that later got diluted under Byzantium Read on http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Link Hudson
Troy Day I’m not posting to refute that. You’ve got one, maybe two quotes there that could possibly fit into the pre-trib framework. I’m not sure why Ephraim was so confused about it, but there is no reason to think he held to Darby’s whole theory, either.
You have probably seen the post several times that shows that many of these early Christians clearly were not pre-trib.
Do you have an actual defense of your position on the parousia that you wrote yourself? This sounds a lot like the high school kid’s imaginary Canadian girlfriend that he met at summer camp, the kid who insists she exists and insists that he showed his friends a picture of her way back when.
You claim you have written something. It’s possible it was in a post I missed. I recall many years ago a vague post that implied that you might be able to stretch out the parousia for many years, and the rest were links. Maybe that post was a link, too.
A couple of weeks ago, didn’t you promise you’d write a post defending your position. Two weeks… Anyway, I guess this is the post, yet another a post claiming you have addressed the issue in the past. Have any of your posts NOT been links to some article we are supposed to sift for for an explanation of how the parousia is 7 years long, happens twice, or whatever?
How about if you actually write a post yourself on how the parousia lasting 7 years (which, as far as I can see, you just clarified as your position today) squares with the actual meaning of the word parousia?
Varnel Watson
The proBIBLE is based on the b-greek list which is a historical community of the best Greek scholars from various colleges and universities in America. It donāt get better than this with Biblical Greek. Sure their argumentation is very scholarly in tone, wordy and at times lengthy in explanation. How else could something be related cross culturally? But when you get to the bottom of it itās the best of the best and makes sense ā YES it requires basic prerequisite in Greek. You cant just pick your Greek alphabet in algebra and Strongs or Vines and become an expert. But with you nothing is good enough. ProBIBLE is too lengthy and not designed for non-pros like you. Another article is just a sniplet too short and nod good enough. Someone blocked you on FB and you cant see their post so the platform is faulty for your own mistakes. Your internet is bad so when you click a link it loads it only partially. Well bu-yah ā at a certain point a man just got to deal with what life has dealt to him.
Current discussion as example:
John Darby translated the Bible from Greek in both French and English. The man had a feel for languages and proposed certain thesis that he proved straight from the Greek. But there you come along and what to be smarter than Darby and the whole b-greek list based on what? What qualifications you have that make you a better expert in Greek, Bible translation or what have you – and why should we listen to your wrongful interpretation of the Greek in 1-2 Thes. and not to Darby and the b-greek experts?
Link Hudson
Troy Day Don’t link to a discussion of multiple opinions and claim you posted a response that explains your own views. That seems rather disingenuous to me.
I did not make any negative comments about the Greek scholarship of the B-Greek list. I am writing this based on my recollection of a few posts to links over the years. You sent me to a discussion of various people with different opinions. The one that seemed to possible be something you could side with…though I did not know because you wouldn’t say… seemed to be a semantic argument– the same sort of stuff pre-tribbers try to do with English. In other words, not something in the Greek that demanded pre-trib or even made it the most natural interpretation. If you assume pre-trib, you can read it into all kinds of passages. But what is the basis for assuming pre-trib? What scripture teaches it?
I do not think you have actually ever written a post where you yourself with a solution to the pre-trib problem with the parousia, except maybe a noncommital suggestion without much detail suggesting the parousia, the visit/presence could last seven years.
Why don’t you explain that using language us commoners can understand and post it for discussion?
Varnel Watson
naah not doing it again – you’ve got plenty to read about the meaning of the parousia Here is a great starter
As we discussed concerning the Rapture, passages such as John John 14:1-3 are of a completely different character from what is described in Revelation Rev. 19:1+ concerning the Second Coming. In John John 14:1, Jesus indicates a heavenly destination for believers. He returns from His Fatherās house to fetch them and to bring them to heaven. There is an emphasis on intimacy: āthat where I am, there you may be alsoā (John John 14:3). How different this is from the scene before us in this chapter (below)! Jesus will ride forth in warfare and vengeance with the armies of heaven. There will be immense bloodshed at His coming and His return is followed by the reign of the saints on earth (Rev. Rev. 20:4-6+). It is irreconcilable differences such as these in various ācoming passagesā which tell us that His coming for the Church at the Rapture is a different coming than His Second Coming.4
In its description of the Second Coming, Revelation Rev. 19:1+ does not mention either a translation (rapture) of living believers (1Cor. 1Cor. 15:51-52), or a resurrection of dead believers (cf. 1Th. 1Th. 4:16).5
biblestudytools.com/ commentaries/revelation/related-topics/the-jewish-wedding-analogy.html
Link Hudson
Troy Day
Naa not doing it again? Doing what ‘again’? That post you said you were going to post 2 weeks ago?
Does Revelation 19 say ‘second coming’? There is a lot we could say that Revelation 19 does not directly say. Do you believe that the spirits of departed saints go to be with the Lord? If you do, what is your case with John 14? Isn’t our eternal abode supposed to be with the Father also. We are waiting for a city whose builder and maker is God. Do you think that is only for seven years, or is this eternal?
Why is it that pre-trib relies on inferences like you are using rather than more direct teachings of scripture on the matter?
Btw, for the record, I do not consider this post you just made to address the issue of how the ‘parousia’ can happen at the rapture and the man of sin can be destroyed at the brightness of the Lord’s parousia– when pre-trib doesn’t have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture.
Varnel Watson
Sorry Link I am not of the habit to post during church hours or to repeat myself every two weeks Good luck
Link Hudson
Troy Day just say your gonna do something. Then after about 2 weeks say you are not. Posting a link isn’t rhe same as posting an explanation.
Btw, no one asked you to post during church hours. Strange comment. Can you turn your phone off or turn off notifications?
Varnel Watson
you are in serious error equating parousia to į¼”Ī¼ĪĻĪ± ĪŗĻ ĻĪÆĪæĻ
Link Hudson
Troy Day I do not recall making that specific argument. I have made my point from specific passages. II Thessalonians does refer to certain things associated with the day of Christ.
Varnel Watson
of course you dont recall in 2 weeks – whats new?
Link Hudson
Troy Day you do not seem to recall saying you were going…
About 2 weeks ago you said you were going to post on how the Greek is supposed to prove the rapture in I Thes. 4 does not occur at the parousia in v. 15, was it, or that the coming of Christ lasts for 7 years. You’ve been referring to some past post you supposedly made–probably a link to a conversation where one person wrote something you might agree with and you are supposed to figure it out.
If you want people to believe in pretrib deal with its problems, instead of threatening them with missing the first load.
Varnel Watson
I posted you the Greek 2 months ago You still said it was too hard for your to read it Oh Well right? I reposted you a sniplet again just above – oh well Did you ever read the book by Pentecost I recommended to you – prob. no – oh well Whos got the time for this every couple of weeks? Hold on to you private interpretation and stay rapture ready š
Ron Hamm
Yes…everyone so far has. Lol
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson explained well – take time to watch this teaching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOxsQajyG6I
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson Joe Absher Bob Wizenhut this just in – POTUS has some affinity to Pentecostal preacher and asks a lot about last days prophecies. Not to be 100% BUT seems like he wants to be the one to fulfill them. Maybe we are even closer to the rapture?
Joe Absher
The reason people study eschatology is because they want to know how much time they have to goof off. And the reason people teach Eschatology is because people will pay good money to goof off. š