FEATURED, theology February 11, 2021

10 Things in the BIBLE that cannot be explained without the PRE-ADAMIC RACE GAP THEORY

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1. Where lost souls come from?

2. Where the demons come from?

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

8. Age of earth?

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Just try to explain the above without pre-Adamic race GAP theory and you will see for yourself…

PENTECOSTAL THEOLOGY GROUP DISCUSSION ON GAP THEORY:

Ricky Grimsley	I would disagree with 1,2 and 4.
Peter Fiske	I can’t find any common ground with what you’re proposing.
Troy Day	Ricky Grimsley they are all connected

Peter Fiske	When someone thinks about dinosaurs, millions of years ultimately comes to mind because our culture has been so brainwashed by evolutionary thinking, which supposed deep-time is, and why people erroneously think dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago before our supposed ape-like ancestors evolved some 5 million supposed years ago. And that’s why some well-meaning (and some not so well-meaning but malicious false teachers like the late Finis Dake) but theologically stunted apologists , have tried to compromise the Bible with millions of years false teaching. Dinosaurs Aren’t a problem for scripture, when one considers that Job 40 talks about a large sauropod dinosaur [https://answersingenesis.org/…/could-behemoth-have…/] that dragon legends from aronund the world correspond with what we would call dinosaurs.
Tim Law	I always tell the Theistic evolution group if you believe in death before Adam then who sinned before Adam. Death, sickness, and disease are all a result of the fall of Adam.
Peter Fiske	Romans 5:12 , and it also contradicts a supposed Gap in Genesis 1:2 because if there were millions of years before Adam , some pre adamic race falling because of sin, that would put sin before Adam and Eve as well and would contradict the scriptures.
Ricky Grimsley	So Luciferâ€™s fall did nothing?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, Lucifer fell in the Garden of Eden , wickedness was found in him (in Eden, Ezekiel 28:13-15) and in turn he tempted Adam and Eve to rebel against God’s command.
Ricky Grimsley	Wickedness from where?
Ricky Grimsley	Ezekiel gives a list of sins.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Nowhere does it say that Lucifer fell in the Garden of Eden, but from the mount of God.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, yes it does, read Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, wickedness was found in the heart of Lucifer , so tell me, Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was in Eden when sin/iniquity was found in him. How then could Lucifer fall before the Garden of Eden was created if he was still a good angel in the Garden of Eden as Ezekiel 28:13 tells us?
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, the mount of God is a reference to heaven, and the event of Lucifer’s fall is also told in Isaiah 14 in more detail. Need to get your nose out of the Dake Bible!
Ricky Grimsley	It doesnâ€™t say where Lucifer was when he sinned.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske No it doesn’t say he fell while in the garden of Eden, but fell while in heaven. Get it straight.
Gary Micheal Epping	Jesus tells his disciples in Luke 10:18, â€œI saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.â€
Ricky Grimsley	Again. He still has access to heaven.
Gary Micheal Epping	Ricky Grimsley Yes he did as satan. I was just trying to establish when Lucifer sinned and was thrown out of heaven and was transformed into satan.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, and of course Jesus would have seen Lucifer fall, since Jesus is God the Son, it is he who banished Lucifer and his demons from heaven, to take temporary control over the Earth.
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas henry Jr if nothing caused the world to be void then why is verse two there? Why did moses not leave it out?
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping it shows a God started with a lump of clay and molded it to fit mankind. We werenâ€™t a part 2 to a failed creation sandwich between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
Peter Fiske	Thomas, Gappists are blinded by Satanic false doctrine, I had no idea that this unscriptural Genesis compromise held such Sway in the minds of it’s deluded adherence like Gary Micheal Epping.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, not a blessed thing caused the world to become void, because there was no pre-adamic world where Lucifer was judged and the dinosaurs and soulless cavemen were allegedly destroyed by some mythical event called Lucifer’s flood. That’s extraneous rubbish added to scripture by Genesis compromising false teachers, of which Dake is perhaps the most famous.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Peter Fiske i am more shocked that â€œspirit-filledâ€ Christians believe this heresy
Peter Fiske	Thomas, read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Ricky Grimsley	Thomas Henry Jr. Iâ€™m shocked that people want to you words like heresy and isolate most of the world because they want to believe science lies.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, as a science instructor, I’m shocked that you are so gullible as to conflate real science with evolutionary thinking, which is just a philosophical interpretation. Science has nothing to do with millions of years, and our starting place should be solid foundation of scripture, not the cracked foundation of materialistic evolutionary thinking.
Ricky Grimsley	Look. I have my opinion and you have yours. Do you think the earth has corners?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one. Opinions backed up by objective facts are what matters, and there are no objective facts that prove the Earth is 4.6 billion years old and that life evolved from nonliving chemicals by any naturalistic or supposed theistic guided process. You need to wrap your head around that objective truth before we can have an intelligent conversation.
Ricky Grimsley	My objective truth is the Bible is true but the stars are really far away. Adam wouldnâ€™t even have seen any stars.
Ricky Grimsley	Anyway. You canâ€™t change my mind on this.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, you can’t tell me that you don’t cling to Dake, that he hasn’t been a significant influence on your erroneous view of Genesis!?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley,((My objective truth is the Bible))While on the surface that sounds quite agreeable and reasonable, it’s actually doesn’t mean the same thing when I say that. The Bible doesn’t teach that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. There’s no need for that much time unless one wants to corkscrew evolutionary thinking into Genesis for the nefarious purpose of altering! the context of the first 11 chapters. That’s what false prophets do
Ricky Grimsley	No one is altering any texts. I believe that in genesis 1:1 God created the earth and by 1:2 it had been destroyed and God is remaking the earth 6000 thousand years ago.
Thomas Henry Jr.	All of those can be proven without the gap theory
Peter Fiske	Well, I’m a science instructor graduate in physics education with an undergraduate in mechanical engineering, and in my ears of studying science in college and just for fun, there isn’t a substantial and foolproof line of evidence to prove that the Earth is supposedly 4.6 billion years old. The only reason we need deep time is too find room for millions of years and evolution to have occurred period without deep time, no evolution, and without evolution, we must have been intelligently and purposefully created by a Creator God. So it is a profound mystery to me why some self-professed Christians have to try to use such ridiculous false ideas as a non-existent “gap” in Genesis to try to appease secular scientists.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Peter Fiske i am shocked any Christian believe in it when Scripture says there is no DEATH until Adam
Ricky Grimsley	No death of humans. But death was planned for otherwise there wouldnâ€™t have been a free of life that Adam and ever were banished from? Didnâ€™t God do the first killing?
Troy Day	Peter Fiske PE is not PT 🙂 Thomas Henry Jr. you must be reading NLT Romans 5:12 through one man not through Adam
Thomas Henry Jr.	Adam is the man
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, the Greek word for man in Romans 5:12 is “anthropos” (where we get the term anthropomorphic).https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The Hebrew word for men in Genesis 1:26 is “A’dam” ( where we get the name of Adam, the first man from). https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The representative man that Romans 5:12 talks about is the first man, Adam, not some soulless pre-Adamite caveman that Dake dreamt up out of nowhere.
Troy Day	Thomas Henry Jr. Come on Prove them When did Satan fall on earth?
Thomas Henry Jr.	After 6 day
Troy Day	Says where in the BIBLE?
Thomas Henry Jr.	He is called Lucifer and walked in the garden on the 6th day the fact God says there is no sin in the world
Troy Day	Says where in the BIBLE?
Gary Micheal Epping	Clearly Satan was the serpent in the Garden of Eden, â€œAnd he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years (REV20:2).â€Satan was already a liar and sinner when he came to Eve. â€œAnd the Lord God commanded the man, saying, â€˜Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (GEN 2:16-17).â€™â€ â€œBut the serpent said to the woman, â€œYou will NOT surely die.â€ So, Satan was a liar, and already a fallen being with sin existing before the fall of Adam and Eve. But, that was not his first sin.
Troy Day	Not just being a being of a fallen kind but he was there with the purposes to make other creations fall like he did – meaning a well established plan to undermine the authority of God
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, Ezekiel 28:13-15, Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden until inquity was found in him. Eden was created during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31), so sometime between then and Genesis 3, when the events of the fall of Adam occurred. Genesis 4:25 tells us that Adam was 130 and Seth was born as a replacement for Abel. So one can infer that Adam and Eve were in the Garden for approximately 100 years.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Peter Fiske right!!!!!!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Seth was not born in the garden of Eden. Scripture says that only Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden after they sinned.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping he never said Seth was
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, reread what I said, and then reread Genesis 4:25. I didn’t say if they were in the Garden when Seth was born, I said that Adam was 130 and Seth was born, and it’s very likely that some of the events told about in Genesis 3 occurred within a 10 to 20-year time frame before the birth of Seth and after the Fall from Grace.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Peter Fiske right and even Jewish scholars and Rabbis teach the same.
Peter Fiske	Thomas Henry Jr. YepðŸ‘ŒðŸ‘.
Troy Day	hey Thomas and Peter Fiske enough with the folklore stories Here is what the BIBLE says Ezekiel 28 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. …. So I threw you to the earthThere was plenty of time from the day lucifer was created and the point when he was degraded from heaven to earth
Thomas Henry Jr.	I didnâ€™t give folklore
Ricky Grimsley	Except for his sin required people. Ezekiel 28:16 KJVS[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Peter Fiske	Troy, Ezekiel 28:13-15 (NIV)”13. YOU WERE IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD:every precious stone adorned you:carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,topaz, onyx and jasper,lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.bYour settings and mountingscwere made of gold;on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God;you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your waysfrom the day you were createdtill wickedness was found in you.”http://biblehub.com/niv/ezekiel/28.htm
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, the KJV has confusing verbiage because it is 400 years old and the English language has changed considerably 400 years.https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.htmlYou’re not any less holy for using a modern translation!
Ricky Grimsley	Peter Fiske I read the esv now.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, good for you, as long as you do it without any of the Dake commentaries, you’ll be fine.
Ricky Grimsley	I have moved on from most of Dakeâ€™s teachings.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Love it or not, “The King James Bibleâ€”the bestselling book of all time, the most quoted book in the English languageâ€”is celebrating its 400th anniversary this year.” Hard to argue with success. (https://www.wsj.com/…/SB1000142405311190391810457650278…)
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping , it isn’t about the KJV being the most prolific and best selling Bible in 400 years, in fact the 400-year age of the KJV illustrates my point. The fact that Dake, and other false prophets use KJV, and the biblical illiterates that follow them, indicates a pathetic lack of in context truthful knowledge of biblical doctrine among too many who called themselves ‘Christian.’First of all, which KJV are you referring to? The KJV 1, the 1611 manuscript, had to be significantly revised in 1769 at both Cambridge and Oxford Universities. The reason? The English language has significantly changed in the 158 years between 1611 and 1769! https://rickbeckman.org/log/kjv-1611-vs-1769/Therefore, the Bible that we call the AV (Authorized Version) KJV is either the Cambridge or the Oxford revision of the 1611 original manuscript.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske You don’t need to use the KJV to make a case for a time before Gen 1:2.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, ((You don’t need to use the KJV to make a case for a time before Gen 1:2))Using the KJV makes it a lot easier to make mistakes since the language used is 400 year old English prose, which most people nowadays short of Shakespearean literature professors, aren’t proficient in.https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.html
Ricky Grimsley	Demons can come from genesis 6. You donâ€™t need oldEarth for that.
Gary Micheal Epping	I am assuming you are referring to demons as fallen angels. if so, then they fell when Lucifer fell.
Ricky Grimsley	Demons are not fallen angels
Gary Micheal Epping	Ricky Grimsley What are they then?
Ricky Grimsley	They are the spirits of the offspring of the fallen angels and people Perhaps some are the souls of people that lived before adam. If they existed
Gary Micheal Epping	Ricky Grimsley Some believe that Rev. 12:4 is a reference to a third of the angels falling and becoming demons.
Ricky Grimsley	I donâ€™t think rev 12:4 has happened yet. Satan and his angels have still had access to the heavenlies this whole time. He accuses the brethren and also the passages in Job.
Gary Micheal Epping	Ricky Grimsley Jesus tells his disciples in Luke 10:18, â€œI saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.â€ So, it could not be later in the Tribulation period. It had to be before the time of Christ, and there is no reference the event happening between Genesis and the time of Christ. So, it had to happen prior to the tempting of Adam and Eve.
Ricky Grimsley	Well he was back in heaven by the time of job. Also it says he accuses the brethren day and night.
Gary Micheal Epping	Ricky Grimsley Yes that is true. I was trying to make reference to the time when Lucifer was thrown out of heaven to the ground as satan.
Troy Day	except Ricky Grimsley demons were already present in Gen 6 so they cant come from Gen 6 if they were already there
Ricky Grimsley	Where does it say there were demons already?
Troy Day	Are you saying there were no demons before Gen 6?
Ricky Grimsley	Sure itâ€™s possible but I donâ€™t know thatâ€™s it possible to prove. You have to presuppose a pre-Adamou world and assume that whoever followed Satan became demons. There isnâ€™t really proof of that is there?
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, Genesis 6 doesn’t prove a pre-adamite world, in fact in Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel in the Garden of Eden until wickedness was found in him. You have to stick to God’s word minus Dake’s heretical commentaries.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, which was after Creation Week, while Lucifer was still a good angel (Ezekiel 28:13) in the Garden of Eden.
Peter Fiske	You don’t need an old Earth for anything, other than to compromise the literal canon of Genesis 1 with fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas of millions of years in a mythical gap.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske But science overwhelmingly says old, even though you disagree.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, you provide no evidence, all you do is spew out naked assertions and subjective talking points. That’s hardly the practice of a scholar who’s trying to make a case for particular point of view. I used to be an evolutionist, and it was hearing the damn the damnable Gap Theory, taught out of the heretical Dake Bible, that literally destroyed whatever confidence I had as a young spiritual truth-seeker in investigating biblical Christianity. So it doesn’t matter what the consensus opinion of the academic establishment, which is left-leaning and its politics and Godless and their worldview says, the science as I have shown doesn’t support suppose deep-time. I can see that you have no idea as to how to defend against what I’m saying from a scientific perspective, that’s okay, not everyone has to be a scientist. But let’s see you at least try to post a scientific case for millions of years from a non Darwinian, christian-based source. Hugh Ross would even do! I love dismantling Hugh Ross’s arguments.
Ricky Grimsley	Donâ€™t worry Peter Fiske, Dake will hug you when you get to heaven and say â€œI told you soâ€.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Your scientific perspective doesn’t match up with what most scientists say. Overwhelmingly, scientists say, the earth is very very old, with Stephen Hawking stating, “Any reasonable model of the universe must start with a singularity. This would mean that science could predict that the universe must have had a beginning, but that it could not predict how the universe should begin: for that one would have to appeal to God.” (http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-the-universe.html). He added, ‘The human race has existed as a separate species for about two million years. Civilisation began about ten thousand years ago, and the rate of development has been steadily increasing,” with the universe dated at 14.B years old.
Ricky Grimsley	I would take you more seriously if you could refrain from calling us satanic because we believe in science. Or like we believe in normal things like the adam wouldnâ€™t even see any stars when was created cause the light wasnâ€™t visible.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIV) states as follows:”For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”Remember that signature verse as I go down the line! You seem to want to defer to non-Christian evolutionist (like the late Stephen Hawking) sources to try to prove the unbiblical idea of supposed deep-time or billions of years. How beautiful you are! Going to an anti-christian source Who doesn’t even think that there is a Creator, let alone the God of the Bible! You have resorted to Desperate Measures to try to maintain an air of credibility for your late Gap-Myth false teacher guru, Finis Dake. He’s on the same level as Hawking, in that he also, perhaps unwittingly as well, worked for Satan to spread false doctrine among the low information members of the Body of Christ.Stephen Hawking worked on black holes, and he wrote a book called ‘The Grand Design’, in which he sprinkled his atheistic philosophy based on Evolution and millions of years into some of it his physics work on the quantum mechanical workings of the inside of of black holes.”Atheistic faith masquerading as science:As usual with atheistic scientists, Hawkingâ€™s atheopathy long predated his science. His influential mother Isabel was a Communist, and in his teen years he admired the strongly anti-Christian mathematical philosopher Bertrand Russell.”https://creation.com/stephen-hawking-god
Ricky Grimsley	The old â€œ your gonna burn in hell if you donâ€™t agree with meâ€ argument……it used to work.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, ((if you could refrain from calling us satanic because we believe in science))Funny you should say that to a science instructor who used to being evolutionist. That what you call science isn’t science, but a theistic philosophy masquerading as science. There is no scientific evidence that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, no objective foolproof scientific method exists for making that claim! Radiometric dating techniques start with flawed assumptions and have problems attached to them.What’s worse is that your putting your face in the unbiblical, and non scientific idea of billions of supposed years of deep time instead of listening to the Word of God, when it clearly implies that the Earth is less than 10,000 calendar years old.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, IDK what you’re talking about. I can’t determine anyone’s salvation any more than you or any other human being can. The blood of Jesus Christ, and our surrender in terms of repentance of our sins to that sacrifice determines our salvation, nothing else. Having said that though, for self-professed believers to cling to materialistic ideas about the age of the Earth in order to try to save the reputation of a single false teacher, Finis Jennings Dake, pretty pathetic.
Ricky Grimsley	When you use words like heresy and saying people are having itching ears and all that……I know what you mean.
Peter Fiske	Ricky, you should read 2 Timothy 4:3-4, those folks that fanatically cling to date and the unbiblical Gap myth are those type of folks, willing to surround themselves with false teachers that will tell them anything they want to hear.
Troy Day	Ricky Grimsley seems like Peter Fiske has a much larger fish to fry. He still cant point in the Bible where satan was fallen. The only option is flood of lucifer and the tohu-va-bohu destruction in Gen 1:2
Peter Fiske	Ezekiel 28:13-15, Satan fell in the garden of Eden, after Creation Week…https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…”Unformed and Void” (tohu vav bohu in Hebrew) is in the disjunctive form, and doesn’t describe a state of becoming from a previous state of fullness, but as part of a creative process from nothing (ex nihilo)… https://creation.com/an-atypical-atheist-plus-just-how…
Link Hudson	I don’t see a problem with a gap theory. And if you aren’t talking about life on earth before the earth was without form and void, I don’t see why a gap is a big issue. But the title is not true. There is a historical non-gap explanation for where demons came from, along the lines of the book fo Enoch. Tertullian said demons were fallen angels and their children.I am not sure what the lost souls issue. If the gap theory is not true, that doesn’t mean no souls are lost. Why would two creation stories point to the gap theory? Are we talking about the two accounts of the creation of man? What does that have to do with the gap theory? Again, there is an alternative theory, that God made lots of men and women, but He made one named Adam who had the breath of life in him, that Eve, created from her, had the breath of life in her, which would explain why Adam called her the mother of all living. But they did die. Maybe Adam did not realize he was dead when he named Eve, or maybe he was thinking of the seed promise.
Peter Fiske	But you should see a problem with The Gap Theory because it isn’t found in Genesis 1, nor in Jeremiah 4, or any other place in the 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament that Genesis compromisers, like the late Finis Dake, try to insert one.The Gap myth was invented by compromising Scottish theologian Thomas Chalmers in the early 19th century in order to try to make the Bible fit with emerging evolutionary ideas of supposed millions of years.https://answersingenesis.org/…/exposing-a-fundamental…/There is a personal side note to this for me, since I heard the Gap Theory as a teenager and immediately recognized that it was an attempt to make Genesis and the Bible fit with evolutionary ideas of millions of supposed years. I left any possibility of winning me to Christ, and for 15 years I wandered in the wilderness of the world, making destructive decisions until I got saved and 30. During that whole time frame, I believed that I was nothing but a highly evolved animal and that there was no Heaven or Hell or any biblical truth whatsoever. The Gap theory is what led me into that destructive path way, and that’s why the Gap Theory must be opposed and destroyed from any vestige of biblical thinking.
Troy Day	Well Link Hudson there is no other way to explain the fall of Lucifer in the whole Bible except with a gap in the story
Peter Fiske	That’s not true Troy, we can explain the fall of Lucifer just fine if one just reads Ezekiel 28:13-15 in context. Not the out of context, false teachings of the Dake Bible, which pushes the unbiblical Gap Theory!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske The thing is ez 28:17 says, ” I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.” There is no reference in Genesis of any kings gazing at the fallen angel. This is in reference to to a time before Gen 1:2.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, why the king of Tyre is cross referenced in Ezekiel 28 with Lucifer.”However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11â€“19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be â€œin Edenâ€ or to be â€œthe anointed cherub who coversâ€ or to be â€œon the holy mountain of God.â€ Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11â€“19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12â€“13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase â€œguardian cherubâ€ possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who â€œguardedâ€ Godâ€™s presence. Pride led to Satanâ€™s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satanâ€™s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).”https://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html
Link Hudson	Why not? You could say Lucifer fell the day Adam was created. The Muslims may have got their theory from somewhere else after all. I don’t know the day they think Satan rebelled, but in their story, he refused to worship (or bow down to?) Adam because he only wanted to do so toward God. Their story paints Satan in a sympathetic light, which sip retty interesting considering. But it does show that people can invent altnerate theories quite easily. When you say that there is no other way to explain, people can easily come up with alternate theories, and in many cases there are old established theories to the contrary.
Peter Fiske	Except that Adam was created perfect, and if one reads Genesis 1 and 2, God proclaims his creation is good. It wasn’t until sometime after Creation Week that Lucifer was so enamored by his own power and beauty, that wickedness was found in him. If one reads Ezekiel 28:13-15, and then the parallel chapter and Isaiah 14, you get a clear picture of how Lucifer fell, how we get demons, and the origin of evil.
Peter Fiske	We don’t care what the Qu’ran teaches about Satan, since it’s a false religious text of a false and pagan religion. There is no specific time given for when Lucifer fell during the time Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. Like so much of that genre of biblical literature, a lot is left out in terms of details, and therefore theologians and historians have had to do a lot of inferring based on in context exegesis of given scripture. Since Adam was 130 when Seth was born (Genesis 4:25) and that Seth was given as a replacement for Abel (Genesis 5:2-3). So we know that the first murder recorded in scripture happened before Adam turned 130. We also know that in accordance with Genesis 3, the fall of Adam and Eve happened after iniquity or evil was found in the heart of Lucifer Ezekiel 28:15. We also know that this happened after the fact of Lucifer being the anointed cherub in the Garden of Eden as recorded in Ezekiel 28:13. So what we see here is a timeline of events that happened between the 6th day of Creation in Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) until the fall of Adam and Eve, or tempted by Satan who either took the form of a serpent, or possessed a serpent to speak through it. Those events happened in Genesis 3. The inference that we take away from Genesis 425 is that all of these events occurred before Adam was 130! Therefore it’s logical to conclude that this sequence of events occurred within a hundred years of Creation Week. This has profound theological ramifications since Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 describe a time before Genesis 3 but after Genesis 1!
Troy Day	Because as Ezek. says posted above he was already there in the garden when Adam was created. Read above first
Peter Fiske	Of course Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, and as verse 13 of chapter 28 tells us in the Book of Ezekiel, Lucifer was still a good angel before in verse 15 iniquity or wickedness was found in him. Either you have a fundamental misunderstanding of scripture here, or you’re deliberately bending the word of God, I don’t know which!
Link Hudson	Troy Day That leaves 5 days beforehand to fall. I am not saying that is a great explanation, but if your position is NO alternative explanation, it’s hardly defensible.Could there be a heavenly Eden like the heavenly temple in Hebrews?Btw, equating Lucifer with Satan is also tradition, very strongly established in Christianity. Is the Biblical connection really clear?Btw, the first reference I have found to the Hebrew word for Satan is in the passage where the angel opposes Balaam. And I mean first in terms of order of Protestant Bibles, not that the Balaam account necessarily was written before Job.
Peter Fiske	((equating Lucifer with Satan is also tradition))No it sound theology, as Ezekiel 28 describes that Lucifer was a good angel in the Garden of Eden until iniquity or wickedness was found in him. This was the basis for him tempting Adam and Eve, and causing send to be brought into the world through the disobedience of Adam. (Romans 5:12).
Link Hudson	Peter Fiske how many angels fell?
Peter Fiske	Link Hudson, Hebrews 12:22 tells us that 1/3 of the angels fell with Lucifer.https://www.gotquestions.org/one-third-angels.html
Link Hudson	Peter Fiske Okay, so out of all the angels that fell, why would Lucifer have to be Satan?
Link Hudson	Also, this passage is against the king of Tyre. The passage says he is a man. What do you think of taking the part about Eden, the pipes, etc. as spiritual, metaphorical language about a real human king, instead of taking the part about a human king as somehow allegorical for Satan? Do you see the issue with taking a passage about a king and saying it is about Satan when it isn’t explicit and other passages do not do it?Taking this passage about Lucifer as being about Satan rests largely on Jewish and Christian tradition. I am not saying the tradition is wrong, but how can you prove the assumption exegetically?
Peter Fiske	Link Hudson, it is commonly understood by biblical Scholars and laypersons alike that Lucifer and Satan are the same being. Lucifer simply means ”lightbearer” [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/lucifer], while Satan means ” adversary”. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/satan/Hebrew Scholar Dr Doug Hamp: “When Did Satan Fall? The Angelic Domain – Before Genesis 1:1 or After? Gap Theory Refuted”…https://youtu.be/f1p0so5jVw4
Link Hudson	Peter Fiske commonly understood…but is it taught in scripture?
Peter Fiske	Yes it is Link Hudson, why don’t you read the links that I posted and listen to the video as well.
Peter Fiske	Link Hudson: (( of all the angels that fell, why would Lucifer have to be Satan))Well, if you read Ezekiel 28:13-15 you will see that Lucifer was indeed in the Garden of Eden, that he was the anointed cherub of the Garden of Eden, which means he was very likely an archangel like the archangel Michael. The idea that Lucifer isn’t Satan is a relatively recent phenomenon in compromise theology, and it’s easily refuted with an in-depth, and in context comparative Bible study.
Gary Micheal Epping	According to many scientific dating methods, this planet earth is many millions of years old. However, from biblical chronology we can calculate that the span of time from the creation of Adam and Eve to the present is about 6,000 years. As a result, most people who believe the Bible is divinely inspired are divided into two main groups based on their explanation for the apparent contradiction. The “young earth creationist” group generally believes that all of God’s creation took place only 6,000 years ago. Many of them believe that God made things to appear to be older but that one must believe in a 6,000-year-old earth if he or she believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God.The “old earth creationist” group believes the Bible allows for a long time interval between verse 1 and verse 2 of Genesis 1, “The earth was without form, and void.” Both groups have a large group of followers, and their positions are credible and different views on the creation story. A recent gallup poll (http://news.gallup.com/…/belief-creationist-view-humans…) shows young earth creationism ties for the leading view, along with the old earth view that an ancient process was guided by a divine hand. In addition, the AOG (http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/…/ejonline_201002…) finds that Young Earth Creationism has approximately 35 percent of faculty and students at Assemblies of God institutions of higher learning embrace this view. Old Earth Creationist has approximately 31 percent of students and faculty at Assemblies of God colleges and universities Assemblies of God hold this view. Evolutionary Creationist has about 16 percent of faculty and students at Assemblies of God schools hold this view. These results show that a OEC for pentecostals is a valid and highly held option about creation, which follows the guidelines of the Scofield Bible, Dake Bible, and other guidelines. Just because YEC proponents on this thread do not like OEC stance does not alter the fact it is a position that aligns with the belief that the heavens and earth are billions of years old.
Peter Fiske	Gary, I teach a course on geophysics, and we include the radiometric dating processes in that particular chapter. There are approximately 19 techniques, including radiocarbon dating, which are all similar in the way they work. The problem is that your assumptions must be altered in order to assume that the results always worked correctly. Radiometric dating is based on ratios between parent and daughter elements. Certain ratio rates are known, and are measured in what we call the half life of a substance. For example the half life of carbon 14 is 5,750 years. This means that it takes that long for a particular parent substance like carbon 14 to deteriorate into 50% of its daughter substance, in this case carbon 12. The problem with this line of thinking is simple, one is assuming and isolated system and where these decay ratios can perfectly manifest them self. Nature doesn’t work in a picture perfect way like that, since everything in nature is an open thermodynamic system, which literally means that energy and matter can flow through a control volume, in this case a mineralized specimen that is dated buy a particular radiometric dating technique. With the flow of water and or heat, parent elements can be washed out of a particular specimen that makes the entire ratio look older than it is. These skewed results are why radiometric dating isn’t a exact science, and is only taught to undergraduate science students as gospel truth in order to push the evolutionary idea of deep time or millions of years.http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/dating2.htmlConsidering the rest of your post, it isn’t a stretch to say that you really have little to no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to radiometric dating, and even worse, your bending the scriptural age of the Earth, which is the literal teaching of God’s Word that the Earth is only thousands of years old, to the unproven and questionable ideas of secular fundamentalists who don’t even share any scriptural biblical beliefs or understanding.
Gary Micheal Epping	All of the main tests, including radiometric dating, are well known to be accurate to +- 1%,
Link Hudson	There are also old earth creationists who believe the creation days represent epochs.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, (( all of the main tests including radiometric dating accurate to + – 1%))Okay, well the only real objective dating methodology that is used by evolutionist geo scientists is radiometric, of which there are approximately 20 differing techniques using theoretically at least, the same methodology. I think you’re confusing radiocarbon with other radiometric dating techniques like, Potassium-Argon (K-Ar). Nevertheless, you don’t backup your claim with any citation. Assertions don’t work in a semi scholarly debate, as we’re supposed to be having as you need to provide evidence for your claim. Secondly, your claim is the baseless especially when you consider a particular incident in the dating of the lava dome that developed after the last Mount St. Helens eruption. Using K-Ar dating methods on basaltic dacite rock collected from the St. Helens lava dome in 1996, geologists Dr. Andrew Snelling and Dr. Steve Austin, dated the dacite specimens for a radiometric age. Since the lava dome was less than 20 years old, the, the K-Ar radiometric ratio should have reflected that fact has almost no Argon (Ar) should’ve been found. However, lots of excessive argon (Ar) was found in the samples dated indicating a extremely skewed and erroneous age of supposedly thousands to millions of years when the date should have come back virtually nil considering that the dacite specimen was less than 20 years old.(Austin, S.A., â€œExcess Argon Within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St Helens Volcano,â€ CEN Tech. J. 10(3):335â€“343, 1996)
Peter Fiske	Link Hudson, yeah that’s right, and old Earth creationism, of which the Gap theory is part of, is the heretical compromise of Genesis with evolutionary ideas of millions of supposed years.
Gary Micheal Epping	The primary basis of the Old Earth Creationist view comes from Genesis 1:1-2, which states, â€œIn the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.â€ Genesis 1:1 refers to God’s initial perfect creation. Everything that God made was beautiful, there was no sin anywhere. Verse two, on the other hand, shows that a great catastrophe occurred that caused the earth to become in a chaotic state through the judgment of God. According to the Gap Theory, the formless and void state, as recorded in Genesis 1:2, is in direct contrast to the perfect initial creation. Something happened between the first two verses of Genesis to cause the earth to become desolate and uninhabitable after having been made perfect. â€œFORMâ€ has a strong # H1414, to-hoo, which means to lie waste; a desolation(of surface) that is desert; a worthless thing; in vain; empty. (See attachment for details). â€œVOIDâ€ has a strong # H922, bÃ´hÃ», which means From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a {vacuity} that {is} (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: – {emptiness} void. (see attachment for details) These two words, without form and void, are only used in one other place, Jer 4:23, â€œI beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.â€ â€œDARKNESS,â€ has a strong # H2822, chÃ´shek, which means From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively {misery} destruction, {death} ignorance {sorrow} wickedness: – dark ({-ness}) {night} obscurity. Gen 1:2 indicates that judgement had been rendered on the earth before the 6 days of creation. Darkness as H2822, in the Bible is often associated with death and sin. So, where did the sin come from if not from Adam. Before the destruction in this verse, God had made the earth in perfection as described in verse 1. The garden of Eden was present in the first creation and was under the stewardship of Lucifer. It was recreated again in the six days with Adam replacing Lucifer as steward. Lucifer as an angel of God, however commited the 1st sin in Godâ€™s universe, Ez 28:12-15, â€œOn the day that you were created they were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you SINNED; Therefore I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, that they may see you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries.â€ One verse here clearly shows that Lucifer SINNED, and was casted down to the ground. The Bible tells us, Death is the result of sin. â€œFor the wages of sin is death,â€ Romans 6:23. God placed judgment not only on Lucifer, but also on the earth which resulted in the destruction of the earth that is shown in Gen 1:2. Old Earth Creationist view is therefore fully substantiated. It conforms to the original heavens and earth being created in verse 1, with the earth being laid waste in verse 2, only to be created again starting in verse 3. Even though YEC proponents donâ€™t like this stance, and try to damn it as heresy, it is a position that is substantiated in the Bible. It is much more realistic that saying that God created the earth with fossils, skeletons, oil, bones in the earth, with Him changing the speed of light to make a young earth look old. God is not a deceiver, and had no reason to try and make a young earth look old. Old Earth Creationism tells a better story about Creation.
Thomas Henry Jr.	You really read into Genesis 1:2
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas Henry Jr. Basically I did not refer to Scofield or Dake’s bible but used the Strong concordance to look up the meaning of the words in that verse, which indicate judgment for sin in the earlier era.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping those verse donâ€™t imply what you stated. A child taking playdoe out of a container has clay that is without form and void. There were nothing that cause the world to become void. The error is thinking God created the world fully form and thatâ€™s not what Genesis 1:1 implies
Gary Micheal Epping	Strong words for form, void, and darkness mean destruction, wickedness, ruin, and death. Darkness in the Bible is associated with sin. Not my words but from strongs.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, simply quoting without any citations isn’t much of a case Gary. First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin. You don’t believe me? Read Deuteronomy 4:2 on how God feels about altering the true context of his holy Word!
Peter Fiske	Thomas Henry Jr., I know, right?! The ends that some who believe in erroneous and false doctrine will go to in order to just try to be right!
Gary Micheal Epping	I never mentioned any doctrine, but used Strong’s to define the meaning of those words like a student of the bible should. If you don’t Like it look the words up yourself.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, your entire understanding and view of scripture is wrong, as your foundation, which is in the Book of Genesis, is wrong. The Bible teaches in Genesis, and in Luke and Matthew, that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. The age of the Earth is important because this is what the true Biblical context teaches, and that if one altars the implied doctrine open Earth that is less than 10,000 years old, then one opens up the possibility of reinterpreting scripture in the light of modern evolutionary thinking which needs millions of years in order to survive. It isn’t necessary to compromise Genesis to appease evolutionists!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske the citations are from strongs and the bible. Can’t you read. Mule headed as ever.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, you take scripture and citations out of context in order to maintain a false doctrine of millions of supposed years and an equally false and mythical Gap.
Gary Micheal Epping	Can you not look the words up in strong s for gen 1:2 like a good theologian should. The meanings indicate judgment from God.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping there were no judgement in Genesis 1:2
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas henry Jr then what do you make of the meanings from Strong’s for passage? Maybe you should complain to strong s rather than me, since that is where the information came from.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping you are reading into Strongâ€™s but here is the screenshots
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Strongâ€™s doesnâ€™t mention sin as the source of the chaos
Thomas Henry Jr.	Void
Thomas Henry Jr.	Darkness
Thomas Henry Jr.	Looks like you are reading into the text
Thomas Henry Jr.	Was H1961 hayah. Has several meaning and In Genesis 1:2 it does not have the meaning of becoming void because of sin
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Again you are reading your eisegesis into the text
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas henry Jr darkness is associated with sin throughout the bible.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping actually no and I didnâ€™t say it was. Iâ€™m black and conservative so am I associated with sin? Since darkness is always associated with sin according to your baseless opinion?
Thomas Henry Jr.	Darkness is simply the absence of light
Gary Micheal Epping	I said darkness or the absence of light as used in the Bible.
Thomas Henry Jr.	All because light is missing does not there is sin. One can lack illumination and be in darkness and yet not be in Sin
Thomas Henry Jr.	We look through a glass darkly I believe Paul says in Corinthian yet we arenâ€™t in sin because of that
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas henry Jr I am not reading into the meanings. The information I posted earlier are directly from the complete meanings from strings. I am on a cell and don’t have access to the screen shots. Will post later.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping just posted from Strongâ€™s from the app on my iPhone no need for further posting. I read very well thanks.
Thomas Henry Jr.	1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am knownDark here doesnâ€™t mean sin
Thomas Henry Jr.	Any honest student of the Word knows that in all the many times darkness is mentioned in scripture it is not synonymous with sin.
Thomas Henry Jr.	The word darkness is found 142 times in the KJV. Majority of those times it isnâ€™t a reference to sin. Leave the racist Dakes Bible alone please
Gary Micheal Epping	It is often referred is as sin. I will post later from my computer. I have purposely not referred to dake or Scofield to avoid comments like yours.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping again darkness is not synonymous with sin in all of its 142 mentions
Gary Micheal Epping	Darkness as used in gen 1:2 is h2822 and is only used 70 times, often referring to sin.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping It does not refer mostly to SIN
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping i can post all 77 verses to show that you are in error
Peter Fiske	Yes it is Gary, and from the beginning, and Genesis 3 we see how Adam the first man, brought sending to the World by succumbing to Satan’s temptation. Remember in Ezekiel 28:13-15, while he was in the Garden of Eden as the anointed cherub, iniquity and evil were found inside Lucifer, and he became Satan after that. So sin entered creation through the initial act of disobedience by Adam and Eve as told in Genesis 3, as a result as Romans 5:12 tells us, our world is soaked with sin. Nowhere in any of the scriptures does it say there was a pre-Adamite world where Lucifer and the Fallen Angels who became demons fell.
Gary Micheal Epping	Thomas Henry Jr. I found the problem. In my original post I accidently posted the strong definition for darkness twice, with the first instance placing it where the definition for FORM should be. I have corrected it above, and also placed an attachment for the three words, form, void, and darkness. The statement stands that Gen 1:2 shows judgment for the original sin of Lucifer in the previous era.
Thomas Henry Jr.	That is eisegesis
Gary Micheal Epping	In regard to darkness (or the absent of light) , the following verses relate it to SIN. Romans 1:21 Verse ConceptsFor even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Matthew 6:23Verse Concepts”But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!Luke 22:53Verse Concepts”While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.”John 3:19-20″This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.Romans 13:12Verse ConceptsThe night is almost gone, and the day is near Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.2 Corinthians 6:14Verse ConceptsDo not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?Ephesians 5:11Verse ConceptsDo not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;1 John 1:5-6This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;2 Corinthians 4:4Verse Conceptsin whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.Ephesians 4:18Verse Conceptsbeing darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;Psalm 82:5Verse ConceptsThey do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.John 12:35Verse ConceptsSo Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.1 John 2:9Verse ConceptsThe one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.1 John 2:11Verse ConceptsBut the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.Job 3:3-6″Let the day perish on which I was to be born, And the night which said, ‘A boy is conceived.’ “May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it. “Let darkness and black gloom claim it; Let a cloud settle on it; Let the blackness of the day terrify it. read more.2 Samuel 22:29Verse Concepts”For You are my lamp, O LORD; And the LORD illumines my darkness.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Gary Micheal Epping you do understand that it doesnâ€™t mean sin in all places
Troy Day	SIN is SIN
Gary Micheal Epping	Troy Day Yes, and ‘the wages of sin is death,’ as well as judgment which was already rendered for Lucifer and his angel when Satan was in Eden.
Peter Fiske	Gary, God judged Lucifer and the angels that he tempted in Isaiah 14, and as Ezekiel 28 tells us, the initial discovery of wickedness and send it Lucifer was made in the one and only Garden of Eden that was created during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). This brings to mind the question I’ve been trying to get you to answer now for more than a day. Where in scripture does it even imply let alone mention there was another Garden of Eden and a supposed and equally unbiblical pre-Adamite world?
John Duncan	Amen the GAP theory is the most plausible explanation.
Peter Fiske	No it’s not John Duncan, there’s no scriptural basis for a supposed gap in Genesis 1 at all.
Troy Day	So Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley how would this work in such a false theory? Thomas Henry Jr.Satan created on day 5 (before day 6) and boom in one short instance he sins, falls, becomes God’s enemy and by day 6 is ready to tempt Adam – yeah right BTW forget satan – when were all other ANGELS created?
Thomas Henry Jr.	There is no reason for Satan to sin until he sees man interact with God. 100 years after eden Satan falls and deceives Eve and mankind falls.
Troy Day	But the BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 of the new creation â€œWhere were you when I laid the earthâ€™s foundation â€¦ and all the angels shouted for joy?â€ (Job 38:4,7).
Thomas Henry Jr.	Troy Day that doesnâ€™t say day one. You read into that text really good there
Troy Day	as I said above – BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1
Thomas Henry Jr.	Troy Day i donâ€™t see day one in that text
Thomas Henry Jr.	4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?No where does it say day one. It took God 6 days to lay the foundations and prepare it for mankind by the close of the 6 day.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Saying Day One â€” you are reading into the text
Thomas Henry Jr.	Eisegesis at its best!!!!
Thomas Henry Jr.	Hebrews 1:14 saysEnglish Standard VersionAre they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvationSo if Angels were created for us then there is no need for them before creation. Do with Lucifer walking in Eden on the 6 day makes sense. Angels were created just before the creation of Adam (mankind).
Thomas Henry Jr.	Hebrews 1:13 tells us the THEY are angels.
Troy Day	as I said above – BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 right here â€œWhere were you when I laid the earthâ€™s foundation â€¦ and all the angels shouted for joy?â€ (Job 38:4,7).
Peter Fiske	Troy Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 tells us about Satan and the angels he tempted , how they fell. Ezekiel 28:13 reminds us that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden as the anointed cherub, until in verse 15 when wickedness was found in him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Thomas Henry Jr.	Troy Day that doesnâ€™t say that. Why are you read into the text.
Thomas Henry Jr.	Troy Day i posted the entire text and that text doesnâ€™t say that.
Gary Micheal Epping	Yes. In such a short period of time, Lucifer would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he were cast out before he could use them? Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste. In the short period that Peter describes, Lucifer would not have gotten to use these talent either.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, since you love to quote the heavy KJV English prose, do you think that God speaks KJV English in heaven? Is that the holy language?
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, I see you made another brief reference to a supposed Eden before Eden. Please tell us where this mythical Eden before Eden is found in Scripture, let alone the physical evidence of its remains!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske I guess you prefer the Queen James Bible instead?
Peter Fiske	Gary, are you really trying to be funny or insulting or both? You know that the QJB is a gay-friendly, revised version of the Bible, don’t you?https://creation.com/wicked-bibleSomeone who depends upon the antiquated English King James Version for their Bible knowledge is at best, at a huge disadvantage when it comes to properly interpreting the word of God. Whether you know it or not there are modern translations that are every bit as good as the KJV available! I personally prefer the NIV, but the NKJV and the ESV are two good translations as well. What is astonishing to me is that false teachers seem to have a preference for the KJV, like Dake, like Flat-Earth false prophets Rob Skiba, and cultic KJV-Onlyists.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske I thought you liked other translations? How about this one?
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, other translations that are valid and credible, not crackpot heretical mistranslations (like the New World Translation [Jehovah’s Witnesses], or the homosexual-friendly QJB)that teach false doctrine disguised as scripture.One might ask what your sexual orientation is since you brought this topic up?!
Gary Micheal Epping	Is that the NIVI edition you like?
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan, seems to prefer since it’s so easy to misquote and misrepresent due to the antiquated and out-of-date English prose. https://bible.org/…/why-i-do-not-think-king-james-bible…Flat-earthism false teachers like Rob Skiba also prefer the KJV due to its easily misunderstood English that allows them to mistranslate and take out of context verses that seem to indicate a flat stationary Earth, according to hyper-literal out of context interpretations of scripture.http://robschannel.com/spherical-or-circular-flat-earthApparently false doctrines can arise easily from the use of out of context and outdated words and phrases, which 400 year old English unfortunately is.
Thomas Henry Jr.	If you insist Angels were created before creation itself, then according to Pastor David Guzik and other commentators he didnâ€™t fall until AFTER CREATION WAS FINISHED.I still maintain Angels were needed until day 6. And the fall happened almost 100 years after creation
Troy Day	Now how is Pastor David Guzil and why should we listen to him? It was not so according to pastor Dake and many other pastors
Thomas Henry Jr.	Why should I listen to you my friend? He is a Pastor who wrote commentary on scripture.
Troy Day	You should not You should search and study Scriptures for your self. I am simply pointing to the resource We should also NOT listen to Pastor David Guzik because he states NOT to have any formal Bible College or seminary training https://enduringword.com/about/david-guzik/
Thomas Henry Jr.	Troy Day 1. Kenneth Hagan had students sign up for an uncredited program.2. Lack of a formal Bible college or seminary degree is not a reason to not listen to anyone. The first scholar in any field was never trained in that field of study formally 3. You make to many assumptions here. I study for myself but there is still according to scripture wisdom among many counselors.4. The resource here isnâ€™t flawed. Even God uses a rooster and a donkey. I think he can use a preacher without a formal education.5. Judging by the eisegesis I seen in here lately. There is a major need for a study of the biblical Languages and how to properly interpret scriptureâ€” biblical hermeneutics.6. Lastly Pastor Guzik is a student of the Calvary Chapel movement founded by Chuck Smith which has produce some very fine expository preachers.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Peter you are worse than a knat in the summer time. No one commented about the KJV above. Out of the blue, you saw I used that version in a single post and it gave you a chance to start polluting the tread with your anti-KJV propaganda. Evidently, you have not noticed that I use a variety of Bible versions when I post. Troy has already warned you to stop spamming people. Why don’t you listen and stop.
Gary Micheal Epping	Why not listen to someone like Billy Graham who said, “Yes, the Bible tells us that the angels were witnesses to the creation of the world, which indicates they were created long before that great event. God asked Job, â€œWhere were you when I laid the earthâ€™s foundation â€¦ and all the angels shouted for joy?â€ (Job 38:4,7). https://billygraham.org/…/when-were-the-angels-created-3/
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske In regard to your ‘Eden before Eden’ remark, the Garden in Genesis would be in the same place as before the chaos of Gen 1:2, since God’s perfection would be present in both. Also, when the ‘new heaven and a new earth’ (Rev 21:1) are created again after the Tribulation, there will also be a Garden of Eden. Why? Because it is “the garden of the Lord” (Gen 13:10). In any creation of God, there is going to be a garden of the Lord. As to location, most Bible commentaries state that the site of the Garden of Eden was in the Middle East, situated somewhere near where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are today (Genesis 2:8â€“14). However, the worldwide, catastrophic Flood of Noahâ€™s day would have left sediment deposits covering the earth. So no one can know for certain today where the Garden of Eden was originally located. The same would be true of Eden before Gen 1:2. There are simply no remains to be found for Eden. Even if the location could be found, no one could enter as an angel stands guard to keep people out.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, if the entire Earth was covered by water from Lucifer’s flood, it would have completely rearranged any of that supposed pre-Lucifer’s flood world geography, including your ridiculous and mythical Eden before Eden. There is no scriptural mention of an Eden before Eden, you’re just making crap up out of thin air in a fanatical yet feeble attempt to hang-on to the Gap Myth.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, ((Why not listen to someone Like Billy Graham))Because ultimately it isn’t what Billy Graham thinks or says that determines biblical truth, but what God himself says in Genesis 1 – 11 about how and when he created, which nowhere includes a make-believe gap of millions of years designed to make the Bible fit with modern evolutionary ideas of deep-time.”Let God be true and every man a liar.” – Romans 3:4
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Nobody knows anything but you. Maybe the ‘make believe’ story is of your making. Yappers say the the flood covered evidence of where the Eden in Genesis actually is located. If that is true, then the Eden before Gen 1:2 could not be located either.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske By the way, when was water created in Genesis?
Peter Fiske	Thomas Henry Jr. , Kenneth Hagin, Jimmy Swaggart, and Benny Hinn are just three of the theologically ignorant proteges of Finis Jennings Dake and his heretical Dake Bible. It shouldn’t be a surprise when we find out that they vigorously taught false doctrine of the Gap myth right from the Dake Bible.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, can’t you read Genesis 1:1 – 5 for yourself? Day One included the creation of water. What’s so hard about that to understand?
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Where does it say, “And God said let” there be water? The “And God said Let” statement for day 1 begins in Verse 3.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, Genesis 1:1 tells us the general thesis statement in the form of a subject-verb clause, which is that God created the heavens and the Earth. Genesis 1:2 is the adjoining circumstatial clause, or the waw disjunctive, which tells us what was created on the first day of Creation Week.https://creation.com/from-the-beginning-of-the-creation
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, ((Nobody knows anything but you))Another ad hominem, ridiculing my knowledge base in an attempt to discredit my position. I never said I knew all that all, but I know something, and I always tend to back that something up with objective evidence in order to make a sound, logical case. That’s more than Dake does with his wild, irrational and counterintuitive commentaries, and more than you do just rubber stamping them.((The make believe story is if you’re making))Now you’re insulting fact, and of course God’s word which contains factual information about how and when he created. I qualify what I say with evidence from other scripture or science, you on the other hand do neither. If anyone is guilty of making things up out of thin air it’s got to be you and Dake.
Peter Fiske	Troy Day ((the BIBLE specifically says angels were created before Day 1))No the BIBLE doesn’t make that claim! Job 38 tells us that the Angels were present during creation week as God created the Earth! You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, namely the Gap Theory. Compromising Genesis is a serious thing, because Deuteronomy 4:2-3 and Revelation 22:18-19 specifically forbid adding to God’s word, which your misguided reinterpretation of in-context solid exegesis is doing!
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, water was created on Day 1, as the foundational and primordial substance from which all matter in the universe, including the Earth was made.
Gary Micheal Epping	Pete Fiske Yeah, right? A statement that says when, In the beginning, subject-verb, God created, what?, the heavens and the earth. The first verse is a done deal. God is a God of perfection and peace, and did not create what is indicated in Gen 1:2. It was the result of actions that took place on the already created earth from verse 1.
Gary Micheal Epping	Pete Fiske No discrediting your knowledge base, which is nothing more than cut and paste from your young earth creation site. Same stuff posted over and over again, to the point that it sounds like a broken record, and makes one what to puke. No one can carry out a decent discussion on any thread related to creation because you will spam them with a barrage of posts.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, all creative events between Genesis 1:1 and 1:5 occurred on day one of Creation Week.Verse 5 (ESV)…” called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-5.htmThe clear context of scripture is that everything between verses 1 & 5 of Genesis 1 were created on the first calendar of Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) which was 24 hours long! No amount of Gappist sophistry on your part will change that fact.((your knowledge base which is nothing more than cut and paste from young earth creation site))1. My knowledge base exist independently of any website as it is the accumulated knowledge and wisdom of 25 + years of objective study.2. Copying and pasting scholarly articles and/or their links is an accepted part of scholarly or layperson level dialogue. It’s not my fault if you can’t match this level of discourse. My suggestion to you at this point is to get your nose out of the heretical commentaries in the Dake Bible, and do some objective research from Biblical Christian sources that aren’t polluted with false doctrine, of which the mythical Gap theory is perhaps the most insidious.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, as I’ve pointed out and as you refuse to accept simply because you’ve been brainwashed and blinded by Dake’s false doctrines, “unformed and unfilled” (tohu vav bohu in Hebrew) in Genesis 1:2 is a subordinate clause to Genesis 1:1 that describes what was created and the state of the created mass, in this case the Earth. The fact that you don’t even examine and discuss the finer points of the grammatical structure of Genesis 1:1 and 2 indicates that your mind is not only made up, but that it has been seared with an emotional glue forged by your blind allegiance to the late false prophet/teacher, Finis Dake.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Get it through your thick skull, I am not talking about Dake; haven’t referred to him once. You are the only one on here that is constantly talking against Dake with your constant anti spamming. Gen 1:1 is pretty straight forward, and needs none of your finer point. Just read it: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Verse 2 DOES NOT describe what God created or caused, but is a result or effect of chaos. God only creates what is perfection. By your logic, when He created Adam, it would have been needed to first create a sinful chaotic mess before God made Adam in perfection.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, ((Get it through your thick skull))Your logical fallacy is:https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem(( I’m not talking about Dake))The source of your blind allegiance to this false doctrine of the Gap myth is directly proportional to your allegiance to Dake.((Gen 1:1 is pretty straightforward and needs none of your finer point))Yeah and it doesn’t need your extra-biblical eisegesis attached to it either, trying to find a supposed Gap when there is none! The beginning of creation was day 1 of Creation Week, no gap of millions of years is either directly mentioned or indirectly inferred. The fact that you don’t concede to reality of what scripture actually says shows me that you’re committed to this false doctrine as if it were gospel truth. That is delusional zealotry at its most blatant.((Verse 2 DOES NOT describe what God created or caused))Oh YES IT IS! All the events of verse 2 – 5 are the creative events of Day One of Creation Week. The Hebrew ‘tohu vav bohu’ describes the initial state of the Earth on day one, not how Earth was on day one from some bygone, purely fictional primordial pre -Adamic era supposedly millions of years in the past.https://answersingenesis.org/…/can-evolutions-long…/ That’s outright heresy that you are reading into that verse! You ought to be ashamed of yourself repent for dismantling God’s word in such a shameful way just to try to make Genesis look more palatable to evolutionists.((God creates what is perfection))
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske You are the one that predominantly does the name calling for most everyone on here. So, watch your own video.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping , sorry but your the one who started name-calling, I was trying to be civil to you yet you were becoming flagrantly insulting towards me. What goes around comes around!
Troy Day	The BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 right here â€œWhere were you when I laid the earthâ€™s foundation â€¦ and all the angels shouted for joy?â€ (Job 38:4,7).How could have they been there and shouting IF not already created
Link Hudson	It says He created the heavens and the earth, so maybe He created the heavens first, along with it’s contents.
Troy Day	Exactly what GAP theory takes under consideration. Still makes it plausible that there was a fall between v1-2 to cause the tohu-va-bohu destruction of earth
Scotty Searan	Troy Day I am with you on the Gap theory.Can i do a little Speculating?I believe there was a world witb inhabitants and possibly angels or could be humansHebrew1:2 and Hebrews 11:3 makes mention that God created (framed) the worlds.I believe whatever inhabited this earth was destroyed because of a battle where possibility Lucifer in his rebellion destroyed or made havoc of the previous inhabitants Could it possibly be that God outright destroyed the inhabitants of the previous world with a flood because of sin and no one have knowledge of them by a written history, Only God allowing us to maybe catch a glimpse because of the Fossils
Peter Fiske	Scotty Searan, you’re casting your lot in with false teachers when you support the Gap myth. There is no biblical mention of a gap of millions or billions of supposed years in Genesis 1. All the speculation in the world is just that, we must go by the sound exegesis, in context interpretation of Genesis 1 in order to get an accurate picture of Earth history during its first week. God supernaturally created the Earth in 6 – 24 hour days, and he didn’t need any retarded Gap to fit millions of years and in order to try to make Genesis more palatable to evolutionary thinking, which requires millions to billions of years of supposed deep time in order for it to be plausible.
Peter Fiske	Scotty Searan (( could it possibly be that God destroyed the inhabitants of the previous world with a flood because of sin))2 Peter 3 reminds us that God destroyed the pre-flood, that is the antediluvian world that existed between Creation Week of Genesis 1 and the coming of the flood of Noah in Genesis 6 some 1,656 years later. There is no other worldwide flood in world history that explains anything scientifically or biblically.((God allowing us a glimpse because of the Fossils))Now that’s not true, most of the fossils or laid down by Noah’s flood, the only worldwide flood in the history of our planet.https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/If there was a supposed Lucifer’s flood before Creation Week, that supposedly laid down all of the fossils, then the so-called second worldwide flood of Genesis 6, where Noah was commanded by God to build an ark and take two of each kind of living creature upon it, would have literally destroyed all of the fossils in the fossil record as another gigantic catastrophic movement of water over the surface of the Earth for the second time would have pulverized the layers and fossils supposedly left in the first. The fact that we have a fossil record is evidence of only one huge catastrophic Flood event, not too!
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, you’re interpreting ‘tohu waw bohu’ backwards. The phrase is a disjunctive that describes the state of the primordial Earth initially revealed in the first part of Genesis 1:1 and 2.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske You are the one interpreting backwards. The first statement is that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1. Then, the 2nd verse shows there is chaos which God did not create, because He is a creator of perfection and peace. In regard to your call for ‘sound exegesis,’ it needs to be determined why there is chaos in verse 2 before any theory on creation can be developed.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske You reference 2 Pe 3:5-6, “For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished.” The word used her is OLD. If Peter was referring to the creation in days 1-6 of Genesis, he would have used the term NEW or recently created. This is not the case, as he clearly says the world of OLD perished.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, no that’s not right, you’re clinging to and perpetuating false doctrine by continuing to defend a fake Satanic knock off of the Genesis creation narrative. Unformed and unfilled , “Tohu vav bohu” in Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew, is a literary disjunctive, a subjective-verb clause to God creating the heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1:1https://creation.com/from-the-beginning-of-the-creationApparently you don’t know Hebrew grammatical structure very well, as this is the accepted and understood form of Genesis 1:1-5, describing the creative events in sequence on Day 1 of Creation Week.You’re not seeking to use the word of God as your foundation (Psalm 11:3), but like your pseudo-theological icon Dake, you’re seeking the approval of modern evolutionary thinking on the age of the Earth in order to make your scriptural understanding fit with reality, not trying to make reality fit with scripture. Reality fits with scripture, as there’s no independent and objective and foolproof scientific method to determine a supposed 4.6 billion year old age of the Earth. And even if Earth was that age, the need for a God evaporates with long ages of supposed naturalistic processes. Dake, Scofield, and modern day Gappist false teachers are too ignorant to see this point. And their (and your) ignorance is causing division and is harming the cause of Christ!
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, the word old in 2 Peter 3:5 is better defined in the NIV…”But they deliberately forget that LONG AGO by Godâ€™s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water”.Either way, whether you use the archaic KJV phrase “of old”, or more modern and in-style English reference of “long ago”, neither reference is automatically by default referring to a supposed pre-Adamite world of millions of years ago. You do see that don’t you?The Apostle Peter gave us this epistle in the 1st century AD, while the worldwide Flood of Noah was approximately 3,000 to 3,500 years earlier. You can’t be this ignorant to see that from Peter’s perspective in the first century, 3,000 – 3,500 years previous would be considered “of old” or “long ago!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Now the young earth creationist wants argue that that a young earth is now old? Can’t have it both ways.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, you have no powers of perception do you? Didn’t you read my response? I said that the term “long ago” or “of old” doesn’t automatically by default imply millions of years! What part of that don’t you understand?
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske It says, “by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished.” It says the old world perished right? Then in verse 7, “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment..” This is the earth that was created again, which will also be destroyed and re-created in the end times.
Peter Fiske	Correcting Gary Micheal Epping on his unbiblical reinterpretation of 2 Peter 3:5-6 (NIV)…”But they deliberately forget that LONG AGO by Godâ€™s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.”Where are you reading a supposed pre-Adamite world and or and equally mythical Lucifer’s flood in that passage?”The scope (of the Genesis Flood) was global, and so severe that the earth was, in effect, reversed to its state on Day 2, before God created dry landâ€”the whole earth was covered with water. This is strongly stated by 2 Peter 3:6, which says that the kosmos was destroyed in the Flood, pointing to its global extent:”https://creation.com/nt-global-flood”2 Peter 3:5â€“6. Peter is criticizing uniformitarianismâ€”the concept that the rate of geological change today has always been the same: ‘All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.'”In opposing this view, Peter reminds his readers that scoffers deliberately ignore two eventsâ€”the Creation and the Floodâ€”which were unique in earth history.”Peter refers to this same Flood of Noahâ€™s day in 1 Peter 3:20 and 2 Peter 2:4â€“5. In fact, there is no reference to a Luciferian Flood anywhere in Scripture.”https://answersingenesis.org/…/gap-theory/closing-the-gap/ The term “long-ago”/ “of old” [KJV], doesn’t automatically imply a supposed pre-Adamite world! Nowhere outside of Satan’s twisted mind, or his false prophets and pawns, like Finis Dake, does such unbiblical eisegesis exist!
Link Hudson	One can believe there was or may have been a gap between Genesis 1:1 and the rest of the creation without believing the world was populated before God said, “Let there be light”.
Troy Day	Gary John Ricky One thing non-gappers (we will just call them plainly yappers) cannot explain is the tohu-va-bohu earth without form and void What caused that? Certainly NOT God’s beautiful act of creation
Thomas Henry Jr.	That is easily explained and has been
Troy Day	YET With all the attempts here it still has not been explaining for over a week now
Thomas Henry Jr.	Actually it was. The problem is we are quoting scripture while you keep forcing a day one on Job thatâ€™s not even there my friend
Link Hudson	Do you have another creation God made to compare it to to demonstrate that God doesn’t create things in stages, or start out with someone that is without form and void?
Link Hudson	Why would tge earthbeing without form and void at creation have to be seen as a problem to be answered?
Ricky Grimsley	Link Hudson because Isaiah says that created the world â€œnot to be voidâ€
Thomas Henry Jr.	Without form and void does not equal destruction because of sin. That was God starting with a lump of clay and forming it into the Earth ðŸŒ so that it could be Eden/paradise for Adam and Eve.
Link Hudson	Ricky Grimsley and if He hada plan tofill it?
Ricky Grimsley	Of course he had plans to fill it. But it was already filled with other things. but man. Man he had to create from dirt but a other things were said to â€œcome forthâ€. It also depends on if make a distinction between â€œmadeâ€ or â€œ create.
Peter Fiske	Absolutely Thomas! There never was a pre-Adamic world destroyed by a mythical Lucifer’s flood.https://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human…
Peter Fiske	Of course Ricky Grimsley, He didn’t create the world to be void, or un-populated. But all that Isaiah affirms is that God created a planet teeming with life. Where do you read in a supposed pre-Adamic earth??
Ricky Grimsley	Then why is it void in genesis 1:2?
Troy Day	Would God crate something void and imperfect?
Link Hudson	Troy Day He made man.
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, yappers, your logical fallacy is: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominemTohu waw bohu (unformed and unfilled) is a disjunctive, in that it is a circumstantial clause that follows the subject and verb clause or thesis of Genesis 1 in verse 1. It seems that you don’t know what you’re talking about.((What caused that?))Why God did of course, but not in the way that you think. He created the Earth out of a unorganized mess of water, that would be liquid hydrogen and oxygen. In fact he created all the universe out of that primordial mass. That was the first creative act of Day 1 of Creation as Week.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, the “void” in Genesis 1:2, the Hebrew word “bohu”, means the Earth was empty, unfilled not solid yet and purely made of liquid water. This happened on Day One of Creation Week. You don’t have to suck up to evolutionists who don’t believe in the Bible anyway by trying to make Genesis fit with evolutionary thinking. Genesis stands on its own without any aid from a supposed gap of millions of years to try to make scripture sound more sophisticated. The actual opposite effect happens as you destroy the foundations by which all biblical Doctrine is built upon, including the reason why Jesus had to come in the first place. Deep-time/ billions of years interpretation for the age of the Earth makes God out to be a liar, and as Romans 3:4 tells us, it’s men not to God that lies!
Ricky Grimsley	The earth was covered by water but the whole earth wasnâ€™t composed of water. Thatâ€™s silly. He moved the waters to let the land that was cover appear. It was already there under Luciferâ€™s flood.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, Genesis 1:2 is a subordinate clause to Genesis 1:1, which says God created everything in the beginning. Genesis 1:2 specifies the Earth as it was for the land appeared, which was a primordial mass of water. Genesis 1:5 clearly tells us that at the end of the first Day of Creation (bounded by in the evening and morning) during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31), that these were the creative events of the first calendar day!http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-5.htmThere is no literary structure in Genesis 1 indicating a previous chaotic state of punishment, and then God supposedly re-creating. That’s heretical false doctrine read into the text of Genesis 1!
Troy Day	Job states clearly WHEN God was creating earth, the angels were already there rejoicing. Meaning they were created prior before earth. It doesnt matter if its day 1 5 6 What matters is that in Gen 1:1 the angels were already created
Peter Fiske	No that’s not true, you’re misreading Job 38. The angels, when God had created very early in Creation Week, were rejoicing during the week of Creation. Remember, there are 168 hours is in 7 literal days. The angels had plenty of time to rejoice within 168 hours!
Troy Day	No I am not misreading It is pretty clear Gen 1:1 says God created earth Job says the angels were there when earth was createdThis means the angles were there when earth was created in Gen 1:1 and it is very plausible that lucifer and 1/3 angels were fallen before Gen 1:2
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, Job 38:4-7 clearly says that the angels were present during most of Creation Week to see the creation being carried out on a daily basis. There’s no need to try to insert their creation before Genesis 1:1, just so you can gratify yourself as a follower Finis Jennings Dake, who was a false teacher!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Stop acting like you are stupid, because you are very cunning and clever. A foundation by its very definition (underlying basis, starting point, beginning) goes in before anything else. Certainly, none of the events of the 6 days could take place until after the foundation was laid. Even the formation of the waters and earth in gen 1:1 could not be started until the very foundation on which it all stands was completed. An unbiased reading of Job 38:6-7 (“Who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”) reveals that God was the one that sank the cornerstone as part of the foundation prior to the creation of the earth. This was definitely before Gen 1:1. And who was watching Him? Yes, all of his angels. Pure and simple, the angels had to be created before the creation of the earth in order to watch God lay the cornerstone. Don’t try to twist and alter scripture Peter.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, like I’ve said before I don’t have a problem with individuals wanting to read the KJV because it’s poetic and flowery in its presentation of scripture, however it’s Satan’s favorite translation in the modern era. You see, most ordinary people who don’t understand proper grammar and in-context biblical exegesis, don’t realize that history shows that languages, most notably English, has changed considerably since both 1611 and 1769 (when the KJV 1 and KJV 2 were published respectively). This has created somewhat of a problem for modern-day students of the Bible who prefer the KJV and their attempt to understand deep truths embedded in Scripture. This is why KJV English is confusing to say the least: https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.htmlI watched the Dake interview on old PTL Club from the early 70s when he claimed that God gave him the entire Bible in King James English. Really? Why would God want us to understand deep truth in scripture using 400 year old outdated English? He wouldn’t! This proves conclusively to me that the spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God! God is not the author of chaos and confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 ESV [http://biblehub.com/esv/1_corinthians/14.htm]) but Satan is!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske Use whatever bible version you want, but a foundation must be laid before work starts on the structure, in this case the earth. The angels were watching as the cornerstone was laid in preparation for the creation of the earth.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, stop trying to dance around my refutation of your previous poorly thought-out point. There is no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap that you (and other misguided Gappists) reading into the text that isn’t there, and never was there!
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske You did not refute anything. Maybe the yappers ought to change their name to old earth creationists. oops! Sorry that name has already been taken.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping ((yappers))A canned hillbilly come back? Those of us who don’t invent imaginary gaps that don’t exist in scripture (or time) just to please evolutionists are called Biblical Christians, who adhere to the true and in context interpretation of the Word of God, minus Satanic insertion like the Gap myth.
Gary Micheal Epping	Peter Fiske No you make up stories about fossils, bones, skeletons, oil all being part of the creation. Talk about a pixy dust story.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping, I’m not making stories up about anything, as fossils ( which are mineralized remains, including bones, of dead organisms), and oil, are indeed all part of the Saga of Creation in that during the Noah’s worldwide Flood, all these things were catastrophically deposited all over the Earth. As far as magic pixie dust goes, sprinkle billions of years into the equation, and you do away with the need for any worldwide flood, the mythical one that Finis Dake incoherently babbles about, or the real one that occurred in Genesis 6-9.
Ricky Grimsley	Cmon Pete Peter Fiske it says they sang when he laid the cornerstone. The corner is first isnâ€™t it? Job 38:6-7 KJVS[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; [7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 doesn’t say that the angels were created before Genesis 1, it says that the angels were present during Creation Week to watch God do his creative acts and to give him glory.
Ricky Grimsley	Peter Fiske no it says they were there when laid the foundations and the cornerstone. That means they were already there when he started. The cornerstone is first.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 says that the angels were present during the creation of the Earth. That reference is the same as “when the foundations were laid”. So when were the foundations laid? During the 168 hours of Creation Week! That means the angels were created sometime in that 168 hour span, and that would give them plenty of time to sing and rejoice at what they were seeing.
Ricky Grimsley	It says they saw the cornerstone laid. Cornerstone is first. They were there before 1:2
Ricky Grimsley	Look Peter Fiske. Jesus himself would have to tell me the earth is 6000 years old. Iâ€™ve been reading the Bible Iâ€™m fully convinced in some version of the gap theory.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, John 1:1 tells us that Jesus is God, and scripture tells us that it is. breathed and inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17). That means that all Doctrine in Genesis, which never mentions a gap of millions of supposed years, but doesn’t eat indicate that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, is actually Jesus talking to you about the age of the Earth being less than 10,000 yours! Why is that so hard to understand?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 doesn’t talk about an imaginary time before Genesis 1:1-2. Where does it say that in Scripture? Where is it specifically mentioned, let alone implied?
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, you really should read something beside the KJV.https://bible.org/article/changes-kjv-1611-illustration
Ricky Grimsley	I read the esv
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, the ESV doesn’t improve the chances for there being a gap in Genesis 1, in fact it just makes it even more remote since we’re reading Modern English and can clearly see a series of creative processes beginning in Genesis 1:1-5 the first day of Creation Week.
Ricky Grimsley	Save your breath. We both see each other as blind here.
Peter Fiske	Ricky, remember you told me that you listen to people who have college degrees? Well, now’s your big chance to prove your words true! There is no Gap in Genesis 1, there doesn’t need to be because we don’t have to try to fit evolutionary based deep time into scripture. Dinosaurs, fossils, all the geologic layers found on Earth fit nicely into the model of a giant catastrophic worldwide flood event in which God told Noah that he would destroy a sin – saturated world as told in Genesis 6-9.
Ricky Grimsley	I listened to you. Iâ€™ve heard it all when I was a kid. I reject your claims.
Peter Fiske	What claims did you hear when you work a kid Ricky? So are you saying that you believe in evolution and millions of years instead of God creating the heavens and the Earth as he says he did in less than 10,000 years ago?
Ricky Grimsley	No I donâ€™t believe in evolution.
Troy Day	pretty clear Ricky Grimsley Peter Fiske just dont see it
Rico Hero	2 Peter 3:5 New King James Version (NKJV)5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old,
Peter Fiske	Rico Hero, of course the Earth is old in relation to us. The pyramids in Egypt were built almost 5,000 years ago, and we consider them ancient. The creation of the Earth was only about 1,500 to 2,000 years earlier, and that’s not supposed to be ancient? There’s no need to compromise Genesis with evolutionists who want to do away with God by inserting the magic pixie dust of deep- time/millions of years, by which they think all things can happen naturalistically. Christians only make themselves foolish by compromising the word of God with such people!
Rico Hero	Peter Fiske, Christians who accept the literal word of God which reveals to us ” the heavens were of old” do not as you say “compromise..with evolutionist”. This compromise with evolution is an excuse used by Young Earthers and only exists in the minds of those who willfully forget that the heavens were of old.
Peter Fiske	Rico Hero, Christians who accept the literal word of God and read Genesis 1 in context can’t find any reference to a gap of supposed billions of years. That’s nothing more or less than compromising with evolutionary ideas of supposed long ages, which make the idea of a Creator unnecessary since deep time supposedly can guide naturalistic processes to not only create life from nonliving chemicals, but evolved that life from a single celled organism to something as complex as a human. The magic pixie dust is supposed deep-time, and the theologically illiterate neophytes that support the Gap myth unwittingly perpetuate this false idea.
Rico Hero	Peter Fiske, Just about everyone in this group reads Genesis literally and in context and can see a gap. Because it is there. Why you cant is troubling to me so I will leave you alone as commanded Matthew 15:14 King James Version (KJV)14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Peter Fiske	Rico Hero, reading Genesis literally means reading no Gap because there is none to be found other than in the fertile imaginations of those false teachers like Finis Dake, and those Biblically unsophisticated (dense) enough to believe that something that isn’t specifically or passively mentioned in the text of Genesis 1, is somehow there, when it clearly isn’t! You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.
Troy Day	Thanks Rico and Gary There is another VERY important issue here that has been ignored. In ANY instance in the NT where it says FROM THE foundation of the world(s) – the word foundation is Grk. katalambano – means to throw away or fall; many orthodox translations render it from “the falling away of the worlds” literally referring to an earlier creation that was fallen before the foundations of this creation were established
Link Hudson	That’s not what I am seeing for definition or usages. That sounds like a folk etymology anyway, kind of what some people do with Nicolaitan. Do you have reason to think that the origin of this Greek word had anything to do with the idea that the word was fallen before Genesis 1.
Ricky Grimsley	Young earth should be treated like flat earth.
Peter Fiske	Ricky Grimsley, ((Young earth should be treated like flat earth))Not a good way to start considering that this is just a fallacy of equivocation.http://www.txstate.edu/…/fallacy…/Equivocation.htmlWhy? Because so-called “young earth” (Biblical Creation) is biblically-based, while a flat earth isn’t! These kinds of careless statements clearly demonstrate that you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of sound theology or science. You admitted to me you have no college training or degree to speak of, as the content of your messages indeed show this. This is a bad witness for the cause of Christ, as ignorance makes Christian evangelism weak and ineffective.
Ricky Grimsley	I mean donâ€™t you take the Bible literally…..doesnâ€™t this prove the earth is flat?Revelation 7:1 KJVS[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Troy Day	Ricky Grimsley Which one is young earth? I thought there are one and the same
Ricky Grimsley	Apparently I put this in the wrong place
Troy Day	most famous last words 🙂 Alan Smith
Peter Fiske	Troy Day, the so-called young Earth is actually biblical creation, because God created the heavens and the Earth in 6 literal 24 hour days less than 10,000 years ago. That is what scripture teaches, not some ridiculous and false Gap (pigeon-holed into scripture by Genesis compromisers) that can’t be found in Genesis 1 whatsoever.
Gary Micheal Epping	This argument can only be settled, if we look at the situation that precedes all theories and explanations. Determine where the chaos in Gen 1:2 came from and you will have a valid answer.
Peter Fiske	Gary Micheal Epping…
Gary Micheal Epping	Pete Fiske Posting pictures of yourself doesn’t add anything to what we already didn’t know about you.
Peter Fiske	No Gary, that’s you! Sticking your head in the sand so you can avoid dealing with the truth, which is that we live on an earth less 10,000 years old, and we read a Bible that we don’t have to extrapolate supposedly covers millions of years, when no such story is found in any of its 66 books.
Gary Micheal Epping	Pete Fiske Too thin for me. It has got to be you.
Peter Fiske	Gary, I’m not that thin either.
Troy Day	Gary Micheal Epping 315 comments later in this discussion, the only thing that has become clear that Peter Fiske is back into his old habits of Pete Fiske to pollute good discussions with random links, sites and comments. This topic will be temporarily closed to maintenance. It will be re-opened shortly with close monitoring of the discussions focusing on the 10 questions of OP only.

10 Bible cannot explained gap pre-adamic preadamic race that the theology theory THINGS without

PentecostalTheology .com

560 Comments

Reply May 21, 2018
Varnel Watson

Peter Fiske Pls dont spam the discussion with fast multiple copy paste comments and extra links. Give time to others to respond. Stick to the points 1 by 1 so we can get to the bottom of if it all I prefer each comment as a new paragraph and no folded tree comments that then have to be reloaded to read, but this is just my personal preference! And GO – how would you explain:

1. Where lost souls come from?

http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamic-race-gap-theory-explains-it-all/

Reply May 21, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy, you apparently view debate on this topic as spamming, especially my vigorous and content filled responses that really challenges the validity of the Gap Theory. Please correct me if I’m wrong but it seems as when the thread doesn’t agree with your perspective and point of view, that you use your weight as admin to shut down conversation. That’s how I conduct debates on the sites that I manage, and not a way to conduct an open forum. If you don’t want debate and just want to advocate this unbiblical idea then close the message board up for discussion, or let me know that you don’t want me to post here.

I’ve said before that I won’t post if you have a problem with it because when I do my aim is to prove my point as vigorously as I can.

I’ve tried to stay on topic but your friend, Gary Michael Epping, chose to deviate and spam by your own definition) this message board with his off-topic ad hominem attacks on me.
Reply May 21, 2018
Varnel Watson

Well brother, after your posts got reported 7-8 times for spam links a standard has to be establish and set clearly for the future. Lots of other groups have banned you for spamming too where other admin have found your spamming destructive. Now, please take the opportunity to actually discuss the OP.
Reply May 21, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

A definition of spamming is “the use of electronic messaging systems like e-mails and other digital delivery systems and broadcast media to send unwanted bulk messages indiscriminately.(https://www.techopedia.com/definition/23763/spamming). I never spam. If a message is my own then I put no footnote in a post. If I paraphrase or have a direct quote from others, I include a footnote. Normally, that is all I include in a post. But, because Peter kept complaining, I started putting the reference note as a a link. It is fine with me to cut out the unnecessary reference links and just put the footnote in the context of the post. This might help any large scale spamming reference links when little or no actual information is included in a post.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

In regard to ‘Where lost souls come from,’ Hugh Ross thinks the ancient world was peopled with pre-Adamic intelligent but soulless human-like bipedal beings. Not being made in the image of God, however, they had no possible place in the next world. Derek Prince states that the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race probably constitute “evil spirits” (demons) of the present age.
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, Hugh Ross’ views are erroneous and as unbiblical as Dake’s. Providing links to support my assertions isn’t spamming, and it seems the reason you’re referring to it in such a way is that you can’t deal with the information. It’s easy to denounce the information as spam and then to insult the one giving the opposing point of view as a jackass, which you did towards me quite a few times, in order to just dismiss the opposing point of view. If you want to discuss and debate let’s do that!
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, there was never a pre-Adamic world, that’s false doctrine. The Bible is God’s Word and adding to or taking away from his pure Word is blasphemous. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18,19.)
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, it would interest you to know that I admin 6 creation versus Evolution groups, and I in the other admins there permit vigorous debate and discussion with citations to cite a particular perspective even if it isn’t in alignment with ours. Atheist evolutionists and other folks who may disagree with our perspective are indeed permitted and encouraged to post as long as they follow the rules which is not to troll, or to become obnoxious and vitriolic.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske The most I have said in this regard is that you are ‘stubborn as a mule.’ You do know the difference between a donkey and a mule? Hugh Ross and Derek Prince are both held in high regard by a majority of their peers, whether you like them or not. But, we are not evaluating them here, but using their comments in regard to point # 1. None of your posts so far have addressed that point, and are off topic.
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping , ((The most I have said is that you are stubborn as a mule))
Unflattering Graphics of mules bellowing is a disparaging reference and equating that with me is an ad hominem.

((You know the difference between a donkey and a mule))
A second at hominem, disparaging my intelligence or discernment. Troy Day, are you following this conversation? You should be!

((Hugh Ross and Derek Prince are held in high regard by a majority of their peers))
I know you Ross, I have spoken with him on more than one occasion and I know that he he’s a really nice guy, but he isn’t held in high regard by his the majority of his astrophysicist peers as most of them are atheists or agnostic and evolutionists, and regard Ross as a compromiser to Biblical Christians who oppose materialistic evolutionism (and billions of supposed years) and Genesis compromise.
Reply May 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

Stick to the points Peter Fiske
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, I am however it’s hard to have meaningful dialogue when the admin and your debate opponent are against you.
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, I’ve never called you a liar, a friend of Satan, or any such disparaging thing. I have called false teachers, like Finis Jennings Dake, those things because that’s what he was as he prolifically and extensively taught these false doctrines and spread them within the Body of Christ.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske “Stubborn as a mule” is a true statement as to your ability to listen. If you want examples of ‘ad hominem,’ check out what you have called me, ‘a liar,’ ‘a deceiver,’ ‘friend of satan,’ ‘false teacher,’ to mention just a few. You have also made malicious statements about other people on this group, as will as well-known teachers and theologians in the field. Below are just a few:
* fundamental misunderstanding of scripture
* no idea what you’re talking about
* First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin.
* false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan, seems to prefer
* You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, nose out of the heretical commentaries in the Dake Bible, fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas
* unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!,
*spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God!,
no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap,
*You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske Peter Fiske If you want examples of ‘ad hominem,’ check out what you have called me, ‘a liar,’ ‘a deceiver,’ ‘friend of satan,’ ‘false teacher,’ to mention just a few. You have also made malicious statements about other people on this group, as will as well-known teachers and theologians in the field. Below are just a few:
* fundamental misunderstanding of scripture
*no idea what you’re talking about
* First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin.
* false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan, seems to prefer
* You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, nose out of the heretical commentaries in the Dake Bible, fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas
* unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!,
*spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God!,
no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap,
*Christians who accept the literal word of God which reveals to us ” the heavens were of old” do not as you say “compromise..with evolutionist”,
*You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, 1. Finis Dake was and is a false teacher (Gap Myth, Soulless Pre-Adamite humanoids, *Planet Heaven*, and an endless cascade of other such pseudo-theological nonsense).

2. Calling so-called “well-known theologians” who teach heresy, like millions of supposed years years in Genesis 1, by there correct designation, isn’t an ad hominem but a statement of fact!
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary, 1. Finis Dake was and is a false teacher (Gap Myth, soulless Pre-Adamite humanoids, *Planet Heaven*, and an endless cascade of other such pseudo-theological nonsense).

2. Calling so-called “well-known theologians” who teach heresy, like millions of supposed years in Genesis 1, by their correct designation, isn’t an ad hominem but a statement of fact!

3. Calling out false teachers (like Dake) and false doctrine (like the Gap myth [https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/the-gap-theory-an-idea-with-holes/]) is a Biblical mandate, so it doesn’t matter if it offends your sensibilities or not, it’s the blunt and unvarnished truth!
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

“Christian old-earth advocates believe in the authority and integrity of the Bible as much as young-earth advocates do. By their own admission, young-earthers note that a number of well respected theologians and scholars did not and do not believe in a young earth. (americanvision/why are young people leaving the church)
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary ((Christian old-earth Advocates believe in the authority and integrity of the Bible))
Then why did they try to rewrite the first 11 chapters of Genesis? Old earthers like Hugh Ross give lip service to the Integrity of scripture, but do exactly the opposite when they try to squeeze and unbiblical doctrine, namely supposed evolutionary based deep time, which is only necessary if life supposedly evolved from lower forms over long periods of supposed time.

((By their own admission young-earthers…))
Um, it’s biblical creationists since Genesis 1-11 clearly teaches an Earth less than 10,000 years old. The term you use is inaccurate (since 6 -7 millennia ago is very ancient) and a disparaging one designed to make the in context proper Biblical position on Creation in the age of the Earth look foolish in the sight of materialistic evolutionists, old-earthers like Hugh Ross, and the late false teacher Finis Jennings Dake have tried (and unilaterally failed) to impress.

((why are young people leaving the church))
As both Barna and Answers in Genesis [https://answersingenesis.org/train-up-a-child/already-gone/] have noted in their statistical studies, a slavish adherence to evolutionary ideas wedged into Genesis creates doubt about the validity of scripture in young people.

Reply May 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping good explanation of point (1) but as you see when opponents of the theory are asked to refute the actual theory and not some other straw man fallacy they vanish

Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Troy Day It would seem that these pre adamites who were corrupted by Satan, were destroyed, with no place for their disembodied spirits to go, but rather roam the earth until the end times. After the 6 days of creation, mankind was made in the likeness of God, and their souls going either to heaven or hell at the point of death.
Reply May 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

That makes sense What other biblical way there is to explain that Peter Fiske
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, there are no pre-adamites, there’s no evidence of them in nature/fossil record [https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/] l, or in the Bible exclamation point point me one verse that you can conclusively say that in context says that there were supposed soulless pre-Adamites, Lucifer’s make-believe flood, and a supposed Gap in Genesis. There’s no such evidence in existence!
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, there never were any pre-Adamites, to assume such nonsense is out right heresy as it adds to the canon of the Word of God
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, I haven’t erected one straw man in any of my responses. The onus is on Gappists to prove that which is an unbiblical claim, that are supposed *gap* of millions of years or more exist in Genesis 1 in order to accommodate those, like Thomas Chalmers, Finis Dake, and Hugh Ross, who wish to rewrite the Bible to make it supposedly *more palatable* with modern evolutionary based beliefs.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

I thought we were discussing lost souls as part 1 of the OP.
Reply May 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

yeah Fiske is all over the place again #sorry
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, there are no lost souls of pre-Adamites, that’s what you were referring to wasn’t it?
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Day, the idea of pre-Adamites souls is a moot point, there never were any such people.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske Where is your proof of no lost souls. You just saying that doesn’t tell us anything.
Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, are you referring to supposed pre-Adamite humanoids?
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske No, the pre=adamite hominoids.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, there were no pre-human hominoids (or hominids for that matter.)

Evolutionists try to construct a suppose ladder from a chimp like common ancestor (Australpithecus afarensis [Lucy]) to humans, a process that supposedly lasted according to their flawed old age thinking, 4 to 5 million supposed to years. I’ve actually seen the *Lucy* fossil when it was on loan to the Houston Natural History Museum back in 2010. All this creature was was an ape, actually very close to an extant bonobo.
https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/lucy/
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske Put your point from the reference in the context of your post, or I will not respond to it.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, for a second time I ask you, you are referring to the mythical pre-Adamite soulless caveman, right?
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske no.

Reply May 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping In the book of Hebrews, the Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the maker of the “worlds” (plural):

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
(Heb. 1:2 KJV)

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
(Heb. 11:3 KJV)

What worldS or ageS if not the pre-adamic? What else could there be? Ricky Grimsley

Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Troy Day Worlds in these passages are definitely plural. We know from Revelation that our present world will be destroyed, ‘Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth..” (REV 21:1).’ That will be a recreated world yet to come in the future. We also exist in a recreated world that we presently live in. And then, before Gen 1;2, there is the original creation. That makes three creations of God before all sin and evil are eliminated.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, actually Revelation 21:1 speaks of the new heavens and earth, that is the SECOND Earth since we’re still living on the first Earth that will be destroyed by fire.

“For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water [on Day 1 of Creation Week – Genesis 1:1-5] by the Word of God [the Lord Jesus Christ -John 1:1-4], and that by means of these the [PRE-FLOOD Genesis 1 – 6] world that then existed was deluged [Noah’s Flood – Genesis 6-9] with water and perished.” ~ 2 Peter 3:5-6 [ESV]

Then 2 Peter 3:7…
“But by the same word rthe heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.” [ESV]

2 Peter 3:7 parallels Revelation 21:1…
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the FIRST EARTH had passed away (BY FIRE – 2 Peter 3:7], and the sea was no more.” [ESV]

“In Revelation 21:1 God does a complete make-over of heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:12–13). The new heaven and new earth are what some call the ‘eternal state’ [https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-state.html] and will be ‘where righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13).’

https://www.gotquestions.org/new-jerusalem.html
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske Above, you are referring to the earth rather than worlds. “Earth” is a planet. It is a spherical-shaped mass of matter in time and space. Actually, the earth in Gen 1:2 was not destroyed from the previous era, but was laid waste and void. At the present time, this means there is but one earth going into the end times. In Rev 21:1, it says, ‘Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.’ A case can be made that God completely destroyed both heaven and earth, and started again from nothing. If so, then this would represent a second new heaven and earth. However, the word G3928, for away does not use the term destroyed, but rather go away or perish. A second case can be made that the earth we live in will be replenish from the remnants of the old, which would mean just one earth over time. However, either way, this does not affect the fact that we are presently living on the first earth.

The word, worlds, as used by Troy is G165, which means, an age, and is used only in the two passages that Troy quoted in Hebrews. These worlds indicate the prevailing conditions during ages on the Earth. The present world includes the earth, our present “world” also consists of the stars in the sky, the trees of the field, the people, the cities of the nations and the present evil world system on the face of the Earth. The Hebrew passage refers only to worlds past and present, not the future one in Rev 21, since it has not yet occurred. The present world has had continuous generations of people dating back to the time of Adam. If the Hebrew passages were simply referring to this era, then the word ‘world’ would have been used. ‘Worlds’ indicate a time before Gen 1:2, when an entire previous world was completely wiped out, and God started anew with Adam.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, you’re playing semantical games just so you can *be right* in the light of evidence against Dake’s erroneous and false picture of Earth history.

“Lexicon :: Strong’s G1093 – gē:
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

arable land

the ground, the earth as a standing place

the main land as opposed to the sea or water

the earth as a whole”

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1093&t=ESV

The Greek word is world or Earth, it means the same thing! There were only two world’s or Earth’s and in history. We’re still living on the first Earth that will be destroyed by fire as Revelation 21:1 says.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, ((Earth is a planet))
Yeah, so this has been revealed to you, huh?

((It is a spherical shaped mass… in time and space))
Yeah, so far so good. Except that you’re attempting to split hairs here. Those type of maneuvers cause confusion, which false teachers, like Dake are known to do. So don’t get me wrong here like you did before, I’m not calling you a false teacher like Dake. But trying to read things into the text of in order to change the context of that text, is known as eisegesis. The terms are used synonymously in context, using proper biblical hermeneutics. There is no ambiguity here other than trying to read a supposed pre-Adamic world into the text scripture when there is none to be found.

((the earth and Gen 1:2 was not destroyed from the previous era, but was laid waste and void))
You’re confusing (whether ignorantly or deliberately I’m not sure) terms, laid waste versus destroyed. Either way, if the Earth was destroyed in Genesis 1:2, which it wasn’t, it would be laid waste, which means the same thing. The end result would be a void (Hebrew = bohu) or empty planet. However, Genesis 1:2 isn’t talking about Earth being laid waste/destroyed, which is the same thing, from some bygone previous pre-Adamic epoch millions of imaginary years ago.

Genesis 1:2 reveals a creative act by God on Day One of Creation Week! The Hebrew disjunctive phrase/clause “tohu vav bohu” (unformed and void/empty) is a subordinate clause to the subject-verb clause in Genesis 1:1, specifically states God creating the Heavens and the Earth on Day ONE of Creation Week.

“[12th century] Jewish rabbi Ibn Ezra, modified the translation to:
‘When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and empty .” [Fields, W.W., Unformed and Unfilled, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Nutley, New Jersey, p. 151, 1976. ]

Genesis 1:1-5 describes the series of creative processes on Day 1 of Creation Week, not a *re-creation* process from a previous on mentioned and quite mythical era of supposed pre-Adamite cave dwellers.
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske The words earth (H776 and G1093 ) and worlds (G165) do not mean the same thing. The first means earth (at {large}, whole of the terrene globe, while the second means properly an age. The two Hebrew passages are the only ones that use worlds (G165), and are talking about eras, not the physical earth. At the present time, we have had only one earth, but two worlds (eras). One era from Adam to the present, and another that preceded Gen 1:2. It is not using semantical games to use the means from Strongs to show that the ‘earth’ and ‘worlds’ are not the same. Troy was talking about ‘worlds’ not the earth in his post. The answer is one earth, but two worlds.

Reply May 23, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, as far as your pre-Adamite humanoids go, what do you say about this?

“Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.” ~Genesis 3:20 [ESV]

The Hebrew word for “Eve” in Genesis 3:20 is:

“חַוָּה Chavvâh, khav-vaw’;” causatively from H2331; life-giver; Chavvah (or Eve), the
first woman:—Eve.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2332&t=KJV

So Eve was the mother of all living, how could she be the mother of pre-Adamite humans?

Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Don’t know about others, but I do not want to have to hunt through your citation. Put what you think in your post and we can address that.
Reply May 23, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske You said you are ready to debate. Do it. Where did lost souls come from according to post # 1. If not from the pre-adamites, then where. We am listening. Or now, now the administrator has introduced second topic, ‘the Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the maker of the “worlds” (plural I am not discussing anything more with you unless it is on topic.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Excuse me Gary, but I post citations as part of the point I’m making. You have as long as you like, at your leisure, to skim through the citation I post. It’s not as if you are constrained to a short time interval. I post citations because it supports what I say, which shows that I’m not just blowing smoke from my rear end, like Dake did on so many of his false teachings.
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Gary Micheal Epping, the Lord created only one Earth, some six to seven thousand years ago, as faithfully recorded in Genesis 1:1-31. 2 Peter 3 reminds us that there was a pre-Flood (antediluvian) world that lasted from Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) to the year Methuselah died, and Noah’s Flood came 1,656 years later, and the current Earth that has lasted since Genesis 9, the post-Flood world which will be destroyed by fire when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to set up His Millennial Kingdom.
Reply May 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

I dont even know how this make ANY sense No one is arguing Eve was was mother of the pre-Adamites
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Troy Day, there were no pre-adamites. There’s no scriptural or scientific evidence to support such nonsense.

Gary Micheal Epping tries to parrot Hugh Ross’ bizarre (and false) interpretations of scripture trying to salvage the evolutionary idea of supposed deep-time/millions of years, where he tries to equate so-called pre-human “homonoids” (extinct apes in the fossil record) as candidates for the supposed soulless pre-Adamite humanoids. This mass of gibberish is completely unbiblical, and has no coherent foundation in secular (evolutionist) academic circles either. Secular evolutionists literally laugh at Hugh Ross’ attempt to integrate his bizarre interpretations [https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross/] with their materialistic paradigm.
https://ncse.com/library-resource/review-more-than-theory
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske Why do you always attack the man rather than deal with what he wrote. Where did the lost souls come from?

Reply May 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

Ricky Grimsley here is another good one based on Peter Fiske last one about Eve. If there were no pre-Adamites how did the know to search for women in Gen 6 #THERE
Reply May 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping it seems to me that after all this time Peter Fiske canNOT answer (1) so we then we move to #2

2. Where the demons come from?

I dont buy what Ricky Grimsley says about Gen 6
Have my own theory I’ve shared and will share again

Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

I have answered #1, there never were any pre-Adamite humanoids, so they are non-existent, therefore lost souls must be those of people (Homo Sapiens, descendants of Adam) who have died without being under the grace of God that was applied through faith to men like Enoch, Noah, and Abraham (Hebrews 11), under the old Covenant before the Messiah came. Those (descendants of Adam) who died apart from Christ after Jesus died on the cross are also lost souls, as they are in Hades (1 Peter 3:19) awaiting Final Judgement.

Demons, unlike the false designation in the commentaries in the Dake Bible, are fallen angels that banished to Earth with Lucifer when he rebelled against God sometime after Creation Week ( Ezekiel 28:13-15; Isaiah 14). Revelation 12:9 also indicates that demons are fallen angels.
Reply May 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

But Fiske you got virtually NO Bible to prove demons descent from Adam? Where in the Bible does it say that?
Reply May 24, 2018
Peter Fiske

Day, I didn’t say that demons descended from Adam.
Reply May 24, 2018
Gary Micheal Epping

Peter Fiske All humans since the time of Adam, at the point of death, either go to heaven or hell, and do not roam the face of the earth as a demon. Angels have a celestial body that can be seen by others, they have a seed like Eve, and have no need to possess or live in a human being.

Reply May 24, 2018
Charles Page

What is a dinosaucer?

Reply May 24, 2018
Charles Page

What’s the Hebrew word for dinosaucer?

Reply May 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

Ricky Grimsley the Hebrew for dinosaucer is Charles Page
Reply May 25, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping since Peter Fiske couldnot respond to (2) shall we move to (3) now?
Reply May 27, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping what Fiske dows when backed into the wall like that he goes to be an expert on other topics. But I think we should proceed with 3, because OP has theological value
Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley the question about the fall of Satan in #3 maybe too hard for flat earthers to answer but #4 is also not that easy

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

Reply May 28, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

Maybe they haven’t yet.
Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

You should consult Charles Page on this one
Reply May 28, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

At the Tower of Babel God divided up the world among the angels and took Abraham for himself? Deuteronomy 32:7-8 ESV
[7] Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you. [8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

what was the name of the guy you like saying God had 70 or 72 sons? and JEsus as YHWH yes Heiser he quotes Dt 32 Is this the direction you are going Ricky Grimsley you are actually miss quoting him quite wrongly He believes not merely among the angels BUT among the sons of God who were 70 and among them JEsus to be YHWH – all this cult like theology that some ppl love http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-heiser-the-source-of-jesus-and-yhwh/
Reply May 28, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

That’s not what he says.
Reply May 28, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

I’ve listen to 50 hours of header and read two books. He isn’t starting a cult.
Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

that is precisely what he says His exact statement is that under the restoration of the 2nd davidic kingdom YHWH is Yeshua the one born Son among other created sons of God #hello and now there is a whole theological movement to debunk his falsified theoretix http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-john-walton-job-lecture-10-sons-of-god-and-satan/
Reply May 28, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

You don’t believe that Jehovah is Jesus? You don’t believe that the angels are sons of God and that Jesus is a sin by birth?
Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

Jehovah’s Witnesses hold #adoptionism like you 🙂 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/jehovahs-witnesses-hold-adoptionism/

Reply May 28, 2018
Varnel Watson

bro Gary lets be moving along to #5 Neither Ricky Grimsley or no one else can explain when satan and angels came down EXCEPT with the Gap theory between GENESIS 1:1-2 #there
Reply May 29, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping

Reply May 29, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

Didn’t Satan’s angels come down in genesis 6?
Reply May 29, 2018
Varnel Watson

I’d say gen 1:1-2 except if you call the sons of God satans angels – who are hells angels?

Reply May 29, 2018
Varnel Watson

Tom Steele Azazel (Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎, translit. ʿAzazel; Arabic: عزازيل‎, translit. ʿAzāzīl) appears in the Torah Bible in association with the scapegoat rite. In some traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it is the name for a fallen angel.

Reply May 29, 2018
Ricky Grimsley

Who knows.
Reply May 29, 2018
Varnel Watson

GOD knows and he tells us in the BIBLE

Reply May 29, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping to me the first 4 are resolved as cannot be explained without the GAP theory, so we move to #5

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

Many liberal theologians have denied it or explained it away but is still there. IMO It related to the creation/falling of the world(S) Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God,
Reply May 30, 2018
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping it is starting to be clear to me that our evolution friends just cant answer 1-5 Shall we move to #6 now?
Reply September 21, 2018
Varnel Watson

Good luck with that Jordan Evans

Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

These could easily be explained without a pre-Adamic race. In fact, Dr. John H. Walton just finished a three-part series on the opening chapters of Genesis called The Lost World of Genesis On, The Lost World of Adam and Eve, and The Lost World of the Flood. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him, but he is the world’s foremost Old Testament/Hebrew scholar – what NT Wright is to the New Testament, Walton is to the Old Testament. On top of that, he’s also a Charismatic and Pastors in the Christian & Missionary Alliance. I highly recommend his work.
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

If it is so easy – just try it 🙂 Ricky Grimsley I dont really follow adventists or their scholars but I could
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day yeah, I’ll reply when I’m home from the day.
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

the 7the day?
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day no, from church lol
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

7the day church? 🙂
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day nope – regular Charismatic/Pentecostal church in Charlotte, NC.

wearethegate.com
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

oh Lord regular would be the term 🙂 Jimmy Humphrey
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Idk where you got the idea we were Adventist..
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

you gave a link + said something about THE day 🙂
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day yeah, I’m on the leadership team at The Gate, my Sunday is usually packed and I don’t get home until later in the day.
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

I just asked a question You should preach pre-Adamic Most 7th day adventists believe this stuff
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day I preach/teach historical-contextual-grammatical understandings of the text. You have to do exegetical origami to get a pre-Adamic race, or a gap theory for that matter, from the text. The “two flood accounts” suggestion is comical as well.
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

You will have to explain to us “two flood accounts without the gap-theory then. Would love to see you try 🙂 Many have tried in this group in failed greatly into the 7th day heresy Why would you cite a pre-Adamc teacher then?
Reply September 23, 2018
Jordan Evans

Troy Day what are you talking about? Who is a pre-Adamic teacher? John Walton certainly isn’t.
Reply September 23, 2018
Varnel Watson

most 7th days adventists are – check with me later
Reply September 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

many have tried and failed…
Reply September 24, 2018
Jordan Evans

First, I answer these questions from the cultural-historical-grammatical hermeneutic, meaning that I believe Biblical texts can only properly be understood in the way the original writers intended for them to be understood (writer’s purpose) and the way the original readers/hearers would have understood as well (reader relevance).

Second, many of these questions have no connection to a “pre-Adamic” race theory whatsoever, such as questions about dinosaurs and the Fall of Satan.

Third, I have summarized answers due to time constraints, but I have mentioned some recommended scholarly sources for further study and review.

1. Where lost souls come from?

I don’t understand why this is an issue – I can’t remember reading anything about lost souls in the creation account.

2. Where the demons come from?

Souls of the Nephilim, in my opinion, and this is the case in The Book of Enoch and other Jewish writings. Though Enoch is not canon, it is most likely how early Jews would have understood some of these texts. See Dr. Michael Heiser’s book Reversing Hermon, and The Unseen Realm.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

Most likely during the time of chaos when the earth was “without form” and “void.” Some think his fall may be the very reason why the earth was without form and void in the first place. Some scholars have theorized he fell with the angels Pre-Deluge, yet Post-Fall of Man. The serpent being in the garden doesn’t necessitate a belief that Satan had already fallen at the time, especially since we see in Job that he is in heaven with “sons of God.” This question simply isn’t answered in scripture, meaning we can only hypothesize. See The Unseem Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser.

Again, I don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race.

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

.. They tripped and fell down the Stairway of Heaven? Honestly don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race. With that being said, the first mention of an angelic fall of some kind is mentioned before the Flood, but after The Fall of Man. This could have been the time Satan fell as well – scripture simply doesn’t give us the black and white answer.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

The Bible doesn’t tell two creation stories – it opens with a chiastic poem about the glory of God’s sovereignty over creation, and then switches to narrative form to illustrate where everything went wrong with the world.

6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

In the ANE mind, before time began, there was chaos, disorder, and nothing had function, and so Genesis 1 is a chiastic poem about God’s sovereign declaration to bring order, function, and rule to the cosmos. Dr. John H. Walton and Dr. Meredith G. Kline have treatments on Genesis 1 that expound upon this view showing the covenantal implications.

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

There are not two flood narratives – there is only one flood narrative, with a reference to “the deep” in the opening chapter of Genesis. This connects back to my answer for #6 in that ancient near eastern people, particularly the ancient Jews, saw the ocean as a place of chaos – it’s where the leviathan lived – there was no order. The beauty of Genesis 1 in the mind of these ancient people is that Yahweh could make order out of chaos – He is sovereign over all creation, including the dangerous, chaotic waters. For more information, see The Lost World of Genesis One by Dr. John H. Walton, the world’s foremost Hebrew and ANE history/language scholar.

8. Age of earth?

It’s important to remember that Genesis 1-3 is not a scientific textbook for the purpose of trying to prove a young earth theory – the early Jews and original reads could care less about those questions, so I don’t believe it is something we should have in mind when we read these texts. Genesis 1 is chiastic poetry about the ordering of the cosmos. We cannot read our modern scientific questions and theories into a text that was written before they knew what germs were, what gravity was, etc. They believed the earth was flat, the atmosphere was domed, and there was a firmament (hard layer) that kept waters above from pouring onto them below.. Not really dealing with scientists here.

If that doesn’t satisfy you, Dr. Gerald Schroeder (PhD in Nuclear Physics and Planetary Sciences from Massachusetts Institute if Technology) has presented a very interesting theory, namely, that from the perspective of the point of origin of the Big Bang, according to Einstein’s equations of the ‘stretching factor’, time dilates by a factor of roughly 1,000,000,000,000, meaning one trillion days on earth would appear to pass as one day from that point, due to the stretching of space. When applied to the estimated age of the universe at 13.8 billion years, from the perspective of the point of origin, the universe today would appear to have just begun its sixth day of existence, or if the universe is 15 billion years old from the perspective of earth, it would appear to have just completed its sixth day. So the earth can be both young and old at the same time.

9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?

Some have theorized they existed during the time earth was void and a wasteland. It’s important to keep in mind that ANE saw “existence” and “function” as the same thing. So something doesn’t truly “exist” unless it serves a purpose of some kind, or functions in a particular way. For example, a Greek would look at a chair and say, “I can see and feel the chair, therefore the chair exists.” An ANE person would say, “I can sit in this chair, therefore it exists.”

If we keep this in mind, they very well could have existed in a time before the earth was suitable for man – before earth was functioning and in order. Keep in mind as well, that dinosaurs lived during a time when the atmosphere was completely different from our current atmosphere – humans and most dinosaurs simply could not co-exist.

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Seeing as how the original sin was carried out by Adam and Eve, I do not believe this has anything to do with a pre-Adamic race.

Reply September 24, 2018
Thangsan Hisfootstep

All better not to daydream beyond what the Scripture clearly tells us. For that’s all our small brain can best bear.
Reply September 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

Jordan Evans like I said 🙂 many have tried and failed Let’s see how you can do defending your position…
Reply September 24, 2018
Jordan Evans

First, I answer these questions from the cultural-historical-grammatical hermeneutic, meaning that I believe Biblical texts can only properly be understood in the way the original writers intended for them to be understood (writer’s purpose) and the way the original readers/hearers would have understood as well (reader relevance).

Second, many of these questions have no connection to a “pre-Adamic” race theory whatsoever, such as questions about dinosaurs and the Fall of Satan.

Third, I have summarized answers due to time constraints, but I have mentioned some recommended scholarly sources for further study and review.

1. Where lost souls come from?

I don’t understand why this is an issue – I can’t remember reading anything about lost souls in the creation account.

2. Where the demons come from?

Souls of the Nephilim, in my opinion, and this is the case in The Book of Enoch and other Jewish writings. Though Enoch is not canon, it is most likely how early Jews would have understood some of these texts. See Dr. Michael Heiser’s book Reversing Hermon, and The Unseen Realm.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

Most likely during the time of chaos when the earth was “without form” and “void.” Some think his fall may be the very reason why the earth was without form and void in the first place. Some scholars have theorized he fell with the angels Pre-Deluge, yet Post-Fall of Man. The serpent being in the garden doesn’t necessitate a belief that Satan had already fallen at the time, especially since we see in Job that he is in heaven with “sons of God.” This question simply isn’t answered in scripture, meaning we can only hypothesize. See The Unseem Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser.

Again, I don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race.

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

.. They tripped and fell down the Stairway of Heaven? Honestly don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race. With that being said, the first mention of an angelic fall of some kind is mentioned before the Flood, but after The Fall of Man. This could have been the time Satan fell as well – scripture simply doesn’t give us the black and white answer.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

The Bible doesn’t tell two creation stories – it opens with a chiastic poem about the glory of God’s sovereignty over creation, and then switches to narrative form to illustrate where everything went wrong with the world.

6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

In the ANE mind, before time began, there was chaos, disorder, and nothing had function, and so Genesis 1 is a chiastic poem about God’s sovereign declaration to bring order, function, and rule to the cosmos. Dr. John H. Walton and Dr. Meredith G. Kline have treatments on Genesis 1 that expound upon this view showing the covenantal implications.

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

There are not two flood narratives – there is only one flood narrative, with a reference to “the deep” in the opening chapter of Genesis. This connects back to my answer for #6 in that ancient near eastern people, particularly the ancient Jews, saw the ocean as a place of chaos – it’s where the leviathan lived – there was no order. The beauty of Genesis 1 in the mind of these ancient people is that Yahweh could make order out of chaos – He is sovereign over all creation, including the dangerous, chaotic waters. For more information, see The Lost World of Genesis One by Dr. John H. Walton, the world’s foremost Hebrew and ANE history/language scholar.

8. Age of earth?

It’s important to remember that Genesis 1-3 is not a scientific textbook for the purpose of trying to prove a young earth theory – the early Jews and original reads could care less about those questions, so I don’t believe it is something we should have in mind when we read these texts. Genesis 1 is chiastic poetry about the ordering of the cosmos. We cannot read our modern scientific questions and theories into a text that was written before they knew what germs were, what gravity was, etc. They believed the earth was flat, the atmosphere was domed, and there was a firmament (hard layer) that kept waters above from pouring onto them below.. Not really dealing with scientists here.

If that doesn’t satisfy you, Dr. Gerald Schroeder (PhD in Nuclear Physics and Planetary Sciences from Massachusetts Institute if Technology) has presented a very interesting theory, namely, that from the perspective of the point of origin of the Big Bang, according to Einstein’s equations of the ‘stretching factor’, time dilates by a factor of roughly 1,000,000,000,000, meaning one trillion days on earth would appear to pass as one day from that point, due to the stretching of space. When applied to the estimated age of the universe at 13.8 billion years, from the perspective of the point of origin, the universe today would appear to have just begun its sixth day of existence, or if the universe is 15 billion years old from the perspective of earth, it would appear to have just completed its sixth day. So the earth can be both young and old at the same time.

9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?

Some have theorized they existed during the time earth was void and a wasteland. It’s important to keep in mind that ANE saw “existence” and “function” as the same thing. So something doesn’t truly “exist” unless it serves a purpose of some kind, or functions in a particular way. For example, a Greek would look at a chair and say, “I can see and feel the chair, therefore the chair exists.” An ANE person would say, “I can sit in this chair, therefore it exists.”

If we keep this in mind, they very well could have existed in a time before the earth was suitable for man – before earth was functioning and in order. Keep in mind as well, that dinosaurs lived during a time when the atmosphere was completely different from our current atmosphere – humans and most dinosaurs simply could not co-exist.

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Seeing as how the original sin was carried out by Adam and Eve, I do not believe this has anything to do with a pre-Adamic race.

Reply September 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

I see you started struggling on the first question Avoidance is not a good answer But there is NO other answer to explain lost souls Do you have another answer to #1 ? Link Hudson Ricky Grimsley Gary Micheal Epping Pete Fiske http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-heiser-the-source-of-jesus-and-yhwh/

Reply September 24, 2018
Varnel Watson

So Jordan Evans these look like great “proofs” but are all 10 quite ambiguous Just to reject something without defending your rejection dont really mean much. Like I said, check the previous several hundred comments on this thread Many have tried and failed including all time favorite Pete Fiske was argumentation was demolished by Gary Micheal Epping and Rico Hero together Pls check their previous responses to your arguments
Reply January 13, 2019
Rob Franzen

I have answered all of those questions without the unscriptural gap theory in:

Creation Under Fire from within the church https://www.amazon.com/dp/1607916436/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ddbpCb1KFJ2KT
Reply January 14, 2019
Varnel Watson

Rob Franzen pls share your answers with us here
Reply January 14, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

If you have the time, here is a free read for those that would like to see an alternate view about the gap theory.
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/In-The-Beginning.pdf

Reply January 14, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

If you want to skip the theological arguments about Creation, and hear the Angel Cody’s eyewitness story about creation, you can skip to Chapter two.
Reply January 18, 2019
Varnel Watson

Robert Franzen Gary is making a very good point here – skip all the creation talk we’ve heard before and go straight for the answer without using Gap Theory of course

Reply January 15, 2019
Varnel Watson

Rob Franzen still waiting on you to share your answers

Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day okay: I’ll have to make it a “note” because obviously to answer each of these is quite lengthy.
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

yes – hence this group and the discussions in it
Reply January 16, 2019
Kevin Brown

Don’t. Even try Rob. Thay not gona heed. Wasting you time nobeleavers always find a way out.
Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

A pre-adamic race of the gap theory has no Scriptural evidence whatsoever – NONE. I know the theory like the back of my hand. I know Clarence Larkin’s work, Scofield and Dake’s work very well. Great men, but they all bought into the theory which was created in 1814 as a response to the growing pressures of science.
If I can create a “note” I can answer everything very easily
Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

https://1drv.ms/w/s!An9UOFBJ81vygpFtsRtXfonpXoPl5g
Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

https://1drv.ms/w/s!An9UOFBJ81vygpFz2inUJJONVg0hjw
Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

The gap theory suffered its death blow in 1970 (by the author below), yet many haven’t gotten the memo yet. A couple of generations were raised on it. However, once a bad teaching gets in the church it’s hard to get it out once it gets popular. So it takes a couple/few generations to die out – & it is; especially for those who know how to study/interpret & research.

By Arthur C. Custance – Without Form and Void: A Study of the Meaning of Genesis 1:2 (Reprint) (2008-08-16) [Paperback] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0146V2KEM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_LD5pCbEB85W0D
Reply January 16, 2019
Rob Franzen

My book, along with many others have been stamping out the heretical fires ever since. But hardly any good scholars believe it today because it is way to easy to punch holes Thru it

Reply January 15, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Amanda commented, “Wow! Now this is some story! We have
talked about all of the important theories on how God created the
heavens and the earth. The argument for the GEN 1:1-2 gap seems
to be the only plausible explanation. But, you know, we’re still
theorizing without really knowing exactly what happened.”

Reply January 15, 2019
Isara Mo

Gary Micheal Epping
We are still theorizing without really knowing exactly WHAT HAPPENED”
Reply January 15, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Cody, the angel, dropped down from the tree and answered, “You’ve covered the issues based on information from the Bible, as well as the scientific record. Would you like to hear an eyewitness account of what actually took place?” Somewhat startled Denny declared, “You dang tootin! Nothing can better settle a bunch of theorizing than direct experience.”
Reply January 21, 2019
Isara Mo

Gary Micheal Epping
Theoretical deductions if followed systematically will solve the puzzle.
Scientists do it; theologians cringe…for fear of offending the Divine

Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping we;ve discussed this here before 2-3 may be easy to explain but the other 7-8 there is just NO way I am still waiting on Rob Franzen to give us his explanation. I do hope his comment was just not a book ad – but even after checking his book out I still dont see these 7 basic questions being answered without gap-theory

Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day I see a key statement you made here:
“but … I still don’t see these 7 basic questions being answered without the gap-theory.”
This statement says a lot about your research I hate to say. I will suggest that to have a good education one should be versed on other views – after all, Universities are “ideas” coming together to study each – not just one view.
I have studied & discovered at least 12 major views of Genesis/Creation within the Church. That’s the next book .

Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

One of my favorite chapters I wrote is on “When Did Satan Fall?”
& another “Where Did Demons Come From?”
Also included a part 2 in that chapter on Genesis 6 & The Nephilim etc.
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

Robert Franzen I would have to say that I really anticipated more from your research than just a reference to something no one here has read. As far as who has education and not I would rather not comment at that level – people get easily offended and intimidated and its not worth the time. If you think you can address the 10 questions just take them one at the time and have at it.

Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day I did with a couple of them already – above. I have plenty more but one thing at a time

Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

Thanks Robert Franzen for some reason my auto tagger always tags you as Rob Franzen lets start with your version of “When Did Satan Fall?” – I have countered with both Link Hudson and Gary Micheal Epping and have not found another better time. Even LInk who follows Heiser to the dot would agree on earlier pre-Adamic fall of Satan Did the devil sin before Adam? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-the-devil-sin-before-adam/

Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day I’ll get it to Rob or Robert – long story – one was for ministry/my book but fb won’t change the name back to the book like I originally had it:(
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

OK so its both you No problem I just didnt want to tag some presbyterian / episcopal priest who had no clue what I was asking – so when did ol satan fall if not before the fall of Adam?
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day Yes, Satan sinned before Adam – in the spirit realm. The two realms parallel each other. The spiritual realm first & legally has to be.
However, the Bible doesn’t say when he fell – & Scripture certainly doesn’t say he fell before creation; one would have to assume that (wrongly).
Scripture gives a few clues; he was in the garden before Adam fell naturally,
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

He was in the garden before Adam is understood that he came / fell from somewhere else prior to that Are you suggesting the garden was created with satan in it?
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Isa. 14 gives clues & Ezekiel 28 gives clues. Notice what is in existence – ie an “earth.” He was cast to the earth – which was already created. Ok, I’m sure you wouldn’t argue that. Now, a few other questions we have to try to get close to.
1) is there any indication of any problems in Scriptures creation story?
2) How much time went by between the creation of Adam & his fall?
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

I am suggesting that the anointed cherub that became Satan was in the garden before he fell – after the creation week
Thus the fall was sometime after creation & before Adam fell. How much time is that?
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

So your question #2 seems to suggest the fall was AFTER the creation of Adam – there is absolutely no Bible for that except if you suggest satan’s fall was between Gen. ch 2 and ch 3 whichwould be absurd
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day that’s kind of correct Troy – sounds absurd to traditional thinking & traditional theology, but thinking & proper hermeneutics shows something else outside the box of tradition. Traditions are good but sometimes it can blind us to or rather cause us to take for granted something without doing proper exegesis
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

This one verse (plus a whole lot of other evidence) shows us this:
Ezekiel 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

This was before his fall & clearly after creation
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

It sounds to me thus far that you dont have a better suggestion for the fall of satan except between Gen ch 1 vs 1 and vs 2 – in order to get satan there before the fall of Adam but not say God created Eden with satan in it – what else is there?
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day why would you say it’s absurd?
Where does Scripture or anything else say the devil fell before or during Creation week/time?
I assume all you can say is that Satan was there in the garden tempting Adam & Eve – right? Anything else?
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day & no. The fall was not between verse 1 & 2 of the first chapter of Genesis. What would make you say this (I’m expecting to hear the classic gap story) but genuinely try to think of another view that could possibly be.
Like start with GOD – perfection; & go from there. I feel like going on but let me ask; Have you read any other view other than the classic gap?
Reply January 16, 2019
Varnel Watson

when was satans fall then? – no other time
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day first I would say you’re not starting with the beginning – you’re jumping to events after the beginning- at least in your mind, after vs 1. Lets back up, cuz this is so elementary & so easy to get that a child can read Gen 1 & tell you what it says correctly. Sometimes we can’t see the simple things because we’ve been taught by man something else & that’s all we can see, virtually impossible to see anything else – unless we unlearn or learn other views. I’m not saying you are but you come across like you’re incapable of seeing any other way besides the gap. Yet, the gap theory has so many holes & is one of the most ridiculous & unscriptural theory invented.
First, we really need a grasp on theology – as in GOD – who He is & His character, His attributes etc. God is perfection & all that comes from Him is perfect. His creation is perfect, it was flawless, & man was His masterpiece of creation. The whole context of Gen 1 is of creation, & ends with His/God’s total satisfaction. No flaws, no corruption, no falls, no evil. Only God’s perfect design – of which, He will be restoring btw.
The “angel” that fell to become Satan saw all that God had done & observed Adam worshiping God. That cherub got prideful & lusted for that position – it was the position that Satan lusted for – & something had to be created & functioning perfectly in order to be lusted after.
Our creation story in Genesis must start with perfection! Absolute perfection – what else is there with God?
One would have to be told & indoctrinated with some other story to mess up a perfect creation context. We are told that Jer. 4:23; Isa. & a couple others refer to a civilization before Adam. And it’s all taken out of context. I can prove every one of em. This is just a small overview, I go into all the details deeply in the book
Reply January 16, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day I would research the start of the theory. How far back can you trace it? Who was the first person to mention it?
Let’s start with those questions. Then let’s answer more of yours.

Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

Robert Franzen I see the point you are making but it still does NOT answer to the exact time of lucifers fall and this is exactly what we’ve said with Gary Micheal Epping before on this point – the exact timing of the fall cannot be explain without gap theory; never mind if gap theory is true, false, right or wrong – without it one cannot establish when the fall occurred – that’s all we are saying …

Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
Does this ? effect ones salvation? Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall.
Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day an interesting study of two world famous Bible teachers who were the foremost authorities in casting out demons – Derek Prince & Lester Sumrall. These two guys exercised more demons out of people than most, YET they each had a different theology, a different belief of the origins of demons. Two totally different beliefs about this subject. BUT NOTICE THIS: our power doesn’t come from our theology, it comes from our LORD!!!
We will never have our theology exactly correct; when we get to heaven, we will be so surprise how many things we have missed it on & yet, Abba in His Divine love & mercy worked with us.
When we receive this revelation & are at peace with being ok with not knowing, then I believe it is ok to dive deeper into these matters – matters that are secondary & put in that secondary place in our hearts.
Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day P.S. there is still another clue to narrowing down the timing of the devils fall; but our heart issues should be in the right place first. (I can’t pretend to know your heart without being in face to face conversation with you but we need to know just how important this issue is to you).
Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

Than you for your many replies I hope it is a copy paste from the book so we can all read it but could pls tell in 1 sentence

WHEN did exactly the fall of lucifer occur?
Reply January 17, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day read my “non-copy & past” replies & we can talk

– but the answer you’re looking is not rocket science – just clear your head of everything you’ve heard & were taught & read Scripture, it’s right there
Reply January 17, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day Troy Day my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
Does this question effect ones salvation?
Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall.

Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

Rob Franzen you wrote a lot but did not answer my one question I was hoping your book pin points it – obviously it does not – oh well

Reply January 17, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day sorry Troy. Exactly what did you get from what I’ve written so far?
Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

got enough beating around the bush 🙂
Reply January 17, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day sooooo, you can ask questions but not answer any?
Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

I believe I answered the only question asked thus far and waiting to get the answer so we can go to #2
Reply January 17, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day ???
I’ll try a 3rd time:

Troy my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
Does this ? effect ones salvation? Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall
Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

OK – I already answered this twice. What is important for theology is this – the timing of the fall cannot be explained without Gap Theory. That’s really all I am saying
Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day ya haven’t answer why it is important to you to know this.
You haven’t answered if it effected ones salvation.
You haven’t answered what does it effect.

Buuuuut we can move on then to theology if ya don’t feel comfortable about those.

The fall of Satan absolutely CAN be explained without the gap theory.
The theory is unnecessary.
Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

Troy Day you also haven’t answered an earlier question – if you know of any other views or scenarios from others that do answer all 10 questions.

Reply January 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

moving along 10 THINGS IN THE BIBLE THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED WITHOUT THE PRE-ADAMIC RACE GAP THEORY #2. Where the demons come from?
Reply January 17, 2019
Robert Franzen

I went to the link & read all 10 questions again. Who wrote those questions & posted them before having someone proofread for grammatical corrections. Terrible grammar – gives Christians a bad rap – especially one that is a theological presentation:(

Anyways, I went thru & answered all 10 in about 10 minutes.

Should I just copy & past it here?

Reply January 18, 2019
Varnel Watson

You are our hero Gary Micheal Epping and myself have been waiting for your to come along and give the answer. I will post the individual topics one by one later on just for YOU – you go ahead and answer them all

Reply January 20, 2019
Robert Franzen

1. Where lost souls come from?
= According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD.

2. Where the demons come from?
= All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
= short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
= Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
= Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.

6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
= “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
= Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
(Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
= Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.

8. Age of earth?
Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).

9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
= The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep).

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
= The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1/16/19

Reply January 21, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

WRONG ON EVERY POINT! SCORE OF 0, BUT A 1/2 POINT FOR A GOOD TRY. EVALUATION BELOW IN CAPS.
1. Where lost souls come from?
= According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD. = WRONG. TRUE IN NT. NOT TRUE IN OT OR BEFORE CREATION.

2. Where the demons come from?
= All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings. = WRONG. ANGELS NEVER HAD A PHYSICAL BODY TO BE DISEMBODIED FROM. HAD A SPIRITUAL BODY, WITH NO NEED TO POSSESS A HUMAN BODY.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
= short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).
= WRONG. THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THE CREATION OF ANGELS AFTER THE 7 DAYS, WHEN GOD CREATED HIS NEW CREATION, MAN, TO REPLACE THE FALLEN ANGELS FROM THE PREVIOUS ERA.

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
= Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.
=RIGHT. BUT, NO POINTS BECAUSE OTHER ANGELS WERE FROM A PREVIOUS ERA NOT AFTER CREATION.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
= Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.
=WRONG. ONE ORIGINAL CREATION PRIOR TO GEN 1:2, ONE RECREATION BEGININING IN 1:3, AND A A SECOND RECREATION AFTER THE WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.

6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
= “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
= Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
(Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).
=WRONG. VERSE 1:2 IS NOT A PHASE OF CREATING SOMETHING (THE UNIVERSE) FROM NOTHING, BUT IS BUILDING ON SOMETHING , THE FACE OF THE EARTH, THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
= Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.
=WRONG. VERSE 1:2 SAYS ON THE FACE OF THE WATERS. NO WAY FOR WATER TO COVER THE EARTH EXCEPT FOR A FLOOD.

8. Age of earth?
Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).
=WRONG. IF EART IS NOT YOUNG, THEN IT IS OLD AND HAD A HABITATION IN THE TIME BEFORE 1:2. CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
= The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep). =WRONG. GOD TOOK 2 OF EACH KIND. IF THERE WERE DINOSSAURS THEN T REX WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOARD AND ATE A GOOD PORTION OF THE OTHER ANIMALS. BUT, WRONG BECAUSE THEY WERE DESTROYED IN THE FIRST PRE ADAMITE FLOOD.

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
= The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
=WRONG. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT LUCIFER SINNED FIRST, AND WAS THERE IN THE GARDEN TO PASS IT ON TO MANKIND.
Reply January 21, 2019
Robert Franzen

Gary Micheal Epping Alright lets get back to the gap theory ?????
Reply January 21, 2019
Robert Franzen

Gary Micheal Epping, lets talk about it. What support is there for a gap of time in Genesis 1?
Reply January 21, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Okay, let’s start slow with one verse. GEN 1:1 could be used for a young earth or an old earth viewpoint: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” At some point in eternity, God with his spoken Word created the the entire universe from nothing; something came into being that did not previously exist because God spoke it into existence. Before that point, there was God, no universe, and likely the angels. It would seem that since the angels were singing and rejoicing as the cornerstones were laid, a case can be made that the angels were created at some point prior to the creation of the universe. That is what I get from verse 1.
Reply January 22, 2019
Robert Franzen

Gary Micheal Epping , Good overview Gary. I like it. I would agree with all that, but there’s some more questions that need to be answered with verse 1.

Verse 1 is either an Independent clause or a Dependent clause.

If it is an Independent clause it would cause vs 2 to be interpreted “and the earth was,” or “but the earth was …” or “now the earth was …”

If it is a Dependent clause, Dependent on what?
And it would cause vs 2 to be interpreted, “WHEN the the earth came into existence it was …”

Either way is grammatically correct & some translations do it; but leads to two totally different outcomes.

Which would you opt for?

Reply January 20, 2019
Varnel Watson

may wanna rethink the phrase in terms of the OP

Reply January 20, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day 1. Where lost souls come from?
= According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD.

2. Where the demons come from?
= All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
= short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
= Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
= Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.

6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
= “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
= Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
(Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
= Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.

8. Age of earth?
Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).

9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
= The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep).

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
= The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1/16/19
Reply January 20, 2019
Rob Franzen

Troy Day I answered every question without the gap. And violated no Scriptural contexts – many scholars & theologians & whole denominations agree.

I didn’t say you’d agree with it cuz you have your mind made up. But you cannot say it cannot be done. You can deny the green wall is green all you want but that doesn’t change reality- it can be & has been done.
Reply January 21, 2019
Varnel Watson

Seems like you gave up and left the group Oh well – not the first one who has tried to no avail

Reply January 21, 2019
Steve Losee

LOL!
Reply January 22, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Robert Franzen Let’s cut the mental gymnastics. If you don’t believe that the bible was inspired by God in both its initial writing by Moses and translation into English, then there is no sense in going any further. it is best to stay with the authorized english translation, KJV, or maybe the NKJV or NIV to avoid attempts to change or manipulate the meaning in later translations. i believe the bible should be taken literally according to what it says. Otherwise, a person can manipulate and massage new translations to fit their own point of view and render the true meaning of the bible useless.. Verse 1 has traditionally been viewed, overwhealmingly, as as an independent clause. “THE TRADITIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF GENESIS 1:1 IS GRAMMATICALLY EASY, AND THE MOST BASIC PRINCIPLE FOR UNDERSTANDING ANY LANGUAGE IS TO FOLLOW THE EASE OF THE GRAMMAR.’ The dependent-clause understanding of Genesis 1:1 is not grammatically easy; it is difficult and awkward, thus rendering it incorrect.. Nearly all reputable bible scholars believe the traditional understanding of Genesis 1:1 is trustworthy. In the absolute beginning God did indeed created the heavens and earth out of nothing. The only people I have ever seen that what to view verse 1 as a dependent clause are those want to devalue or invalidate verse 2, which is also an independent clause.

Reply January 22, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Even atheistic scientists must reluctantly agree that there was a beginning point for the universe. Stephen Hawking stated, “Any reasonable model of the universe must start with a singularity. This would mean that science could predict that the universe must have had a beginning, but that it could not predict how the universe should begin: for that one would have to appeal to God.” (http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-the-universe.html).
Reply January 22, 2019
Varnel Watson

after his comment on foolish Bible translations I am starting to wonder the same thing
Reply January 22, 2019
Robert Franzen

Gary Micheal Epping how did we jump to if Scripture is inspired by God, of course it is.
To determine whether it’s an Independent Dependent is vital: I needed to know where you stand so I know if we can go on, there’s no mental gymnastics, if ya don’t know, ya don’t know. That’s why we’re here.
But You are correct in saying that the Independent clause is the traditional way & I believe is the correct way.
The Dependent clause came much later, I thinks it was first found in Rashi’s commentary on Genesis.1 Rashi was a Jewish rabbi who lived between 1040 and 1105 A.D
So looks like we’re on the same page (until later) when it comes to vs 1 so far.
Verse two has 3 clauses in it. But before we go there; the gap theory teaches that there was a race of humanoids of some sort living before vs 2. Do you believe that?
Reply January 22, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

We are not ready for verse 2 yet. Do you agree that verse 1 is speaking about God creating the universe from nothing? Also, do you believe that the angels were there watching God create the heavens and earth, as described in Job, and were probably created around the time God made his heavenly abode. No need for your complete statement of faith, as i never questioned your faith nor your standing as a Christian. You make it very clear that you believe the bible is the inspired word of God. I am assuming that that applies to the translated authorized english version too, not just the Hebrew and Greek. As a side note: I think that verse 1 is one of the most magnificent statements in the bible, revealing God’s power and ability to bring Creation into existence.

Reply January 22, 2019
Robert Franzen

Maybe I should post some of my statement of faith? Here’s the brief version (I have an Amplified version too):

The Sacredness & Sovereignty of Scripture:
We believe the Scriptures (Old & New Testaments) to be the inspired Word of God as originally given, and that they are a revelation of God to mankind and His will for mankind. We believe in the absolute truth and authority of the entire canon of Scriptures to govern the affairs of humanity, in belief, faith, and conduct. II Tim. 3:15-17; II Pet. 1:19-21; Ps. 119:160; Prov. 30:5-6; ICor.2:13; I Thess. 2:13.
Reply January 22, 2019
Varnel Watson

Robert Franzen for this topic you should post answers to the questions from your book – if you have them of course

Reply January 22, 2019
Gary Micheal Epping

Would it be possible to put his book on the Pentecostal Theology website? Since he says the book refutes all ten points, we could read for ourselves, and then make comments. Don’t know if Robert would be willing to do that or not.
Reply January 22, 2019
Varnel Watson

Dont see a problem if its published under creative commons as public domain resp. under such (c) notice

Reply February 29, 2020
Varnel Watson

hey Pete Fiske is this something you still concern with OR doing research and your blogs posts on?
Reply February 29, 2020
Pete Fiske

There never was [https://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam] a supposed pre-Adamite race. That’s just so much unbiblical Genesis compromise mythology. And why? To placate the memory of a false prophet, Finis Jennings Dake.
Reply February 29, 2020
Varnel Watson

Pete Fiske IDK that what you are saying is true What is the source? .Does it seem credible?

Reply February 29, 2020
Pete Fiske

Troy Day, the Hebrew phrase “tohu vav bohu” is in the disjunctive form, meaning a creative process being initiated by God on Day 1 of Creation Week. Genesis 1:2 begins with the Hebrew waw [vav] which can mean ‘and’, ‘now’, ‘but’, ‘then’, etc. Wherever vav precedes a noun (as in v.2 vav ‘and’ + erets ‘the earth’) it has the meaning of an explanation (called a vav disjunctive or vav explicativum, i.e. explanatory vav). It is not a sequence of events such as ‘then the earth became’ (which would require a vav consecutive, where vav precedes a verb). It compares with the old English expression ‘to wit’; it could be translated by ‘Now’ or even with the use of parentheses as follows: ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (the earth was without form and empty …).’ Moses used the two vav constructions very deliberately in Genesis 1. Verse 2 has the only vav disjunctive. All 28 other verses beginning with ‘And’ have the vav consecutive.

For further clarification of the misunderstanding surrounding the supposed Genesis proclamation of the Gap heresy, see the excellent debate between Dr Douglas Hamp vs. Gappist S. Douglas Woodward…

https://youtu.be/WhkPBXsM9K4

Reply February 29, 2020
Thomas Henry Jr.

There could never be a pre-adamic race. The order of creation in Genesis does not make room for it. Each day — something happened that explains life as we know it.

This pre-adamic race theory also fuels racism.
Reply February 29, 2020
Thomas Henry Jr.

These ten are easily proven
Reply February 29, 2020
Thomas Henry Jr.

Age of Earth? The earth is created with age built in like Adam and Eve. Like Plants were created with fruits already.

I have a chart of the 7 days that explains creation apart from the false gap theory

Reply February 29, 2020
James Michael Sanders

Thomas Henry Jr. do you have a way to share that chart with me brother I would love to see it.

Yes I fully agree with the clear 7day creation as told in the Bible. All that other speculation mess is for the unbelievers, not I ?
Reply February 29, 2020
Varnel Watson

James Michael Sanders 7 days 24hrs each
Reply February 29, 2020
James Michael Sanders

Troy Day I would be speculating to say how many hrs. But yes I believe 7 days with a sunrise and set so to speak. I believe it was Gods order that we see today, and was inspired by God and explained by men for men.

Adding speculation isn’t needed for me.
Reply February 29, 2020
Pete Fiske

Troy Day, haven’t you read Genesis 1:1-31 (in some other, real Bible not the pretend Dake Annotated Bible with the gaggle of Dake’s incoherent commentary notes)?
Reply February 29, 2020
Pete Fiske

James Michael Sanders, Exodus 20:11… https://creation.com/creation-week-in-stone
Reply March 1, 2020
Varnel Watson

Pete Fiske do you agree with him the earth was created with AGE ie young vs old earth IF SO this proves gap theory explanation Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

That phrase TOHU va BOHU is in the real Hebrew BIBLE you know – can you explain it and why is being used there without GAP theory? Gary Micheal Epping Isara Mo

Reply February 29, 2020
Tara

I am not kidddig , I got the answers for alll of this questions , it is written inside the Bible and some revelation , everything is in the Bible but now dayas we hardly can find all the correct letters and the words in the Bible. telling the truth , I have nothing to loose anymore ministrywise because I have given to God’s hand 3 years ago .

If I told you all Jesus is comming soon and I know the exataly day you all will tell me I have lost my mind , and it is written in the Bible . #tarabeing
Reply February 29, 2020
Varnel Watson

James Michael Sanders hence we examine the subject theologically with NO speculation How else to explain the fall of the worldS with NO gap theory ?

Reply February 29, 2020
James Michael Sanders

Troy Day the Word explains it. He/God told us exactly what happened. ?
Reply February 29, 2020
Varnel Watson

James Michael Sanders sure did Especially when using

became instead of was
and tohy va bohu for the original creation 🙂

There is absolutely NO doubt when one reads Gen 1 in the original Hebr. that there is a GAP A.J. Bible
Reply February 29, 2020
Pete Fiske

What *original creation*
Troy Day ? There’s no such beast to be found anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible, except in the heretical imaginations of Gappist Genesis Compromisers.
Reply March 1, 2020
Varnel Watson

Pete Fiske I think it was Gary Micheal Epping who explained this best for you before in the following way

If Lucifer was created during the 6 days, he would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he was to be cast out quickly before he could use them? Also Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste. He was made to serve God inn heaven which lasted a long long time, maybe as long as 15-20 billion years. Isara Mo

Reply May 19, 2020
Kimberley Johns

Please don’t hold all Pentes responsible. Just sayin’

Reply May 19, 2020
Varnel Watson

not sure what you mean – terms not clear again
Reply May 19, 2020
Craig Danner

I’ve read about that a little, it is interesting

Reply May 19, 2020
Brontë Hauptmann

I had an email exchange with Dr. Kenneth Miller the main purveyor of the gene splicing argument on this very topic a few years back. He brought up a case involving a chinese man who had 44 chromosomes as further proof that the number of chromosomes is changeable. I asked him whether the Chinese man was sterile or not. I never heard from Dr. Miller again. He also tried to defend his position by claiming to be Catholic.
Reply May 19, 2020
Varnel Watson

I don’t feel like arguing with atheists or ungodly ppl tonight. And frankly, I don’t really care how old the earth is. The Bible indicates 6-10 thousand yrs old. Carbon dating is proven to be a fraud. And the earth ain’t flat either, you bone heads! Lol..
Reply June 12, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Gap theory? Again!

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

prove ANY of these 10 without it IF you CAN and Gary Micheal Epping will give you his hat Larry Dale Steele
Reply June 12, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Gap theory is just a theory!
Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

Hingano Kaitu’u prove ANY of the listed 10 I am still waiting and my coffee aint getting hotter Neil Steven Lawrence
Reply June 12, 2020
Stephen Zhao

We’ve already had a reconcilation of holy scriptures and contemporary escomology, geology and biology without so called gap theory. Where is the texts regarding with the another flood narratives? We pinned it on Gen.1:9(NIV: And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.) and 2 Pet. 3:5.(Greek Orthodox NT: ὅτι οὐρανοὶ ἦσαν ἔκπαλαι καὶ γῆ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ δι’ ὕδατος συνεστῶσα τῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ λόγῳ). May God be blessed. Amen, https://princetonastronomy.wordpress.com/2019/06/02/water-water-everywhere/?unapproved=3786&moderation-hash=62828b060847f994b63bef43533d7ccd&fbclid=IwAR3TT0chHszofXH_ChgtS4L-7HPh2iDMVumMW1D0A9EzqQOmx0iv96vNKfs#comment-3786

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping Larry Dale Steele As I’ve been telling Robert Cox this word aint ready for old cowboy theology 🙂
Reply June 12, 2020
David Thomas

Why do those things need explanations? Isn’t the clarity provided by Scripture enough without having to build a complex speculative theory?

Reply June 12, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

David Thomas exactly
Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

is this not APOLOGETIC grou? do we not EXPLAIN all things faith in here Guess you didnt even read the 10 things
Reply June 12, 2020
David Thomas

Troy Day Things like the origin and fall of demons? God did not elaborate on that, so we don’t need to know.
Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

David Thomas really? Than whats Peter talking about Jesus preaching to them and Jude etc. Again we are just talking here but you are not proving where lost souls came from with NO gap theory ? PLUS 9 more
Reply June 12, 2020
David Thomas

Troy Day They mention it but that’s not an authorization to come up with random ideas. I have no idea what lost souls you are taking about
Reply June 12, 2020
Duane Wallenstein

Yes, David Thomas, this article really does read like something a very new believer might put together (no insult intended to anyone). Rather than asking the questions, then sitting back in their chair waiting for one of the countless Facebook professors to “prove me wrong,” the author could simply make a brief study of each issue to get the answers they’re looking for.

Reply June 12, 2020
Jeffry Diaz Abitan

Biblical writers especially NT are not familiar with this gap theory. When they mentioned the first sin they refer to Adam and Eve, When they refer to a great flood they meant Noah, not the pre-Adamic one. When they are talking about future destruction they say second not third.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

blah blah common talk Pls read the 10 things and prove them without But first read Peter and Paul writing about the energies melting the foundations of the earth The Gospel writers on the FALL of the worldS And John on the words of Jesus about Satan falling My coffee aint getting hotter

Reply June 12, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Revelation: and the first heaven pass away not second heaven

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

Gap theory talks of a first earth under the same heaven which produced Satans flood and then Noahs flood You may want to read some on actual gap theory What about WHEN JESUS in the Gospels says since the fall of the worldS ?
Reply June 12, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Same heaven? Really? Isn’t the first one ruined and destroyed and remade? Still count as one? Jesus referring to the fall of Adam nothing more nothing less
Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

Hingano Kaitu’u so you are STILL NOT explaining this 10 things – means you aint got the clue

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

hey David Thomas you look like a thinking guy and I am NOT calling you out with this BUT I’d like to discuss it Perhaps you can give me something I am missing on this one like Gary Micheal Epping has done it many times to some avail

Reply June 12, 2020
David Thomas

My deal is that the Gap Theory is already an argument from silence, reading “the earth was without form and void” as “the earth became without form and void.” Taking other passages from other contexts and combining them together to insert a pre-Adamic race just makes the case even shakier. Most importantly, the overall biblical narrative is redemption of fallen humanity in Christ. How would an extra, pre-Adam humanity that will never be redeemed fit into Paul’s discussion of the two humanities in Romans 5?

Reply June 12, 2020
Jacob Burbidge

Even as someone who believes in a gap-functional interpretation of Genesis, this article is a mess

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

why dont you try to explain these 10 in your own way then – is it too hard for your theology orwhat?
Reply June 12, 2020
Jacob Burbidge

Troy Day Way ahead of you brother

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6LzODu_eCkS5dEes91qE532EE5W27j6

Reply June 12, 2020
Duane Wallenstein

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law – Deuteronomy 29:29

https://bible.com/bible/1/deu.29.29.KJV

Anything pre-Adamic is in the domain of those “secret things.” What God doesn’t mention in His Word, we need not be concerned about. We Christ-followers can always ask Him these things when we get there ☝️. But by then, I imagine these issues may not be all that important

Reply June 12, 2020
Ojedotun Olayinka

Yes, thatz true
Reply June 12, 2020
Stephen Zhao

However, it is helpful to understand holy scriptures better and strengthen the faith of Church of Christ. 3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+33&version=KJV
Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

Stephen Zhao such a cheap way copout
Reply June 12, 2020
Stephen Zhao

Troy Day not cheap but the grace of LORD God just as your salvation which is done by Him. May God bless you. Amen,

Reply June 12, 2020
Ingþór Örn Valdimarsson

Where can one read up on the “pre-adamic” race?

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamite-world/?fbclid=IwAR3x5yIgNzuw9M-p04EBdfT0fZYTHEGDXvVnaujnZdUFng84h1nsZPd4LKI
Reply June 12, 2020
Ingþór Örn Valdimarsson

Troy Day thank you sir.

Reply June 12, 2020
Alvin Adora

How can Eve be the mother of all living if there were pre adamic race?

The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 3:20, ESV)

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

good question – have you read hebrew mythology on Adam having another wife and so on?
Reply June 12, 2020
Alvin Adora

Troy Day yes sir I’m aware with that mythology about “Lilith”.

Reply June 12, 2020
John Carson

For the pre-Adamic race gap theory to be true it necessitates the theory of Evolution to be true.

1 Corinthians 15:45, “So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.”

Adam was the first man. To force the thought of Evolution into holy writ is to answer contrary to the Scriptures of whether Adam was the first. Death would have been known to Adam prior to the Fall as he would have seen the carcasses of his fallen ancestors prior to that curse of death entering into the world.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

why are you arguing something you dont understand ? JUST explain the 10 things without it and you can prove it WRONG
Reply June 12, 2020
John Carson

Troy Day, who are you to tell a person you don’t even know what he does and does not understand? You don’t know me from Adam (or Lucy, if you wish to go further back)
Reply June 12, 2020
John Carson

The “10 points” perhaps should be re-titled, “10 reasons Scripture is authoritative”. These are typical types of argumentations where the Bible’s accuracy is tested and measured through the lenses of any information that can “disprove” it as being reliable.

For example: If someome were to say, “Dinosaurs were not on the Ark, therefore the flood narrative in the Bible is false”…. then to “prove” this Scripturally, one will need to show in Scripture where such a statement is true. However, none can be found. This means the person must use information within parametres that are extrabiblical and then move toward what they believe to be scientifically and historically verifiable. So were there dinosaurs on the Ark? Those measuring this through the lens of the theory of Evolution, then their answer is, no. Those who measure this through the lens of creation science and Biblical information, then their answer is, yes.

The choice is whether a person wishes to believe the Bible, or not. If they wish not to believe the Bible as accurate, then any theory that tickles their ears will do.

Most often there’s a severe lack of both Bible knowledge and lack of understanding of historical science from the person wishing to outsmart God’s Word. The “10 points” only points to the naive trying to turn people’s hearts away from trusting in His holy Word.

Reply June 12, 2020
Richie Porter

I know hollywood uses a lot of their material from the bible, could avatar or future movies implement this theme?

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

are all future sins forgiven ?
Reply June 12, 2020
Richie Porter

Troy Day Hebrews 1:3
Atonement from alpha to omega

Reply June 12, 2020
Karen Hayes

Nonsense! God is clear that the FIRST Man was ADAM.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

where is that clear to you in the BIBLE – pls explain WHY GOD tells the FIRST man to REplanish earth instead of just planish? Gary Micheal Epping
Reply June 12, 2020
Luis Cofresi Jr.

An examination of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) shows that the word was used to mean ‘fill’ from the thirteenth to the seventeenth centuries. In no case quoted in these five centuries does it unambiguously mean ‘re-fill’. The OED defines ‘replenish’ as having 10 meanings throughout its history:

Replenished (adjective):

fully stocked; provided, supplied;

filled, pervaded;

physically or materially filled;

full, made full.

To replenish:

make full, fill, stock with, as in: ‘This man made the Newe Forest, and replenyshed it with wylde bestes’ (AD1494);

inhabit, settle, occupy the whole of;

fill with food, satiate;

fill (space) with; fill (heart) with (a feeling);

fill up again; fill up (a vacant office) (AD1632);

become full, attain to fullness.

Note that only ‘i’ includes the idea ‘again’. This use first appears in a poem in 1612. It appears again in Pepys’ Diary, where he says: ‘buy … to replenish the stores’. Only the year 1612 is anywhere near the date of the KJV (1611), and it’s a poetic use. The Hebrew original of Genesis 1:28 (KJV) is not poetic. All other uses range from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century, when it tends to die out in normal writing.

….
..

The word translated ‘replenish’ (KJV) simply means ‘fill’ in the Hebrew.

In the English of King James’ day, ‘replenish’ also usually meant ‘fill’, not ‘refill’.

The word ‘replenish’ therefore cannot be used to support ideas about a previous creation, which was destroyed. In any case, such erroneous theories, invented in response to the ‘millions of years’ idea, must hold to the unbiblical notion that there was death and suffering before Adam’s sin.

Reply June 12, 2020
Dominic Polverino

If the Bible says Adam was the first
man, then Adam was the first man. Enough said??‍♂️

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

verse for that pls and sooner pls
Reply June 12, 2020
Dominic Polverino

Troy Day Genesis
Reply June 12, 2020
Dominic Polverino

The idea that some thing extra biblical happened between Genesis one and Genesis two is not really supported in scripture

Reply June 12, 2020
Darius Capers

Whatever can’t be explained is not intended to be explained.
The divine author (the Holy Spirit) has revealed and given everything He deems we need to know.
It’s called the economy of narrative.
IF you need to go to extra biblical sources or theories that aren’t biblical it all becomes speculative.
If it’s not in scriptures you don’t really need to know.
The Spirit has given you all He wants you to have.
And frankly, it’s more than enough.
Reply June 12, 2020
Stephen Zhao

Thanks be to God. I would greatly appreciate it if someone share the biblical text here where another flood narratives in Bible regarding with #7? (Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?) Thank you in advance,

Reply June 12, 2020
Girlie Grimaldo Laña

Pls read the book of friedman in title who wrote the bible bec the explanation of two narrative of flood can be explain
Reply June 12, 2020
Girlie Grimaldo Laña

The two group of scribe that wrote the narrative was combined by the reductor

Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

I was expecting an empty article. Turns out, it’s not empty. It legitimately posts 10 things the author thinks can’t be explained unless God lied about Adam being the first man created on day 6 of creation. It’s sad. If only the Church would trust God more.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

So now you have a SOLID theological article in return to your low expectations WHY dont you just explain the 10 things without GAP theory and be done with it? Can you NOT do it – it’s not that hard for a starter theologian
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Troy Day SOLID THEOLOGICAL ARTICLE? ???That’s hilarious, Troy. My “low” expectation was actually a high one. I was hoping no one would be stupid enough to think there are 10 reasons to believe in a pre-Adamic race, so I was hoping it was a satire. Alas, human stupidity disappointed me again. There’s nothing solid in this piece of trash. Half of the questions don’t even make sense, and none of them in any way show that there must have been a pre-Adamic race. Let’s have a look:

“1. Where lost souls come from?”

There are like 20 different ways you could interpret “lost souls”, so how can I even begin to answer this?

“2. Where the demons come from?”

They were created in Heaven, and they sang for joy as the Earth was created (Job 38:7). How does this require a pre-Adamic race?

“3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?”

Good question, not even remotely relevant to the pre-Adamic race. People have been debating this topic for centuries. Christians didn’t believe in a pre-Adamic race before Charles Lyell started lying about the age of the Earth.

“4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?”

Because they chose to join him… How does this require a pre-Adamic race?

“5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?”

It doesn’t. It tells us one in Genesis 1, then Genesis 2 zooms in on day 6. When Jesus discusses divorce in Matthew 19 and Mark 10, He tells us the people in Genesis 1 and 2 are the same story. If you say there is a pre-Adamic race, you are saying Jesus is a liar. This is one of the things you can only explain if Adam was the first man.

“6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?”

The earth started shapeless and void for the same reason everything started shapeless and void. Why did my house start as pallets of bricks? This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, either. God started His work, God finished His work, the end was not the same as the beginning. Again, where is the pre-Adamic race in this? Do you think humans could survive in a shapeless and void Earth? You try breathing when there’s no oxygen.

“7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?”

Where is the second? All I see is one in Genesis 6-9, then Peter tells us people who deny this are deliberately ignorant (2 Peter 3:1-9). Basically, by denying the flood, you’re proving you’re a heretic.

“8. Age of earth?”

6,000 years, approximately. Adam, whom Jesus tells us married Eve at the beginning of creation, was created on day 6. Following genealogies, we see that the time between Adam (whom Paul tells us is the FIRST man) and Jesus is about 4,000 years. Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago. 2,000 years + 4,000 years + 6 days = about 6,000 years. There wasn’t even enough time for a pre-Adamic race to have existed before Adam, so how can you possibly say the age of the earth can’t be explained without one?

“9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?”

Three problems here. First, non sequitor. What do dinosaurs have to do with a pre-Adamic race? Second, it’s a loaded question. How do you know there were no dinosaurs on Noah’s ark? I don’t know about you, but I haven’t seen his cargo manifest. Third, animals go extinct ALL THE TIME. Current estimates are that between 200 and 2,000 species go extinct every year. We’re losing them all the time. The last dodo was sighted in 1662. The last tasmanian tiger died in 1936. We’re still trying to save tigers, rhinos, and others. Reasons for extinction include climate change, overhunting by man, disease, and low availability of adequate food sources. Ecosystems are extremely delicate, and unfortunately, it seems the dinosaurs couldn’t find their niche, so they died out.

“10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?”

This is why Adam is required. If we are all descended from Adam, we can inherit his sin. If we’re not, where does it come from? No Adam, no original sin. Even atheists know this, so it’s embarassing how many Christians don’t.

So tell me, Troy, what is there that can’t be explained without a pre-Adamic race? Your pre-Adamic race DIDN’T exist. It is yet another lie from the pit of Hell, designed to draw people away from God. Repent of it, learn your Bible, start preaching the truth.
Reply June 12, 2020
Girlie Grimaldo Laña

We should first learn how the bible is written a big help when you try to read the book of elliot friedman in the book title who wrote the bible
Reply June 12, 2020
Eugin Robinson

Jay Zeke Malakai do you BELIEVE that earth is just 6000 years old, common.
Reply June 12, 2020
Robert Jarvis

Jay Zeke Malakai where does God say Adam was the first man created?
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Eugin Robinson yes, I believe the earth is around 6,000 years old.
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Robert Jarvis 1 Corinthians 15:45
Reply June 12, 2020
Robert Jarvis

Jay Zeke Malakai you mean where it says ” first man Adam” ? Do you think it meant literally? Cause then we would have to say Jesus was the ” last man” wouldn’t we? Cause it says that too. Or maybe it wasn’t meant like that , but as Adams status as the first man WITH A SPIRIT, and is the father of all those WITH A SPIRIT- cause having a SPIRIT is what distinguish Ed him above all other creatures right?
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Yes, I do think, as did the entire Church for the first 1,700 years, that it means literally. It explicitly says “the first man Adam”, and it nowhere says the first man with a spirit. Where are you finding that phrase? It’s not in there. Neither is the phrase “Jesus is the last man”. It says He is the last Adam. That in no way contradicts the fact that Adam, whom it explicitly says was the first man, was indeed the first man, especially since we see Adam’s creation, from dirt (not from a monkey) in Genesis 1 and 2, on day 6, where he was alone according to Genesis 2:18, which is why his wife, Eve, the “mother of all the living” (Genesis 3:20) was created. Furthermore, in Christ’s genealogy, Adam is the son of God. My interpretation is consistent with all of scripture. Yours requires a fair few words to be changed.

I also want to point out the horribly racist implications of your interpretation. According to you, Adam was the first man with a spirit, yet biologically, his parents would be almost identical to him. That’s just how reproduction works. People make baby people. So, there must be people without spirits in your worldview. So maybe the Evolutionists you’re borrowing from were right when they killed and kidnapped black people and put them in zoos in the 19th century. Or maybe we can just let the Bible speak: God has made from one blood ALL the nations (Acts 17:26), because we are all descended from one man, and one woman. The only reason there is a last Adam is because there is a first. Anything else is heresy.
Reply June 12, 2020
Robert Jarvis

Jay Zeke Malakai wow! You sound pretty zealous- but how did you manage to bring in racism? More later
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

My God cared enough about me to nail His Son to a cross so I can have eternal life. Yeah, I’m zealous for His word.

How did I bring in racism to a discussion about RACE? How do you think? It’s the logical implication of your view. If we are, as the Bible says, of one blood, then there can be no racism, but if Adam is distinct spiritually from pre-Adamites, yet not biologically, then some races can be superior to others.

Reply June 12, 2020
Yehoshua Marion

This is among the most ridiculous things I have read in my lifetime.
I am pretty sure this article comes from the creator of SpongeBob.
note to editor “please read the Bible before making such comments”.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

The only ridiculous thing here IS that you cannot explain the 10 things without GAP theory You see if you could have you would have just explain them and be done thus disproving the theory Instead you just talking accomplishing nothing
Reply June 12, 2020
Yehoshua Marion

Troy Day There’s nothing theologically sound in this they just made a bunch of stuff up that they think the Bible says that the Bible does not say it all and said that you have to have a gap theory to explain them well of course you do because you’re putting stuff in the Bible that isn’t there!

Reply June 12, 2020
Drew Osborne

there is no pre-Adamic race; it’s heresy, otherwise the word of God is a lie. That would mean we’re not saved and could never be

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

if its IN the Bible cant be heresy except if you are calling the BIBLE heresy – is this what you think ?

Reply June 12, 2020
Joshua Steindl

Most of those 10 things can be explained as working in the spiritual realm not the physical. The only time we see Satan taking physical form is the snake in the garden.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

I challenge you to try Gary Micheal Epping has seen MANY before you try and fail BUT if you think you are SUCH a great theologian give it a try will ya ?
Reply June 12, 2020
Joshua Steindl

I think you have the burden of proof to claim that satan and the angels had human bodies before Adam and Eve. That’s not in the Bible.

Reply June 12, 2020
Christopher Carver

Whoever wrote this needs to proof read their stuff.
Gen 6 is the answer to a couple of those but not worth of my time to refute this because anyone that believes it is blind.

Reply June 12, 2020
Varnel Watson

instead of proofreading the BIBLE just disprove ALL 10 with the BIBLE and be done Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele

Reply June 12, 2020
Christopher Carver

Number 5 and 7 Why do the Bible tells us…that is really bad English.
Reply June 12, 2020
Christopher Carver

Man thanks for posting this..it is a great testament of the type of knowledge you guys put out..100% unscholarly
#flawedlogic
Reply June 12, 2020
Christopher Carver

And honestly who cares if you want to commit eisegesis be my guest. You will only fool the foolish.
Reply June 12, 2020
Phill Kofi

The creation story is allegorical, its meant to teach us truth. It was never meant to be taken literally, as if it happened.

Reply June 12, 2020
Donovan Loreman

It is not allegorical. It is a statement of fact. Even science has come to the conclusion that we decended from “two people”
Reply June 12, 2020
Kaale Oscar

Jesus took it literally
Reply June 12, 2020
Phill Kofi

Kaale Oscar he was using what they believed to teach them.

Reply June 12, 2020
Chester Higgs

are you saying we can not explain the fall if we don’t believe in the gap theory?
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Let me ask this question.
If the book of Genesis is to be taken literally, the the fact that the devil tricked Eve is a lie.
Genesis says the serpent, who was the most subtil of all the beasts of the field God created, spoke to Eve.
So which is it?
Genesis is literal and there were only two people and the devil never tricked Eve.
Or.
Genesis is symbolic like Revelation and needs to be interpreted. And if interpreted then there is possibility of other people at the time.
Can’t have the cake and eat it too guys.

Reply June 12, 2020
Donovan Loreman

Assuming your assumption, how can the devil not trick eve through the serpent? You can’t have your false equivocation and still stand.
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Because the Bible says that Eve was tricked by the serpent, not satan through the serpent. Even the original Hebrew word says simply snake, serpent.
So you tell me, which one does the BIBLE tell YOU it was? Pick one. Don’t try to prove me wrong with a question that doesn’t fit.
What is your choice? Is Genesis literal or figurative???? It cannot be both.
Reply June 12, 2020
Andrew Ingrams

Michael B Reimann spirits can occupy animals how else would the serpent been able to speak!
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Only example of any animal speaking was God through Balaams donkey. That theory holds no water. the pig did not say anything when Jesus sent the demons into it.
Reply June 12, 2020
Samuel Salinas

Michael B Reimann those spirits did speak through that man though, and they moved those pigs ? to jump in to the water. Why wouldn’t the donkey speaking hold no water btw? I’m just chiming in.
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

The donkey was God speaking. There has to be willingness to allow a spirit to speak through. There is just no basis anywhere for a spirit speaking through an animal other tha God through the donkey.
Reply June 12, 2020
Tyler Green

Michael B Reimann well donkey couldn’t have been God speaking, because He asks why Balaam struck him. Balaam did not strike God. The Lord opened the mouth of that donkey, and it spoke.
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Tyler Green
The LORD either way.
The devil can’t do that.
God had to open the mouth of the donkey for it to speak.
If this is the case, then God opened the mouth of the serpent that tricked Eve…..
Reply June 12, 2020
Tom Ryans

Serpent is Satan:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world-he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Revelation 12:9, ESV)
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Tom Ryans
Then why is he called one of the created beasts of the field in revelation??
In the age of the preserved books of the Bible, the Pentateuch is not the oldest.
Job is the oldest manuscript known to man.
And again. If the serpent is symbolic of satan then Adam is symbolic as the first man, and thus confirmed as the first spiritual man.
There can’t be literal and symbolic writing in same book. It has to be one or the other.
Reply June 13, 2020
Tom Ryans

Michael B Reimann It is unclear if Satan possessed the serpent, took the form of the serpent or something else, but God certainly cursed the serpent as if it were real and the role the serpent played is exactly the role of Satan- getting us to doubt God and not trust His word. Even if the serpent was symbolic of Adam being tempted, I don’t see why you would need to come to the conclusion that Adam must be symbolic as well. Using imagery to describe Satan tempting someone, doesn’t mean the individual being tempted doesn’t exist.

Reply June 12, 2020
Chris Arevalo

The questions there are poorly constructed, baseless and founded on pure speculation. It’s an attempt to provide an answer that scripture did not intend give. It’s going outside the bounds of God revelation, and it’s a very very dangerous theology. It’s basically a series of questions to create doubt where the author didn’t even provide a solution or an explanation for a proper scholarly critique.

Reply June 12, 2020
Chris Arevalo

I take that back. Scripture does talk about the fall and its effects. It talks about the fall of Satan and his angels but not exactly when it happened.

Reply June 12, 2020
Joshua Seabolt

1:while I question what a “lost soul” is referring to the answer is that if it means Ghosts of a dead person, it doesn’t exist, or if it means someone who isn’t saved, the answer is still God.

2.Demons are just fallen angels

3. Satan hasnt truly fallen yet. Yet is a ruler over the earth currently, he shall truly fall once and for all in the end at the day of judgment.

4. He’s an extremely good liar and persuader as well as angels have just as much freedom as man. And thus they will fall for their rebellion with him in judgement

5. It doesn’t?

6. God separated order from Chaos in the first three days. He likely did this for many reasons, one of which to my knowledge is to show he has power over that which cannot be controlled (chaos typically can never be controlled).

7. It doesn’t.

8. Age of the earth is like 6k to 10k years old. People want to claim longer with their faulty methods such as carbon dating which runs off of a bunch of variables, however looking at the rate which the universe is expanding, it tells us that it is much younger than any method that they have tried.

9. We lived with dinosaurs. They are in the Bible if your paying attention. The reason you can’t find the word “dinosaurs” is because it doesn’t exist in ancient Hebrew language. Typically words such as “beasts” were used instead. The boat likely got pillaged, burned down, nature just broke it down, whatever the case. It’s completely logical to think we wouldn’t be able to find it.

10. Bruh the gap theory makes no sense because the wages of sin is death. Get on my level m8. To accept thousands of years of death is to deny that sin has consequences.

What’s next?

Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Demons are NOT fallen angels.
Angels have physical bodies, demons are always seeking a body.
Angels have access to Heaven, the Bible says demons are always roaming the earth.

Also, please explain why the original word used for darkness in Genesis 1:2 literally means darkness, misery, destruction, DEATH, ignorance, sorrow, and wickedness……

All these things were HERE already before God even said let there be light. And when God DID say let there be light in this world, it was Jesus He was speaking of. All the celestial luminaries come much later.

Care to clarify?
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Michael B Reimann if demons aren’t angels, why does Jesus say Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)? If the original word for darkness in Genesis 1:2 means all the things you say, why do no reputable translations in any language say so? If the things were already there, where did they come from, and why did God lie when He said all things were made through Christ? Your view is unsustainable.
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

If hell is reserved for demons, why did Jesus just not send them there instead of into pigs?
Why do no translations use those original words? Because most of what you believe is guided by doctrines of men throughout history.
Can YOU tell me why the Bible says a beast of the field tricked Eve and not satan?
And where did these things come from??? The Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and it was void and had darkness, Real darkness. AT SOME POINT after the beginning, God said let there be light. How much time transpired in between?? Do we know? God created all those things when He created the earth. He said so in Isaiah.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, I create evil, I the LORD do all these things.

Care to expound? When Adam fell, he inherited the death and wickedness from the earth he was formed from, as that was the state of things before God connected with Adam and put him in the garden.
Reply June 12, 2020
Joshua Seabolt

Michael B Reimann may you realize that Angels don’t have bodies right, they can manifest them but they don’t have them. Their spirits, spirits don’t have them
Reply June 12, 2020
Andrew Ingrams

Michael B Reimann the evil spirits asked not to be sent to hell because they now how awful it was, lucifer was in Heaven still but occupied the servant to lie to Adam and Eve, let there be light is the concept of light as let there be gravity etc,
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Andrew Ingrams
That holds no water either. Gravity as we know it could not happen until the moon was hung in the sky.
The original word means illumination or luminary. Who is the light of the world?????
yeah.

And the spirits asked not to go to hell because it was not their time…….There are several scriptures that mention both demons and angels in the same sentence. Look for them.
Reply June 12, 2020
Samuel Salinas

Michael B Reimann again just chiming in. Does the day He created the heavens and the Earth have to be years or could it have been an actual day where in part of it the Earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face thereof? Where in He said let there be light and there was? Could it be that the Idea of light was created that first day? I think it’s possible for Him to have created what we understand to project that light on the fourth day. It doesn’t mean the light hadn’t existed yet. As far as the serpent ? being the one God allowed to speak to them, you have some good points on what the scripture literally says. I can’t think of any verses that would imply Satan was the one using the serpent but I’m sure there are. Why would God curse the poor serpent ? after all, all good questions. But I take the whole Word of God literal and it all makes sense. Even the scriptures alluding to Christ wich men then didn’t understand and who today still don’t understand but are there to be searched out and understood. Hearing men of God preaching the Word of God, unfortunately for some who won’t with a willing heart, enlightens. Like the possibility of Jesus being that ladder that reached heaven, He being the the way to the Father and all. (I know I probably sound silly but..)
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael B Reimann

Samuel Salinas
Let their be light was God speaking Jesus into the world. It is how all creation afterwards is through Him.
Reply June 12, 2020
Kaale Oscar

Michael B Reimann are you saying God created Jesus?
Reply June 12, 2020
Kaale Oscar

Michael B Reimann Adam did not inherit death and wickedness from the earth but rather the earth was cursed because of Adam’s rebellion
Reply June 13, 2020
Kenny Herrera

Joshua Seabolt In my opinion I think demons are the spirits of the Nephilim.

Reply June 12, 2020
Joe A Smith

Pre Adamic Race gap theory Contradicts Scripture so it is false.
Reply June 12, 2020
Johnathon Morris

Balogne, stop believing the apocrypha is scripture.
Reply June 12, 2020
Tom Salamone

Fix the grammar and I’ll refute your argument
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

What if the preadamic race, was similar to our own?

I mean, we know about Angels & Demons and we know they had a beginning, right?

So what if lucifer, and his Angels and Michael the arch Angel and his hordes were men created in the image of God, and put to inhabit bodies like we do. However their time came, like all of ours will eventually come, they all died, and went from men to Angels because they no longer were attached to their bodies and the world became flooded by an act of God? I mean, think about it. Genesis does say that the earth was without form and darkness was on the face of the deep and the spirit of Gid hovered above the waters.

That imagery depicts a chaotic scene, some thing happened before before the earth became void. And it seems Noahs flood was not the first to cover the earth.

What if he decided to create a new race of man, that would be host to the spirit, to replace the loss of perhaps billions or more lost Angels. What if he created us to fill the void left by the rebellion?

Now, i am not saying i am correct or making any certain claims. Im just saying what if??

Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Ok. Counter theory: what if the Bible is true?
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

Jay Zeke Malakai no one is claiming is not, silly.

Im saying there are many things not written in it, even through out scripture books of the bible make reference to books not included in the bible. All we have is a limited understanding, the whole story was never revealed
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

Pre-Adamic race is impossible. Bible says he was the first man, and his wife is the mother of all the living. So either there is no pre-Adamic race, or the Bible is wrong.
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

Jay Zeke Malakai ok it says that, and that does not mean it is not true. Of course its true but what if that is only referencing our race of beings?

The bible does omit alot of info, and uses things like euphemism, dark sayings, parables, symbolism etc..

The bible does say seek and you will find. It always reserves its treasure and secrets for the diligent. A man reading scripture should be like a man searching for buried treasure, not just surface sand.

In other words… Go deeper
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

When you hit bedrock, take your broken shovel and go home. There’s a fine line between digging deeper and making crap up. Pre-Adamic races are a new concept invented because the Church got into bed with the atheists. That kind of spiritual adultery doesn’t lead to treasure, it leads to desolation. We need to go back to what scripture says, not what we want it to say.
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

Jay Zeke Malakai how is that spiritual adultery?? And where did you get the idea that the church has been inspired by atheist?

I mean, i get what you are saying for the most part. I get it but… How is it spiritual adultery? And atheistic inspired?? Just trying to understand what you mean and or are referencing. Perhaps i can learn something
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

The Bible says the Earth is around 6,000 years old, with Adam and Eve as the first two people (created on day 6), from whom we are all descended. The whole Church, near enough, believed that for a very long time. But in the Early 1800s, misotheist Charles Lyell wanted to “free the science [of geology] from Moses [the author of Genesis]”, so he started saying the earth is actually much older. Charles Darwin, another atheist, started saying man is descended from apes, which is why he said Genesis is just as wrong as the books of Hindus. The Church started borrowing ideas from them, abandoning the long held view as described in the Bible. Most Christians actually still believe the traditional view, but a lot of them say the Earth is millions of years old, and there was a whole world before Genesis 1, and there were people before and besides Adam etc. It’s all a result of atheism. If Lyell and Darwin and their like had never been born, no one would be talking about the mythical pre-Adamite race. We’d still believe the traditional view.
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

Jay Zeke Malakai ok, but can i ask you, isnt it possible the earth is way more older than one interprets the bible says it is? I mean… The bible does say a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, so how can you take fundamentalist interpretations to heart and ignore the facts that not everything in scripture is meant to be literal? 6000 years only shows the Jewish calender.
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

I want you to go to that verse (2 Peter 3:8), then read from verse 1 to verse 16.
Reply June 12, 2020
Yeshua Elijah

Jay Zeke Malakai ok i did, its the verse i qouted
Reply June 12, 2020
Jay Zeke Malakai

I know it is. Now read the verses it sits between. You’ll see why you quoted it out of context.

Reply June 12, 2020
Sam Sears

ummm no, the Jewish people already gave us an origin for demons, the slain nephilliam. It’s illogical to think a pre adamic race is the only solution to things brought up in the list.
Reply June 12, 2020
Michael Howell

Nope. There is no pre-Adamic race of humans. Sorry.

Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

not the question here now is it?
Reply June 13, 2020
Michael Howell

Troy Day what do you mean?

Reply June 12, 2020
Joao Esteves Gemal

I will re-write the title: 10 Things in the BIBLE that cannot be explained if you didn’t read THE BIBLE, then to explain your lack of reading you invent a satanic theory
Reply June 13, 2020
David Buyna

I believe the Bible does not support man before Adam. And that on judgement day it won’t be on the test. And that this doctrine is designed to create confusion and division thereby being fit to be cast out into the draught.

Mat_15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mar_7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Mat_16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

SO MUCH general talk and NO one yet dared to resolve at least 3 of the 10 in some other theological way WHY? is it because there is NO other way to answer these 10 simple questions

Reply June 13, 2020
David Thomas

1. Lost souls are everyone who dies outside of Christ. Creation groans as a result of Adam’s sin because the curse happened after Eden.
2. Demons are rebellious angels.
3. Satan most likely rebelled against God while Adam and Eve were in Eden.
4. They chose to rebel.
5. The “second story” is just an elaboration on the first. You don’t want to know the other theories as to why there are two. The one that’s widely held in scholarship is just as speculative but utterly destructive to a high view of Scripture as inspired by God.
6. The formless and void earth was a blank canvas. To use the Jeremiah citation to make it a destroyed earth is to import a later understanding because of theological bias, which is eisegesis, a cardinal sin of biblical interpretation. Unless you want to say that the phrase was introduced post-Jeremiah, which would be related to my point in #5.
7. It doesn’t.
8. Random speculation doesn’t answer that question better than a straightforward reading of the text which indicates that is created in a mature state, meaning that dating the earth through uniformitarian assumptions will yield inaccurate results.
9. Who says there weren’t dinosaurs on Noah’s ark?
10. Original sin comes purely from Adam. If it had something to do with a pre-Adamite race, then Paul is wrong, and the New Testament is false.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 “As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.”

You may think that speculations have explanative power, but if they’re not actually based in Scripture, then they’re worthless.
Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

David Thomas NICE try but just a try and a very bad one you would agree mainly avoiding the questions

1. Where lost souls come from? is the question We all know what they are SO tell us where they CAME from

2. Where the demons come from? – again not ARE but WHERE?

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? – – WHILE in the Garden does not work Just reading the BIBLE should tell you why but if you dont see it just ask and I will show it

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? – OK how did they chose to rebel? we see no place in the BIBLE except before adam and eve that this could happen Satan was already fallen when they got there

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? 0 you are confusing Gen 2 and 3 with what was asked in the question and explained in the article PLS READ the article FIRST

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? 0 IF SO give just ONE more example in the BILE where GOD did something FIRST on canvas before actually doing it AND/OR where GOD created something else that was with NO shape and void There are NO such other examples GOD does not work this way

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? – read the article

8. Age of earth? 0 you are avoiding a VERY important question to this article just like you are avoiding the other 9

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark? – just because you saw them when you visited the ark in KY and they told you they were very small babies in eggs doesnot make it TRUE 🙂 Truth of the matter there were NO dynos after the flood WHY?

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? – unclear avoidance ARE you saying original sin is a MYTH now? The original sin of THIS creation comes from Adam in this creation but WHO pushed him toward it? You are avoiding the matter again – HOW did SIN came to exist? Gary Micheal Epping

http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamite-world/

Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

Gary Micheal Epping here are some verses proving that earth was created inhabited not void like David Thomas claimed or a canvas We can take these 1by1 if its hard to follow as we have done before

The earth was created to be inhabited (Isa. 45:18), and was inhabited before the flood of Gen. 1:2 and the work of the six days of Adam‘s time (Gen. 1:3 — Gen. 2:25; Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2Pet. 3:5-7). The earth is called “dry land” in Gen. 1:10 which means that Gen. 1:1 could read, “In the beginning God created the heaven and dry land.” Since it was created dry, it stands to reason that the flooded condition of Gen. 1:2 was a curse, not a creative act. According to Ps. 136:6 the earth was originally “stretched above the waters,” not covered by them (see note, Ps. 136:6). This requires a pre-Adamite race whose sin brought such a curse.

In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation — which is also true of the two universal floods (Gen. 6:8 — Gen. 8:22; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; Jer. 4:23-26). All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Mt. 8:12; 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; 8:12; 9:2; 16:10; Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20). Could we say that Gen. 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn’t an option, then Gen. 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood. No one questions that Noah’s flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Gen. 1:2? See Lucifer’s Flood.
Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

David Thomas this will help you gain perspective on Differences between Lucifer’s flood and Noah’s flood that seems like you hear about for the first time Gary Micheal Epping and myself have talked about it a lot before and can repeat the talk

http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/differences-between-lucifers-flood-and-noahs-flood/

Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

David Thomas Houston can you hear us We lost contact with you 8hrs ago Is everything OK ?
Reply June 13, 2020
David Thomas

Troy Day Sorry, I only have so much energy to devote to arguing on Facebook over strange biblical interpretations

Reply June 13, 2020
Varnel Watson

BABY DYNO what?

David Thomas who asked

9. Who says there weren’t dinosaurs on Noah’s ark?

and the rest of yall who said BABY DYNO on the ark blah blah

Philip Williams here is ONE of the original few who discovered Noah’s ARK and he will tell ya right here and no there was NOT a SINGLE dyno bone on it – no baby no nothing

NEXT Gary Micheal Epping ppl here will start claiming HEAVEN is NOT the original planet of the apes #crazy
Reply June 14, 2020
Lara Emilia Gemma

Scott Priest thoughts
Reply June 14, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Genesis 1:1 could be read this way. “ In the beginning of time (pass,present, future) God created the space ( heaven=length, width, height) and the matter(earth=solid, liquid, gas). Can I get an Amen
Reply June 14, 2020
Barnabas Pandit

I really would like to talk you that Genesis 1 is creation list and Genesis t)chapter 2 is details of chapter 1
Reply June 25, 2020
Jason Corkran

All 10 of those things have been explaimed quite easily and consistently throughout church history. Oh pentecostals…. such a mess.

Reply June 25, 2020
Varnel Watson

if this was the case you would have explained them by now instead of explaining them away for the lack of actual Biblical explanation which seems you are still lacking
Reply June 25, 2020
Jason Corkran

I simply did not wish to spend the time on refuting every point in the list. I simply think it’s a silly assertion to say that those things can’t be explained, when, in fact, theologians have been explaining them for 1000s of years. My comment concerned the assertion that the things could not be explained. My comment was not purposed to explain the things.
Reply June 25, 2020
Varnel Watson

Jason Corkran then retire from it – no need for more

Reply June 25, 2020
ירמיהו קהלת

1- All souls are lost (from the time-domain perspective) before they are saved.

2- Demons have no explanation in the Scriptures, yet it would seem that they would be the spirits of the Nephilim, the human-angel hybrids.

3- Satan fell between the first and second day (there could be a gap, but there cannot be a pre-Adamic race because death was brought by Adam’s sin).

4- They rebelled against God by joining league with the Accuser.

5- The Scriptures do not tell of two creation events.

6- The Earth was not made “תהו ובהו” as God declares in Isaiah 45:18

7- The Bible does not teach two flood narratives.

8- Since Adam, ~6,000 years. Refer to post script in #3 for total number.

9- There would be dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark, I have no idea where you got this idea from.

10- Adam, the figurehead of mankind, chose to transgress against God’s Law, and thus forced death to be introduced as a means of regaining complete fellowship with God. Original sin (our sin nature) is inherited because of & Adam.

Reply June 25, 2020
Varnel Watson

lests start with #3 death to THIS creation was brought in by Adam. Jesus spoke of the FALL of the worldS – you just opened a new can with your 1 sentence approach there

Also BY admitting a GAP is needed for satans fall you admit there is NO other Biblical time or explanation for he fall except a GAP

SO just by simple read on your comment you agree more than you disagree with gap theory We can pick them up one by one BUT I feel the result will be likewise
Reply June 25, 2020
ירמיהו קהלת

Unable to post the comment.

Reply June 25, 2020
James C. Morris

I am a strong proponent of what they call “the gap theory.” But the points presented here are lame at best, and in some cases appear to border on heresy.

Reply June 25, 2020
Varnel Watson

give us some better ones then or even better explain the ones who seem lame to you Should be easy
Reply June 25, 2020
Scott Stewart

James C. Morris
Don’t get weird on the Bible and the Bible won’t get weird on you. It’s very simple. It’s a 24 hour day, it was written as “yom” that means a 24 hour day…. take it literally and there is nothing that can break the Bible. I’d challenge anyone on any Biblical situation.
Reply June 25, 2020
James C. Morris

Scott Stewart I completely agree with you.

Reply June 25, 2020
Ron Shephard

I don’t believe in a gap theory and most of these things can be explained quite easily if you think a little outside the box and ponder what the bible doesn’t say about this topic. I’m a creationist but I’m not a young earther.
Reply June 26, 2020
Craig Somersett

Troy Day
Hi Troy,

Of the 10 questions you claim cannot be answered, numbers 5, 7 and 9 are erroneous.

//5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?//

It doesn’t. Genesis 1 provides the big picture while chapter 2 focuses on the events involved in the creation of man.

//7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?//

It doesn’t. Genesis 6 through 8 provides the only historical narrative of the flood, although a poetic account in Ps. 104 also alludes to this (much as the song after crossing the Red Sea in Exodus chapter 15 gives a poetic review of the historical account of chapter 14).

//9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?//

There were dinosaurs on the Ark. The Bible is very specific… 2 of every land animal:

YOU MUST BRING INTO THE ARK TWO OF EVERY KIND OF LIVING CREATURE FROM ALL FLESH, MALE AND FEMALE, to keep them alive with you… TWO OF EVERY KIND WILL COME TO YOU so you can keep them alive.
Genesis 6:19‭-‬20 NET

Common sense dictates that they would be young, smaller representatives and the Ark was well able to accommodate all God sent to Noah.

The vast majority of the dinosaurs were drowned in the flood, leaving their remains in the fossil record. Those which came off the Ark had to adapt to their new environment, including the 500 yr ice age which followed the flood and later being hunted by each other and man (who would naturally come to see them as a threat).

Two others are easily addressed.

//6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?//

The earth began as an enormous sphere of water as the Spirit hovered over the deep. Genesis 1:2

God made Adam from the dust of the earth. You begin with something formless, and then give it shape and function. It’s a perfectly reasonable way for God to initiate His creative process.

//8. Age of earth?//

Roughly 6,000 years. This is obtained using simple math and the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. There were approximately 2,000 years from Adam’s creation to Abraham; another 2,000 until Christ’s birth; it’s been almost 2,000 since Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection.

Since Luke’s gospel traces Jesus’ ancestry straight back to an historical Adam, the earth cannot be older than 7,000 years.

https://www.icr.org/article/how-young-earth-applying-simple-math-data-provided

This is also in keeping with Christ’s teaching that male and female were created “in the beginning of creation” – not at the end of a multi-billion year process.

But FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION HE MADE THEM male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mark 10:6‭-‬8 NET

The other questions invite speculation in areas on which the Bible is silent. Basing doctrine on such a weak foundation is tenuous at best and deceptive at the worst.

Reply June 26, 2020
Varnel Watson

no need Assemblies of God has Restored Our Young Earth Position http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/assemblies-of-god-restore-our-young-earth-position/

Reply June 26, 2020
Alan Yusko

the gappers need to learn the bible.. in gen 1:1 God created all.. then from verse 2 till the end of the chapter.. He tells us how He did it.. it is just not complex and no need for a foolish gap..

Reply June 26, 2020
Varnel Watson

everyone has a choice – you can be a gapper or an yapper

Reply June 26, 2020
Philip Williams

Oh my, those fellows are liberals.

Reply June 26, 2020
Varnel Watson

liberal dems who want to get rid of the gap

Reply June 26, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

they are all explainable with proper theology. Pentecostals do not have that.
Reply June 26, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

1. Where lost souls come from? which lost souls? those under the OT who were unfaithful to the covenant were lost, souls.

2. Where the demons come from?- evil pre flood people, lost souls.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? between Gen 1;31 and Gen 3;1

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? they listened to him and made a free-will choice to reject God’s sovereignty.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? ans, Jewish thought, conclusions first details second. gen 2 are the details.

6. Why was the earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? gravity had to exist or the water would have evaporated into space. question of translation.

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? there are not two flood narratives,

8. Age of earth? still a question “in the beginning God had created the heavens and the earth, and the earth had been without form and empty” it is possible the earth was created before God said “let there be light”

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark? God only told Noah to take certain animals. not all.

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? Read the apostle Paul. “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin” it all comes from Adam. Pentecostals need good thelogical training. Strongs systematic theology. would do.

Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

if you ARE indeed unclear which lost souls – pls reconsider posting under OPs you do not yet understand

#2 which flood? Noahs or satans – pls read some more
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

Troy Day there is no satans flood.
Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz hahahah so where did LOST SOULS come from? you are in a circular logic motion this morning
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

Troy Day what lost souls are you talking about, be specific.
Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz circular logic again – let me catch up on my SAT work and I will sum up the mistakes yall 2 made in your comments Avoiding the issue is not resolving it
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

Troy Day there is no real issue you are making an argument I have things to do right now so I am off.
Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz actually there is. You claim to have answered the questions BUT you do so by including another gap b/c you cannot explain satan falling without a gap Nothing After Gen 1 does not say about satan fallen He is already fallen in Gen 3 so where do you get this info? NOT from the BIBLE thats for sure Now there is nothing wrong with holding your position when your position is right BUT when your position is wrong it needs to be corrected and I will do so in a bit Thank you
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

Troy Day use a little logic, if everything God created is good at Gen 1;31 satan must have fell by the time of Gen 3;1 the gap theory is just that a theory which is not provable.
Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz You posting your circular logic after I ask you to pls wait a bit will not help you theological problem Now pls respect my privacy in the next 1-2hrs I will take special time to answer your theological dilemma and help you with your confusion on this subject from OP
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

What is the Gap Theory?
Gap Theoryaudio
Question: “What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?”

Answer: Genesis 1:1–2 states, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolution and the day-age theory, is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory.

In young-earth creationism, Genesis 1:1 is seen as a summary of the complete chapter 1 in the Hebrew storytelling form. God created the heavens and the earth. Then verse 2 begins a detailed breakdown of the step-by-step process that verse 1 summarizes. However, the statement that “the earth was formless and empty, [and] darkness was over the surface of the deep” (Genesis 1:2) can be puzzling. The idea that God created a useless and shapeless earth is an uncomfortable position for some conservative theologians, and this leads them to the gap theory, or an old-earth perspective.

According to conservative proponents of the gap theory, Genesis 1:1 describes the original creation of God—perfect in every way. Then, between verses 1 and 2, Satan rebelled in heaven and was cast out. Satan’s sin “ruined” the original creation; that is, his rebellion brought about its destruction and eventual death, and the earth was reduced to its “formless and empty” state, ready for the “re-construction.” The length of time involved—the size of the “gap”—is not specified but could have lasted millions of years.

Of course, Satan must have fallen before Adam did; otherwise, there would have been no temptation in the garden. Young-earth creationists say that Satan fell sometime after Genesis 1:31. Gap creationists say that Satan fell between Genesis 1:1 and 2.

One difficulty of the gap theory is that it requires that creation suffer death and destruction before Adam’s fall. Romans 5:12 says, “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.” The gap theory counters by positing two worlds. Satan’s sin brought death to the original creation, whatever that was like; and Adam’s sin brought death to the re-creation, the realm of mankind. Through Adam’s sin, evil entered our world and the realm of man was cursed. But rebellion already existed outside the realm of mankind (in the spiritual realm), since Satan and his angels had already fallen (Isaiah 14:12–14; Ezekiel 28:12–18). Sin could not enter the realm of man until man chose it. And Satan, via the serpent, successfully tempted man to make that choice.

Objections to the gap theory include the idea that, if something important had occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 2, God would have told us so, rather than leave us to speculate in ignorance. Also, Genesis 1:31 says God declared His creation to be “very good”—a statement difficult to square with the theory that evil already existed because of Satan’s fall in the “gap.”

It is possible to hold to a literal, six-day creation week and still hold to the gap theory—the gap theory does not require evolution to be true, since the gap falls before the events of Day One in Genesis 1:3. And that’s why some conservative scholars do believe the gap theory, although its acceptance has waned since the days of proponents C. I. Scofield and J. Vernon McGee.

However, many of those who hold to the gap theory do so in order to reconcile old-earth, evolutionary theories with the book of Genesis. But it seems to be a strained reconciliation. The plain reading of Genesis 1 does not at all intimate a length of time between the first two verses. Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2 informs us that, when He first created the earth, it was formless, empty, and dark; it was unfinished and uninhabited. The rest of Genesis 1 relates how God completed the formless, empty with creation and forming of the earth.

Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz just like ירמיהו קהלת from the other day you are substituting one gap for another within satans fall No problem there except yall are putting the gap in the wrong place in Gen from where several of the 10 points remain unexplained or just simply avoided for better word in yalls commenting TRY again

Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

I see no gap in the wrong place after creation, everything was very good, everything! no fall of satan or 1/3 of the angels yet
Reply June 27, 2020
Varnel Watson

Lawrence Apitz you said you see a GAP where satan fall and I sad your gap is in the wrong place Pls prove me wrong will ya
Reply June 27, 2020
Lawrence Apitz

I made my point already. satan fell between gen 1;31 and gen 3;1. the gap theory tries to put his fall before gen 1;1 this is not a reliable idea, it never has been and promotes endless arguments like the one you are trying to draw me into.

Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

From time to time I’ll hear people that say I only believe in the King James Version , some will even say the King James Version was good enough for Jesus and good enough for Apostle Paul it’s good enough for me, the problem with thinking that is the King James Version only came out in 1611 neither Jesus or Apostle Paul ever carried a 1611 King James Version they didn’t even speak English then , you need to understand that John Wycliffe had a Bible before the 1611 King James Version, which was written in 1320-1384 William Tyndall had a Bible out also before the KJV in 1530 then they was the Miles Coverdale Bible also before the KJV 1535 then the Matthews Bible in 1537 then the Great Bible in 1539 The Geneva Bible in 1560 then the Bishops Bible in 1568 then the Douay Bible 1609-1610 Then the King James Version so you see to say that it was what Jesus used wouldn’t be correct he used the Hebrew Aramaic scrolls ancient Hebrew, some will say they don’t use modern translations you have to understand they put the wording to fit our language of today .
Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

I heard Howard C. Estep teach on this back in the early 1970’s on his t. v. program called “The King is Coming”.

Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

it still is…

Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

Beasts of the field.
Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

There is NOTHING in Scripture requiring a Pre-Adamic Race Gap Theory. Such is HERESY.
It’s high time we embrace the Creation week for the incomprehensible, supernatural, one time event that it was.

Consistent biblical exegesis reveals the following:
Six literal days.
Six thousand years.
A global flood.
This is the Word of the true and living God.

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess well Ricky Grimsley has said there is plenty but words must be backed by the BIBLE

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Finis Dake teaches that in his Bible.

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Jerome Herrick Weymouth well MANY did before him
Scofield suggested then I think we have Larking before him
Duane L Burgess Ricky Grimsley John Mushenhouse
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Jerome Herrick Weymouth Then Finis Dake is a false teacher.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Yes, many have erred regarding the Creation account.
Even Dr. R C Sproul confessed that he erred regarding Creation for many years. He corrected his error to six literal 24 hour days.
That’s why we exegete Scripture. Man is fallible.

So, again, There is NOTHING in Scripture requiring a Pre-Adamic Race Gap Theory. Such is HERESY.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

I believe six literal 24 hour days.
pre-Adama does not teach against six literal 24 hour days.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

He’s got some junk in his footnote, and then there are no perfect footnotes in any study Bible. The comments are those either cessationist or non-cessation, some are Arminianism influences or of Calvinist. I just recently read in a Bible commentary that the gifts have been withdrawn, with that I know that is a false statement. Or Paul’s thorn in the flesh the scripture says that he has received a thorn in the flesh a messenger of Satan sent the buffet me and people will tell you especially certain so-called enlightened Bible scholars will say that that was not a demon Spirit but yet the scripture before your eyes says it was a messenger of Satan. Now you figured that one out.

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Let me throw this out there. The last Ice Age was in 10, 800 BC and The Garden of Eden took please about 4000 BC. That leaves a 6000+ year gap. A gap that fits between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and fits that description. There was a deluge at the end of the Ice Age that covered the planet in water. We find remnants of architecture/cities under the oceans to this very day. We know of some islands that have parts connected to continents that were once completely above water. They say the ocean waters rose by 400 ft. Even if the end of the Ice Age cataclysm occurred in 9600 BC, we are still looking at nearly a 6000 year gap. The Bible does not tell us every single detail of everything. Furthermore, some scholars believe Genesis tells of multiple creation events, not just one single event. Moses may not have known all of the details. It is no coincidence that every major culture has cataclysm/floods myths that are very similar. We very well may be reading of two different floods, when we read of Noah’s flood, which may not have been as bad as the aforementioned deluge ELE. We do not know. We have a genealogy leading up to Noah, so it would be hard to say these events were the same flood. But it is suspicious. God did say He would not destroy the Earth by water again. Is this because He did it twice already? Or just the once?
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

1. Where lost souls come from?

Lost souls came about through Adam’s sin. Romans 5:12

2. Where the demons come from?

Demons come from the fall of Lucifer.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

Some time after creation of the heavens and earth.

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

They were decieved by Lucifer and sided with him in his rebellion.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

The Bible does not tell of two creations.

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

The earth was created formless and void then over six days land and sea were divided, vegetation was created, then fish, birds, animals, and man.

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

The bible only tells of one flood narrative.

8. Age of earth?

Around 6,000 years

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?

There were dinosaurs (dragons) on Noah’s ark and two were named in the book of Job.

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Sin came into the world by Adam’s transgression.

Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey so basically GAP theory
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day nope l, no gap. I answered each objection with no gap.

Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

All are easily explained without the gap theory.
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

The Pre-Adamic Race Gap Theory is damnable heresy.

Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess NO

Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

https://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/

Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

pressious little truth here
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day you just don’t like it confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance. I could say the same with your views. Don’t be so dismissive. He is not stupid. Assertions are also not arguments.

Reply April 22, 2023
Anonymous

the first creation of man was the Neanderthals and when Adam was created was when God created Homosapiens. the people in the land of nod were cavemen.
Reply August 1, 2023
Anonymous

Absolutely false.
There is nothing anywhere in Scripture that allows for a Pre Adamic Race Gap Theory.
This is a complete lie, deceiving and being deceived.

That’s the problem with the aberration of Pentecostalism: no understanding of biblical hermeneutics or exegesis.

Reply August 1, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess you cannot prove ANY of these TOP 10 without GAP theory – none of them. Except if you accept Darwinism of course that is
Reply January 15, 2024
Adam Theman

The biggest issue there is when it comes to the Bible is all of the non-WHITE races assume the Bible is for them too. It’s not.

Exactly opposite of what these anti-CHRIST, apostate, Judeo Christian pastors have taught for the last 140 years, the Bible is to, about, & for the first, second, & third WHITE RACES ONLY. And in 5…4…3…2…1…”You’re a racist.” No, JESUS is racist. Keep reading.

(MATTHEW 13:11) (ERV) “JESUS answered, “ONLY YOU” can know the secret truths about God’s kingdom. Those “other people” cannot know these secret truths.” JESUS is racist.

(MARK 4:11) (VOICE) “But the crowds—mixed multitudes, other races, I speak to “them” in parables.” JESUS is racist.

In the first age of first WHITE RACE: (Jeremiah 4:23-27) (King James Version) “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of І︮С︯Х︮С︯ and by HIS fierce anger. For thus hath І︮С︯Х︮С︯ said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.”

Then…

(Genesis 1:26-28) “And God said, Let US make (Strong’s #120 (aw-dawm’) אָדָם, Adam, second white man (without article) in OUR image, after OUR likeness; GODHEAD, (Colossians 2:9) and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So (JOHN 1:1-3) JESUS the SON/CREATOR (Strong’s #1254 bara); “created” man in HIS own image, in the image of God “created” HE him; the male and the female created HE them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and “replenish” the earth, (Jeremiah 4:23-27) and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
And in 5…4…3…2…1…”You’re a racist.” No, JESUS is racist. Keep reading.

IN THE 3rd CREATION ACCOUNT IN “4004 B.C.” AFTER THE 7th DAY SABBATH, ON THE “8TH DAY” OF CREATION, FOR IT IS WRITTEN: (GENESIS 2:7-22) 𐤉 𐤄 𐤑 𐤄 – JESUS the SON/CREATOR “FORMED” (Strong’s H#119 האיש אדם; ETH-HA-ADAM: with the article); THE MAN ADAM from the dust of the ground & JESUS the SON/CREATOR blew into ADAM’S nostrils the “BREATH of LIFE,” ADAM & HIS CHOSEN SEED LINE DESCENDANTS “BECAME LIVING SOULS!“ THE MAN ADAM was the first WHITE MAN of a NEW WHITE RACE. And in 5…4…3…2…1…”You’re a racist.” No, JESUS is racist. Keep reading.

FOR IT IS WRITTEN: (Genesis 5:1) (JAMP) “The Bible is the book (written record, history) of the “GENERATIONS,” “DESCENDANTS,” “OFFSPRING” & “SEED LINE” of the CHILDREN of “THE MAN ADAM!” (JOHN WYCLIFFE BIBLE) ‎𐤉 𐤄 𐤑 𐤄 – JESUS FORMED “THE MAN ADAM” in the IMAGE & LIKENESS of GOD [HIMSELF].” The BIBLE SAYS 16 times ADAM’S SEED LINE DESCENDANTS CAN BLUSH. THE MAN ADAM IS WHITE.

ADAM’S CHOSEN SEED LINE DESCENDANTS were “FORMED” (Strong’s #3335: yatsar); “PRE-ORDAINED, PRE-DETERMINED, PRE-DESTINED,” & “ELECTED” for GLORY, REDEMPTION, SALVATION, HARPAZO, & to have ETERNAL LIFE with the LORD JESUS.

Where is the book, chapter & verse that says 𐤉 𐤄 𐤑 𐤄 – JESUS the SON/CREATOR created a black man or an Asian? Where is the book, chapter & verse that says 𐤉 𐤄 𐤑 𐤄 – JESUS the SON/CREATOR blew into a black or Asian mans nostrils the “BREATH of LIFE,” and they became LIVING SOULS? I have looked for 30 years. I can’t seem to find it. If you know where it is please let me know. OK? And in 5…4…3…2…1…”You’re a racist, and JESUS is too.” I’ve been trying to tell you that.

Today’s Antichrist army called Judeo Christian pastors teach the common belief that the Bible says ADAM was the first man on the Earth and ADAM is the progenitor of all different races of men through NOAH & HIS THREE SONS. And in 5…4…3…2…1…Why do you keep capitalizing ADAM and HIS DESCENDANTS? Do you think your special? Do you think just because you’re WHITE you’re above all of the other races on the face of the Earth?

(AMOS 3:2) (AMP) “I HAVE KNOWN, CHOSEN, CARED FOR, & LOVED “ONLY YOU ABOVE ALL FAMILIES/RACES ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.”
And in 5…4…3…2…1…You’re a WHITE SUPREMACIST. No, JESUS is a WHITE SUPREMACIST. Keep reading.

(1 PETER 2:9) “YOU ARE A CHOSEN RACE.” It’s ADAM’S ADAMIC WHITE RACE JESUS CHRIST would enter into this world through.

(ISAIAH 52:6) (FERRAR FENTON BIBLE) “Yet my RACE shall acknowledge MY POWER, on the day when I come, and exclaim, “HERE I AM.”

(JOHN 14:16-17) And I will pray to my FATHER and HE shall give the [ADAMIC ANGLO-SAXON] ISRAELITES HIS HOLY SPIRIT who will be with YOU FOREVER; 17 Even the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH; *** “WHOM THE WORLD (negroes, Orientals, Mexicans, redskin Indians, or anybody else) CANNOT RECEIVE.”

(John 17:9) I pray for [THEM], [ADAMIC WHITE JESRAELITES]: I don’t pray for *** “THE PEOPLE (negroes, Orientals, Mexicans, redskin Indians, or anybody else) OF THE WORLD.”

(Acts 16:6-7) “Now when the ADAMIC apostles PAUL, SILAS & others had gone throughout Phrygia (a region in north central Asia Minor) and the region of Galatia (the Roman province of North Galatia called the “old kingdom”) were forbidden by the [HOLY SPIRIT] to preach the Good News Gospel of salvation in Asia.”

“When they approached the province of Mysia, they tried to enter the province of Bithynia, but the “HOLY SPIRIT” would not allow it.”

JESUS the CHRIST (GODHEAD) DID NOT commission the ADAMIC PAUL, ADAMIC SILAS, or the Apostles to go convert the negroes, Orientals, Mexicans, redskin Indians, or anybody else because they aren’t HIS SHEEP.

(DEUTERONOMY 7:6) (JAMP) “For YOU are a HOLY PEOPLE “SET APART” to the LORD YOUR GOD; I have “CHOSEN YOU” out of all the “RACES/PEOPLE” on the face of the earth to be “MY PEOPLE” for “MY OWN POSSESSION” that is, “MY VERY SPECIAL TREASURE.”

(DEUTERONOMY 26:19) “The Α&Ω exalted the ISRAELITES HIGH ABOVE ALL of the other races.

(DEUTERONOMY 14:2) (ARAMAIC IN ENGLISH) “Because YOU are HOLY PEOPLE to the LORD JESUS YOUR GOD, and because the LORD JESUS YOUR GOD CHOSE YOU that YOU would be the MOST BELOVED PEOPLE TO HIM of all of the races/nations upon the face of the Earth.”

(MATTHEW 15:24) (AMP) “JESUS said, “I was commissioned by І︮С︯Х︮С︯, GOD ALMIGHTY, & [sent ONLY to the LOST SHEEP of the RACE/HOUSE of ISRAEL.” (1 PETER 2:9) (GREEK INTERLINEAR) “BUT YOU ARE A CHOSEN PEOPLE.”

(MATTHEW 10:5-6) (ΑΩ) “GO TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE/RACE OF ISRAEL.”

(MATTHEW 2:6) (ΑΩ) “I WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.”

(MATTHEW 13:38) (ΑΩ) “AND THE FIELD IS THE WORLD. THE GOOD SEED, THESE ARE THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM (ADAM); AND THE TARES/DARNEL ARE THE SONS OF THE EVIL ONE.”

(GENESIS 17:6-7) (LEGACY STANDARD BIBLE) “I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME & YOU & “YOUR SEED LINE” (RACE) AFTER YOU THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT TO BE YOUR GOD AND GOD TO YOUR SEED LINE (RACE) AFTER YOU.” JESUS IS THE GOD OF THE WHITE RACE ONLY!

(GENESIS 17:19) (1599 GENEVA) “But MY EVERLASTING COVENANT will I ESTABLISH with ISAAC.”

(GENESIS 21:12) “MY PROMISE, MY SOLEMN PLEDGE I WILL ESTABLISH WITH ISAAC.” WHO IS ISAAC?

(GENESIS 21:12) (VOICE) “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR COVENANT CHILDREN WILL BE NAMED.”

(ROMANS 9:7) “In ISAAC shall thy SEED [LINE] be called.”
(HEBREWS 11:18) “In ISAAC shall thy SEED [LINE] be called.”
(GENESIS 17:19) “In ISAAC shall thy SEED [LINE] be called.”
(GENESIS 21:12) “In ISAAC shall thy SEED [LINE] be called.”
(AMOS 7:16) (EASY ENGLISH BIBLE) “Don’t say that trouble is coming to ISAAC’S DESCENDANTS.”

Well who is ISAAC? (1902 JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA; “The SACAES, SCYTHIANS, ANGLO-SAXONS, GERMANIC-ISRAELITES are the LOST 10 TRIBES of ADAMIC ISRAEL.”

ISAAC is the Father of the ANGLO-SAXONS. The ANGLO-SAXONS have already fulfilled 100% of the END TIMES ISRAELITES PROPHECIES not blacks.

ANGLO-SAXON-ISRAELISM – JewishEncyclopedia.com; ANGLO-SAXON, GERMANIC ISRAEL IS BASED UPON AN EXTREMELY LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE OLD & NEW COVENANTS IN THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE AND BY THE EXTREMELY LITERAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THE END TIMES PROPHECIES & BLESSINGS SPOKEN OVER EPHRAIM & MANASSEH IN THE “ADAMIC WHITE RACE” IS BIBLE DOCTRINE!

JESUS the MOST HOLY made HIS EVERLASTING COVENANT with The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic, Nordic and Germanic Peoples are the SONS OF #119 ADAM, TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD ONLY.

ANGLO-ISRAELISM. TRIBES, LOST TEN – JewishEncyclopedia.com The identification of the Sacæ, Scythians, or ANGLO-SAXONS ARE the 10 Tribes of ISRAEL.

ANGLO-ISRAELISM. TRIBES, LOST TEN – JewishEncyclopedia.com The English satisfy the conditions of the Prophets regarding ISRAEL in strange tongue, having colonized the world, and worship JESUS the ONE TRUE GOD.”

Where is the book, chapter, & verse that says JESUS LOVES A universal church? It doesn’t exist.
Where is the book, chapter, & verse that says JESUS LOVES spiritual Israel? It doesn’t exist.
Where is the book, chapter, & verse that says JESUS replaced ISRAEL with spiritual Israel? It doesn’t exist.

(HEBREWS 8:8-12) (https://most-accurate-bible.com/Hebrews-8.html) “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE RACE/HOUSE OF JESRAELITES AND WITH THE RACE /HOUSE OF JUDAHITES. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE RACE/HOUSE OF JESRAEL. AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR THEOS (ALPHA & OMEGA), AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

(MATTHEW 7:14) (JAMP) “But straight is the gate & narrow & difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to EVERLASTING LIFE. There are ONLY A FEW who find IT.”

(ROMANS 1:16) “For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST.” It’s ok to be WHITE PEOPLE.

(2 SAMUEL 7:23) (CEB) “YOUR PEOPLE ISRAEL are the 1 RACE/NATION ON EARTH that GOD REDEEMED.”

(1 CHRONICLES 17:21) (NIRV) “LORD, GOD, WE ARE THE 1 RACE/NATION on earth YOU HAVE SAVED.”

(1871) https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1524-anglo-israelism ANGLO-SAXON, GERMANIC ISRAEL IS BASED UPON THE EXTREMELY LITERAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THE OLD & NEW COVENANTS, BY WHO RECEIVED THE BLESSINGS FROM THE EVERLASTING COVENANT AND THE PROMISES IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE. CHRISTIAN IDENTITY IS 100% BIBLE DOCTRINE.

(MATTHEW 5:19) (NEW AMERICAN BIBLE) “WHOEVER OBEYS & teaches these COMMANDMENTS will be called GREATEST in the kingdom of heaven.”

Reply November 14, 2023
Anonymous

yes its true Philip Williams Michael Chauncey Gary Micheal Epping Neil Steven Lawrence

Reply November 14, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day 2 Creation stories, 2 Flood stories. Too much liberal speculation.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams what are you talking about? John Mushenhouse
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day just liberal nonsense!
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams you make NO sense whatsoever being the most liberal pro catholic pro purgatory pro indulgencies NAR person I’ve ever met How can you condemn NAR churches like Bethel calling them cults but were selling realities to NAR founder from whom basically NARemerged?

Reply November 14, 2023
Anonymous

Pre Adamic race gap theory is damnable heresy. Nowhere supported by Scripture.
Reply November 14, 2023
Anonymous

1. Where lost souls come from?
A. Lost souls come from sin

2. Where the demons come from?
A. Demons were once angels.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
A. After Genesis 1:31 but before Genesis 3:1

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
A. They were seduced by the dragon, Lucifer.

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
A. It doesn’t.

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
A. The same reason every artist begins with formless clay and every painter begins with a blank canvas

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
A. It doesn’t

8. Age of earth?
A. About 6,000 years

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
A. There WERE dragons on Noah’s ark and in Job 40 & 41

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
A. Through Adam’s disobedience.

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey 1. Where lost souls come from?
A. Lost souls come from sin
pls explain for Philip Williams Kyle Williams Paul D Dobson and Gary Micheal Epping are you stating that demons have sinned in order to become demons – if so WHEN has this happened – were they created with bodies or what?
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day lost souls come from those who don’t have a Savior.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day lost souls are all those people who are still dead in trespasses and sins, enemies of God through wicked works. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why you must be born again.

In six days God created the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything in them. That includes Lucifer and all angels. Angels are spirits. They have bodies, but not earthly bodies formed from the dust of the ground. They, along with the rest of creation, were very good. (Genesis 1:31)

Lucifer was in Eden the garden of God. He was anointed to cover the garden. He was blameless until iniquity was found in him. He attempted to ascend into heaven, obsessed with the idea that he could be like God, but was cast down along with 1/3 of the angels who rebelled with him. This was a short battle. He fell like lightning from heaven.
He then turned his efforts to the temptation of mankind.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey lost souls in the BIBLE are NO all those people and are NOT people / humans @ all You are imposing on the original text something which is not even there – such is NOT a Biblical approach …
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Philip Williams
2. Where the demons come from?
A. Demons were once angels.

and WHEN did they become demons if you please can enlighten me just now 🙂
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day demons are powers under the authority of the Devil who rule over the flesh of men.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams Dominion was given to Adam not demons. Demons operate through deception, temptation, accusation and oppression. They have no God given authority over mankind.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey so you are a Dominion believer from NAR now /?
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey demons do have authority for a period of time, until Christ removes their authority.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams you really start to make NO theological sense here
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Yes!!!!!

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey IF what you are saying is TRUE which is not according to the BIBLE pls share WHEN

did the angels fall
and sin entered the world ?
When did the Ezek passage you quoted happened actually ?
Surely you do not think it happened during the days of Ezek?
Link Hudson Philip Williams Ben Bottke John Mushenhouse may be able to tell ya
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

how far did we get here Michael Chauncey
You could not defend your 2 points
Shall I kick into point 3 here?

Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Point #2: Angels rejoiced on Day 2 of creation. When God laid the foundation of the earth upon the seas. See Genesis 1:9-10, Job 38:7, Psalm 24:2.

In Genesis 1:31 Everything in heaven and earth was very good.

Lucifer was blameless, anointed, and living in the garden of Eden.

Lucifer fell sometimes after Genesis 1:31 but before Genesis 3:1
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey you are missing 1:2 of course
Everything was good in 1:31 but NOT in 1:2 was not
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day yes it most certainly was. “By one man’s disobedience sin ENTERED the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men because all have sinned.”
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey so are you saying sin entered before GEN 1 2 by which man are you talking about ? Because when we come to ch3 sin is already there to tempt Eve – how did it get there in your view?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day “Good” does not mean “pleasantly perfect.” It means that the creation would help men to see, know, and develop in themselves the character of God.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
A. After Genesis 1:31 but before Genesis 3:1 Michael Chauncey Ben Bottke Charles Lee Causey Sr. Robert Cox Billy Monroe Poff Duane L Burgess Ricky Grimsley

this is argument from silence – there is NOT a single verse After Genesis 1:31 but before Genesis 3:1 talking about satan NOT a single one that mentions it in any way shape and form OR showing any sin entering

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day good morning my brother, Lucifer was the King of Babylon I’ll approach it from the 3rd heaven view….…. 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
>>>>>> NOTICE vs 4 says King of Babylon….not and angel><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: <<<<<<<< NOTICE it says I will ascend into heaven <<<<<<< Which heaven 1st, 2nd or 3rd?… Read 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. If Lucifer was an angel which heaven was he in? In his “heart” he said he will ascend into heaven…He was never in the heaven where God resides, he was an exalted king of Babylon and I believe this was Nebuchadnezzar 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; >>>>>>>>> NOTICE IT SAYS “ MAN” not a fallen angel
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Fred Leon Stewart yes sir my dear brother THANK YOU so much
dear brother Michael Chauncey already pointed this out BUT
Failed to state WHEN in time
When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
GEN 1 2 gives a certain clue

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan and MORE importantly WHEN – nothing apart from GEN 1 2 that can pin point it chronologically Robert Cox Robert Borders Roger Lewis Robert Borders Roscoe Barnes III @everyone

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Rev 12:4 and 7 is also used to support the theory of a fallen angel……however….Revelation 12
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And……
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation The book of Revelations was writtenin the first century…The VERY first vs is the key to the book of Revelations……Revelation 1:1King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:,……NOTICE the words “things which must shortly come to pass”…..The book of revelations tells what will happen in the future….If an angel was cast from heaven it happened after the book of Revelations wS written……..The following is world history explaining Rev 12:4 and 7……… There was a “pagan” Rome before the “papal” Rome as we know now…in ad 395 the Roman Empire split in to two sections, the influential western half head quartered in Rome and the lesser Eastern half head quartered in Constantinople. By 485 AD there were 10 ethnic nations in northern Africa, Asia Minor, the Middle East and Europe…these made up most of the Roman Empire. In 476 AD these warlords attacked Rome overtaking emperor Romulus and the senate. …..In 538 AD Roman emperor Justinian (sp) in 538 decreed the POPE to over all churches. At this same time three of the ten “or approx 1/3rd of the nations “that over took Rome in 538 were subdued and controlled by Emperor Justinian. The 500 years from Jesus to 538 transformed the pagan Rome to the Papal Rome. I believe the tail of the dragon is this 500 year period; I also believe 1/3 of the stars were the three nations and their LEADERS which Papal Rome “the DRAGON” subdued. Men are spoken of as STARS in the bible…
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
….as you can see its not a angel drawing 1/3 of the other angels but 1/3 of the 10 nations that the Pope “dragon system” subdued ….
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day ask God and pray about it, if it’s for you to know He will reveal it to you, if not He will give you peace.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Randy Whitten just did
prayed asked GOD
GOD gave me gap theory and pre-trib as ANSWER – no disp Oscar Valdez
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

https://berniewade.company.site/War-on-Earth-p503751190
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

I answer most of these questions in this book. I would love your review of the book. Thank you.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day James 1;3
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day The fall of Satan and 1/3rd of the angels clearly is not a future event, but in the PAST if we listen to Jesus In Luke 10:18, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” This is in reference to Isaiah 14:12, “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” The fall of Satan that Jesus saw happened after Lucifer’s sin, before Adam and Eve’s temptation in the Garden of Eden.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Gary Micheal Epping I agree but the conclusion is not from Lk 10 Jesus did not say in the Greek that He/Jesus saw Satan fallen in the past
The Jesus seeing could have been prophetic in the future the way it is in the Greek – HOWEVER, there are factors clearly shown satan as fallen by Gen 1 and Michael Chauncey ought to look into them a bit more
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Randy Whitten yap Oscar Valdez
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Bishop Bernie L Wade I see a promo somewhere over there
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day fallen could indicate “to the earth from heaven above”. At a future time, during the trib Satan will no longer be in the prince of the powers of the earth. Most probably around the time when “Babylon has fallen”.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Terry Wiles it could and it should but as far as FUTURE more references are needed like Link Hudson indicated to Gary Micheal Epping
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

“He replied, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'” (10:18)

Though the tense of the Greek verbs is of some interest here,376 the real issue is whether Jesus is speaking of a vision he has seen of Satan’s fall or is speaking symbolically. Though this is a subject of intense scholarly debate, we can simplify it by observing that nowhere else does Jesus experience ecstatic visions, so it is likely that he is speaking figuratively.377
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Gary Micheal Epping it is NOT symbolic
when we start to interpret visions symbolic THEN they can mean anything Terry Wiles

the text is NOT easy to interpret
JESUS speaks in past for us but present for disciples then
he says he SAW – past tense
however it is not clear
did Jesus saw satan fall in the past and its a done deal
OR
did he saw in the past a prophetic vision referring to a near future

SIMILARLY JESUS SAID

Lk 22:31 Satan has demanded to have you all,[c] to sift you like wheat

that he demanded in the PAST expressed by present perfect
to do it in the past and its done
to do it in the past and its being done now
to do it in the past and it is going to be done

Usually when LUKE uses perfect or pluperfect but NOT past perfect it is act that still continues and often refers to future as in Lk 22

BUT when simple past is used as in Luke 10:18 its a done done deal in the past THEY key again is IF Jesus spoke of past or yet future event
the future event could have been
future for the disciples but past for us
future for the disciples and present for us
future for the disciples and future for us
The grammar is pretty clear but some basic Greek is needed to get into it Link Hudson Brett Dobbs Kyle Williams John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess Neil Steven Lawrence Nelson Banuchi Alan Smith
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day just look at the context of what was going on. They went out and preached the good news, they casted out demons and healed the sick. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Does Jesus mean he literally fell? Or is Jesus referring to Satans authority over that region as the principality of the air?
When the gospel is being preached, and people are coming to faith, when they get healed and demons are casted out, they have tasted the kingdom of God. They see the light and come out of darkness. Satan looses his power over them.
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs the context does not give you ANY of this information
You can explain more of course but it just dont give you this

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

most importantly here Duane L Burgess Michael Chauncey Charles Lee Causey Sr. 6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? – I man ALL GOD created was good and perfect right? Philip Williams were there TWO floods NOah and LUcifer – sure seems that way

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day without the Gap theory there are many things we can’t explain that require answers if we are going to convert those who hold to sciences now we must also keep in mind that Genesis is poetry and therefor should be approached with proper criticism. As for revelations there are several things we must keep in mind. We read the Bible as if the writers have all the info that we have looking backwards. Most of what they wrote is conflated by their personal views and knowledge at the time. If we keep that perspective there are many things that would make sense to us such as your theory above on the Roman Empire.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Ellis Carter Jr. You hit it on the head. God has given man all he needs to know at this time. the authors of the Bible gave us bits and pieces as best they could UNDERSTAND (Example: Daniel). Daniel did not understand what he was writing, but he did the best he could. Earlier man was not ready to understand our universe. He could not have understood until that we can have breakfast in London and breakfast in New York and breakfast in Seattle on the same day. ….If a day is to our Lord as is a thousand years is to man… with this knowledge we might understand a tiny more about the 6 days of creation. And…. on the sixth day (6000 years) he made the man and woman and told them to “replenish” the earth. Replenish means “fill again that which has become void.” Were they the “first creations of mankind? Did God harvest and earlier creation of mankind? And how long after He rested did he make Adam? And how long was Adam “lonely” after he was placed in the garden? Who were the people that Cain was afraid of that were already mining gold and precious stones? If we want to understand the things of God then we must learn to think BIGGER.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day the earth was created without any dry land, no light, no trees, plants, animals, fish or birds. As the six days unfolded, God illuminated, separated land and sea, created trees and plants, sin moon and stars, first, birds, land animals and man.

Would you question why a painter would be on with a blank canvas? Would you question why a potter would begin with a shapeless lump of clay? Of course you wouldn’t. So why question why God started with a formless, void earth.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I have toyed with this idea. But the earth was covered in water at the end of the last ice age. Gap Theory then fits into this.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day flat earth is usually a faulty interpretation of the Hebrew ideas in Genesis that describe the earth.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Verse 2 however is not part of the 7 days of creation. It is important to notice that each of the 7 days begin with the statement “And God said.” The 1st day of creation begins in verse 3. What is described in verse 2 was already there before the start of the creation story in verse 3.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Derek Godfrey yes we all know you believe in flat earth Hebrew ideas
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Derek Godfrey gap theory doesn’t fit because earth, heaven, sea and everything within them was created during the six days of creation. See Exodus 20:11. Before the six days there was no heaven and no earth.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey so you are flat earther now too? sorry didnt know
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey of course gap theory fits. Everything was covered in water between 1:1 and 1:2. Then God receded the water to form land.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Derek Godfrey the heaven, and earth, and sea and everything in them were made IN six days, not BEFORE six days.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Derek Godfrey Gary Micheal Epping Heres the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scritpures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah’s flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

God told Adam and Eve to “REPLENISH THE EARTH,
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Gary Micheal Epping there is MORE not part of the creation of the Adamic world but it really takes some reading of GENESIS to find it

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

I have a Question how did God heal me of diabetes kidney failure and Alpha Covid 19 all at the same time in 2020 in frount of 21 doctors at CMC ?

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Jeremiah Boseman “How” is easy. “Why?” is the interesting question.
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Ken Van Horn Because I’m His servant
Reply November 20, 2023
Anonymous

Jeremiah Boseman WHAT is also medically important off topic
Reply November 21, 2023
Anonymous

Jeremiah Boseman Because it increases your reward according to John 15. It is the same reason others are not healed.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

It’s wild to be tagged in this, reason being, I’m part of a small group of people from my area that get together every Monday and we have Bible study.
We went back to the beginning, back to Genesis 1:1
Crazy the things that you can discover that’s not taught or preached via traditional gospel.

We’re discussing the “gap theory”, among other things
About how much much time is between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2
About the lucifer flood
About rather than we’re people before Adam and Eve
About what was the light before the morning and night was created.
About if earth is flat or round.
About the firmament
Really just everything that is being discussed here

Patty Proffitt Morgan
Judy Mullens
Allie Mullens
Garrett Mullens

Looks like we’re not the only one’s on this topic

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Shawn Bowman You are on target. Do not stop your studies for anything. A day is to God as is 1000 years for mankind. Cain was deathly afraid of the man and woman of the sixth day but eventually married one of them. At the time of Cain’s expulsion from the linage of Adam, the descendants of the man and woman of the sixth day were already hording and mining gold and precious stones. How long was Adam lonely before God made a help mate for him? How long was Adam and Eve in the garden before their expulsion…………………….And in your studies consider these Bible facts; OUTER DARKNESS is the era of great tribulations, a place without the LIGHT of the world (John 8:12) ….There will be TWO gatherings of mankind, one before Great Tribulation and one at mid-tribulation. First by Son of Man before His marriage (coronation – Mat.24:30). The second at mid-tribulation after He has been crowned King (Rev.14:14). Before great tribulation begins, the Son of Man will gather Christians and leave unbelievers and lukewarm Christians behind in the era He identified as OUTER DARKNESS (a place without the light of the world – John 8:12). A place such great tribulations (trials) as has never been nor ever will be again. However, at the appearance of His SIGN; every eye will see, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. But, because they have been left behind (cast) into outer darkness, they will have to wait 1335 days (Dan.12:12) while suffering the horrors of Satan for Son of Man to return from His wedding (Luke 12:36). Then as a newly married and “crowned” King (who still looks like Son of Man – Rev.14:14), He will return from His wedding (Luke 12:36) at mid-tribulation (Day 1335) to harvest those who were converted by His SIGN and have been faithful to Him unto to their deaths (Rev.2:10). The faithful will be those who have not taken Satan’s mark (Rev.14:11) and have waited 1335 days (Dan.12:12) for the newly crowned King to return from His wedding (Luke 12:36). Then, after the mid-tribulation harvest, the wrath of God (Rev.14:9-11) will fall upon those who have taken Satan’s mark and worshipped the image of the beast (Rev.16:1-2). Then upon a planet (Earth) that has been cleansed of all evil, King Jesus will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years …then after this, judgment.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Interesting. However, I think there is a gap, but it is a gap in God’s revelation to us. As for the sin in angels, we may struggle to find an answer in the Bible but maybe it isn’t there. For example, the book of Revelation may be used to deduce certain things, but they will remain speculative. So, are the imprisoned angels included in the one-third of the angels? Anyway, beyond revelation, I suspect we will be wondering why anything is as it is. I don’t understand why mosquitoes exist. By the other side, I am not sure what is the question about two creation-flood narratives. At least, I find unconvincing the secular ideological assessment of these passages (documentary hypothesis, tradition theory or whatever). No one in the real world accepts literary criticism as fact and as history except in theology. As for dinosaurs, we are told that more than a thousand species have disappeared since the 16th century. So, no need for millions of years nor for a Mexican meteor. I don’t know the date of earth, but written history began around the 4th or 5th millennium before Christ. There were no evangelical committees for deciding about writing, then, hence modern human being must has come to exist near that time and quickly began to write.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

All unproductive speculations !

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence and yet neither you nor Michael Chauncey Brett Dobbs can explain ANY of the 10 without gap theory 🙂
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I already did
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day 1. Where lost souls come from?
Meaning souls who aren’t saved? Wicked souls who didn’t have faith in God.
2. Where the demons come from?
Nephilim
3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
He hasn’t fell completely yet, he still has access.
4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
Many angels left their first estate took for them human wives. Gen 6.
5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? It doesn’t. It’s two perspectives of the same.
6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? It wasn’t, the was without form and void because it hadn’t been formed yet.
7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? It doesn’t.
8. Age of earth? Almost 6,000 years old. Though it may appear to be older. God created Adam to be the age of an adult. So though when Adam was only 1 day old, he was a full grown man.
9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why were no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
Dinosaurs went in the flood. To big to fit on the Ark. But small dinosaurs did go on the ark. Reptiles.
10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Sin did not exist in man, and there was no curse of sin and death until Adam sinned and it’s passed down through the males seed. See Rom 5.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Do y’all know the heavens above weren’t always dark and black?

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬
[28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Something happened, and it is in this black night sky we see the aftermath of an event that caused it. Remember that God put the stars in this dark sky before Adam was made, which shows proof that satan’s fall caused the darkness in the heavens.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:14‭-‬18‬ ‭KJV‬‬
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [15] and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [18] and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

All this happened before Adam.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Darnell Henson Jr. listen here friend Link knows things about theology none of us knows He learned them without being affiliated with any church or even being recognized as minister by any church organization. It’s like a Messianic syndrome of some rare non-Biblical source and fashion !
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I was ordained I’m a local congregation.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

The lights inside the firmament are not outside of the firmament which declares that all planets and the sun and moon and stars are inside the firmament outside the firmament is nothing but water

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Bobby Moore I read they saw some evidence of water on the observable edge of the universe
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

God opened the flood Gates of heaven than that can only mean we are in a bubble and I’ve read they are trying to penetrate the firmament with nuclear weapons and cannot penetrate it back when the movie men in black they show a Earth type ball and will smith touches it with his finger and water came through like the flood of the Earth movies I believe share secrets at times of our universe some believe the sun and moon to be like think three thousand miles away from earth in our firmament
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Bobby Moore yes Link may have seen them on the internet one time
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Bobby Moore flood Gates of heaven is a mystery but even Philip Williams will tell you water emerged from earth in the flood for there was NO rain

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Is there evidence that the dragon bringing down a third of the stars occurred in the past? That is in Revelation. Does this traditional interpretation come from an eschatological system that none of us believe in when it comes to the rest of the Book of Revelation?

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson In Luke 10:18 Jesus says, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” This is in the past not future.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Gary Micheal Epping does not mention one this of the stars though.

Are the stars up there sentient? The sun rules. I read a science article that theories based on some evidence that stars might give off some gas to stay on course. Stars seem to be associated with angelic-type beings in some scriptures or at least that’s how its interpreted.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson who is none of you – you and the frog in your pocket?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson your inability to look into the actual Biblical text without the glasses of your non-Pentecostals interpretation is astonishing! We commend you!
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day does anyone on this forum apply the same hermeneutical method to other parts of Revelation or set it way in the past.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson no it does not – there is division among postribbers HOW to fit the DAYS of Noah in post trib – it doesnt fit Philip Williams Oscar Valdez
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson HOW would you know a Pentecostal hermeneutical method from a non-Pentecostal? Where did you study hermeneutical methodS? 🙂
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I can read.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson you can read what? Can I become an expert in your area of expertise just by reading stuff on the internet? Would any one in your professional community trust me as an expert just because I say I am one – do I need any professional evaluation, publications, accreditation ?

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

God told John to write what WAS and is to come.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Link Hudson Neil Steven Lawrence Derek Godfrey
WHO did lucifer rule over?

Genesis i:1, “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth!” God does nothing imperfect. The Earth was in a perfect state and Lucifer ruled the Earth in harmony with God for an unknown period, “Until Iniquity was found in him.

Scriptures show that originally, Long before Adam and Eve were created, God created the Earth and placed Lucifer as ruler of the society there.

God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before “Iniquity was found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfect created angelic arc angel; “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God’s angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth’s crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is simple for most men to understand, so they reject it. Especially the churches for some reason. I have never heard a priest or pastor talk about these things until I found a book called, “God’s Plan For Man, by Finis Jennings Dake.”

2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:

But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

This is where people become confused and say the world “that then was,” was the world before Noah’s flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS” is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW” since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world “THAT THEN WAS PERISHED” and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah’s flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah’s flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth “that then was” (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah’s flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah’s flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call “the gap theory.” Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so “If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant,” as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day the bible says he was anointed to cover not to rule. Dominion was given to Adam not Lucifer.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth “that then was” (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah’s flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah’s flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call “the gap theory.” Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so “If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant,” as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey not really true now
Dominion was given to Adam AFTER Adam was created
Who was Dominion was given before Adam was created ?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day The first mention of dominion over creation was given to Adam. God had sole dominion on the first five days.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day wrong, modern skeptics and scoffers mock Noah’s flood not the made up gap theory flood. The only flood Peter mentioned was Noah’s flood.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day where does the Bible call the Devil Lucifer, instead of using poetic language about a human King when it mentions Lucifer in that Passage.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson so you do not believe Lucifer is the Devil?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Link Hudson Philip Williams Heres the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scritpures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah’s flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah’s flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

God told Adam and Eve to “REPLENISH THE EARTH,
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day there is Zero indication that earth was laid waste in Genesis 1:2.
In Jeremiah 4:23 God warned that Judah would be judged so severely that it would become as void and empty as at creation. This was fulfilled when Nebuchadnezzar invaded during the reign of Zedechiah. Of, course, it was a hyperbole. The land still had a remnant of people and small villages. Jeremiah loved there at that time.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day so, why didn’t he wipe out Lucifer in LF?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams shouldnt you simply ask GOD about this one ?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day he says he doesn’t know anything about LF.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams The Bible shows that we have a free will and are capable of repenting of our sins and to receive Christ as Lord and Savior…(For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.)
Some teach that you must sit around and wait to be picked for salvation by God…and if not, you’re toast….with no chance at redemption. But the Bible says: The grace of God has appeared for salvation to ALL men. Titus 2:11

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

That was Finnis Dake taught. Even a pre-Adamic race!

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Larry Ray Talley no NOT really – article written by theologians
pre-Adamic race is NOT just by Finnis Dake
what else you got on this one?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day it’s been awhile, but I recall the theory that there was an eon between Gen 1:1 & Gen 1:2. During which ther we was another creation, early man, leviathan, & plants from which came the fossils we have today. It was destroyed by a flood, but no ancient Noah. I suppose that is the Gaop theory to which you refer. I find it very interesting, but nothing to do with the Gospel or my salvation.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Larry Ray Talley yes – DAKE Did not discover this one in any way

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark? you will struggle to explain without it Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey Link Hudson

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day There definitely were dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark, except they were called Dragons (Dinosaur is a modern word coined in the mid 1800s). Behemoth and Leviathan are examples of Dinos that took a ride on the ark.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey right right 🙂 but they were in eggs right 🙂 and Philip Williams found none such eggs on the ark when he found it SO the whole story with eggs on the KY boat is NOT from the BIBLE – also there were no noah chambers and family chambers @ the boat’s top penthouse level 🙂 There are multiple tools shown in KY that did NOT exist during Noah like circular saws 🙂 Billy Monroe Poff can tell ya about them tools – BUT I would like to see Link explaining and believing how “Behemoth and Leviathan are examples of Dinos that took a ride on the ark.” THE VERY reason the flood came was to destroy any such gigantic deviation from God’s green earth. If they have existed on earth since NOAH their count and heavy weight would have change earth’s trajectory long time ago and send us into another ICE AGE – like in the movies 🙂
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Noah’s flood wiped out most of the “terrible lizards” (Dinosaur). There is plenty of fossil locations in North America where they are piled up by the 10,000’s in very tight quarters and covered by large layers of sediment almost instantly–proving the world-wide flood. Sea dwelling dinos survived the deluge; a few dino eggs probably made it on the Ark. The Answer’s in Genesis people only insist “representatives” were saved by Noah. Plenty of dino “organic material” (DNA, blood, ligaments, soft tissue–all of which should have rotted) has been un-earthed proving they were on the earth up to the flood period and didn’t die off millions of years ago–as secular evolutionary kooks try to propagandize. Heck, I grew up with little dinos in my back yard near the everglades in S. Miami.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=6952297124851774&set=p.6952297124851774&type=3
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day God used Behemoth and Leviathan in his conversation with Job because Job was familiar with these great creatures. Job lived after the flood.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey EVEN if Job was familiar with Behemoth and Leviathan this in NO way proves they were dinos 🙂 NO where in the BIBLE says that Job or ANYone else saw dinos – word NOT in the BIBLE John Mushenhouse
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence no such proof in the BIBLE as Philip Williams can tell you and he has been on Noahs boats and took selfies too
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence but where are the humans for which God sent the Flood?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams small bones, deteriorate quicker and at the time there were not many people —but only a few million. In fact for most of human history mankind never went over 100 million until the 1700s.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day a dragon with a tail like cedar tree. What, other than a dinosaur could it be?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence human bones are harder than dinosaur bones. But what about their houses, weapons, artifacts, jewelry, and pottery. The Lord commanded men to fill the earth. The Scripture says that the earth was filled with violence. How do you know that there were only a few million people?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey I hear you saying it
I dont see you proving it with the BIBLE
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Are human bones the same “strength” as other animals bones if they are the same weight/size?
There is a range of bone strength among different animals, and multiple metrics for assessing bone strength.

There is no evidence to suggest that humans are anything other than average in this case
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams
The starting point was only two people.
In 1000 years when the flood occurred it did not give much time to start from such a small number to reach more than a few million.
Furthermore, there was so much violence that many people were being slaughtered.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day read the description of Behemoth. It could be nothing but a sauropod dinosaur.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence the Flood occurred more than 1500 years after Adam, time enough for hundred of millions of people. But even if there were only a few million people, we should find millions buried with their houses, pottery, manufactures, weapons, walled cities, ornaments, stone and ceramic pots. Where are these?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams
There are so many ruins on the Earth, and so many burial, chambers and graves – I am not an expert, nor an archaeologists —but a lifetime of study, which includes looking at these things I have put into it, cannot allow me to speculate any further.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence indeed there are. But only one person has identified those belonging to those who perished in the Flood. That’s why Norm Geisler backed my explanation of the Flood, the only explanation he ever did back with his name and scholarship.

Having the only archaeological explanation of the Flood explains why I was able to trace the nations back to the Ark, which I also visited. This was also the only claim for the remains of the Ark that Norm backed. He made that claim on FOX News. Why aren’t you aware of this?
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I don’t think male and female eggs could walk on the ark. Little ones might have.

Where does the Bible say larger animals were excluded from the ark.
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams do you have any information including the video from Fox News. I would like to watch and look at it.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson little you know about anything BIBLE related – you should ask Philip Williams about them eggs placed on show in KY fake boat
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams tell Neil Steven Lawrence Link Hudson how the dino eggs Michael Chauncey saw with Noah walked on the boat – rolled ?
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Eggs didn’t walk. The average size of a young dragon was smaller than a sheep 🐑
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Wheel-barrow from Lowes!
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence I think the FOX News Lauren Green’s interview of Norm and me is now in archive. But the book I wrote that Norm endorsed and the second book I wrote at the encouragement of Norm is available on Amazon.

Ancient Light from this Mountain: A book that will change the world! https://a.co/d/90J2F9j

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

FINALLY Duane L Burgess Michael Chauncey Neil Steven Lawrence 10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? – – – when did SIN come into the WORLD?

Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day
Fallen Satan, tempted Eve and Adam. They sinned and brought sin into the world.

In the process, Satan usurped power from mankind to become ruler of the world system, not ruler of the creation, which only belongs to God and not ruler of the earth which is given to man as regent – but Satan‘s rulership is only over the “world system.” (Babylon)

Satan had no power over the world system until man surrender it to him. Therefore, his sin could not have influenced the creation to be in a fallen state, unless man open the door to it.

Whether Satan fell before or after mankind was created is irrelevant. The important issue is what brought sin into the creation — the Bible is clear that mankind brought sin into the creation.

The implication is that Satan and his fallen minions must’ve been quarantined in another dimension until he could break out by deceiving man. Even now some of those demons are “Kept in chains of darkness for the judgment” (Jude 6) (most likely in another dimension) because they are too unruly to live by the limitations Yahweh their master has put on them.

As Martin Luther, the great reformer said, “the devil is God’s devil!“

(We don’t need to import a false theory of pre-Adamic race to understand these mysteries. I have now just disproven two of your 10 points, including the one on the flood/dinosaurs above.)
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Neil Steven Lawrence Fallen Satan WHEN ? precisely
The BIBLE teaches it was before Gen 1:2
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day
The heavenly war, where, 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven (Rev.12:4), could’ve taken place AFTER the entire creation was made, including the creation of Adam and Eve. I would almost insist that it did.

Maybe Lucifer was even jealous of mankind, who was made more complex than even the angels —having a tripart nature whereas the angels only had the spirit nature.

Either way the entire creation was declared by God as “very good“ (Gen.1:31). Meaning that everything, including the angelic realm was in a new and pristine state before the fall of man. There’s no debate about that, the language is clear.

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Gary Micheal Epping the whole 10 points as easy as they sound you explain away but do not debunk with the BIBLE You can borrow some Noah evolution from Philip Williams but even that will not help -= SO far no one can explain 10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? except with the fall of satan before Adam was ever created Good luck to yall with post-trib rapture

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I answered all ten and I preach pre-trib rapture.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day #10 I also answered above. We don’t need pre-Adamic Troglodytes to figure it out.

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

hey Michael Chauncey pls dont copy this good discussion to other threads – it is hard to follow IF you have ANY Biblical arguments pls post here
So far from the 10 I offered you could not answer to any of them
I would be happy to respond to your Biblical response if you have any THANKS

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I already answered all ten.
You just don’t like the answers.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey well you did NOT answer them with the BIBLE
Yet I answered your answers and show how unBiblical they are
Guess you did not like how I debunked your so called “answers”
I will let you believe how the dino eggs walked on the boat…
anything else you got to offer @ this time ?
BTW your so called answers affirmed Link Hudson in pre-trib
YouD note that Philip Williams who claims finding NOAH stopped commenting cause he knows better there were no dinos on the ark HE didnt find any therefore there were NO dinos on the ark AND also means Noah was symbol of pre-trib rapture with wicked left behind
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Besides my goofy gap theory post is a year old. I simply reposted it.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey goofy gap theory post? do tell more and all about it 🙂
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I already answered about walking eggs. That was your idea not mine. The dragons on the Ark were probably juvenile, not 80 feet long.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey I agree the KY ark is WAY too big and tall Philip Williams it was Link Hudson who called them walking eggs

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day biblical answers

1. Where do lost souls come from?
Romans 5:12 Through one man’s disobedience sin ENTERED the world and death by sin.

2. Where the demons come from?
Luke 10:19 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Revelation 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth.

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
In Genesis 1:31 Everything in heaven and everything in earth was very good. That means even Lucifer and all the angels were good.

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

They were deceived by Lucifer. (Drawn by his dragon-like tail) Revelation 12:4

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

The Bible Does Not tell two creation accounts Genesis 1 & 2 tell the same account. Genesis 1 giving a day by day account of the creation of the entire universe, Genesis 2 giving specific details about the events in Eden on day six.

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

The earth only began formless and void on day one and took shape over the Six creative days see Genesis 1:1-31

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

The Bible only tells of one global flood narrative Genesis 6-9.

8. Age of earth?

Counting from Adam to Noah to Abraham To Christ the Bible teaches the earth is around 6,000 years old. Genesis 5 & Genesis 11

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?

The word dinosaur is a recent invention. The Bible calls them dragons. They are mentioned by name; Behemoth and Leviathan Job 40 & 41

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Romans 5:12
By one man’s disobedience sin entered the world and death by sin.

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey 1 you answer about sin not about lost souls
2. you answer about satan and stars – not demons You are not using BIBLE to answer

3. Genesis 1:31 speaks not a word about Satan – in fact it says 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. You are not using BIBLE to answer – the BIBLE says nothing of what you said in 1:31

4. I will take 4 as OK but you dont tell us WHEN Gen 1 31 speaks nothing about it You are not using BIBLE to answer !

5. this is YOUR opinion only – You are not using BIBLE to answer ! Genesis does tell us 2 stories in 2 dif. ways – you can argue about 2nd story IF you understand the first one

6. Genesis 1:31 is wrong quote – earth was shapeless and void in gen 1:2 You are not using BIBLE to answer 1:31 says nothing about what you are saying

7. you are incorrect on this one – there is ANOTHER flood mentioned 🙂 You are not using BIBLE to answer

8. Bible does NOT teach the earth is around 6,000 years old; though it may be so there is NO Biblical reference you can quote to that; you may refer to Jewish tradition but the BIBLE mentions NO 6 thousands years neither it teaches it AGAIN You are not using BIBLE to answer

9. The Bible does NOT call them dragons. You gonna have to PROVE Behemoth and Leviathan Job 40 & 41 are dinos – this is a FREE private interpretation at best. From science do you even knw if dinos were mammals? The BIBLE does not declare none of which you stated You are not using BIBLE to answer !

10. you are saying that sin entered VIA Adam, but you are not explaining HOW sin entered the creation prior to adams world to be able to enter adams world as you stated. Again, you are arguing pre-trib which I am not here We can have another post on pre-trib I am simply stating you cannot explain the above 10 from the BIBLE without pre-trib and we see you have not been able to You are not using BIBLE to answer !

Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Michael Chauncey Philip Williams Neil Steven Lawrence Gary Micheal Epping
WHEN all is said and done about Noah laying walking dino eggs on his boat
you still need to show
WHEN in time Satan was fallen on earth or in the air
WHEN and how original sin came to be SO it could enter in the world via ADAM
Reply February 29, 2024
Troy Day

there @ least 10 things Susan Daniels cant prove without GAP theory for our @followers James Philemon Bowers many ol boys like Philip Williams Peter Vandever Peter VK Link Hudson Pete Fiske Tom Steele have tried with NO luck and failed John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence and myself would watch them do it again and may be Junior Beasley will be finally pleased https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/10-things-in-the-bible-that-cannot-be-explained-without-the-pre-adamic-race-gap-theory/
Reply February 29, 2024
Troy Day

Oscar Valdez read in the OTHER group the comments by James Philemon Bowers I guarantee you he knows what dispensationalism is all about! NOW how did you figure what Susan Daniels knows or dont know from 1 paragraph – wouldnt it be quite presumptuous oh your part to do so ? Thi is like Philip Williams finding NOAHs boat with NO gap

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